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Forums - Music techology
Subject: bloody bass.................
Original Message Date: 31-May-05 @ 03:45 PM - bloody bass.................
Dominic
Posts: 1128
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In my humble opinion, BASS is the single most difficult area of club music production to master. I've tried everything…………different VSTi's including ESM, ESP, ES1, ES2, TRILOGY, ALBINO, PRO-53, FM7, ALBINO, TRIANGLE, the list goes on. No, I haven't just scrolled through presets………I've tried rolling my own.
I've tried writing basslines on all the octaves in all keys……..I've tried different settings on software compression, hardware compression, software distortion, hardware distortion, software overdrive, hardware overdrive, hi and low pass filters, cutting 40-50hz from the bottom end, layering, just using one oscillator, just using 2 oscillators, blah, blah, bloody blah……
What are you chaps using for bass? How can I get that phat sounding bass I hear on pro underground electronic house tracks……….? PLEASE…………………….I can do every other element (drums, leads, gated pads, SFX, mixing, production, limiting to a 7.5 out of 10 standard). I just cannot do bloody bass.......is there a secret VSTI?
I've tried writing basslines on all the octaves in all keys……..I've tried different settings on software compression, hardware compression, software distortion, hardware distortion, software overdrive, hardware overdrive, hi and low pass filters, cutting 40-50hz from the bottom end, layering, just using one oscillator, just using 2 oscillators, blah, blah, bloody blah……
What are you chaps using for bass? How can I get that phat sounding bass I hear on pro underground electronic house tracks……….? PLEASE…………………….I can do every other element (drums, leads, gated pads, SFX, mixing, production, limiting to a 7.5 out of 10 standard). I just cannot do bloody bass.......is there a secret VSTI?
Message 11/47 02-Jun-05 @ 08:17 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
Do a search on pongoid for threads relating to bass going back a ways, like a year or two at least. I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head, but in the archives I know I've explained this one a couple times. The operative words are "making room in the mix", and "efficiency". Honestly you don't want a tone that hogs up all the energy in your mix. Good luck.
Ape
Ape
Message 12/47 02-Jun-05 @ 09:52 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
i really need help too- ive been experimenting with getting the mid low cracked first- so often i try tweak my bass with a 100hz filter switched in on my mixer and when happy with the character bring the low end back in....
resonant high pass filters with some low mid scooped out with eq with quite hard compression have worked for me but have sometimes produced too low a bass where tyere seems to be a gap between the tune and the bass yet tuning it up an octave amkes it too high- blu heard this in one of my tracks and i can only imagine this would just ruin things at a club- i have a couple of peeps interested in tunes and i wanna make them club ready- (or at least be able to do a cd and a club mix) but am very wary of adding too much- i just try copy the tonal balanace of a club tune i like and hope for the best- unfortunatly with out big club speakers to listen on its impossible to know-
greg
resonant high pass filters with some low mid scooped out with eq with quite hard compression have worked for me but have sometimes produced too low a bass where tyere seems to be a gap between the tune and the bass yet tuning it up an octave amkes it too high- blu heard this in one of my tracks and i can only imagine this would just ruin things at a club- i have a couple of peeps interested in tunes and i wanna make them club ready- (or at least be able to do a cd and a club mix) but am very wary of adding too much- i just try copy the tonal balanace of a club tune i like and hope for the best- unfortunatly with out big club speakers to listen on its impossible to know-
greg
Message 13/47 03-Jun-05 @ 08:58 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
Dominic
Posts: 1128
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Thanks for all the input chaps. Cutting at 100hz works superbly. That's exactly what I was looking for. At last...............................horray! Now, where am I going to find my next excuse................
Message 14/47 03-Jun-05 @ 09:32 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
sorry dom what did you do? was it a high pass or a roll off and what kind of slope- i recently followed a few eq tips which talked about rolling off freqs from drum hits i often found the roll off too steep sounding even at -12/bd..so would be interested to hear which slope you used and how much you took off....
greg
greg
Message 15/47 03-Jun-05 @ 09:58 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
Dominic
Posts: 1128
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Hi mate
Well I ended up going with a Logic Lo-Cut @ 100 hz. I tried using a Logic Hi Pass @ 100hz but it makes the bass audio track red line by over 3 db which meant I had to pull the fader down by nearly 4 db. This didn't happen when using the Lo-cut plug (I didn't have to move the fader). Plus I prefered how the Lo-Cut plug sounded. Now I can move the mackie fader up by around-about +4 db and get that phatt, thick sound I was looking for.
Well I ended up going with a Logic Lo-Cut @ 100 hz. I tried using a Logic Hi Pass @ 100hz but it makes the bass audio track red line by over 3 db which meant I had to pull the fader down by nearly 4 db. This didn't happen when using the Lo-cut plug (I didn't have to move the fader). Plus I prefered how the Lo-Cut plug sounded. Now I can move the mackie fader up by around-about +4 db and get that phatt, thick sound I was looking for.
Message 16/47 03-Jun-05 @ 10:35 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
cool ill look into what slope the logic lo-cut plug is using- im not a logic user but do have a copy- this reminds me of a tip i once heard about using this lowcut plug and then using something called 'autofilter' to bring a clear resonance back in below the cut- imma gonna try this when my setup is back together- i for one was having major headroom issues in that my kicks were always balanaced yet took up so much of the tracks headroom i could never compress beats as a whole or anything like that- now realise my kicks just have far too much energy and have been carving the shite outta them.....now if i could just get that daft punk/house bass/bd combo sound ill be happy- played together the two just eat each other!!
greg
greg
Message 17/47 03-Jun-05 @ 11:32 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
Dominic
Posts: 1128
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Yeah, I had that problem for ages. I was A/Bing my tracks (as I mixed them) with my favourite tracks of CD recorded into an audio track in Logic. I was pulling my hair out at trying to match the levels of my drums with the drums off the CD tracks. I would end up having the kick too loud and it never sounded like the pro tracks. Then I learnt about limiting via the adaptive limiter in Logic and finally realised how they were getting those sorts of level/volumes to CD.
