 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
Forums - Computer music & technology
Subject: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
Original Message 1/21 07-Dec-02 @ 12:30 PM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
so Mr Cake guy if you're listening - leaving aside the good stuff lets look at some glaring oversights which means there's no way to do a few simple things which anyone, anyone at all who makes SEQUENCER BASED MUSIC (where the emphasis is NOT on live playing followed by minimal editing, but rather where the user seeks to perform fast concentrated editing of midi & other data at FINE RESOLUTIONS), will find these oversights I'm going to list, irritating and counter-productive..
Now already I went beserk cos the old drum map DIDN'T have a blasted grid!! - so did a few others and you changed it - great! - half the job tho is only done!
Why on EARTH didn't you guys follow that thru to it's natural conclusion ?
examples:
1. in the ARRANGE CLIP AREA - you have slip editing (drag/move) you have controller editing etc all live on that area... SO WHERE'S THE BLOODY GRID!!!!!!!
C'mon be serious for a moment, people working at 16th or 32nd or whatever resolutions NEED A GRID... AT LEAST when moving a clip there is not even a temp' vertical & horizontal line which tracks the clip so you can see WHERE you are moving it to by beats/divisions.
there is ABSOLUTELY as far as I can see, NO way to even roughly estimate the clip boundary or position of a clip when trying to move things by divisions of bars even 1/4 note divisions, never mind 16th notes! - Same for node placement.
that is rediculous... if I want to place the start node of a fade in or out, or a controller move to mebbe SEND to a delay, & I want that to begin at EXACTLY bar 34 on beat 3, division 4, (a 16th position mebbe) , then how on earth in the arrange area can I judge the positioning of that node?
2. what IS going on?... glaring oversights in the piano roll editor...tell me.. HOW EXACTLY do you change the velocity QUICKLY for notes in say chord work where multiple notes occur on the same beat?... NO, it is NOT acceptible to click and open a dialog box for each blasted note, type in a velocity or scroll one then close the box & repeat that for each note!... that's rediculous when you COULD have a velocity tool which you simpley drag up/down over a note to alter velocity like in the drum-map - there's no way to do it in the lower velocity/controller area... so that needs sorting out - that, FOR WORK, is the equivilent of having a door in a factory you have to walk thru 200 times per day and rather than it being a swinging door, it's a door with a lock/catch, which each time you need to walk thru it, you have to put down the box you're carrying, open the door, walk thru, close the door and pick up the box - daft!
and another moan
... the VELOCITY TAILS in the drum map?.... what a great idea!.. BUT - NO!!!... IF you zoom OUT enuff to see even a 2 bar pattern at 4/4 the blasted velocity tails DISSAPEAR!!!!!!!!!!! - WHAT USE IS THAT! - what?... I'm sposed to zoom IN and try and edit velocities while listening to a 2-bar or 4 bar loop while the screen is hopping around or the cursor is dissapearing off screen and only a small section of my pattern is visible?.. NO! - WRONG! -
That MIGHT be ok for guitar or other rock music where mostly the user is mebbe laying down pads etc, but for dance music?.. NO WAY! - VELOCITY IS CRITICAL IN DANCE, and fine-editing velocities is one of the most performed tasks when composing - so sort THAT out.
other moans... grrrr.... well those 3 alone are enuff for me to say sadly NO, I COULDN'T SWITCH TO SONAR MYSELF YET, despite all the other great features because the most basic fundamental editing facilities are NOT correct YET
sorry... fix it... next version. try using some DANCE MAKERS for beta testing. There is still simply NO emphasis in the product for these users although the new drum map is a VERY good start & the audio groove clip thing scores again, but without velocity editing ability & clip/arrange editing grids etc at decent zoom-out resolutions it's pointless! -
it's like you are offering 'dance' abilities in a rather 'newbie' way if you do things like adding the groove-clips business but without the finder points added for more in-depth/advanced users in these genre of music-making - that's a shame
No grid on arrange area for editing clips and controllers.. for PRECISE placement of things... again, pointless - it defeats the whole purpose of having all those great abilities when they are reduced to being able to be used efficiently at only the most basic resolutions
I'd say pay heed to these moans... LOGIC is gone on PC, SX is often a pile of buggy junk or if not buggy version it still is characterised by tons of screen junk and litter while SONAR is 'zip' fast, and manages screen estate/function-menu's etc well... your product is just a few tiny steps away from being 'king of the hill'.... but these few fundamental things I found in just a few hours simple need to be changed... No doubt i'll find more.
other things are great - we all know that, but i say these things because I want to see SONAR really become a 100% super option for dance makers and currently even WITH the groove clip additions etc it still lacks some things CRITICAL to making this type of music for experienced users.
