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Subject: Dance music in 2008


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Original Message                 Date: 02-Feb-08  @  09:35 AM     Edit: 02-Feb-08  |  10:04 AM   -   Dance music in 2008

capthook

Posts: 32

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Not trying to start any negative conversation here, but this is an honest question I have. I used to listen to a lot of electronic music (anything form gabber to ambient) from the years 1993-2001 and most of the dance/electronic music I hear now still sounds the same, but only has new ways to chop, distort, or glitch out the sounds. It seems that everything is still in four on the floor whether it be breaks, downtempo, house, or whatever. Yes, I do realize that club music should remain fairly regular to dance to and/ or mix, etc.

Now, I do realize that there are many, many, many different categories/ genres that one can place each little niche type of electronic music into (I'm talking in generalities here), but it seems (all too common) like there's only a two-part counterpoint happening in songs between the melody and the bassline and a pad (or something similar) doubling the bass or the melody in octaves (*maybe* in diminution or augmentation, or exactly the same) and the beats/ percussion/ glitches are taking center stage with, for example, the loop being filtered by a HP filter as the only means for variation and variety. I used to think that Aphex Twin, Square Pusher, Fila Brazillia, Thievery Corporation, or someone similar would bleed into the other types of electronic music, but six to seven later and the material I hear now could've been a track made in '98 or '99.

Aphex Twin, Squarepusher had harmony and functional chromaticism, progressions, and yes, a lot of micro-sequencing and granular synthesis also. My point is that they had melodies that could be remembered and they modulated to other keys and dare I say it- used music theory. I know how a lot of you feel about music theory and so-called "rules" of music, but music theory isn't dogmatic or supposed to be followed exactly, it's just suggestions that help when in a bind (anyone ever had writer's block?) and something to help generate new material.

I got out of listening to the entire electronic genre in about 2001, just to take a break and I listened to a TON of classical music (Western and Eastern) and studied theory. Unfortunately, I do have to say that the return to the genre(s) is an unexpected disappointment. Maybe I'm listening to the wrong stuff (someone guide me if I am), but I wanted to know how you guys felt about it.

I also realize that a particular genre of music is going to sound like other artists in that genre, that is what makes it that genre, if it sounded like something different, it wouldn't be house, but breakcore. It bothers me when people who have *no idea* about music become critics and say things like "All house music sounds redundantly the same, how boring." That bothers me to no end, but there is evolution in music, is what I'm saying. Yes, classical music can be identified quickly be a listener, but Wagner sounds nothing like Bach, Vivaldi, or Mozart: evolution. For those savvy to classical, I know that there is a 200+ year difference between Mozart and Wagner, but you can even hear a clear distinction from Mozart's last year (1791) to Beethoven's material in 1800. They both used the same theory and language, but in that small amount of time evolution of music happened. You can hear the difference in the same genre of Classical music! Later, Wagner used a somewhat standardized language and pushed it and broke the tonal barrier: evolution. I guess what I'm not understanding/ hearing is this evolution, no?

Once again, I am not wanting to begin a "you're knocking my music/ genre/ life/ religion/ lifestyle/ breakfast cereal" type of conversation, let's be civil. Maybe I'm wrong and if so, please give me the scoop- this is exactly why I'm asking all of you wonderful people at DT. As Marvin Gaye said I just want to know "What's Goin' on?" - in music that is!

Best,

Capthook




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Message 11/15             05-Feb-08  @  02:17 AM   -   RE: Dance music in 2008

k

Posts: 12353

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your up late

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 12/15             05-Feb-08  @  02:58 AM   -   RE: Dance music in 2008

k

Posts: 12353

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i dont actualy have a problem with generic or very fixed sounds and motifs in club music genres myself tho, although to some extent i think that's a perception once you step beyond the very broad basics of a genre. It's acceptable that a tight genre expects certain things and gets them, and that's fine by me, and making such music in itself does require skills even if people think otherwise... making such a track which also stands out is i think the 'extra-talent' factor (and possibly also some luck) and what dance music offers the 'composer i think more than onventional 'instruments' music in that way, is the opportunity for sound creation, meaning literaly 'sound' more than just 'synth-patch'.

