Forums - Computer music & technology
Subject: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
Original Message 1/12 11-Dec-98 @ 11:01 PM - 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?!?
Finally taking the plunge and getting rid of my old studio setup. You know the score, aging Seck Mixer, multi-track tape machine, Roland sampler, VFX synth, Quadraverbs, Atari computer etc. Want to know if its possible to have all this on a PC with a MIDI keyboard, mastering to CD-R, working entirely in the digital domain.
Been thinking about getting a fast PII 450 PC computer with Cubase VST, Yamaha SW1000XG, Gigasampler 1.5 etc. Anyone out there know if this is a good set up and what further equipment I would need. Do I need another sound card and which one? Is this setup a pure digital affair or is there some analogue pathway still creeping in somewhere? How do the Cubase, Yamaha card and the Gigasampler integrate together ?
Julian
Message 2/12 12-Dec-98 @ 06:12 AM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
next, giga sampler... dunno how efficient it is... in theory tho it all should work...as long as: you can get all the midi routing sorted.. and still retain reliable clock stability whilst record/playbac....: and... the audio tracks & s/w sampler need to be able to play simulteaneously using the cards drivers.... it's no use if you get "this device is in use.." messages.....it'd be alot less strain maybe to go with the rolnd (unless itsa pile'o'crap to you)... and route that back into your card for mastering & it'll also appear in the final output too whilst your composing.... might be a thought as you're familiar with it, and all that.....if you're goping to buy gigasampler, it's alot..... i mean ?..... well, it's about 700 dollars or something... which is the price of a P2 300 pretty well loaded... if you see what i mean.... however if it is the ...ahem... unofficial version, then you cant loose out financialy if it turns out that it's all a tad unstable... remeber you want excellent clock.... anyways... there's some thoughts... see the way i figure it with your kitlist you may want to do a variety of tunes, and record from a mic.... in that case i'd say a small mixer like the Folio or summat, , and the sampler, (or an upgrade),,, cos the mixer'll be better to get mic'd up and you may want phantom power (you never know?.... i mean, if it's going to digital, you might decide to hire or buy at some point a real shit hot vocal mic ... it'll need phantom more than likely.......
Message 3/12 12-Dec-98 @ 04:19 PM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
Message 4/12 12-Dec-98 @ 06:06 PM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
One question that's just come up is regarding EQing. Under the combination of Yamaha card/Cubase/Emu card or Softare sampler with Cubase VST, will I be able to EQ each track simultaneously during playback?
Should I sell my Alesis compressor? Does the Yamaha SW1000xg or the EMU card have a noise gate compressor built in?
What about the software synthesisers out there? Such as the Generator and Reality? Can I run those simulataneously with Cubase VST, Yamaha synth card, EMU sampler card/Gigasampler? Am I going to get hardware/software conflict problems.
I believe the Yamaha SW1000xg gives you 12 mono tracks for H/D recording. Does adding the Emu card allow for more audio tracks?
There is a rumour I have heard about a new software sampler arriving soon which, probably hype spued out by an over eager salesman, that supposedly will redefine the way people do sampling (his words not mine!). Anyone know what this is could be? He couldn't remember the name.
Julian
Message 5/12 12-Dec-98 @ 07:16 PM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
As far as I know, both the APS and sw1000xg have compressors and EQ and just about everything else you could imagine in the way of effects. But no, there isnt any easy way to mix the output of two cards simultaneously, unless you use something like the mixer in cakewalk or VST to handle your mixing.
And yes, adding the E-mu card will give you several more tracks for mixing in addition to the sw1000xg. The 32 internal midi channels used by the sampler can be independantly mixed down, and then you have 4 analog inputs and outputs, and 4 digital ins and outs. And you can apply effects to any of these channels in realtime. And since it's all handled by hardware on your card you wont have to worry about your systems performance being dragged down. Check out www.emu.com to read up on the APS. I really like this card, in case you couldnt tell.
Message 6/12 13-Dec-98 @ 01:37 PM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
Forget about trying to run them alongside a seqencer.
I have a PII 266 with 128 megs RAM and even then a not too complex generator patch uses all available CPU at just a 22Khz sample rate with 1 or 2 voices.
Nice idea but in practice...limited to creating simple patches and sampling them.
Astro please stop going on about the bloody EMU APS.
Not like it's the first sound card ever invented that takes samples ! Even a lowly SB does this. TB cards have been doing it for years. My TB Pinnacle has a sampler like a cut down Kurzweil K2000 on board.
Can the EMU read sample disks for its big brothers the EMU samplers, like the new Pulsar cam supposedly read AKAI disks?