OK CHECK THIS OUT - CONTROVERTIAL MEBBE, BUT REALLY CHECK THIS:
i'd SERIOUSLY suggest that CAKE consider changing their traditional CLIP layout (slightly)
I mean this: In Cakewalk, when you create a pattern which is ONE bar long or TWO bars long... IF the pattern has it's last note falling on say beat 1.4 (4th beat in a 4/4 bar) then the resulting clip is NOT a full bar length, it visualy stops after the last note and doesn't extend to reach the next bar division
I think visualy for dancemusic where there is a HUGE emphasis on editing and creating linear arrangements with BLOCKS of data patterns, it is CRITICAL that clips fill bar divisions fully!... so the user can see full bars as full bars regardless of wether inside that full-bar clip the last note falls on which beat - that is irrelevent... when editing like that to create arrangements you want to see a pattern as a distinct block which represents what it is supposed to represent - A PATTERN OF 1 or 2 or whatever bars!!!...
IF a clip is LESS than a bar in length that is because you INTENTIONALY created a shorter clip... (we use alot of layered time sig' parts in dance often where the length of the clip is critical when editing blocks of patterns at zoom-out resolutions where the arrangment can be seen as an entity rather than zoomed in in isolation... DO YOU UNDERSTAND?...
If i create a 4/4 pattern and copy that over 32 bars, then create a 3/4 pattern which I want to copy so they play over each other as two layers, I expect the 3/4 pattern to VISUALY BE SHORTER THAN THE 4/4 PATTERN/CLIP - so that when I drag my 4/4 clips they BUTT-EDIT precisely at divisions of 4/4 bars - THEN my 3/4 clips ALSO BUTT-SPLICE/EDIT at THEIR relative lengths.... see? - the two are DISTINCTLY visible ralatively to each other in terms of their length... I DON'T want my 4/4 pattern blocks/clips to LOOK like they are something else.
PLEASE consider changing that it is HIGHLY HIGHLY irritating to go into piano roll - create a 4 on the floor kik drum pattern which is 1 BAR in length as a PATTERN (not as simple a visual block 'containing' notes), then I come out of edit to start to copy that clip of kik drums around , only to find it is NOT a full bar in length... sorry, but while your method works to some convoluted visual logic in reality, it's too peculiar to Cakewalk and doesn't follow internationsly accepted protocol of ALL other sequencers, AND simple, VISUALY the block/pattern/clip DOES NOT represent the length of pattern which is ULTRA important to migrating users from OTHER competitor sequencer... and WHY do the others all do it like that?.. because it's about PATTERN based editing... dance is all about that. PATTERNS AS BLOCKS/CLIPS and arranging those blocks.
CHANGE IT PLEASE!
another gripe (valid) is the wonderful PATTERN TOOL in piano roll got me really excited.. what a brilliant idea!!!!!!... then I discover I CANNOT (correct me if wrong) define the note LENGTH prior to 'brushing' in my row of notes with ease which means AFTERWARDS I have to fart about changing all the note lengths - PLEASE ADD A DEFINATION FOR LENGTH ASSIGN BEFORE BRUSHING IN NOTES - AND SORT OUT THE VELOCITY STUFF so that is fixed as I mentioned above.
Now don't worry... I DO have positive points, but like I said, this small few things i found in just a few hours is not good enuff for dance makers imo if you REALLY want to zone in and capture MORE of that market. I also compose ALOT of backing drums and production stuff over guitar & vocal guide tracks, and again, doing that work would be easier... alll work would be easier BUt for dance these things REALLY are critical to be fixed/changed
what I LOVE about SONAR is the windows protocol, the way opening a window is so smart and fast and screen estate is easy to use... no glitching screen sizes like in VST - in other ways SONAR is very like Logic... it is quite easy, BUT little things...
The idea for example to have a DEDICATED midi AND dxi/vsti track is good, but we need them tied together OBVIOUSLY - it's a good improvement to have that dialog when you create a dxi/vsti asking you if you want to create a sister track for the actual VSTi/dxi as well as the midi track etc, but I want to see those two relational tracks TIED TOGETHER so you move it around as one entity.
lastly I'm mystified as to why SONAR2 XL has no loops or audio content when SONAR1 XL did have a compliment of audio loops ??