Now I mix to +3db on my Mackie, push the mix through my Mixmaster, out the Mixmaster and digitally into Logic. Then I wack the Logic Adaptive Limiter over the mix and dither down to 16 bits ready for CD. My tracks sound the same level and have the same punch as commercially available music now.
LIMITING is the key. I wasted 3 years getting depressed about why I couldn't get my tracks sounding phatt like other producers. Stupid of me really. LIMITING is sooo important to the final sound.
Now I mix to +3db on my Mackie, push the mix through my Mixmaster, out the Mixmaster and digitally into Logic. Then I wack the Logic Adaptive Limiter over the mix and dither down to 16 bits ready for CD. My tracks sound the same level and have the same punch as commercially available music now.
LIMITING is the key. I wasted 3 years getting depressed about why I couldn't get my tracks sounding phatt like other producers. Stupid of me really. LIMITING is sooo important to the final sound.
Message 18/47 03-Jun-05 @ 11:55 AM - RE: bloody bass.................
really? thats cool- ive been messing with some tips from breet b here and one from the waves site which shows you how to get maximum volume without resorting to limiting- im gonna have to try this some more- nevere really cracked it-
you mix at +3db?!?!?!? i was always told to stay below 0 so i generally have my kicks between -3 and -6 build around that to have the whole track peaking at just below zero- i still find that the kick is taking up most of the room- so one more q- how much gain reduction are your getting when you limit your mix? if its a case of coaxing say another 6db by limiting the kick and bringing it all back up then i think im on the right track- is this what your aiming to do??? limit your big arse kick down so the rest of the track can come up? im hoping so cos then i think i may have also finally got the hang of it....
ive been in a funk for years too- all production/sound based...always had the ideas but my sound was (and still is in places) so lacking in depth, thickness and sheen....finally got my head round compressing properly and also realised my monitoring set up was all but killing my top end and accueating my mid range and this kick.bass element was the final thing that was getting me (well apart from a particular bass sound) so i cant wait to try this on my new track, ill work as normal and then hope to do what you say afterwards with the waves l1 or l2....
any tunes up? would like to hear some
greg
you mix at +3db?!?!?!? i was always told to stay below 0 so i generally have my kicks between -3 and -6 build around that to have the whole track peaking at just below zero- i still find that the kick is taking up most of the room- so one more q- how much gain reduction are your getting when you limit your mix? if its a case of coaxing say another 6db by limiting the kick and bringing it all back up then i think im on the right track- is this what your aiming to do??? limit your big arse kick down so the rest of the track can come up? im hoping so cos then i think i may have also finally got the hang of it....
ive been in a funk for years too- all production/sound based...always had the ideas but my sound was (and still is in places) so lacking in depth, thickness and sheen....finally got my head round compressing properly and also realised my monitoring set up was all but killing my top end and accueating my mid range and this kick.bass element was the final thing that was getting me (well apart from a particular bass sound) so i cant wait to try this on my new track, ill work as normal and then hope to do what you say afterwards with the waves l1 or l2....
any tunes up? would like to hear some
greg
Message 19/47 03-Jun-05 @ 01:59 PM - RE: bloody bass.................
However, gently hi passing at 100 seems to clean up my stuff no end.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
what do mean by gently- last time i highpassed anything so high i lost too much bass...are you talking a couple of dbs?
greg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
what do mean by gently- last time i highpassed anything so high i lost too much bass...are you talking a couple of dbs?
greg
Message 20/47 03-Jun-05 @ 08:20 PM - RE: bloody bass.................
Let's get our terminology straight, folks.
hi-pass and lo-cut are the same type of filter. There is no dB gain parameter, simply a cutoff point and a slope, and it can never be a boost, only a cut. A "gentle" hi-pass/lo-cut would be 6dB/octave. A "hard" one would be 24dB or more per octave. But even with such a simple definition on paper, I find that many EQ plugins sound quite different at the exact same settings. Experiment.
Shelving filters are similar, but do not have a continuous slope down to inifinite. It will slope below the given frequency (or above for a hi shelf), at a rate according to the Q parameter, to a level defined by the gain parameter. Unlike pass/cut filters, shelving can be either a boost or a cut.
Generally, I like to keep the 50-80Hz clear for the kick, so I'll do a gentle (6dB/oct) locut below 80Hz (sorry influx, there's just not that much useable info down there... you said it yourself, the lowest fundamental on a regular E-bass is 60Hz, you should at least roll off below there). But this is not a hard and fast rule by any means.
hi-pass and lo-cut are the same type of filter. There is no dB gain parameter, simply a cutoff point and a slope, and it can never be a boost, only a cut. A "gentle" hi-pass/lo-cut would be 6dB/octave. A "hard" one would be 24dB or more per octave. But even with such a simple definition on paper, I find that many EQ plugins sound quite different at the exact same settings. Experiment.
Shelving filters are similar, but do not have a continuous slope down to inifinite. It will slope below the given frequency (or above for a hi shelf), at a rate according to the Q parameter, to a level defined by the gain parameter. Unlike pass/cut filters, shelving can be either a boost or a cut.
Generally, I like to keep the 50-80Hz clear for the kick, so I'll do a gentle (6dB/oct) locut below 80Hz (sorry influx, there's just not that much useable info down there... you said it yourself, the lowest fundamental on a regular E-bass is 60Hz, you should at least roll off below there). But this is not a hard and fast rule by any means.
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