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Forums - The lounge
Subject: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
Original Message 1/35 13-Jun-03 @ 08:36 AM Edit: 13-Jun-03 | 09:30 AM - Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
Anyone who's been here awhile knows my views on people bragging about using warez and copies or looking for such on K's site but, if he's not averse to an academic discussion on the matter I'd like to pose something of a question.
Some time ago a friend of mine mentioned that his father, a very successful business man, would "acquire" software and use it over a period of months, sometimes up to a year, to determine if it was stable and truly useful to him in his business. After a period of time he would make a decision and either move on to evaluate another piece of software or call the software company and request a license and documentation. Usually he would get some sort of a discount since he didn't need a packaged product. Also, he was never challenged regarding his somewhat unusual request. Some of the things my friend attributed to his father's financial success was honesty, integrity and an unwillingness to invest money in anything that didn't work or contribute to his business.
Considering how much software for professional use costs I have a hard time being critical of this approach. In addition, the current trend of releasing software that hasn't been thoroughly beta tested has softened my attitude (I'm reminded of my difficulties when Cubase VST32 was released). The key, obviously, is in the purchase of software that one intends on keeping after a thorough evaluation. If such purchases are not made then the software determined to be truly useful will go away and the user may be forced to turn to an inferior product, all becuase of not paying up after evaluation. The flip side is that software companies that choose to foist beta testing onto paying customers would be forced to reevaluate such practice or go out of business. So, what say the good folk of DT?
I know this may sound cheesy but I'd rather this thread not continue until K gives it his blessing (hopefully he'll see it) as an academic discussion especially considering his desire to sell product through DT. And please don't get on me about even bringing the subject up if I have doubts regarding its propriety. I bring it up because I respect the differing opinions here and believe it to be especially relevent considering the proliferation of file sharing and the aforementioned trend in the software industry. If K deems it inappropriate I would hope he simply deletes the post. Thanks.
Some time ago a friend of mine mentioned that his father, a very successful business man, would "acquire" software and use it over a period of months, sometimes up to a year, to determine if it was stable and truly useful to him in his business. After a period of time he would make a decision and either move on to evaluate another piece of software or call the software company and request a license and documentation. Usually he would get some sort of a discount since he didn't need a packaged product. Also, he was never challenged regarding his somewhat unusual request. Some of the things my friend attributed to his father's financial success was honesty, integrity and an unwillingness to invest money in anything that didn't work or contribute to his business.
Considering how much software for professional use costs I have a hard time being critical of this approach. In addition, the current trend of releasing software that hasn't been thoroughly beta tested has softened my attitude (I'm reminded of my difficulties when Cubase VST32 was released). The key, obviously, is in the purchase of software that one intends on keeping after a thorough evaluation. If such purchases are not made then the software determined to be truly useful will go away and the user may be forced to turn to an inferior product, all becuase of not paying up after evaluation. The flip side is that software companies that choose to foist beta testing onto paying customers would be forced to reevaluate such practice or go out of business. So, what say the good folk of DT?
I know this may sound cheesy but I'd rather this thread not continue until K gives it his blessing (hopefully he'll see it) as an academic discussion especially considering his desire to sell product through DT. And please don't get on me about even bringing the subject up if I have doubts regarding its propriety. I bring it up because I respect the differing opinions here and believe it to be especially relevent considering the proliferation of file sharing and the aforementioned trend in the software industry. If K deems it inappropriate I would hope he simply deletes the post. Thanks.
Message 2/35 13-Jun-03 @ 11:12 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
And then you have to cos you don't have the cash to buy.
And then the cost is pretty fixed across the world, possibly even cheaper in the US but does this mirror incomes, no, thats a barrier to entry.
And then the cost is pretty fixed across the world, possibly even cheaper in the US but does this mirror incomes, no, thats a barrier to entry.
Message 3/35 13-Jun-03 @ 12:47 PM Edit: 13-Jun-03 | 12:59 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
Its a tricky one that for sure.. Its an argument that's raged on and on and on....
To follow some of Micks points though; what other products would one be expected to pay for, with the justified expectation of receiving a fully working/fully functional product, only to find that it had not in all truth been quality control tested to the point where it can be deemed as fully fit for use? There aren't many that's for sure (if any at all)
This arguement alone doesn't advocate the use of piracy by a long shot, but clearly there are many things wrong with the model/attitudes in place within the software industry that has allowed this situation to worsen. Worsen to the level that some people DO genuinely feel justified in "evaluating" the software by any means necessary before chosing to make a purchase.. In some cases there's shareware, or demo copies but that doesn't really come close to covering it.