i think noobs view it too much as "it uses keyboards so it is a synth thing"... the synth has keys, this suggests notation/melody/scales/etc, but it's that ability to do sound design i think people admire in a good track, and an element of dance is sound design which can be literaly anything... 'anything' once created can also be played in pattern, or mebbe the anything is itself a complete self contained pattern or movement of sorts.. a sequence of sounds which rhythmicaly fit somehow to enhance and feature. It's those touches i like combined with crafty actual 'notes' parts. i like alot of the music this site has seen cos back in the day alot of it when it started wasn't acceptable as 'dance music' and now is, some of the old odd stuff people added here back in the day might now sound quite 'in a genre', and really with dance there's all levels of 'qualty'... what troubles me if anything is that web forum authority figures (versed in classic angineering) might impose a notion that'll grow/spread due to free web info, so that an idea permiates that 'recording' has a standard. That's something i've personaly always been against, but forums do seem to pickup secondhand knowledge and re-issue it... so a pro says such and such on forum XX and it get's re-told on forum YY etc, and passes around something which may discourage noob experimentation and somehow disconnect newcomers from the early experiments with recording which can be later revisited for fun and wonder; replacing that wonder with frustration at not reaching a competitive standard mebbe?.

those engineers are seeing compressors from a point of view of their use in bespoke recording, often on vocals and traditional instruments... true, drums also, in which case gleaning this such info can be useful for ideas albeit they'll be unaffordable to most noobs, but a noob cant differatiate much, so they might perceive that a cheap compressor isnt of much use when it would sound nice and raw and griity on something in their music, and they can do the ubiquitous sidechaining etc. anyways we can use cheap gear mebbe more that others.

or mebbe all this is irrelevent cos everyone uses s/w, but still there's the whole issue of uber s/w synths and effects which can cost a huge amount. Your example therefore of the guy using soundforge is great, and i think it's true to say alot of jungle and early drun&bass breaks stuff was done in uk using a crack of SAW 4Track software, using audio files.. I aint coming down btw on 'notes/theory/modes/scales' etc Cap'n mate, i can get into it alot, i like all music, but it's funny how it goes, sometiems peopel get led to it; like in my son's quest for more samples for his grime/hiphop or whatever music, he's exploring all sorts of stuff and asking me for tons of suggestions outside of his 'comfort' genre's.. heh, so i sent him off to checkout zappa, heh, rats, weenie sandwich and weasles ;) i'll play him stuff and he'll be "omg! wats that track, rewind it play that part again!" heh

Anyways i do understand some peopel want to knock out songs at a quality they perceive of being acceptible based on their commercial listening choices, and what i love about dance music is how it can be of differing 'qualities' in terms of sounding polished and there's still a place for it if the sounds groove and arrangement are good, not lavish, just good which can also be sparse. anyways, there's some good stuff out there. I think the web has opened people up to new stuff mebbe a bit

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 13/15             05-Feb-08  @  03:03 AM   -   RE: Dance music in 2008

k

Posts: 12353

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also another point of discussion is that, as genres broaden out mebbe there's less need to forge a totaly new sound, it's more like genres are so overlapping now, i like the way genres can be crossed and lenments of each broght to others, hybrids and all that, some tracks are like "what is this?... tech, progressive funky electro dark electro house breaks!"

btw havwe u checked out this guy?

http://www.7161.com/artist.cfm?user=10569

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 14/15             07-Feb-08  @  05:42 AM   -   RE: Dance music in 2008

Musineer Productions

Posts: 332

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Hello,

I noticed this thread last visit but didn’t have time to respond. Now I do.

The first thought that sprang to mind concerned your definition of theory. Whilst I’d agree with you in part, I’d also raise the chicken & egg issue (or perhaps it’s manuscript & music here). I choose to believe that music pre-dates scoring; that someone writing down music for the first time had a tune in mind. I understand the earliest musical notation found to date was scribbled about 2,500 BCE, that’s about the time Stonehenge was constructed and I imagine the musical construction was roughly comparable in its apparent complexity. We’ve had Pythagoras and dissatisfied monks and a few others fiddle about with ways of recording (notating) music since then, culminating with what we collectively refer to as score music and Western Musical Theory. You mention an interest in Eastern music too, about which I know little other than that King Sejong of the Joseon Dynasty systematized Korean music in the 15th century, and Karnatic (sp?) scales are a bit of a bugger to understand.