PS. the FREE eq & compressor from timeworlks are excellent.
anyways... I'll see what else I can find...
But, have a strategy meeting, think about this market a bit... You still need to get this product more associated with dance makers.
So i'd suggest not only these critic's above (and no doubt I'll find more) but also the loop audio content?.. well if I missed it and there IS included loops with SONAR2 XL then perhaps do a deal with some of the sample houses to include a compliment of loops and samples... and sell SONAR as different DANCE PACKS
SONAR2 XL DRUM&BASS - SONAR2 XL BREAKS&BEATS - SONAR2 XL HOUSE - SONAR2 XL TECHNO - SONAR2 XL TRANCE etc and also add a few dxi's commensurate with those styles which differ mebbe from package to package - two DXi's you could seriously get included would be JUNO2X and JUNGLIST - they rock!!! - DR008 is a superb addition btw!! top-marks for that!! -
So mebbe the purchaser gets a cd of loops which differs according to your ordered package, the programme disk remains constant - those packages would each include also midi patterns for the PATTERN BRUSH which are in those package styles, so the newbie can quickly choose and draw in from say a variety of classic house/trance/techno etc hat grooves or percussion grooves or snare grooves etc... should be easy. It's pointless offering rock styles of drums or other MIDI patterns for a newbie 'dance' user who wants to open up SONAR and get going making some dance grooves - sure, they will gradualy invest in tools to compliment SONAR as they progress but again, it could take that little step FURTHER 'out of the box'
anyways, there's some feedback - dont take it bad cos in this post I choose to zone in on criticism's - SONAR was a huge & superb upgrade & we genuinely gave it a 'best product upgrade' rating at the time... and I know the user base is traditionaly NOT a dance user base - sonar gets alot of mentions on Cubase.net in comparisons of facilities but while lacking those dance-critical things I mention it'll not quite an SX/LOGIC killer 100% yet - it COULD SLAUGHTER THEM if you just spend some time getting feedback from dance makers rather than 'remixers' !
for example I was at a music show in the Uk recently where SONAR was being demo'd but with ROCK MUSIC!!!!!!... crowds would start to gather but the content was rather 'old skool' Rawk'n'Roll and they just faded away.
Now I personaly do NOt accept the reply when I mentioned this to someone that the particular show was geared at guitar equipment... yes alot of guitar stuff WAS there, but the halls were teeming with 14-16 year old teenage future punters... and IF they'd heard SONAR wacking out some cool garage or RnB, mebe people could walk up and lay down a vocal (kids are great performers, alot of them can really MC or sing ok) then they'd leave that show with SONAR in their brain associated with making music they want to make... I beleive more kids there were actualy spending time on the 'dj-kit' stands messing with decks or with kaoss pads or whatever, the biggest crowd was around the dj-section which was running a show... sure, guitarists WERE at the show, but alot of session guitarists actualy play rnb and commercial rnb crossover... there's little session work for rock cos BANDS make rock and tend to have full-time members... anyways, it could have been a different emphasis imo or at least some of each! - or for example there is some garage tracks around now in the uk which feature a rock guitar loop.... diversify & target the FUTURE customer to build the conciousness of SONAR as a product releated to OTHER styles besides rock/acoutic/jazz and any other 'musician' music
anyways..... velocity & division-critical clip editing at reasonable zoom-out resolutions etc, they are all hallmarks of dance arranging never mind other styles.
more to come...
Now already I went beserk cos the old drum map DIDN'T have a blasted grid!! - so did a few others and you changed it - great! - half the job tho is only done!
Why on EARTH didn't you guys follow that thru to it's natural conclusion ?
examples:
1. in the ARRANGE CLIP AREA - you have slip editing (drag/move) you have controller editing etc all live on that area... SO WHERE'S THE BLOODY GRID!!!!!!!
C'mon be serious for a moment, people working at 16th or 32nd or whatever resolutions NEED A GRID... AT LEAST when moving a clip there is not even a temp' vertical & horizontal line which tracks the clip so you can see WHERE you are moving it to by beats/divisions.
there is ABSOLUTELY as far as I can see, NO way to even roughly estimate the clip boundary or position of a clip when trying to move things by divisions of bars even 1/4 note divisions, never mind 16th notes! - Same for node placement.
that is rediculous... if I want to place the start node of a fade in or out, or a controller move to mebbe SEND to a delay, & I want that to begin at EXACTLY bar 34 on beat 3, division 4, (a 16th position mebbe) , then how on earth in the arrange area can I judge the positioning of that node?
