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Subject: Octopus envy


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Original Message 1/20             02-Jan-03  @  07:58 AM   -   Octopus envy

Kreature

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I'm trying to put together a solo live act. It's hard tribal stuff and incorporates much banging of various drums, control of FX, and sequencer jiggery-pokery. Problem is not enough arms.

Without resorting to complete sequencer automation ie. press play and drum along. What can I do / what sequencing advice does anyone have. Is it possible to use a midi keyboard to control on/off (punching) of sequencer channels, if so, result, 88 channel sequencer control. Yes I do intend to use a PC for live sequencing (and mixing with an outboard controler) unless anyone has any better ideas.

While I'm on the subject how the do people like Liam whatsisface (prodigy) and Leftfield do their live shows, please don't say they press play and fiddle with FX/levels.



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Message 2/20             02-Jan-03  @  09:18 AM   -   RE: Octopus envy

bedwyr

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"they press play and fiddle with FX/levels."



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Message 3/20             02-Jan-03  @  10:06 AM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Scott

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"Problem is not enough arms."

I feel ya, man. I have the same thought every time I try to visualize my future Live PA too. I think the challenge is to plan it out ahead of time, know your gear inside and out, practice makes perfect, and then lay everything out as ergonomically as possible so that what you need is close at hand. You might want to check out some past threads at www.livepa.org - it's only a few months old, but sneakthief, pongoid, and a few others have posted some of thier experiences with live shows.

"Is it possible to use a midi keyboard to control on/off (punching) of sequencer channels, if so, result, 88 channel sequencer control. Yes I do intend to use a PC for live sequencing (and mixing with an outboard controler) unless anyone has any better ideas."

Yes. Using a Windows PC, you could use Logic Touch Tracks, which they added in version 4.0. You can assign tracks to their own MIDI note numbers, and trigger them in realtime. If you have a Mac, MOTU's Digital Performer has a similar feature called "Chunks". Don't know much more about it, other than it's there. Using hardware (my preferred alternative, because it's reliable), there are (2) solutions out there: Roland's RPS (MC-80 and XP-50/60/80) and Korg's RPPR (Triton). I have the MC-80, and know it pretty much inside and out. It's not a groove style sequencer, which means it doesn't chain patterns in realtime or do any fancy stuff... but, it does have a solid 8-way RPS implementation that can trigger external MIDI gear. (Beware that the Roland Groove series, on the other hand, does NOT transmit RPS to the MIDI out port as far as I know). I've seen Korg's Triton documentation, and I believe that their RPPR has a similar implementation as the Roland RPS, but I've never actually tried RPPR out. Another hardware sequencer I've heard of is the Notron, but it is long since discontinued and very rare and expensive.

Also, you might want to keep a look out at the NAMM later this month. I've heard some rumbling from Elektron that they are busy with something... I hope they took my advise and are building a full-scale MIDI sequencer. Also, someone (close to Korg, possibly) was touting their next Electribe a few months ago.

We'll see.  


Scott



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Message 4/20             02-Jan-03  @  05:45 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

errata

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This is exactly why i decided to pursue eastern philosophy. My hope is to become a Tantric Deity with multiple arms just for this purpose... ;)

When I played alone, I used an XP80 and my PC. RPS is nice, but now that I work with a partner our transitions are seemless... and because of the way we work there's a lot less programing for the live set. We just "jam" the trax we've written and play off of each other. If I went back to solo, I'd DEFINATELY have 2 hardware sequencers running different boxes... I'd just have to KNOW my trax inside and out and practice... or accomplish something akin to enlightenment and sprout a few more arms! (Not a bad option...)

e



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Message 5/20             04-Jan-03  @  12:28 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Mindspawn

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Heheh.... long live the octopus! Like what's already been said... practice be the key. I've seen FLEMs do shows with a Dr. Sample, a Zoom FX processor, and a mic that rocked a house, AND I've seen fugheds with racks of gear that couldn't groove to save their asses. Biggest difference is knowing your bits, your riffs, and being able to flow with the crowd while setting them up for the slaughter.... or sumpin' like that...=)



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Message 6/20             05-Jan-03  @  05:18 AM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Scott

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**A Note Of Caution Regarding Logic Touch Tracks**

(I have Logic for the PC, version 4.8.1)...

