 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
Forums - Music techology
Subject: Dance music in 2008
Original Message 1/15 02-Feb-08 @ 09:35 AM Edit: 02-Feb-08 | 10:04 AM - Dance music in 2008
Not trying to start any negative conversation here, but this is an honest question I have. I used to listen to a lot of electronic music (anything form gabber to ambient) from the years 1993-2001 and most of the dance/electronic music I hear now still sounds the same, but only has new ways to chop, distort, or glitch out the sounds. It seems that everything is still in four on the floor whether it be breaks, downtempo, house, or whatever. Yes, I do realize that club music should remain fairly regular to dance to and/ or mix, etc.
Now, I do realize that there are many, many, many different categories/ genres that one can place each little niche type of electronic music into (I'm talking in generalities here), but it seems (all too common) like there's only a two-part counterpoint happening in songs between the melody and the bassline and a pad (or something similar) doubling the bass or the melody in octaves (*maybe* in diminution or augmentation, or exactly the same) and the beats/ percussion/ glitches are taking center stage with, for example, the loop being filtered by a HP filter as the only means for variation and variety. I used to think that Aphex Twin, Square Pusher, Fila Brazillia, Thievery Corporation, or someone similar would bleed into the other types of electronic music, but six to seven later and the material I hear now could've been a track made in '98 or '99.
Aphex Twin, Squarepusher had harmony and functional chromaticism, progressions, and yes, a lot of micro-sequencing and granular synthesis also. My point is that they had melodies that could be remembered and they modulated to other keys and dare I say it- used music theory. I know how a lot of you feel about music theory and so-called "rules" of music, but music theory isn't dogmatic or supposed to be followed exactly, it's just suggestions that help when in a bind (anyone ever had writer's block?) and something to help generate new material.
I got out of listening to the entire electronic genre in about 2001, just to take a break and I listened to a TON of classical music (Western and Eastern) and studied theory. Unfortunately, I do have to say that the return to the genre(s) is an unexpected disappointment. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff (someone guide me if I am), but I wanted to know how you guys felt about it.
I also realize that a particular genre of music is going to sound like other artists in that genre, that is what makes it that genre, if it sounded like something different, it wouldn't be house, but breakcore. It bothers me when people who have *no idea* about music become critics and say things like "All house music sounds redundantly the same, how boring." That bothers me to no end, but there is evolution in music, is what I'm saying. Yes, classical music can be identified quickly be a listener, but Wagner sounds nothing like Bach, Vivaldi, or Mozart: evolution. For those savvy to classical, I know that there is a 200+ year difference between Mozart and Wagner, but you can even hear a clear distinction from Mozart's last year (1791) to Beethoven's material in 1800. They both used the same theory and language, but in that small amount of time evolution of music happened. You can hear the difference in the same genre of Classical music! Later, Wagner used a somewhat standardized language and pushed it and broke the tonal barrier: evolution. I guess what I'm not understanding/ hearing is this evolution, no?
Once again, I am not wanting to begin a "you're knocking my music/ genre/ life/ religion/ lifestyle/ breakfast cereal" type of conversation, let's be civil. Maybe I'm wrong and if so, please give me the scoop- this is exactly why I'm asking all of you wonderful people at DT. As Marvin Gaye said I just want to know "What's Goin' on?" - in music that is!
Best,
Capthook
Now, I do realize that there are many, many, many different categories/ genres that one can place each little niche type of electronic music into (I'm talking in generalities here), but it seems (all too common) like there's only a two-part counterpoint happening in songs between the melody and the bassline and a pad (or something similar) doubling the bass or the melody in octaves (*maybe* in diminution or augmentation, or exactly the same) and the beats/ percussion/ glitches are taking center stage with, for example, the loop being filtered by a HP filter as the only means for variation and variety. I used to think that Aphex Twin, Square Pusher, Fila Brazillia, Thievery Corporation, or someone similar would bleed into the other types of electronic music, but six to seven later and the material I hear now could've been a track made in '98 or '99.
Aphex Twin, Squarepusher had harmony and functional chromaticism, progressions, and yes, a lot of micro-sequencing and granular synthesis also. My point is that they had melodies that could be remembered and they modulated to other keys and dare I say it- used music theory. I know how a lot of you feel about music theory and so-called "rules" of music, but music theory isn't dogmatic or supposed to be followed exactly, it's just suggestions that help when in a bind (anyone ever had writer's block?) and something to help generate new material.
I got out of listening to the entire electronic genre in about 2001, just to take a break and I listened to a TON of classical music (Western and Eastern) and studied theory. Unfortunately, I do have to say that the return to the genre(s) is an unexpected disappointment. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff (someone guide me if I am), but I wanted to know how you guys felt about it.
