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Forums - Synths & synthesis
Subject: More tb's please
Original Message Date: 10-Feb-99 @ 08:37 PM - More tb's please
Hi just one point about new factory sounds for os3.Can we please have more tb-303 sounds as these are an intergal component of almost all types of dance music. In the manual it says that one of the aims in the design of the supernova was the emulation of the 303. Yet there is only one convincing 303 sound "303 Dist".
Message 11/18 18-Feb-99 @ 03:25 PM - RE: More tb's please
To think that i bought the SN just to create 303 sounds on it when i have the original box as well is more sad than people who want to use what is perhaps the best and most versatile electronic sound ever created in their music. After all the main purpose of the SN was to recreate those analogue sounds that everbody needs with the ever increasing amount of control available on todays digital synths. Why is it that some people have a real problem with the 303 sound when they are entirelly happy to use any other old analogue gear that has been used and herd just as frequently as the 303 sound. I don't just want to see distorted 303's on the SN but many of the other great variations on the main 303 sound that the original box was capable of. The creativity is not to be found in the sound that you use and it's source but in the way you use the sound and it's place in the rest of the track. How's the future retro? I don't think that it is really an alternative to the 303 since it costs just as much as the real thing. I herd it recently on the FM cover cd and was'nt that impressed. I thought that the syntechno teebee was more realistic. As for rebirth thats all very well if you have a pc but not all of us use them. Granted rebirth is probabely the best emulator that i have yet to hear. But i wouldn't fancy doing any live work with it in a club.
cheers keep up the debate.
cheers keep up the debate.
Message 12/18 18-Feb-99 @ 06:24 PM - RE: More tb's please
I haven't heard the Syntechno teebee or the demo of the FR777 in Future Music, but the FR777 sounds exactly like the 303. I have Rebirth as well & it pales in comparison. The crisp fat warm animated sound is alive & well in the 7. I can get any 303 sound I've ever heard out of it; especially the familiar crunch when I ride the gain on the board. Personally, I don't create acid tracks. I'm in love with the 303's smooth bass. What I was getting at regarding the 777 as better solution than an actual TB 303 is all the extra features. This thing has 32 knobs & 7 switches, plus an EXCELLENT pattern sequencer. Did I mention it's also a true analog synth? 
Message 13/18 18-Feb-99 @ 06:27 PM - RE: More tb's please
Sorry, forgot to include my e-mail on the previous post: lostwire@aol.com
Message 14/18 19-Feb-99 @ 01:12 PM - RE: More tb's please
Hmm. This 303 issue really does seem to raise some passion doesn't it. I am sorry that Willy believed I was suggesting he was sad, I was not, my comment was more general and web discussions are not the place for personal abuse. However you will notice if you visit various web sites that, when ever a new analogue/physical modelling synth is released, the over riding concern of prospective punters seem to be its ability to imitate the common conception of the sound of the TB303.
Now in 1989, which I am more than old enough to remember, the sound of the 303 was fresh and exciting. It is a GREAT sound and I have spent many years and many, many nights luxuriating in the output of the little silver box. I would certainly not criticise it's use it is just it's dominance that I feel is negative.
I am confident that I am in no way alone in my view of the over use of the 303. My view comes, perhaps, from the fact that I have been listening to electronic 'dance' music for ten years or more and I am just plain bored to the teeth with that particular sound. I, and many I know, can be turned off an otherwise excellent track by the sudden rampant unleashing of the same old sound playing the same old riff or some insignificantly different variation of it. I have several hundred tracks on CD which would illustrate this point perfectly.
I doubt that anyone would, in fact, buy a SN purely for it's 303 sound. This would be a little silly as it's not that difficult to pick up a 303 and , whilst over priced, they are still a lot cheaper than the SN. I have a number of analogue and physical modelling synths that can, with some processing, produce a quite reasonable imitation of the 303. However, what gives the 303 a distinctive edge is not just the particular sound of it's 18db/oct filter or the Curtis chips used to implement it's design, it is its unpredictability and inherent instability of the unit that make the sound difficult to copy.
In fact the sound of all the classic 'vintage' synths was in some way dependent on the deficiency of their components and the design technology of the day, . It is precisely these deficiencies which have been engineered out of modern synths (a major selling point according to most manufacturers) which prevent them from faithfully mimicking their predecessors. You cannot reproduce the exact 303 sound because one 303 sounds different to another.
The points I have made are my own personal opinion and I am sure there are many people out there who still find the sound of the 303 exciting (if I'm in the crowd at Tribal Gathering, Return to the Source, Ultimate bass or any such place I still enjoy it too) but I could not accept that anyone using that sound was progressing their music or being innovative in any way. I know the feeling in the studio, 'listen to that... JUST LISTEN TO THAT !' but by the time it finds its way onto a recording it's just the same old sound that's been on countless thousands of tracks before.