I tried Touch Tracks out for the first time tonight, to see how it compares to the RPS function on my Roland MC-80.

I dragged (5) EXS-24 audio instruments into the Touch Tracks window. I've heard that Touch Tracks is only supposed to work with MIDI tracks, but it seems to want to play these EXS-24 tracks, so I continued on to test it out.

The first thing that I didn't like was the fact that you have to set the transport going, and then click on the little graphical keyboard keys in the Touch Tracks window to activate each track. My attached USB MIDI controller keyboard, works fine in the arrange window to manuall trigger EXS-24 audio instruments, but for some reason, Touch Tracks doesn't respond to it... not good at all.

The second thing (much more disturbing), was when I used LoopToggle mode on each track (i.e. track loops until you press the graphical note for that track again), and when I had the quantize set to 1/1, Logic would stop all of the other tracks that were playing back, wait for the next measure to begin, and then brought them back in, all at once. :-/ When I used Free quantizing, it works fine, but then it's nearly impossible to sync up the tracks together... The single and gate settings are worthless - who's going to sit there and click for each repeition?

Ummm, and this is supposed to be useful for live performance or arranging?

I'll stick with Roland's RPS, which works with external MIDI keyboards, and it plays back independent tracks smoothly and uneventfully. :-)


Scott



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Message 7/20             10-Jan-03  @  10:44 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

brad

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[image file]


if you practice enuff you will be able to do crazy
shit with your fingers.

when I first started I used to get stumped and
frustrated b/c there were certain
parts/changes/tracks I couldn't play the way I
wanted b/c of the 2 arm syndrome. Now I am
more exp. and I can do whatever I need to
do...practice practice practice....



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Message 8/20             11-Jan-03  @  04:43 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Florburnr

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Ok for Touch Tracks. I haven't used this in a while but anyway...
You can trigger them from external midi devices and get them to send out from midi devices.



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Message 9/20             11-Jan-03  @  05:35 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Florburnr

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TT cont.
They will trigger whatever track the part was dragged from. If you drag from a arrange track who's output was to the exs then thats what the touch track will trigger. If the arrange was set to your midi out then thats where TT's output will go. TTs can also have any event that is recorded by logic assigned to them. ie: automation, changing screen sets, prog. changes, even notes.

In logic what ever arrange track you have selected is where your midi in will go to. Thus if you have the exs track selected it will get the midi in. If you have the tt selected it'll receive the midi in events. To get around this you need to go into the environment and cable the in's and outs appropriately.

RE: Logic's vstis & realtime playing.
Logic doesn't do it very well. Only the currently selected arrange track will be in real time. ie you can't play an exs and an ES1 in realtime.



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Message 10/20             12-Jan-03  @  12:16 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

chroma

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"I've seen fugheds with racks of gear that couldn't groove to save their asses."

mindspawn why dint you come up and say hi  

im in the same situation myself now; planning out my "juggling" act...

im leaning towards devoting single midi channels to whole beats, cutting between thenm on my sequencer, and basically triggering the other parts/loops live with the keys; oneshots, hits, fx, even string sections...so the beats and main basslines are sequenced but the other parts are triggered....i nearly went mad splitting everything on the seq....too much control is not necessarily a good thing



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Message 11/20             12-Jan-03  @  09:55 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Mindspawn

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LOL!!! Well, I sincerely hope I wouldna feel that way about anyone from here, chroma... DT folk, IMO, aren't generally the "look at all my shit.. I can't fugging play to save me ass" types. Most of 'em I've met tend to be more the "Oz" type... Very willing to be the one behind the machines...

