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Forums - Theory / composition / technique
Subject: Horn arrangements
Original Message 1/13 26-Feb-01 @ 08:35 PM - Horn arrangements
Hi guys. I'm looking for tips, pointers, web resources, anything... I've got a tune I'm working on with my band-project and I want to throw some horn arrangements into it, but I've never written that kind of thing before. Do they mostly move in traditional 4-part, ie no paralell 5ths and octaves? What about smaller brass sections, like one trumpet and one trombone?
Gotta dust off the old horn and remember how to play 
-Craig
Message 2/13 01-Mar-01 @ 02:23 PM - RE: Horn arrangements
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Well the first thing to do is to look at the tune and to find the spaces in it where you can fit in the horn parts you don't want the horns to conflict with other important parts or be taking up too much of the space either.Examine the melody closely and build the horn parts off of that remember though that brass sounds are more tiring to the ear than reed sounds especially in the higher registers.As you move into the higher registers the gaps between the notes should be wider i.e. you don't want to be playing very high pitched minor 2nds with trumpets the same goes for the lower register.Very important is to know what range the instrument you're emulating has because it'll sound very bad for example playing a soprano part on a tenor sax patch.If you had say 2 trumpets,alto sax,tenor sax and trombone and had the trumpets at the top of your voicing the alto and the tenor in the middle and bottom of it and the trombone near the middle the overall sound would be quite brassy sounding.If you reverse that and put the saxes on top the trumpets won't sound so bright being played lower in their range and the overall sound will be much more reedy.
You can also try playing ascending parts with say the tenor sax playing the lower notes and as the part start to get higher have the trumpets take over that way you take advantage of the the different ranges of the instruments.Another approach is using a pedal that changes between instruments so say use the alto to play a pedal(sustained)note then as the(emulated) player is starting to run out of breath the trumpet takes over then the tenor then the alto again this adds timbral interest and gives a sort of pulsing feeling if done correctly.
As for voicings if it sounds good it is good the chord progression of the song itself should give you the raw materials to build off but the melody is the most important thing the horns should follow that.Like I said sustained brass tires the ears pretty quickly reeds are not far off,that's why the bulk of sustained sounds in classical are carried by the strings they're much less tiring on the ears.
You can also try playing ascending parts with say the tenor sax playing the lower notes and as the part start to get higher have the trumpets take over that way you take advantage of the the different ranges of the instruments.Another approach is using a pedal that changes between instruments so say use the alto to play a pedal(sustained)note then as the(emulated) player is starting to run out of breath the trumpet takes over then the tenor then the alto again this adds timbral interest and gives a sort of pulsing feeling if done correctly.
As for voicings if it sounds good it is good the chord progression of the song itself should give you the raw materials to build off but the melody is the most important thing the horns should follow that.Like I said sustained brass tires the ears pretty quickly reeds are not far off,that's why the bulk of sustained sounds in classical are carried by the strings they're much less tiring on the ears.
Message 3/13 04-Mar-01 @ 01:14 AM - RE: Horn arrangements
That was good info.but specifically
what kind of intervals would a horm section in a funk band be playing.(think james brown and sly stone).do they play 5ths and 4ths with doubled octaves , full chords,or single note melodys ?
what kind of intervals would a horm section in a funk band be playing.(think james brown and sly stone).do they play 5ths and 4ths with doubled octaves , full chords,or single note melodys ?
Message 4/13 04-Mar-01 @ 08:15 PM - RE: Horn arrangements
lots of extended tertial structures man. flat 13's
sharp 9's and shit like that. usually you omit the
fifth in the 9 chord and use the root, third, seventh,
ninth. in the 13 chord you can omit the 5th and the
ninth (though you don't have to) so Vb13 in D
major with the 5th and 9th omitted would be A, C,
G, Db. That help?
Peaceout,
Peter
sharp 9's and shit like that. usually you omit the
fifth in the 9 chord and use the root, third, seventh,
ninth. in the 13 chord you can omit the 5th and the
ninth (though you don't have to) so Vb13 in D
major with the 5th and 9th omitted would be A, C,
G, Db. That help?
Peaceout,
Peter
Message 5/13 06-Mar-01 @ 02:46 PM - RE: Horn arrangements
Who said anything about emulating the horns?