AFAIK the SW1000 doesn't have dynamics and EQs on each channel, it has 5 available FX processors and these have EGs no doubt but I don't know about compressor/limiter/gate, and not one for each channel. For this the DS2416 card would be much better...and properly integrated into the latest sequencer updates unlike the 1000.
Having said that, any XG module (I have two) is great for the backing parts on your tracks....you'll want something else for drums and analogue leads/pads/basses/weirdness.
Message 7/12 13-Dec-98 @ 03:03 PM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
Though I am curious about the quality of sounds from both the Yamaha and EMU cards. I am used to not working with any synths and layering just using samplers: my own Roland S750 (used for the synthy sounds as well as sampling) and my mate's S1000 akai. I always found most of my synthesizers to have thin and static sounds and in alot of my stuff I'm trying to re-create real instruments. This is what appeals to me about the Gigasampler. I've heard its got some big fat sounds. Maybe buy some Giga and Akai format sound library CDs.
Is there a difference between the CPU power used up by software synths (such as Reality and Generator) and a software sampler (such as Giga) which doesn't have to calculate sound waves on the fly. Can anyone verify this?
Thanks Rodsta! I am beginning to veer towards getting the Yamaha DSP24/16 with Cubase VST/24 and a Gigasampler. I'm a greedy bastard! and if I'm spending close to three grand, I want better than what I got now.
I thought the best way was to lay down each track individually dry on to an audio track, then treat them with individual effects during playback via the Yamaha DSP? Surely this won't tax the computer much while still getting that ultimate big studio sound. In this way I can get away from buying any pure synth cards. Is this practical? Ideally, I'd want to do all my mixing/effects work in 24-bits, only dropping down to 16-bits to master. Is this achievable? I think with this one track at a time method, I'd be able to record some of the software synth sounds to audio track (with PII 450 computer) using (Rebirth, Generator or Reality) with one sound/track at a time. I know its long winded but end results should be good. Right or wrong? Or will I get no polyphony?
What about all those other software utilities such as the TC/Native reverbs, EQs etc. Steinberg Spectralizer, Hyperprism, Timeworks stuff etc. Has anyone used these to enhance their tracks?
Julian
Message 8/12 13-Dec-98 @ 05:48 PM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
Julian: I still think you should stear clear of software samplers as well as software synths. Like several of us have already mentioned, software synths are great if you just want to sample their output. But Gigasampler... the thing fucking costs $700. For that much you could get a new Akai s2000. Or for $200 less you could get a soundcard that has more sampling abilties than Gigasampler. The people that make Gigasampler even admit its not meant to be used at the same time you're useing a sequencer. And the performance of gigasampler is still going to be dependant on the performance of your computer. I'd rather have hardware that I can be confident will always work. Gigasampler's big claim to fame is that it can use samples a gigabyte long. Now... when was the last time you felt the need to use a 1000 megabyte sample?!?!
Message 9/12 14-Dec-98 @ 08:31 AM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
The makers of GIGA basically say it needs a dedicated powerful fast computer. Forget it and take Astro's advice, use a sampling soundcard or a hardware sampler...maybe keep that Roland (Roni Size uses 'em doesn't he?) or update.
If you are trying to recreate real instruments then I guess your choice is a sampling device or maybe a soundcard like the SW1000XG. It has lots of acoustic samples that can be fattened up with the F/X. Also of interest to you it takes a monophonic physical modelling daughtercard, this could be a fascinating area to explore for your lead acoustic sounds, and cheaper than more powerful alternatives like a Z1.
With the audio/MIDI+audio sequencers, yes a lot of the time a good idea is to lay down the tracks dry and apply the f/x. You could feasibly run a soft synth with a simple patch and record a track at a time as audio and load into the sequencer. Poly will be low if the patch is complex even on a PII 450. Some of these soft synths do have simple onboard recreations of analog sequencers you could use instead of cubase, then capture their output to a wave file.
For dance, as Kilo has said, I can't see any point in 24 bits.
The software plugins you mentioned are really great and can give you very professional sounding quality. The main problem is CPU usage. The solution is to apply the CPU-sapping effects offline (not in real time) one track at a time and load the new file with effects back into the sequencer. With a fast CPU this becomes a bit less of an issue. If you get the DSP factory it takes over the mixing and effects in hardware if you want. You can still use Cubase's virtual digital mixer and effects, and the DSP 2416's real ones, giving you the best of both worlds..the flexibility of software and speed of hardware.
Lastly if you're going to buy a new computer and are serious about getting the most out of VST, at least check out a Mac.
Message 10/12 05-Jan-99 @ 08:23 PM - RE: 100% digital recording on PC - myth ?
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