I also realize that a particular genre of music is going to sound like other artists in that genre, that is what makes it that genre, if it sounded like something different, it wouldn't be house, but breakcore. It bothers me when people who have *no idea* about music become critics and say things like "All house music sounds redundantly the same, how boring." That bothers me to no end, but there is evolution in music, is what I'm saying. Yes, classical music can be identified quickly be a listener, but Wagner sounds nothing like Bach, Vivaldi, or Mozart: evolution. For those savvy to classical, I know that there is a 200+ year difference between Mozart and Wagner, but you can even hear a clear distinction from Mozart's last year (1791) to Beethoven's material in 1800. They both used the same theory and language, but in that small amount of time evolution of music happened. You can hear the difference in the same genre of Classical music! Later, Wagner used a somewhat standardized language and pushed it and broke the tonal barrier: evolution. I guess what I'm not understanding/ hearing is this evolution, no?
Once again, I am not wanting to begin a "you're knocking my music/ genre/ life/ religion/ lifestyle/ breakfast cereal" type of conversation, let's be civil. Maybe I'm wrong and if so, please give me the scoop- this is exactly why I'm asking all of you wonderful people at DT. As Marvin Gaye said I just want to know "What's Goin' on?" - in music that is!
Best,
Capthook
Message 2/15 02-Feb-08 @ 10:50 AM - RE: Dance music in 2008
hmm.. i'd have to digest this , but one thought springs to mind - people create a sound by just experimenting, and then that gets known, and then companies make s/w that does that effect
mebbe? in simplistic terms i mean.
The www has exploded with musical tech resources since back when there was dt, sonic state and harmony central, plus a collecton of dedicated subject homepages... but in all that explosion it seems to be dominated by the equipment itself. In that respect compressor questions increasingly get answered with 'but this or try that'... a purchasing solution. There is little discussion of creativity on music tech forums, but then i guess they are music 'tech' forums but that should, one would've thought, include discussion about creativity.
perhaps there's less creativity because there's a s/w or hardware tool for everything almost you want to do that you've heard.
perhaps it cos modern generations are progressivly less creative? perhaps it's cos we dont get out enuff & actualy is out there?
no really.. I think the reason is, that people see dance music as music.. it is approached from a musical point of view (scales/ chords etc) but that aspect of it should be kept well in it's place. I dont think you can look at dance music in the same terms as other 'music'.. you can make dance music without any melody at all
mebbe? in simplistic terms i mean.
The www has exploded with musical tech resources since back when there was dt, sonic state and harmony central, plus a collecton of dedicated subject homepages... but in all that explosion it seems to be dominated by the equipment itself. In that respect compressor questions increasingly get answered with 'but this or try that'... a purchasing solution. There is little discussion of creativity on music tech forums, but then i guess they are music 'tech' forums but that should, one would've thought, include discussion about creativity.
perhaps there's less creativity because there's a s/w or hardware tool for everything almost you want to do that you've heard.
perhaps it cos modern generations are progressivly less creative? perhaps it's cos we dont get out enuff & actualy is out there?
no really.. I think the reason is, that people see dance music as music.. it is approached from a musical point of view (scales/ chords etc) but that aspect of it should be kept well in it's place. I dont think you can look at dance music in the same terms as other 'music'.. you can make dance music without any melody at all
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 3/15 02-Feb-08 @ 11:43 AM - RE: Dance music in 2008
K,
You're right about this being a tech forum. I, for some reason, always thought of discussing all that deals with music including theory, harmony, or whathaveyou here. I knew that people talked about tech stuff (including myself), but when I first discovered DT, way back when, I always saw this forum as a general electronic music discussion forum. I feel sheepish admitting that, but you're exactly right! In my eyes, music loosely defined is organized sound that attempts to convey a message, emotion, or idea with the use of rhythm, harmony, texture and color.
About Native Instruments and the software gang jumping on every new development in electronic music- I really dislike this idea and it sucks out all of the mystery and spontaneity that made that specific idea original in the first place. Using Aphex Twin again for example, when he was doing the early micro-sequencing and such, it was new and took time to edit all those cuts, chops, and glitches. Now, I wouldn't doubt if there's a plug-in that has an "Aphex Twin" knob/ button on it. Yes sir folks, you too can now sound like Aphex Twin or [insert favorite artist] in one button click or virtual know tweak- no work or creativity required... just have the cash or mastah-crack know-how! One good thing about this "instant contemporary style" situation, is how people will use that button/ knob in ways that it isn't intended for- yet the next NI plug-in! It seems to me that we, the producers/composers are NI's unpaid creative team and they just wait for the next trend and write the code and BOOYAH, show me the money!
over and out
capthook
You're right about this being a tech forum. I, for some reason, always thought of discussing all that deals with music including theory, harmony, or whathaveyou here. I knew that people talked about tech stuff (including myself), but when I first discovered DT, way back when, I always saw this forum as a general electronic music discussion forum. I feel sheepish admitting that, but you're exactly right! In my eyes, music loosely defined is organized sound that attempts to convey a message, emotion, or idea with the use of rhythm, harmony, texture and color.