There's going to be a trumpet (me) and a trombone, and
we're doing more of a funk/reggae thing. I've played
in orchestras for years so I have a real good
understanding of the different instruments and their
relative ranges. It's the actual chords I was
concerned about. Like all those horn stabs and the
like you hear in funk and reggae.. So far the vast
majority of the tunes are simple major7/minor7 type
shit..
-Craig
There's going to be a trumpet (me) and a trombone, and
we're doing more of a funk/reggae thing. I've played
in orchestras for years so I have a real good
understanding of the different instruments and their
relative ranges. It's the actual chords I was
concerned about. Like all those horn stabs and the
like you hear in funk and reggae.. So far the vast
majority of the tunes are simple major7/minor7 type
shit..
-Craig
Message 6/13 07-Mar-01 @ 04:50 PM - RE: Horn arrangements
then yeah, you're on the right track. no pl 5ths or 8ves.
Peaceout,
Peter
Peaceout,
Peter
Message 7/13 07-Mar-01 @ 05:46 PM - RE: Horn arrangements
The guys I know certainly don't overintellectualize it. 7th chords don't hardly enter into it, and never major 7ths, usually the dominant variety. Major 7s and 9ths tend to get a little airy or jazzy or something for the rasta stuff. One of the shames about what's coming outta JA these days is everybody's replacing horns with rompler horn patches -- it's been that way for a while with the tours but you hear more and more of it on recordings. Except Burning Spear, he still brings along the whole section.
Anyway, these guys I mix live and record have your same setup -- trumpet and bone. Usually the vocalist whose song it is (there's 2 lead singers who trade off) gets the basic riddim figured out with the drum/bass/piano and the structure as far as verse/chorus/bridge/whatever. When the horns come in, if the vocalist has ideas for parts, he sings his idea at them. For the fills, swells and little things in the turnaround, he'll go "play Bah-dah Bop" and they'll harmonize that on the spot -- sometimes in unison, sometimes thirds. For hooks, they may spend a little more time on that working it out between themselves and do trickier little shit like suggesting a major-to-minor modulation, 6ths, 7th, but the melodic part has to stay intact. Almost like fanfares they'd play when the medieval king entered the court. A way of saying "Here comes the singer. He bad, he bad."
For good examples of the style, you have to go back to rootsier artists. Burning Spear, Culture, the Itals, Israel Vibration, etc.
Anyway, these guys I mix live and record have your same setup -- trumpet and bone. Usually the vocalist whose song it is (there's 2 lead singers who trade off) gets the basic riddim figured out with the drum/bass/piano and the structure as far as verse/chorus/bridge/whatever. When the horns come in, if the vocalist has ideas for parts, he sings his idea at them. For the fills, swells and little things in the turnaround, he'll go "play Bah-dah Bop" and they'll harmonize that on the spot -- sometimes in unison, sometimes thirds. For hooks, they may spend a little more time on that working it out between themselves and do trickier little shit like suggesting a major-to-minor modulation, 6ths, 7th, but the melodic part has to stay intact. Almost like fanfares they'd play when the medieval king entered the court. A way of saying "Here comes the singer. He bad, he bad."
For good examples of the style, you have to go back to rootsier artists. Burning Spear, Culture, the Itals, Israel Vibration, etc.
Message 8/13 16-Mar-01 @ 02:09 PM - RE: Horn arrangements
Merci beaucoup mes amis...
So far I haven't done any arrangement of horn parts,
'cause I keep forgetting to dig up my horn at my folks'
place.
I've made a point that I will not be using any rompler
horn patches. Synthetic sounds only, God bless my Nord
Lead It's really helping to define the sound of the
group since I really haven't heard synths applied in
this style before.
-Craig
So far I haven't done any arrangement of horn parts,
'cause I keep forgetting to dig up my horn at my folks'
place.
I've made a point that I will not be using any rompler
horn patches. Synthetic sounds only, God bless my Nord
Lead
It's really helping to define the sound of thegroup since I really haven't heard synths applied in
this style before.
-Craig
Message 9/13 16-Mar-01 @ 04:25 PM - RE: Horn arrangements
it's funny, it's the one thing ROMplers just haven't
been able to do properly, horn patches...
been able to do properly, horn patches...
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