I'm also with you that sometimes there's just "too much control" to have to fret over iin a live set... Well, actually I guess I like having the option of using it, I just dunna want to "have to." =)

I've also gotten to the point of keeping individual beats (BD, SD, Hats, etc.) on their own separate channels. I never used much more than three or four channels for synth bits anyhow, so I figured since both my RS and my SQ16 allow me to do so, why not split it up. I actually like that much control over the percussion, makes riding mixes a lot more flexible.



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Message 12/20             14-Jan-03  @  06:33 AM   -   RE: Octopus envy

chroma

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spawn: i actually do it that way; breaks on ch.1, snares ch.2 hats on ch.3 etc. cool because its easier to do dub style delay bursts on just the snare for example...but kinda scary for me ...i always end up leaping for the right fader/mute button a second too late...i figure it will be easier on me to cut between beats/patterns if it was laid out on my sequencer instead of cutting on the mixer....ah well practice, practice etc.



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Message 13/20             15-Jan-03  @  08:53 AM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Mindspawn

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I actually got away from using the mixer all that much, too. I mainly do my mutes, volume, and panning via MIDI. About the only time I go for the mixboard is if something is gone whack, like a stuck note or something. I tend to use the mixer more for getting the sounds sorted, I dunna do a lot of "creative" mixing these days.

Occasionally I muck with FX and such via the mixboard, but most of the EQ, faders, and pan pots get set and left alone. Maybe a tweak here now and then, but little else. Of course, I say this and the next time I go out I'm liable to be all over my mixer now that I've opened my mouth...=)



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Message 14/20             15-Jan-03  @  02:50 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

99devils

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I set up everything I need for each track on the RM1X... eliminates the octopus effect. One controller, and the RM1X is all I touch live, except in the case of a serious disaster  

-Craig



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Message 15/20             15-Jan-03  @  06:13 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

errata

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I use an RM1x and I still want 8 friggin' arms! Hehehe...

MS, I'm the same way... I used to play whole sets on my mixer. Remember when "a mixer without mutes" was worthless? It's a testament to the gear of today that we can set the mixer and leave it alone. That was just impossible 4 years ago!

e



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Message 16/20             12-Feb-03  @  04:07 AM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Pongoid

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I dunno, I try to use all of my gear that I bring to a gig. If I'm bring my MW, and the controller, I'm gonna try to at least figure out how to do something cool with it during the course of the set. Otherwise, why bring it? Yup, I'll use my mixer and my sequencer to mute and tweek stuff out. Eq's, levels. effects, mutes, whatever. It's all there for a reason, or not there. ANyhoos, yeah, Eight arms would be cool but I have two, so I'll just try to use them as strategicly as possible.


Ape



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Message 17/20             12-Feb-03  @  02:26 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

99devils

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Oh, I use it all, but I don't have to physically twiddle the knob on the virus, I use the RM1X's knobs. I play my Nord Rack and Virus from the controller.

That shit's heavy - I wouldn't bring it if I didn't use it  



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Message 18/20             12-Feb-03  @  06:33 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

errata

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do people bring gear to a set and not use it?! I got your point Pongoid, if it gives us control, use it... maybe I wouldn't need 8 arms if I took advantage of what's already there, eh?

e



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Message 19/20             13-Feb-03  @  09:44 PM   -   RE: Octopus envy

99devils

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Actually, I know of an industrial band in the area that dragged tons of shit out to a gig.. Just racks and racks of stuff... But they pretty much pressed play and maybe played a few synth lines and singing and guitars on top. I said, "Why don't you get a sampler and leave anything you're not using realtime at home".. The kid's like "What does a sampler do?"

Fucking kids these days :p



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Message 20/20             14-Feb-03  @  12:16 AM   -   RE: Octopus envy

Pongoid

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LOL



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