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Forums - Music tracks & feedback
Subject: Chapter 17
Viewing all 13 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2
Original Message 1/13 11-Oct-10 @ 01:26 PM - RE: Chapter 17
NastyM
Posts: 294
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Just posting a new track "Chapter 17 (Fools Justice)"
I am struggling with hooks - wondered if this has proved any better than my previous mish-mash of sounds - would appreciate any comments.
PS if purposely tried to make the voice recording a little inaudible - although i like the tone of the speaker i must admit i feel quite anti- what he has to say.
I supose its quite irresponsible to add a soundbite such as this if i do not condone his beliefs - however i actually view any tunes i do as an exercise and for personal use, rather than the public review (seems rather odd considering i post them on the internet).
In a last ditch attempt to vindicate myself ive given the track a subtitle "Fools Justice" hope this in someway absolves me - Appologies all round to whom I may offend.
Anyhow if anyone would like to pass comment i'm all ears (and a little nose, mouth etc... you get the picture.)
I am struggling with hooks - wondered if this has proved any better than my previous mish-mash of sounds - would appreciate any comments.
PS if purposely tried to make the voice recording a little inaudible - although i like the tone of the speaker i must admit i feel quite anti- what he has to say.
I supose its quite irresponsible to add a soundbite such as this if i do not condone his beliefs - however i actually view any tunes i do as an exercise and for personal use, rather than the public review (seems rather odd considering i post them on the internet).
In a last ditch attempt to vindicate myself ive given the track a subtitle "Fools Justice" hope this in someway absolves me - Appologies all round to whom I may offend.
Anyhow if anyone would like to pass comment i'm all ears (and a little nose, mouth etc... you get the picture.)
Message 2/13 12-Oct-10 @ 12:30 AM - RE: Chapter 17
I like a lot of the sounds in this and the way the rhythm comes in early in the track because I didn't expect the downbeat to be where it was. I always enjoy that. Hooks are sometimes difficult to define because they are partly genre driven. When I think of hooks I think of pop music more than anything else. I did like your last track more. I think it was The Poles Gift. I don't remember there being a hook but it was good.
Message 3/13 12-Oct-10 @ 01:31 AM - RE: Chapter 17
NastyM
Posts: 294
Link?: No link
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Cheers for the comment .... i personally dont get hooks ...... i can understand the instant appeal, but it appers little than a catchy gimmick for anybody with a limited attention span (sounds awfully pompous) but i like to think a piece of music should not just rely on hooks but ..... well you know do its own thing. its personal taste at the end of the day .....
Message 4/13 13-Oct-10 @ 03:29 AM Edit: 13-Oct-10 | 03:52 AM - RE: Chapter 17
I just thought of something that might or might not shine some light on the idea of a hook. Again, I think hooks are mandatory in the pop music industry but think more of "motif". A perfect example of a motif is "da da da daaaa" of the first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony. He built the entire composition of the movement around those 4 notes and they are arguably the most well known 4 notes in the western world. The first movement falls somewhere between 7 and 8 minutes long dependent on the speed at which it's conducted. For it's length it could be a dance track. It also has breakdowns. I just listened to it. I haven't in a long time and it's amazing. Breakdowns. And the passion. Imagine. You should give it a listen. Motifs are generally melodic but can be strictly rhythmic too like that song that popular in the 80s "Din Da Da".
It's also good to be realistic about human nature. Unless they're really devoted people won't remember the long passages in Wagner's Siegried but they'll remember "All the single ladies". Now I won't get that song out of my head for the rest of the night lol. I would bet my bottom dollar Mozart and Beethoven would have been in heaven writing electronic dance music. You can quote me on that. Imagine Beethoven's 5th symphony motif as the opening of a massive bass riff. Holy shit! People would go nuts! What a fucking mad genius Beethoven was. Imagine a korg and a virus in his hands. What he wouldn't have done with a smapler. Why should we be any different? When I just listened to his 5th it made me realize even more that music hasn't changed. The technology has.
It's also good to be realistic about human nature. Unless they're really devoted people won't remember the long passages in Wagner's Siegried but they'll remember "All the single ladies". Now I won't get that song out of my head for the rest of the night lol. I would bet my bottom dollar Mozart and Beethoven would have been in heaven writing electronic dance music. You can quote me on that. Imagine Beethoven's 5th symphony motif as the opening of a massive bass riff. Holy shit! People would go nuts! What a fucking mad genius Beethoven was. Imagine a korg and a virus in his hands. What he wouldn't have done with a smapler. Why should we be any different? When I just listened to his 5th it made me realize even more that music hasn't changed. The technology has.