To be honest, I've gone off topic from Mick's original post to comment on the state of the industry, but what's also as important as talking about piracy, is that we should be asking ourselves about the quality of the software we ARE buying... Its all well and good eulogising about how good Logic, Sonar and SX are.. its another when those tools do NOT offer all of the promised functionality straight out of the box.. More often than not, the user pays for the developers/publishers testing costs, costs which should have been factored into the original project estimate and have since been swept aside..
Developing patches to fix the *occasional* bug or improve functionality is one thing. Developing patches the rectify major problems or flaws in the original design spec and developement is something else entirely..
To follow some of Micks points though; what other products would one be expected to pay for, with the justified expectation of receiving a fully working/fully functional product, only to find that it had not in all truth been quality control tested to the point where it can be deemed as fully fit for use? There aren't many that's for sure (if any at all)
This arguement alone doesn't advocate the use of piracy by a long shot, but clearly there are many things wrong with the model/attitudes in place within the software industry that has allowed this situation to worsen. Worsen to the level that some people DO genuinely feel justified in "evaluating" the software by any means necessary before chosing to make a purchase.. In some cases there's shareware, or demo copies but that doesn't really come close to covering it.
To be honest, I've gone off topic from Mick's original post to comment on the state of the industry, but what's also as important as talking about piracy, is that we should be asking ourselves about the quality of the software we ARE buying... Its all well and good eulogising about how good Logic, Sonar and SX are.. its another when those tools do NOT offer all of the promised functionality straight out of the box.. More often than not, the user pays for the developers/publishers testing costs, costs which should have been factored into the original project estimate and have since been swept aside..
Developing patches to fix the *occasional* bug or improve functionality is one thing. Developing patches the rectify major problems or flaws in the original design spec and developement is something else entirely..
Message 4/35 13-Jun-03 @ 02:53 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
I program computers for a living, so I'm definately on the anti-warez side of the fence. But I do exactly what Mick described, and I do it quite often. I don't think there's a problem with that in a perfect world, because you'd either pay or stop using the product.
The problem is that people continue to use the product but don't pay.
-Craig
The problem is that people continue to use the product but don't pay.
-Craig
Message 5/35 13-Jun-03 @ 03:32 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
Yonce N Mild
Posts: 286
Link?: No link
File?: No file
It depends on how you view right and wrong. Is it black and white or only shades of gray? technically using warez at all is stealing. I know people say you wouldn't buy a car without test driving it first, but you don't steal a car and drive it around for 6 months to a year to "thoroughly" test it before rolling into the dealership and saying I'll take it !! It is also difficult to truely evaluate a cracked version of software because you don't know if the bugs are real or just because it's cracked. I "evaluated" sonar 1.0 for about a year it would lock up occasionally and i got these annoying audio dropouts, since it was a cracked version I blamed the dropouts on that. Once I finally ordered Sonar 2.0 I found out that the dropouts were actually a legitimate bug in the software. some "evaluation" huh
Message 6/35 13-Jun-03 @ 05:45 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
I was under the impression that cracks dont usually have "bugs" as the code isnt altered except the protection scheme?
I was gonna wait til Kilo approved the thread, as mick suggested
I was gonna wait til Kilo approved the thread, as mick suggested
Message 7/35 13-Jun-03 @ 05:50 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
Do you honestly seeing k having a problem with us talking about this? nobody's promoting warez here, just questioning the standard model. Isn't that what we do here?
Message 8/35 13-Jun-03 @ 06:53 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
sounds like reasonable behaviour to me... you know for example from using a 'copy' of photoshop that it's stable as can be.
As an example of this theory, a mate of mine has a crack of SX he's evaluating (he owns legal boxed VST-5)... it's stable, no 'Poofs' - so i'd be more inclined to pay steinberg a fee and use a copy of that from hiim, than go out and buy it in a box & possibly get problems.
As an example of this theory, a mate of mine has a crack of SX he's evaluating (he owns legal boxed VST-5)... it's stable, no 'Poofs' - so i'd be more inclined to pay steinberg a fee and use a copy of that from hiim, than go out and buy it in a box & possibly get problems.
Message 9/35 13-Jun-03 @ 07:03 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
Yonce N Mild
Posts: 286
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File?: No file
the glitches from cracked software don't come from the progran itself but from the modifications that the crack makes to the system information or the registry in order to bypass the softwares security. I know using a cracked version of fm7 absolutly fucked my system up it took me two days to clean up just to make my pc useable again. then it took a complete os reinstall before all the problems went away.
Message 10/35 13-Jun-03 @ 07:25 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?
Yonce, I doubt it was the crack's fault... probably seemingly related but not. Because we prolly used the same crack and I had no problems with it 
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