Of course there is no reason why the SN should not have a few tired old 303 sounds in it's arsenal. Go on Phil, for those people who don't want to learn to program a synth, why not stick in a load more 303 sounds. It will probably help ship a few more units but will add absolutely nothing to the future of electronic music.
Paul
Now in 1989, which I am more than old enough to remember, the sound of the 303 was fresh and exciting. It is a GREAT sound and I have spent many years and many, many nights luxuriating in the output of the little silver box. I would certainly not criticise it's use it is just it's dominance that I feel is negative.
I am confident that I am in no way alone in my view of the over use of the 303. My view comes, perhaps, from the fact that I have been listening to electronic 'dance' music for ten years or more and I am just plain bored to the teeth with that particular sound. I, and many I know, can be turned off an otherwise excellent track by the sudden rampant unleashing of the same old sound playing the same old riff or some insignificantly different variation of it. I have several hundred tracks on CD which would illustrate this point perfectly.
I doubt that anyone would, in fact, buy a SN purely for it's 303 sound. This would be a little silly as it's not that difficult to pick up a 303 and , whilst over priced, they are still a lot cheaper than the SN. I have a number of analogue and physical modelling synths that can, with some processing, produce a quite reasonable imitation of the 303. However, what gives the 303 a distinctive edge is not just the particular sound of it's 18db/oct filter or the Curtis chips used to implement it's design, it is its unpredictability and inherent instability of the unit that make the sound difficult to copy.
In fact the sound of all the classic 'vintage' synths was in some way dependent on the deficiency of their components and the design technology of the day, . It is precisely these deficiencies which have been engineered out of modern synths (a major selling point according to most manufacturers) which prevent them from faithfully mimicking their predecessors. You cannot reproduce the exact 303 sound because one 303 sounds different to another.
The points I have made are my own personal opinion and I am sure there are many people out there who still find the sound of the 303 exciting (if I'm in the crowd at Tribal Gathering, Return to the Source, Ultimate bass or any such place I still enjoy it too) but I could not accept that anyone using that sound was progressing their music or being innovative in any way. I know the feeling in the studio, 'listen to that... JUST LISTEN TO THAT !' but by the time it finds its way onto a recording it's just the same old sound that's been on countless thousands of tracks before.
Of course there is no reason why the SN should not have a few tired old 303 sounds in it's arsenal. Go on Phil, for those people who don't want to learn to program a synth, why not stick in a load more 303 sounds. It will probably help ship a few more units but will add absolutely nothing to the future of electronic music.
Paul
Message 15/18 19-Feb-99 @ 09:25 PM - RE: More tb's please
Maybe the tb303 has become a "classic" electronic instrument in a similar way as concert instruments, a standard sound which everyone has in mind. We have strings, basses, soloist and... well, concert for piano and tb303 in a minor? And it happens the same as with acoustic instruments: only the real intrument sounds as the real instrument. It is not the sound but the fact that everyone does the same with it what makes it so tired... I ask myself why doesn´t Roland resell it.
Message 16/18 19-Feb-99 @ 11:26 PM - RE: More tb's please
I still maintain that just because you use a certain piece of gear in your music does not mean that you are holding back the advance of electronic music. My basic argument is that if it sound good use it no matter what it is a tb-303 or an industrial wallpaper stripper. If you can make a kicking tune out of it why not? The reason why many people myself included get so interested in a synths capability to mimic the various sounds of the 303. Is that it is a good indicator of the synths quality and capability to generate good electronic dance sounds. So many synth producers have tried and in my opinion failed to capture the true character of the tb. That if a synth eg the SN can pull of a convincing tb-noise/feel then it speaks volumes for that synth and it's chances of creating other authentic analogue sounds. My other point was that some people seem to have a real problem about the 303 being old and because it's from the past it has no place in the future of dance music. Usually the same people that use oodles of minimoog, DX7, 909, 707, 626,mc-202, sh101 and other various pieces of analogue gear that is just as old and has been used on just as many records as the 303. So are we really suggesting that be remove all of these sounds from dance music as well. Cause if we do all we'll be listining to is Silence. Good to hear about the 777 it's still a bit over priced though and FM cd's are never that reliable anyway. Paul as you have probably noticed i don't agree with much that you say although i do agree with two things. Firstly personal insults are pointless. I was'nt having a go at you either just expressing a point of view. Secondly passions do run high when the 303 subject is raised because we all have an opinion on it. This was the reason that i posted the subject in the first place to get some genuine discussion going.
cheers willy
PS. Where about are you guys from?
cheers willy
PS. Where about are you guys from?