2. what IS going on?... glaring oversights in the piano roll editor...tell me.. HOW EXACTLY do you change the velocity QUICKLY for notes in say chord work where multiple notes occur on the same beat?... NO, it is NOT acceptible to click and open a dialog box for each blasted note, type in a velocity or scroll one then close the box & repeat that for each note!... that's rediculous when you COULD have a velocity tool which you simpley drag up/down over a note to alter velocity like in the drum-map - there's no way to do it in the lower velocity/controller area... so that needs sorting out - that, FOR WORK, is the equivilent of having a door in a factory you have to walk thru 200 times per day and rather than it being a swinging door, it's a door with a lock/catch, which each time you need to walk thru it, you have to put down the box you're carrying, open the door, walk thru, close the door and pick up the box - daft!
and another moan
... the VELOCITY TAILS in the drum map?.... what a great idea!.. BUT - NO!!!... IF you zoom OUT enuff to see even a 2 bar pattern at 4/4 the blasted velocity tails DISSAPEAR!!!!!!!!!!! - WHAT USE IS THAT! - what?... I'm sposed to zoom IN and try and edit velocities while listening to a 2-bar or 4 bar loop while the screen is hopping around or the cursor is dissapearing off screen and only a small section of my pattern is visible?.. NO! - WRONG! - That MIGHT be ok for guitar or other rock music where mostly the user is mebbe laying down pads etc, but for dance music?.. NO WAY! - VELOCITY IS CRITICAL IN DANCE, and fine-editing velocities is one of the most performed tasks when composing - so sort THAT out.
other moans... grrrr.... well those 3 alone are enuff for me to say sadly NO, I COULDN'T SWITCH TO SONAR MYSELF YET, despite all the other great features because the most basic fundamental editing facilities are NOT correct YET
sorry... fix it... next version. try using some DANCE MAKERS for beta testing. There is still simply NO emphasis in the product for these users although the new drum map is a VERY good start & the audio groove clip thing scores again, but without velocity editing ability & clip/arrange editing grids etc at decent zoom-out resolutions it's pointless! -
it's like you are offering 'dance' abilities in a rather 'newbie' way if you do things like adding the groove-clips business but without the finder points added for more in-depth/advanced users in these genre of music-making - that's a shame
No grid on arrange area for editing clips and controllers.. for PRECISE placement of things... again, pointless - it defeats the whole purpose of having all those great abilities when they are reduced to being able to be used efficiently at only the most basic resolutions
I'd say pay heed to these moans... LOGIC is gone on PC, SX is often a pile of buggy junk or if not buggy version it still is characterised by tons of screen junk and litter while SONAR is 'zip' fast, and manages screen estate/function-menu's etc well... your product is just a few tiny steps away from being 'king of the hill'.... but these few fundamental things I found in just a few hours simple need to be changed... No doubt i'll find more.
other things are great - we all know that, but i say these things because I want to see SONAR really become a 100% super option for dance makers and currently even WITH the groove clip additions etc it still lacks some things CRITICAL to making this type of music for experienced users.
OK CHECK THIS OUT - CONTROVERTIAL MEBBE, BUT REALLY CHECK THIS:
i'd SERIOUSLY suggest that CAKE consider changing their traditional CLIP layout (slightly)
I mean this: In Cakewalk, when you create a pattern which is ONE bar long or TWO bars long... IF the pattern has it's last note falling on say beat 1.4 (4th beat in a 4/4 bar) then the resulting clip is NOT a full bar length, it visualy stops after the last note and doesn't extend to reach the next bar division
I think visualy for dancemusic where there is a HUGE emphasis on editing and creating linear arrangements with BLOCKS of data patterns, it is CRITICAL that clips fill bar divisions fully!... so the user can see full bars as full bars regardless of wether inside that full-bar clip the last note falls on which beat - that is irrelevent... when editing like that to create arrangements you want to see a pattern as a distinct block which represents what it is supposed to represent - A PATTERN OF 1 or 2 or whatever bars!!!...