My point is that the theory and notation attempts to record a musical event/experience. An original or ‘creative’ event should not be confined by the recorder’s ability to register it, nor should the event be constructed according to musical dogma. I appreciate that a musician does not need to play music on an instrument to know what it will sound like, just as someone who has written a letter does not need to read the text aloud to comprehend the words. But the words come from a desire to convey an idea, not from textbooks on grammar and the OED (used because words are more precise, if perhaps less powerful, than music).

I agree that theory is useful, but I feel that unless someone is making their living from writing music, such as turning out jingles, then if they have a ‘block’ it’s probably because they’ve nothing worth saying at the time. Using predetermined formulae to arrive at an innovative result is unlikely to produce much of value. It’s the source of banality.

For me, creative music is about expression. It’s trying to capture the essence of a mood, in sound, so that when I listen to the sound the mood can be recalled. There is only one prime question: ‘How to make audible that which is heard or felt within?’ With this thought, the craft of modern composing begins: choosing the appropriate instrumentation or sound source, setting up the desired mix, etc. Conscious theory should not feature.

The resulting audio should be a reflection or insight to the mentality of the composer, so if my mood is interesting and complex then the music should portray this, and if I’m feeling uncomplicated then the music should be simple. The distinctiveness of my sound should reflect my general individuality, as its depth should suggest mine. It’s pleasing when others recognise a personal feeling/mood from my sound — perhaps because music can communicate more evocatively than vocabulary and it’s satisfying to know that another mind feels as I do — but it is not the motivation behind creating the music. Much of the promoted music I hear is blatantly commercial, written by business people, not artists. Listening to some of the lyrics on the songs currently ‘hot’ on TV and radio gives an idea of the mental state of the composer. Is it any wonder that such sentiments accompany such music?

Now a philosophical point. I also believe that absolutely nothing is absolute; one reason being that we are limited by our human form and so by our nature cannot comprehend all that is. We can, however, explore the extremities of our confines. Relating this to the topic in discussion, I find it understandable that most music can be easily recorded on a piece of paper. But the recording (score) remains an analysis of the mechanics of the audio experience, and should not be mistaken as the foundation of the creative process. That so many of us seem to adhere to the principles of modern notation should not be surprising considering the similarities of our life experiences in our various dominant global cultures. 4/4 is an accessible rhythm that can be easily twisted and combined with other signatures to create an interesting amalgam of beats. It also lends itself well to conveying the general air of aggression and posturing that is necessary for most folk in order for them to survive in societies based on acquisition. It’s also easy to dance to.

I find it surprising that you feel there has been no ‘original’ or ‘new’ musical produce since the late 90s, especially so as you’re posting on a site containing some material that I find fresh and genuine. Perhaps you have been immersed in ‘old-instrument’ music too deeply. Some of us might appreciate that Debussy and Beethoven produced quite different music yet both were genuine explorers of the sonic thrill. To others however, they might both be classed as composers of ‘classical’ music. It’s a matter of what we are familiar with I think. I’ll confess here that I’m often unable to deduce why one tune belongs in a separate category to another. Many ‘genres’ could be lumped together in my opinion, but it could be I’m just missing something. I think of only three categories or genres: music to dance to; music to think to; and drivel (just plain bad or sound imitating music) — of which I make all three. Everything else is a sub genre.

Could it be that, as others have suggested, the evolution of music brought about by electronics was fundamental. Samplers and synths have given folk the chance to create music that is ‘unmanuscriptable’. But that is by the by. The unprecedented use of rich textural sounds in composition changes (or revamps) tired methods (such as using a VCO instead of a bit of cat gut to play the same melody) — does this create a new genre?