Message 17/18 22-Feb-99 @ 12:40 PM - RE: More tb's please
Willy. I actually expect we would agree on a whole range of issues. However, perhaps jos(gc) does have a point in saying that perhaps the TB303 sound could be described as an instrument sound in it's own right.
My attraction to electronic music really comes from the fact that it does not use standard instrument sounds and the area I get most pleasure from is programming sounds on my synths. I only make music for a hobby which allows me the luxury of significantly more experimentation. The 303 has little attraction to me simply because it is extremely limited in its sonic capabilities (although I would not in any way deny the impact of that sound).
I don't think people should throw away the 303 or stop using it. I understand your point about other vintage synths but I suspect most people would find it soemwhat easier to indentify a 303 than the others you mention as it's sound is so distictive and so commonly used.
I've only used a 303 sound once in the 12 tracks I have finished, this came from my copy of rebirth. In the end I replaced it with something somewhat different from my Nord as it just sounded too familiar.
I am happy to just agree to disagree on this one. I shall be doing my best to avoid buying further CDs with searing filter swept TB303s but I am sure plenty of people will be happy to buy them.
I live in Southampton in the UK. I would include my email address but I am a customer support manager and my incoming email is automatically redistributed in my absense, which could be wildly in-approriate.
Paul
My attraction to electronic music really comes from the fact that it does not use standard instrument sounds and the area I get most pleasure from is programming sounds on my synths. I only make music for a hobby which allows me the luxury of significantly more experimentation. The 303 has little attraction to me simply because it is extremely limited in its sonic capabilities (although I would not in any way deny the impact of that sound).
I don't think people should throw away the 303 or stop using it. I understand your point about other vintage synths but I suspect most people would find it soemwhat easier to indentify a 303 than the others you mention as it's sound is so distictive and so commonly used.
I've only used a 303 sound once in the 12 tracks I have finished, this came from my copy of rebirth. In the end I replaced it with something somewhat different from my Nord as it just sounded too familiar.
I am happy to just agree to disagree on this one. I shall be doing my best to avoid buying further CDs with searing filter swept TB303s but I am sure plenty of people will be happy to buy them.
I live in Southampton in the UK. I would include my email address but I am a customer support manager and my incoming email is automatically redistributed in my absense, which could be wildly in-approriate.
Paul
Message 18/18 22-Feb-99 @ 12:40 PM - RE: More tb's please
Willy. I actually expect we would agree on a whole range of issues. However, perhaps jos(gc) does have a point in saying that perhaps the TB303 sound could be described as an instrument sound in it's own right.
My attraction to electronic music really comes from the fact that it does not use standard instrument sounds and the area I get most pleasure from is programming sounds on my synths. I only make music for a hobby which allows me the luxury of significantly more experimentation. The 303 has little attraction to me simply because it is extremely limited in its sonic capabilities (although I would not in any way deny the impact of that sound).
I don't think people should throw away the 303 or stop using it. I understand your point about other vintage synths but I suspect most people would find it soemwhat easier to indentify a 303 than the others you mention as it's sound is so distictive and so commonly used.
I've only used a 303 sound once in the 12 tracks I have finished, this came from my copy of rebirth. In the end I replaced it with something somewhat different from my Nord as it just sounded too familiar.
I am happy to just agree to disagree on this one. I shall be doing my best to avoid buying further CDs with searing filter swept TB303s but I am sure plenty of people will be happy to buy them.
I live in Southampton in the UK. I would include my email address but I am a customer support manager and my incoming email is automatically redistributed in my absense, which could be wildly in-approriate.
Paul
My attraction to electronic music really comes from the fact that it does not use standard instrument sounds and the area I get most pleasure from is programming sounds on my synths. I only make music for a hobby which allows me the luxury of significantly more experimentation. The 303 has little attraction to me simply because it is extremely limited in its sonic capabilities (although I would not in any way deny the impact of that sound).
I don't think people should throw away the 303 or stop using it. I understand your point about other vintage synths but I suspect most people would find it soemwhat easier to indentify a 303 than the others you mention as it's sound is so distictive and so commonly used.
I've only used a 303 sound once in the 12 tracks I have finished, this came from my copy of rebirth. In the end I replaced it with something somewhat different from my Nord as it just sounded too familiar.
I am happy to just agree to disagree on this one. I shall be doing my best to avoid buying further CDs with searing filter swept TB303s but I am sure plenty of people will be happy to buy them.
I live in Southampton in the UK. I would include my email address but I am a customer support manager and my incoming email is automatically redistributed in my absense, which could be wildly in-approriate.
Paul
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