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Forums - The lounge
Subject: Faith
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 19
Original Message Date: 24-Sep-02 @ 05:37 AM - Faith
Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...
I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)
I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.
Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.
I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.
And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.
This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?
Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...
Dave
p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...
I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)
I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.
Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.
I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.
And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.
This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?
Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...
Dave
p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...
Message 21/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:50 PM - RE: Faith
Perhaps it came off that way, but all I really wanted is insight to deeper truths, if that makes any sense. I find this often comes through friendly debate, and a debate usually requires a differing opinion. I know a lot of people share my view of the world around here, so I called out to those who I know didn't. Know what I mean?
Certainly share anything you're willing to share. As long as it's about you, I'm interested. I'm not looking to be converted, nor to convert. I don't agree with evangelism. I do think we have a lot of common ground here, though, and that's what interests me the most...
psylichon
Certainly share anything you're willing to share. As long as it's about you, I'm interested. I'm not looking to be converted, nor to convert. I don't agree with evangelism. I do think we have a lot of common ground here, though, and that's what interests me the most...
psylichon
Message 22/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:56 PM - RE: Faith
Scott Digweed
Posts: 6
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Born and raised as a Roman Catholic, but I had influences from other faiths such as Hinduism, Judaism, and Christianity. And Aetheism too.
Truth is I don't think much about religeon anymore. Now that I don't worry about it, or any commitments, I have found peace, in that respect.
The most powerful feelings of love I have ever felt when listening to really great Trance music. And I do not use drugs. I can have the most profound reactions to Trance, it's like somebody or something inside the melodies and rhythmic beds that speaks to me. And my soul. It can be an incredible experience, unlike any other. Even better than an orgasm, possibly.
Scott
Truth is I don't think much about religeon anymore. Now that I don't worry about it, or any commitments, I have found peace, in that respect.
The most powerful feelings of love I have ever felt when listening to really great Trance music. And I do not use drugs. I can have the most profound reactions to Trance, it's like somebody or something inside the melodies and rhythmic beds that speaks to me. And my soul. It can be an incredible experience, unlike any other. Even better than an orgasm, possibly.
Scott
Message 23/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:58 PM - RE: Faith
Scott Digweed
Posts: 6
Link?: No link
File?: No file
With that said, I have faith in myself and in my abilities. For one day, I will acheive what I have always dreamed of.
Scott
Scott
Message 24/188 24-Sep-02 @ 07:31 PM - RE: Faith
I was raised a catholic in a fairly devout family. We did not always attend mass but my mother was convinced. And we always went to important mass. I spent my childhood convinced of the inadequacy of my family religion. I cannot identify a time when I thought, "What a bunch of hooey" for the first time. I think I always thought that!
My disatisfaction with my family religion sent me a searchin' about the same time as the other rebellions I perpetrated, started about 13. This was the first time I did LSD as well, and I won't pretend that didn't have something to do with it. The drug experience broke down what I even saw then as my ego, or sense of the individual. I started opening my mind to what I'd always known, that there is no duality in our experience. Time is an easily indentified human construct, but the next step was the passing of events, one into the other... memories were all I had to verify the past and everyone had a different impression of them. So it became clear through my teenage years that there was only the immediacy of the moment, and everything else was illusion. Obviously this didn't jibe with my christian roots, so I discarded them. I spent several months with a Hopi Shaman taking mushrooms and peyote, finding my spirit animal etc... This had many lessons in immediacy but still imposed a concept of the universe that smacked of myth...
Unfortunately my beliefs also didn't allow for much personal responsibility and I spent 10 years of my life refusing to take any. I treated people badly and very selfishly because the moment was all there was. Then I had an epiphany, where I discovered that my behaviour was not bringing any lasting happiness. I met a teacher who casualy explained one evening that since there is no duality in our experience, then we can have no contempt for one another... like one hand hating the other. He was a tibetan Rinpoche I'd met through a friend. There's a long assed story in this that doesn't need going into here. Now I practice a form of Tibetan Buddhism... I try to be completely aware and present in each moment and remember to love everything as equal. This view brings up a naturaly flowing compassion, understanding there is no seperation or dichotomy between this and that... blah blah blah
My take on christianity, and why I left it? It has a creator. The creator god takes responsibility for this mess out of my hands. It's someone elses fault that sh*t's so f*cked up! And here's a handy mesiah figure connected directly to the source who, if I will just shrug off my sense of personal responsibility, will take care of everything! Through this view I feel we dig ourselves deeper into a pit of misunderstanding... which ultimately makes us unhappy!