I agree with others that tweaking is part of getting precisely what you want, but I guess some just want a sound that fulfils a role, and presets are good at that. I remember first encountering Cubase and the brush tool and discovering those scuttly D’nB/house-style beats all by myself: just like thousands of others did! The Steinberg lot (may their gods protect them) could be argued to be some of the most creative people in the making of modern music. Or, when I bought my first sampler, being able to move on from a drum kit of a crash helmet and a nylon deck chair played live. The manufacturers of instruments do play a role, just as they have done for years.

There’s other issues, such as the defining of ‘music’ as opposed to sound, that could be taken up but my glass is empty and I ought to be alert for work tomorrow, or later on as it happens to be.

I’ve just remembered that I intended to include something about that squat looking little Welsh fellow who sang the Vincero ditty on X-factor or some such (I saw a clip on TV recently, though I think he was famous a year or two ago). Many of the crowd and one judge at least had tears in their eyes by the end of his rendition. I’ll freely admit to a bit of bobbing of my Adams apple too. To me it was a genuine bit of art, delivered by a bloke who felt the mood he was conveying. The TV prog then aired a critic who scoffed at the performance, dismissing the singer as ‘not an opera singer’ as he hadn’t been trained properly. What an arse. That was an example of a theorist who had forgotten (or more likely never understood) that about which he theorised. All the same, the tune wasn’t original, it was learnt, yet it was art.

In summation, I suggest we listen less for a musical construction that we haven’t heard before, and listen more for music that sounds as if the composer is genuine, or had experienced a personal, rather than learnt, emotion.

*This reply was written whilst listening to your tracks — which, incidentally, I thought were well done and highly creative — and drinking Balvenie Double Wood, which is also well made!



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Message 15/15             07-Feb-08  @  10:04 AM     Edit: 07-Feb-08  |  11:24 AM   -   RE: Dance music in 2008

capthook

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I dig what you're saying and I need a time where I can fully respond! I will respond soon though, thanks for the message though. I've been waking up lately at about 3:15 a.m. every morning and cannot go back to sleep!

Isn't 3:00a.m. when the demons come out to wreak havoc, the opposite of the holy trinity? Damn, I've been reading too many Clive Barker and Joe Hill novels- I'd hate to become a twisted version of Cervantes' Don Quixote and start to believe that my cats are demons from the cold blackened 9th circle of hell, crawling around in stop-motion time, broken-boned deformities from being a host of an entity too big to occupy a feline’s petite carcass. Hiding in unnatural shadows with blackened, bleeding eyes bestowed upon them by all that is evil, not of this world, but gifted to them from an eternity of the most atrocious and wicked souls of hell. Emanating a gut-wrenching stench of the foul rotted dead- waiting for their most opportune time to rape my soul from my very eternal mortal existence with the unheard snapping sounds of muscle being removed from bone- skin from the glistening, shiny fatty flesh that lies beneath!

My mortal tendons and ligaments being severed and gnawed, not fast, but as slow as time itself will permit in good faith of causing the worst, most horrendous pain ever felt by any living human on this damned earth. Severing every aching nerve- ending with the fastidious, calm, and unwavering precision of a surgeon in his prime! A meticulous scene of horror, a vulgar display of disgust, which will repeat as a blood-soaked loop as I lay flayed wide open, feeling the burning acid-breeze of hell pass over my raw and sensitive exposed innards. Feeling all that used lie neatly within spill out of the gory orifice that now occupies my irreversibly damaged naked torso, all that was warm and tender now as cold and hard as the frost ridden December wind.

Keeping my pain in a cold, frozen moment, forever trapped in a single suffocating grave that shall never pass, being stuck in eternal damnation with nobody to hear my plead for help but myself, deafened with bleeding ears that only ring with an agonizing cacophony of all of my worst memories ever experienced. My only sight will be full of images of all that I love in a death whirl of body parts and massacred connective tissue creating a perfect circle of filth and carnage! A pain so intense that I will feel what it is like to burn alive until the end of time itself! That may sting a bit!OK, yes, I have been reading too many horror novels, I admit it. Well, never did anything to deserve all that, but my cats are looking at me...

Is this off-topic in any way! Now, I'm going to try to sleep again



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