Message 5/13 14-Oct-10 @ 05:24 PM - RE: Chapter 17
ah well; actualy i am fascinated by hooks. I am not adverse to commercialism with taste. A great hook is a joy to behold. It's an 'art' thing i think, functionality & form. My dad was very interested in that topic so perhaps it rubbed off a tad? He was a supporter (or whatever the term is) of 'public art' - art which had functionality & accessibility within society/the community. The proposition being that 'art' once commonly had a tangible societal role rather than being a series of intellectual proposition.
initialy that would include 'jobbing' artists who documented via portraits of people, dogs, horses, houses etc. But also societal art as a vehicle thru which society celebrated or worshipped or just plain 'partied'. So i guess this would include stuff like Las Fallas in Valencia province, or the mexican festival of the dead, and even public monuments again serving to collectivise the experience or emotions of the society or community, Anywhere that local art was a functioning vehicle and accessible as opposed to being hi-brow, intellectual and inaccessible to the man in the street
In that respect i am fascinated by music and it's role, particularly dance music which captures the essense of public art probably more than any other genre, in that it primarily serves a societal function above any & all intellectual purpose (if any exists at all)
dance music has existed since caveman times, it's always been with us because it serves society/community; from worship to preparation for war, the celebration of collective communal experiences and just straight-ahead collective partying!
thats what i like about the genre. above everything else it is functional, and collapses without that primary functionality - it can be as clever as you like intellectualy, but if it doesnt 'get people up on the dancefloor' it's failed in it's primary role.
Hooks are similar i think, and thats why i love em. Hooks paint a backdrop to collective experience of times and eras; they define and act as containers for societal experiences in my opinion. We only have to hear a popular hook from history to conjour up images of that era, and hooks within cultural genres define emotional collective experience for different groups within society.
know what i mean? big hit hooks ... ok so say you play a popular glenn miller hook to people; instantly they think of the era, the imagery, mood, style, fashion etc of an era, even if they have zero interest in that era or knowledge of that era.
Play Abba hooks and we are whisked to the 70's etc (whether we like abba or not). Hooks serve that purpose in layers; starting at the top with global pop hits everyone knows due to sheer saturation, and working down thru genres which serve as vehicles for collective remebrance of social experience for social groups and ethnic communities etc. Of course there are also regional variations; every regional culture has it's own collection of hooks unique to their culture which binds that society to a collective experience distrinctly different to other locations.
it's fascinating to me anyway. You know i am always quoting william orbit on this.. when asked how he creates tracks he said he uses 'recognisable icons'; familiar objects around which he then builds new sounds, melodies, patterns. hooks etc etc. Every genre has the possibility to employ this technique & again it is defined by genre, regional & cultural variation
I mean just play an 80's 'sleng-teng' bassline to people and instantly it defines a collective experience for a social group within western society, to the point of stimulating strong emotional collective experiences, but is meaningless outside of the social group who functioned within the context of that bassline.
crafting a hook isnt always as easy as it seems as well, and hook techniques change from genre to genre.
i love all the various techniques of hook creation and the way we can store them as a kinda arsenal of techniques we take on board and can draw on for future creative purpose.
Like say "Something else" by Eddie Cochran.. i really really rate Eddie Cochran anyway btw, he wrote some phenomenal songs at such a young age, but Something Else has that technique of the hook working towards a stop where the final key 'hook' phrase is delivered in isolation, and absolutely this technique can be used and IS used in dance music... the main hook plays and the last bar is dropped out leaving just the main synth pattern in isolation before the main verse riff comes back in.
initialy that would include 'jobbing' artists who documented via portraits of people, dogs, horses, houses etc. But also societal art as a vehicle thru which society celebrated or worshipped or just plain 'partied'. So i guess this would include stuff like Las Fallas in Valencia province, or the mexican festival of the dead, and even public monuments again serving to collectivise the experience or emotions of the society or community, Anywhere that local art was a functioning vehicle and accessible as opposed to being hi-brow, intellectual and inaccessible to the man in the street
In that respect i am fascinated by music and it's role, particularly dance music which captures the essense of public art probably more than any other genre, in that it primarily serves a societal function above any & all intellectual purpose (if any exists at all)
dance music has existed since caveman times, it's always been with us because it serves society/community; from worship to preparation for war, the celebration of collective communal experiences and just straight-ahead collective partying!
thats what i like about the genre. above everything else it is functional, and collapses without that primary functionality - it can be as clever as you like intellectualy, but if it doesnt 'get people up on the dancefloor' it's failed in it's primary role.
Hooks are similar i think, and thats why i love em. Hooks paint a backdrop to collective experience of times and eras; they define and act as containers for societal experiences in my opinion. We only have to hear a popular hook from history to conjour up images of that era, and hooks within cultural genres define emotional collective experience for different groups within society.
know what i mean? big hit hooks ... ok so say you play a popular glenn miller hook to people; instantly they think of the era, the imagery, mood, style, fashion etc of an era, even if they have zero interest in that era or knowledge of that era.