I don't preach or share this unless asked, because I'm staunchly opposed to evangelism! I understand that other religions require witnessing and mission work, and respect first attempts at it...
e
My disatisfaction with my family religion sent me a searchin' about the same time as the other rebellions I perpetrated, started about 13. This was the first time I did LSD as well, and I won't pretend that didn't have something to do with it. The drug experience broke down what I even saw then as my ego, or sense of the individual. I started opening my mind to what I'd always known, that there is no duality in our experience. Time is an easily indentified human construct, but the next step was the passing of events, one into the other... memories were all I had to verify the past and everyone had a different impression of them. So it became clear through my teenage years that there was only the immediacy of the moment, and everything else was illusion. Obviously this didn't jibe with my christian roots, so I discarded them. I spent several months with a Hopi Shaman taking mushrooms and peyote, finding my spirit animal etc... This had many lessons in immediacy but still imposed a concept of the universe that smacked of myth...
Unfortunately my beliefs also didn't allow for much personal responsibility and I spent 10 years of my life refusing to take any. I treated people badly and very selfishly because the moment was all there was. Then I had an epiphany, where I discovered that my behaviour was not bringing any lasting happiness. I met a teacher who casualy explained one evening that since there is no duality in our experience, then we can have no contempt for one another... like one hand hating the other. He was a tibetan Rinpoche I'd met through a friend. There's a long assed story in this that doesn't need going into here. Now I practice a form of Tibetan Buddhism... I try to be completely aware and present in each moment and remember to love everything as equal. This view brings up a naturaly flowing compassion, understanding there is no seperation or dichotomy between this and that... blah blah blah
My take on christianity, and why I left it? It has a creator. The creator god takes responsibility for this mess out of my hands. It's someone elses fault that sh*t's so f*cked up! And here's a handy mesiah figure connected directly to the source who, if I will just shrug off my sense of personal responsibility, will take care of everything! Through this view I feel we dig ourselves deeper into a pit of misunderstanding... which ultimately makes us unhappy!
I don't preach or share this unless asked, because I'm staunchly opposed to evangelism! I understand that other religions require witnessing and mission work, and respect first attempts at it...
e
Message 26/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:19 PM - RE: Faith
Wow, errata, I can really relate to your story. Duality is an amazing illusion, to be sure. "One hand hating the other".... very nice. I've never heard it put that way.
Have you ever read Joseph Cambell's "The Power of Myth"?
This goes to anyone, not just e.
psylichon
Have you ever read Joseph Cambell's "The Power of Myth"?
This goes to anyone, not just e.
psylichon
Message 27/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:19 PM - RE: Faith
sure, that's valid. there's nomadic religions
where the shaman will eat the sacrement,
errrrrrrrr, mushrooms, and the hallucinogens
will pass unchanged in the shaman's urine,
but he will absorb the toxins. the tribe will then
drink his piss for their buzz, errrrrrrrrrr,
religious experience.
mmm, piss. :-)
where the shaman will eat the sacrement,
errrrrrrrr, mushrooms, and the hallucinogens
will pass unchanged in the shaman's urine,
but he will absorb the toxins. the tribe will then
drink his piss for their buzz, errrrrrrrrrr,
religious experience.
mmm, piss. :-)
Message 28/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:21 PM - RE: Faith
that is so ugly.