IF a clip is LESS than a bar in length that is because you INTENTIONALY created a shorter clip... (we use alot of layered time sig' parts in dance often where the length of the clip is critical when editing blocks of patterns at zoom-out resolutions where the arrangment can be seen as an entity rather than zoomed in in isolation... DO YOU UNDERSTAND?...
If i create a 4/4 pattern and copy that over 32 bars, then create a 3/4 pattern which I want to copy so they play over each other as two layers, I expect the 3/4 pattern to VISUALY BE SHORTER THAN THE 4/4 PATTERN/CLIP - so that when I drag my 4/4 clips they BUTT-EDIT precisely at divisions of 4/4 bars - THEN my 3/4 clips ALSO BUTT-SPLICE/EDIT at THEIR relative lengths.... see? - the two are DISTINCTLY visible ralatively to each other in terms of their length... I DON'T want my 4/4 pattern blocks/clips to LOOK like they are something else.
PLEASE consider changing that it is HIGHLY HIGHLY irritating to go into piano roll - create a 4 on the floor kik drum pattern which is 1 BAR in length as a PATTERN (not as simple a visual block 'containing' notes), then I come out of edit to start to copy that clip of kik drums around , only to find it is NOT a full bar in length... sorry, but while your method works to some convoluted visual logic in reality, it's too peculiar to Cakewalk and doesn't follow internationsly accepted protocol of ALL other sequencers, AND simple, VISUALY the block/pattern/clip DOES NOT represent the length of pattern which is ULTRA important to migrating users from OTHER competitor sequencer... and WHY do the others all do it like that?.. because it's about PATTERN based editing... dance is all about that. PATTERNS AS BLOCKS/CLIPS and arranging those blocks.
CHANGE IT PLEASE!
another gripe (valid) is the wonderful PATTERN TOOL in piano roll got me really excited.. what a brilliant idea!!!!!!... then I discover I CANNOT (correct me if wrong) define the note LENGTH prior to 'brushing' in my row of notes with ease which means AFTERWARDS I have to fart about changing all the note lengths - PLEASE ADD A DEFINATION FOR LENGTH ASSIGN BEFORE BRUSHING IN NOTES - AND SORT OUT THE VELOCITY STUFF so that is fixed as I mentioned above.
Now don't worry... I DO have positive points, but like I said, this small few things i found in just a few hours is not good enuff for dance makers imo if you REALLY want to zone in and capture MORE of that market. I also compose ALOT of backing drums and production stuff over guitar & vocal guide tracks, and again, doing that work would be easier... alll work would be easier BUt for dance these things REALLY are critical to be fixed/changed
what I LOVE about SONAR is the windows protocol, the way opening a window is so smart and fast and screen estate is easy to use... no glitching screen sizes like in VST - in other ways SONAR is very like Logic... it is quite easy, BUT little things...
The idea for example to have a DEDICATED midi AND dxi/vsti track is good, but we need them tied together OBVIOUSLY - it's a good improvement to have that dialog when you create a dxi/vsti asking you if you want to create a sister track for the actual VSTi/dxi as well as the midi track etc, but I want to see those two relational tracks TIED TOGETHER so you move it around as one entity.
lastly I'm mystified as to why SONAR2 XL has no loops or audio content when SONAR1 XL did have a compliment of audio loops ??
PS. the FREE eq & compressor from timeworlks are excellent.
anyways... I'll see what else I can find...
But, have a strategy meeting, think about this market a bit... You still need to get this product more associated with dance makers.
So i'd suggest not only these critic's above (and no doubt I'll find more) but also the loop audio content?.. well if I missed it and there IS included loops with SONAR2 XL then perhaps do a deal with some of the sample houses to include a compliment of loops and samples... and sell SONAR as different DANCE PACKS
SONAR2 XL DRUM&BASS - SONAR2 XL BREAKS&BEATS - SONAR2 XL HOUSE - SONAR2 XL TECHNO - SONAR2 XL TRANCE etc and also add a few dxi's commensurate with those styles which differ mebbe from package to package - two DXi's you could seriously get included would be JUNO2X and JUNGLIST - they rock!!! - DR008 is a superb addition btw!! top-marks for that!! -
So mebbe the purchaser gets a cd of loops which differs according to your ordered package, the programme disk remains constant - those packages would each include also midi patterns for the PATTERN BRUSH which are in those package styles, so the newbie can quickly choose and draw in from say a variety of classic house/trance/techno etc hat grooves or percussion grooves or snare grooves etc... should be easy. It's pointless offering rock styles of drums or other MIDI patterns for a newbie 'dance' user who wants to open up SONAR and get going making some dance grooves - sure, they will gradualy invest in tools to compliment SONAR as they progress but again, it could take that little step FURTHER 'out of the box'
anyways, there's some feedback - dont take it bad cos in this post I choose to zone in on criticism's - SONAR was a huge & superb upgrade & we genuinely gave it a 'best product upgrade' rating at the time... and I know the user base is traditionaly NOT a dance user base - sonar gets alot of mentions on Cubase.net in comparisons of facilities but while lacking those dance-critical things I mention it'll not quite an SX/LOGIC killer 100% yet - it COULD SLAUGHTER THEM if you just spend some time getting feedback from dance makers rather than 'remixers' !