Play Abba hooks and we are whisked to the 70's etc (whether we like abba or not). Hooks serve that purpose in layers; starting at the top with global pop hits everyone knows due to sheer saturation, and working down thru genres which serve as vehicles for collective remebrance of social experience for social groups and ethnic communities etc. Of course there are also regional variations; every regional culture has it's own collection of hooks unique to their culture which binds that society to a collective experience distrinctly different to other locations.
it's fascinating to me anyway. You know i am always quoting william orbit on this.. when asked how he creates tracks he said he uses 'recognisable icons'; familiar objects around which he then builds new sounds, melodies, patterns. hooks etc etc. Every genre has the possibility to employ this technique & again it is defined by genre, regional & cultural variation
I mean just play an 80's 'sleng-teng' bassline to people and instantly it defines a collective experience for a social group within western society, to the point of stimulating strong emotional collective experiences, but is meaningless outside of the social group who functioned within the context of that bassline.
crafting a hook isnt always as easy as it seems as well, and hook techniques change from genre to genre.
i love all the various techniques of hook creation and the way we can store them as a kinda arsenal of techniques we take on board and can draw on for future creative purpose.
Like say "Something else" by Eddie Cochran.. i really really rate Eddie Cochran anyway btw, he wrote some phenomenal songs at such a young age, but Something Else has that technique of the hook working towards a stop where the final key 'hook' phrase is delivered in isolation, and absolutely this technique can be used and IS used in dance music... the main hook plays and the last bar is dropped out leaving just the main synth pattern in isolation before the main verse riff comes back in.
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 6/13 14-Oct-10 @ 08:16 PM - RE: Chapter 17
good points k. funny cuz i posted in the other forum something about my limited exposure to dance music. i would add that more complex types of music that never even intend to make it to the pop charts have their important functions in society too. when i think of painting in place of music there isn't much quickie pop art in museums and a complaint i often hear about some dance genres is that although they are great to dance to in the clubs they are boring to listen to during the day.
in the states dance music might as well be some form of obscure classical music. most people here still play rock and roll on the jukeboxes and they hate dance music. i want to scream every time some 20 something plays "I was born a rambling man" at a bar. i played Narayan by The Prodigy and a track by Underworld in a bar filled with mostly young people once and the owner, who I know, asked me not to play that kind of music because it's bad for business. i understand where he's coming from and we got a good laugh about it. he shakes his head because i'm in my 50s and into techno. you get what i mean though. i listened to "You can't always get what you want" when I was a teen and when it first came out. was it a great song? it was but this is 40 years later. younger people should be pissed at me for playing a song like that, not the other way around. lol
in the states dance music might as well be some form of obscure classical music. most people here still play rock and roll on the jukeboxes and they hate dance music. i want to scream every time some 20 something plays "I was born a rambling man" at a bar. i played Narayan by The Prodigy and a track by Underworld in a bar filled with mostly young people once and the owner, who I know, asked me not to play that kind of music because it's bad for business. i understand where he's coming from and we got a good laugh about it. he shakes his head because i'm in my 50s and into techno. you get what i mean though. i listened to "You can't always get what you want" when I was a teen and when it first came out. was it a great song? it was but this is 40 years later. younger people should be pissed at me for playing a song like that, not the other way around. lol
Message 7/13 15-Oct-10 @ 01:13 PM - RE: Chapter 17
NastyM
Posts: 294
Link?: No link
File?: No file
... and i just thought it was a catchy ditty.
Message 8/13 15-Oct-10 @ 06:37 PM - RE: Chapter 17
quote
NastyM wrote:
... and i just thought it was a catchy ditty.
NastyM wrote:
... and i just thought it was a catchy ditty.
Message 9/13 16-Oct-10 @ 01:05 AM - RE: Chapter 17
NastyM
Posts: 294
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Get what you're saying Captain K but it doesn't really help me.... i've been "lost in time" to quote Mr Vonnegout and all though i appreciate the finer points of the hook relating to "societal experience" i just can't work them out (probably due to lack of talent), however i do appreciate Captain Sitars comment re Beetys Fifth - an absolute winner - simple yet captivating - another may be the opening to "Fur Elise" annoyingly simple yet right on the money.
I assume i'm correct in thinking simplicity may make the differance .... Lady Ga Gas poker shit etc. catchy yet moronically simple. This could be the reason i miss the point.
I have always tried to over complicate things in my life and a smooth ride would appear dull yet quite often this appeals to the masses.