reading web trip reports on salvia d. one will encounter a tale of sinking into a floor made of packed fish. this runs parallel with chardin's eschatological hypothesis.. a universe completely made of life. i feel this is concurrent with the 'oneness' reports of people who align themselves with buddhism, et al. or with jamey's glee pals. "and i was filled with ecclasiastical glee"
i've been to a place where i felt more than anything, as a cell in a plant whose boundaries were beyond my perception, and great currents, as if the plant were swaying in a breeze. each cell was crying out in utter joy to the other cells, like those little sounds in that plateau track off spacecake.
sardines. no room for not-life.
hell, i've met an angel that came down out of the sky making a noise like two giant phasing turbine engines. crossed into other times and places. i've flown the trans love airways and got there on time, outside and sideways through time even.
i look at the world, and i see it devouring itself. i look at the things society promotes. take pleasure, enjoy life. i've worked in nursing homes and met people who looked really very much like they wanted more and were about to run out. i have met so many people who han't had any of these thoughts who seem very interested in aggrandising the physical experience.
the mother bending over her baby in the carriage.. thinking she was all alone.. or maybe letting me see. tickling her baby, until the baby is screaming, the baby is SCREAMING STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP TICKLING MEEEEE!!!! and the mother is going.. 'the tiger has got you..' she knows she has incensed her child into awareness of discomfort, trapped her child within misery, the world experience. her child will live now..
(i didn't.. i came back to help you see this.. really. died at childbirth)
my hypothesis is that life, this, serves a destructive function.. to trap the life cells within bodies and convince them they are real, so the life force is convinced of it's own mortality. flushing out the soul glut perhaps, god knows why, the world experience cycles round every so often.
but this is a hypothesis. it makes about as much sense as an afterlife you have to qualify for.
i certainly am not enthused by religions that run around proclaiming the need for abundant life.. go sit in a tub full of meal worms if you want that. life can get so nasty so fast i think you have to be really careful of it.. if i were caught promoting any sort of life whatsoever, it would be a discerning life..
i reckon river forest was right and the bacteria have got you all producing a poisonous planet they can thrive in.
because basically, you're boring the pants off of me. or you'd like to.. i've had all the experiences.. all of them.. and i reckon anyone speaking with any absolutes in mind is basically crippled.. like you know something? not really, matey, not really.
again, the matrix.. boooring.. true, illusion.. true, l. ron.. spring into action! jump, kick, parappa! aesthetogenesis cultivar a: just do it!
cultivar b: only with extreme forethought.
well, i don't know why, but all those images were there together, so they muust go together... uuh.. drool a little.. matrix cool
i said all of the x-periences. done it once, done it twice. the third time, i saw jesus, he was mexican, we went out swing dancing/dadaistic mind explosion techniques and i sort of came out feeling like a cali cuisine place when i should have been feeling thai. "next time i see god, i think i'll wear the red one.. have you seen my bronze sun medallion?"
which is like, i can do this thai or kali, works with bread and beans as well, so sod the lot i'm having tea.
awareness and doubt comprises my device. the world, all experience is a shrinky dink in comparison.
you see, with xian.. a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.. slip 'em 9 parts be kind to your neighbors and flyin thru space and 1 part rally to the xian cheer, rally, rally now..
that's the thing. xianity is a religion, and if a religion were anything real then there'd be no need to inform others.
isn't that a novel statement tho, like i said, dull. and robots. robots too.
you want cosmology, let's have a type-in bee.
i got no problem with what sort of lies you want to live by, except for when the plate goes round and you start hacking off little bits of my world and saying 'oh this is our themepark, you can't go here anymore.' persecute the christians. persecute anyone who is anything, because when it comes time to do the change up dance, they're the ones who are going to be pissing and moaning.
because you're crap to live with, that's why. bloody steeples all over the place. stupid cold weather.
reading web trip reports on salvia d. one will encounter a tale of sinking into a floor made of packed fish. this runs parallel with chardin's eschatological hypothesis.. a universe completely made of life. i feel this is concurrent with the 'oneness' reports of people who align themselves with buddhism, et al. or with jamey's glee pals. "and i was filled with ecclasiastical glee"
i've been to a place where i felt more than anything, as a cell in a plant whose boundaries were beyond my perception, and great currents, as if the plant were swaying in a breeze. each cell was crying out in utter joy to the other cells, like those little sounds in that plateau track off spacecake.