for example I was at a music show in the Uk recently where SONAR was being demo'd but with ROCK MUSIC!!!!!!... crowds would start to gather but the content was rather 'old skool' Rawk'n'Roll and they just faded away.
Now I personaly do NOt accept the reply when I mentioned this to someone that the particular show was geared at guitar equipment... yes alot of guitar stuff WAS there, but the halls were teeming with 14-16 year old teenage future punters... and IF they'd heard SONAR wacking out some cool garage or RnB, mebe people could walk up and lay down a vocal (kids are great performers, alot of them can really MC or sing ok) then they'd leave that show with SONAR in their brain associated with making music they want to make... I beleive more kids there were actualy spending time on the 'dj-kit' stands messing with decks or with kaoss pads or whatever, the biggest crowd was around the dj-section which was running a show... sure, guitarists WERE at the show, but alot of session guitarists actualy play rnb and commercial rnb crossover... there's little session work for rock cos BANDS make rock and tend to have full-time members... anyways, it could have been a different emphasis imo or at least some of each! - or for example there is some garage tracks around now in the uk which feature a rock guitar loop.... diversify & target the FUTURE customer to build the conciousness of SONAR as a product releated to OTHER styles besides rock/acoutic/jazz and any other 'musician' music
anyways..... velocity & division-critical clip editing at reasonable zoom-out resolutions etc, they are all hallmarks of dance arranging never mind other styles.
more to come...
Message 3/21 08-Dec-02 @ 01:01 AM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
any irritations or niggles you guys have?
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 4/21 08-Dec-02 @ 01:10 AM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
I can't argue with any of your criticisms, with the exception of the "packs". I don't like that idea at all.
I wish the Studioware Panels (I am HARPING on these things aren't I?) were better documented.
When minimizing a view to see another, I would like the minimized thing to remain ON TOP of the other view, so it is easy to go back and forth between views.
Let me go mess around a little and I'll find something else inconsequential.
I wish the Studioware Panels (I am HARPING on these things aren't I?) were better documented.
When minimizing a view to see another, I would like the minimized thing to remain ON TOP of the other view, so it is easy to go back and forth between views.
Let me go mess around a little and I'll find something else inconsequential.
Message 5/21 08-Dec-02 @ 02:42 AM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
Ya know, I've been using Cake since 1.1, a long time ago... Much of the stuff you mention I'd agree with, although, probably due to me having used it for so long, I hadn't really thought about most of those bits.
The lack of grid lines (other than full measure) in the clip/track view, well I've never really noticed. I just use the Move by/to function, BUT it would be handy sometimes, AND I do agree most other sequencer progs have that sort of thing standard. I mean you can setup a grid that has 1 measure resolution, why not 1/4 notes, 1/2 notes, etc., like you can in the piano roll? One can change the time sig to get tighter grid lines, but you should be able to do that without having to muck with the time signature....
It would be nice to be able to "bounce to a specified length MIDI clip," like, say you layout a 4/4 beat as K was saying and then you select the bits and do a "bounce to clip" with the ability to specify "exact length" or "full measure." That'd be really handy. I've just gotten used to doing the "move by" function and copy/pasting my clips to work around that issue. Same goes for being able to do different time sig clips, too.
Same with the "velocity tails" in the drum map. I still tend to use the "old method" of doing my velocity sweeps and so on using the velocity pane at the bottom of the piano roll. I can work fairly quick there without worrying too much about screen resolution. I can easily work on several bars at a time that way, adjusting velocity on the fly.... It still sucks for doing chords, as K points out, where you have several notes at the exact same time. You alter the velocity in the controller pane and it changes ALL the notes at that time. SO, you still have to do those by clicking each note individually, or by using the scale velocity function, or by using the MIDI FX Velocity command (least as far as I know that's the only ways of doing it).