On a similar tack, whilst partaking of a little ale in the local i could not help but get dragged into the tripe offered on the tv (WWWWWFFFFF fuckin' wrestling). As much as i disliked the program i couldn'y help but notice two gents absolutely enthralled, laughing their tits off to be precise, although i despised this spectacle i still sat amazed at the enjoyment that the two lads gained from this absurd pantomime, leading me to realize i could have got the grasp on life totally wrong.
Don't misunderstand me here, i have no intention on buying wwwf trading cards, but by the fuck i do feel a little jea
lous of the man who can attain happiness through such simple stimulus.
"How happy is the moron, he doesn't give a damn. I wish i was a moron, perhaps my God i am." anon.
I assume i'm correct in thinking simplicity may make the differance .... Lady Ga Gas poker shit etc. catchy yet moronically simple. This could be the reason i miss the point.
I have always tried to over complicate things in my life and a smooth ride would appear dull yet quite often this appeals to the masses.
On a similar tack, whilst partaking of a little ale in the local i could not help but get dragged into the tripe offered on the tv (WWWWWFFFFF fuckin' wrestling). As much as i disliked the program i couldn'y help but notice two gents absolutely enthralled, laughing their tits off to be precise, although i despised this spectacle i still sat amazed at the enjoyment that the two lads gained from this absurd pantomime, leading me to realize i could have got the grasp on life totally wrong.
Don't misunderstand me here, i have no intention on buying wwwf trading cards, but by the fuck i do feel a little jea
lous of the man who can attain happiness through such simple stimulus."How happy is the moron, he doesn't give a damn. I wish i was a moron, perhaps my God i am." anon.
Message 10/13 16-Oct-10 @ 03:00 PM - RE: Chapter 17
The thing with the moron is that he's fine and happy until someone rocks the boat a little.
From what I remember most hooks are quite simple. A few notes, a couple of chords to harmonize in maybe a unique way but tasteful and easy on the ears. Of course a death metal hook is going to sound different than a Neil Diamond hook lol. The chorus can be more interesting and elaborate as long as it leads nicely back into the hook. It's mostly and A-B-A formula. Sometimes there's a C in there too, like a second chorus or something. Beyonce has the hook "All the single ladies" and a second hook "If you want it then you better put a ring on it", then the verse section. I think every ethnic, social, and age group is represented by a youtube dance video to that song.
I heard someone talk about song lyrics. He said that hook lyrics should say something emotional and something that appeals to one of the senses. He offered a lot of examples. The one I remember was "Take a look at me now", that Phil Collins song. "Look" speaks to the eyes. Then I think of songs that have lyrics but wouldn't need them necessarily. One that comes to mind is "We Like to Party" by The Venga Boys. It's like the most simple song in the world but those chords on that instrument at that speed have partying written all over them. I swear I could watch this commercial all day. lol
From what I remember most hooks are quite simple. A few notes, a couple of chords to harmonize in maybe a unique way but tasteful and easy on the ears. Of course a death metal hook is going to sound different than a Neil Diamond hook lol. The chorus can be more interesting and elaborate as long as it leads nicely back into the hook. It's mostly and A-B-A formula. Sometimes there's a C in there too, like a second chorus or something. Beyonce has the hook "All the single ladies" and a second hook "If you want it then you better put a ring on it", then the verse section. I think every ethnic, social, and age group is represented by a youtube dance video to that song.
I heard someone talk about song lyrics. He said that hook lyrics should say something emotional and something that appeals to one of the senses. He offered a lot of examples. The one I remember was "Take a look at me now", that Phil Collins song. "Look" speaks to the eyes. Then I think of songs that have lyrics but wouldn't need them necessarily. One that comes to mind is "We Like to Party" by The Venga Boys. It's like the most simple song in the world but those chords on that instrument at that speed have partying written all over them. I swear I could watch this commercial all day. lol
Message 11/13 18-Oct-10 @ 10:47 AM - RE: Chapter 17
re: your song nasty. I love the breakdown which leads into the guitar break. 
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 12/13 20-Oct-10 @ 07:29 AM - RE: Chapter 17
Hello Nasty,
Like the two riffs. Good stereo. Another good job.
But I've currently got the Polish one on and my toes are doing their own thing. Very smooth -- 'Nice' Nasty!
Like the two riffs. Good stereo. Another good job.
But I've currently got the Polish one on and my toes are doing their own thing. Very smooth -- 'Nice' Nasty!
Message 13/13 20-Oct-10 @ 07:56 PM - RE: Chapter 17
NastyM
Posts: 294
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Cheers, & many thanks ..... but i must admit the Polish one is a big cheet. Bass & Kit are sampled loops - don't half feel like artistic theft - (in my defence i suppose i,ve arranged the jigsaw correctly and injected a wee bit of my very own "nasty" ambience.)
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