sardines. no room for not-life.
hell, i've met an angel that came down out of the sky making a noise like two giant phasing turbine engines. crossed into other times and places. i've flown the trans love airways and got there on time, outside and sideways through time even.
i look at the world, and i see it devouring itself. i look at the things society promotes. take pleasure, enjoy life. i've worked in nursing homes and met people who looked really very much like they wanted more and were about to run out. i have met so many people who han't had any of these thoughts who seem very interested in aggrandising the physical experience.
the mother bending over her baby in the carriage.. thinking she was all alone.. or maybe letting me see. tickling her baby, until the baby is screaming, the baby is SCREAMING STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP TICKLING MEEEEE!!!! and the mother is going.. 'the tiger has got you..' she knows she has incensed her child into awareness of discomfort, trapped her child within misery, the world experience. her child will live now..
(i didn't.. i came back to help you see this.. really. died at childbirth)
my hypothesis is that life, this, serves a destructive function.. to trap the life cells within bodies and convince them they are real, so the life force is convinced of it's own mortality. flushing out the soul glut perhaps, god knows why, the world experience cycles round every so often.
but this is a hypothesis. it makes about as much sense as an afterlife you have to qualify for.
i certainly am not enthused by religions that run around proclaiming the need for abundant life.. go sit in a tub full of meal worms if you want that. life can get so nasty so fast i think you have to be really careful of it.. if i were caught promoting any sort of life whatsoever, it would be a discerning life..
i reckon river forest was right and the bacteria have got you all producing a poisonous planet they can thrive in.
because basically, you're boring the pants off of me. or you'd like to.. i've had all the experiences.. all of them.. and i reckon anyone speaking with any absolutes in mind is basically crippled.. like you know something? not really, matey, not really.
again, the matrix.. boooring.. true, illusion.. true, l. ron.. spring into action! jump, kick, parappa! aesthetogenesis cultivar a: just do it!
cultivar b: only with extreme forethought.
well, i don't know why, but all those images were there together, so they muust go together... uuh.. drool a little.. matrix cool
i said all of the x-periences. done it once, done it twice. the third time, i saw jesus, he was mexican, we went out swing dancing/dadaistic mind explosion techniques and i sort of came out feeling like a cali cuisine place when i should have been feeling thai. "next time i see god, i think i'll wear the red one.. have you seen my bronze sun medallion?"
which is like, i can do this thai or kali, works with bread and beans as well, so sod the lot i'm having tea.
awareness and doubt comprises my device. the world, all experience is a shrinky dink in comparison.
you see, with xian.. a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.. slip 'em 9 parts be kind to your neighbors and flyin thru space and 1 part rally to the xian cheer, rally, rally now..
that's the thing. xianity is a religion, and if a religion were anything real then there'd be no need to inform others.
isn't that a novel statement tho, like i said, dull. and robots. robots too.
you want cosmology, let's have a type-in bee.
i got no problem with what sort of lies you want to live by, except for when the plate goes round and you start hacking off little bits of my world and saying 'oh this is our themepark, you can't go here anymore.' persecute the christians. persecute anyone who is anything, because when it comes time to do the change up dance, they're the ones who are going to be pissing and moaning.
because you're crap to live with, that's why. bloody steeples all over the place. stupid cold weather.
Message 29/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:36 PM - RE: Faith
x - Do you really live like that or just have glimpses of it on more occasions than yer average joe? I mean, obviously one can't be dead to the world or they can't participate in it. Unless trancendental interference is the reason for your lame net connection, I'm assuming you're still with us, xoxos. Where's the line between your life and death? And why do you keep coming back?
psylichon
psylichon
Message 30/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:36 PM - RE: Faith
psychonil i suggest before you set about magnaminously solving poor old xoxos' problem with your incisive cross questioning you read the entirety of what i write instead of jumping to the parts that get you excited.
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