About Native Instruments and the software gang jumping on every new development in electronic music- I really dislike this idea and it sucks out all of the mystery and spontaneity that made that specific idea original in the first place. Using Aphex Twin again for example, when he was doing the early micro-sequencing and such, it was new and took time to edit all those cuts, chops, and glitches. Now, I wouldn't doubt if there's a plug-in that has an "Aphex Twin" knob/ button on it. Yes sir folks, you too can now sound like Aphex Twin or [insert favorite artist] in one button click or virtual know tweak- no work or creativity required... just have the cash or mastah-crack know-how! One good thing about this "instant contemporary style" situation, is how people will use that button/ knob in ways that it isn't intended for- yet the next NI plug-in! It seems to me that we, the producers/composers are NI's unpaid creative team and they just wait for the next trend and write the code and BOOYAH, show me the money!
over and out
capthook
Message 4/15 02-Feb-08 @ 07:13 PM - RE: Dance music in 2008
I wouldn't say it's the fault of the software companies, just look at Reaktor, Synthedit, or the modular synthesizers like u-he zebra... there is tons of pontential, much more than Aphex Twin ever had at that time, its just the stupid geezres who don't dare/bother to do more than browsing through presets... being innovative is easier that it was 5 or 10 years ago, the problem is that 90% of the people out there don't want to sound innvovative or be inventive at all, and mind you, with all these genres with strict rules and expectations on sound quality, it is very hard to get to the listeners when your stuff is not being played if it doesn't sound "proper"...
There is some good original tracks around, it is just harder to find.
There is some good original tracks around, it is just harder to find.
Message 5/15 03-Feb-08 @ 06:25 PM - RE: Dance music in 2008
so this is a tread about evolution, yes?
well in terms of musical theory, i always thought that electronic music was just a way to get away from all of that... new forms of expression etc, not limited to use of notes and measured by its harmonic complexity and whatnot. And aphex twin had melodies?
and in terms of laziness... sure, there is a preset box or a sample cd for much anything you want to do, so its easier than ever to be lazy and less motivation than ever for someone to try out something new. I mean, barely anyone gets into making music because they want to create something groundbreaking from scratch. They get into it because they want to create a certain style of music... and if its easy to do that, then why would you ever look elsewhere. You know how most really cool tricks were originally found by stumbling around? Well today theres much less stumbling to do with our new preset boxes! yay! And no, its not NI's fault... its the lazy end user at the controls
Anyway... last time i heard of a new sub-sub-genre was when i heard of Dubstep, and that was back in 2002! not to mention that its a pretty lame sub-genre at that.
And while on topic of quality... (shameless plug) i urge all of you to check out Burial if you already didnt. I know he is massively overhyped, and he is dubstep, but its still the freshest music i heard all year. Apparently he's some kid who pieces it all together in Soundforge from samples he collected around on his phone or from the net or whatever. Oh how his unquantized beats sound fresh to my ears... plus the music has some real 'air' & atmosphere around it. and his first album is my favorite (end shameless plug).
regards, M.
well in terms of musical theory, i always thought that electronic music was just a way to get away from all of that... new forms of expression etc, not limited to use of notes and measured by its harmonic complexity and whatnot. And aphex twin had melodies?
and in terms of laziness... sure, there is a preset box or a sample cd for much anything you want to do, so its easier than ever to be lazy and less motivation than ever for someone to try out something new. I mean, barely anyone gets into making music because they want to create something groundbreaking from scratch. They get into it because they want to create a certain style of music... and if its easy to do that, then why would you ever look elsewhere. You know how most really cool tricks were originally found by stumbling around? Well today theres much less stumbling to do with our new preset boxes! yay! And no, its not NI's fault... its the lazy end user at the controls
Anyway... last time i heard of a new sub-sub-genre was when i heard of Dubstep, and that was back in 2002! not to mention that its a pretty lame sub-genre at that.
And while on topic of quality... (shameless plug) i urge all of you to check out Burial if you already didnt. I know he is massively overhyped, and he is dubstep, but its still the freshest music i heard all year. Apparently he's some kid who pieces it all together in Soundforge from samples he collected around on his phone or from the net or whatever. Oh how his unquantized beats sound fresh to my ears... plus the music has some real 'air' & atmosphere around it. and his first album is my favorite (end shameless plug).
regards, M.