The "Packs" idea, I'm indifferent to it. I really don't use that sort of thing much and as far as plugs, I have my own bits I prefer. However, I think for someone starting out, such stuff is useful and makes Sonar a better seller than if it didn't have 'em. As long as you can just buy the "straight up" version without the xtras, I dunna have any issues with it (look how well it worked for Acid, with their various versions geared toward specific kinds of users...).
Some good points, K. Things I just hadn't noticed as I've been "working around" the stuff for a long time. However, I do think they're on the right track. The stuff keeps gettin' better for sure... I just have to remember to check out some of the new features from time to time.
The lack of grid lines (other than full measure) in the clip/track view, well I've never really noticed. I just use the Move by/to function, BUT it would be handy sometimes, AND I do agree most other sequencer progs have that sort of thing standard. I mean you can setup a grid that has 1 measure resolution, why not 1/4 notes, 1/2 notes, etc., like you can in the piano roll? One can change the time sig to get tighter grid lines, but you should be able to do that without having to muck with the time signature....
It would be nice to be able to "bounce to a specified length MIDI clip," like, say you layout a 4/4 beat as K was saying and then you select the bits and do a "bounce to clip" with the ability to specify "exact length" or "full measure." That'd be really handy. I've just gotten used to doing the "move by" function and copy/pasting my clips to work around that issue. Same goes for being able to do different time sig clips, too.
Same with the "velocity tails" in the drum map. I still tend to use the "old method" of doing my velocity sweeps and so on using the velocity pane at the bottom of the piano roll. I can work fairly quick there without worrying too much about screen resolution. I can easily work on several bars at a time that way, adjusting velocity on the fly.... It still sucks for doing chords, as K points out, where you have several notes at the exact same time. You alter the velocity in the controller pane and it changes ALL the notes at that time. SO, you still have to do those by clicking each note individually, or by using the scale velocity function, or by using the MIDI FX Velocity command (least as far as I know that's the only ways of doing it).
The "Packs" idea, I'm indifferent to it. I really don't use that sort of thing much and as far as plugs, I have my own bits I prefer. However, I think for someone starting out, such stuff is useful and makes Sonar a better seller than if it didn't have 'em. As long as you can just buy the "straight up" version without the xtras, I dunna have any issues with it (look how well it worked for Acid, with their various versions geared toward specific kinds of users...).
Some good points, K. Things I just hadn't noticed as I've been "working around" the stuff for a long time. However, I do think they're on the right track. The stuff keeps gettin' better for sure... I just have to remember to check out some of the new features from time to time.
Message 6/21 08-Dec-02 @ 07:51 PM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
if thats all you can come up with k i would say they have a pretty tight product...
jamey
jamey
Message 7/21 09-Dec-02 @ 12:24 PM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
agreed - but p-lease... i want my grid and the rest... a velocity-tool would be fantastic
also why dont they use the right mouse click for pointer tools - that'd be good to assign a required tool to either mouse button.
all I'm saying here is stuff that'd make it 'perfect' - I think the above IS very relevent to potential cross-trading Logic users too!
also why dont they use the right mouse click for pointer tools - that'd be good to assign a required tool to either mouse button.
all I'm saying here is stuff that'd make it 'perfect' - I think the above IS very relevent to potential cross-trading Logic users too!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 9/21 09-Dec-02 @ 03:35 PM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
K,
I'm listening.
You have some great ideas in that message.
Do you think you could summarize that rant into an easily scannable list that I can bring with me to a feature discussion?
Thanks
I'm listening.
You have some great ideas in that message.
Do you think you could summarize that rant into an easily scannable list that I can bring with me to a feature discussion?
Thanks
Message 10/21 09-Dec-02 @ 05:14 PM - RE: SONAR 2 - things I dont like
Get to it k!
Thanks for paying attention Mr. Cakewalk, us users appreciate it, and dance musicians need to be heard!!! :-)
Thanks for paying attention Mr. Cakewalk, us users appreciate it, and dance musicians need to be heard!!! :-)
Pages: 1 2 3
There are 21 total messages for this topic
Reply to Thread
You need to register/login to use the forum.
Click here to Signup or Login !
[you'll be brought right back to this point after signing up]
Back to Forum