Message 6/15 03-Feb-08 @ 08:54 PM - RE: Dance music in 2008
Aphex Twin: "Boy/ Girl," "Vordhosbn," "Next Heap With," "Albert Balsalm," and many, many more of his songs actually DO HAVE melodies and - uh oh- harmony! He also uses, not in every track, but he uses traditional chord progressions yes, but I don't believe that he cannot be placed in the usual "paint-by-numbers" dance genre of producers/composers.
I do hear what you're saying about "if it's easy then why look elsewhere..." I just figured if everyone stayed on the easy road, then where would that get us? Probably with a genre that hasn't progressed much for several years, just my opinion. Maybe it's the uncomfortable challenge of doing something that causes a little discomfort due to increased complexity and/ or practice to push the boundaries a bit further. There are many people who do this and they usually end up as pioneers of whatever art they are making... breaking ground.
I'm also leaving out the fact that if it makes money then why change it, right? It's just sacrifices that I personally don't believe are justified for the sake of a monetary reward. The worst thing is that this compromised style of (enter popular genre here) will be emulated in beliefs that it is good. I know 'good' is an extremely subjective term and it is hard for any one person to say what is good music, but I believe that there are some unspoken standardized aspects of music that at least hold certain qualities to be called *music*. Not sure if I'm making sense here (extremely tired), but it is how I feel. Thank you for the responses on the subject. I need a nap!
capthook
I do hear what you're saying about "if it's easy then why look elsewhere..." I just figured if everyone stayed on the easy road, then where would that get us? Probably with a genre that hasn't progressed much for several years, just my opinion. Maybe it's the uncomfortable challenge of doing something that causes a little discomfort due to increased complexity and/ or practice to push the boundaries a bit further. There are many people who do this and they usually end up as pioneers of whatever art they are making... breaking ground.
I'm also leaving out the fact that if it makes money then why change it, right? It's just sacrifices that I personally don't believe are justified for the sake of a monetary reward. The worst thing is that this compromised style of (enter popular genre here) will be emulated in beliefs that it is good. I know 'good' is an extremely subjective term and it is hard for any one person to say what is good music, but I believe that there are some unspoken standardized aspects of music that at least hold certain qualities to be called *music*. Not sure if I'm making sense here (extremely tired), but it is how I feel. Thank you for the responses on the subject. I need a nap
!capthook
Message 7/15 04-Feb-08 @ 07:08 PM - RE: Dance music in 2008
well i pretty much agree with you on all counts.
except i thought this *is* the situation upon us, and the very topic of this discussion, no? maybe i also need rest.
quote
I just figured if everyone stayed on the easy road, then where would that get us? Probably with a genre that hasn't progressed much for several years
I just figured if everyone stayed on the easy road, then where would that get us? Probably with a genre that hasn't progressed much for several years
except i thought this *is* the situation upon us, and the very topic of this discussion, no? maybe i also need rest.
Message 8/15 04-Feb-08 @ 08:45 PM - RE: Dance music in 2008
Milan,
Yes sir! That is what I am saying. In your words "if its easy to do that {pertaining to a person's preferable style/ genre of production}, then why would you ever look elsewhere..." is the reason why I believe that I am (again my personal opinion) hearing music that sounds as if it could've been a shiny new release in '98.
The easy road, the path most taken, the path of least resistance- I thought dance music was about resistance and " that electronic music was just a way to get away from all of that {theory/ so-called rules}..." which means to me that it is something that should evolve and change for the sake of not becoming a musical norm, no? My point of this thread is to ask if anyone else feels as if the genre is stagnant and has been in this state for many years. Again, I thank you for your responses and I hope to see more soon.
best,
capthook
Yes sir! That is what I am saying. In your words "if its easy to do that {pertaining to a person's preferable style/ genre of production}, then why would you ever look elsewhere..." is the reason why I believe that I am (again my personal opinion) hearing music that sounds as if it could've been a shiny new release in '98.
The easy road, the path most taken, the path of least resistance- I thought dance music was about resistance and " that electronic music was just a way to get away from all of that {theory/ so-called rules}..." which means to me that it is something that should evolve and change for the sake of not becoming a musical norm, no? My point of this thread is to ask if anyone else feels as if the genre is stagnant and has been in this state for many years. Again, I thank you for your responses and I hope to see more soon.
best,
capthook
Message 9/15 05-Feb-08 @ 01:50 AM - RE: Dance music in 2008
but y'know the other way of lookin at it?... nowadays whatever you make almost, if it's danceable (or ambient) there's a sub-genre for it things have really widened out especialy with small labels able to dump tracks direct into download shops
things have really widened out especialy with small labels able to dump tracks direct into download shops
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Pages: 1 2
There are 15 total messages for this topic
Reply to Thread
You need to register/login to use the forum.
Click here to Signup or Login !
[you'll be brought right back to this point after signing up]
Back to Forum
