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Original Message Date: 09-Mar-03 @ 07:42 AM - free will

psylichon

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Does it exist? Is it an illusion? I can't find an argument, either philosophical or logical, that even begins to demonstrate its existence. Is abandoning free will a cop-out? Is belief in it humanity's main mistake?

I have a LOT to say on this, but I'm gonna leave it for now. Mainly because I'm just curious what my fellow DT'ers think.

psy

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Message 21/34 11-Mar-03 @ 12:51 AM - RE: free will

psylichon

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The problem as I see it at this point in my life is this: people have a hard time holding two things which seem incongruous in their head, two opposites, even though those two things are required to describe the whole. It always has to be one or the other with us. We talk about grey areas in matter of love, war, life, death, all matters social, but when it comes to a matter as important as free will, we say it has to be one way or the other.

I won't even dealve into the quantum mechanical analogies, because the dualities that exist there fill many volumes. If you want empirical proof of the prevalance of dualities in the universe (perhaps its defining characteristic), the history of quantum mechanics is a good start.

Therefore, I think it is possible for us to have, for all intents and purposes, free will in the material world. This is an illusion, but one that works, much like all of the subatomic world.

I think you will perceive free will until the day you die. At that point, things won't seem so linear and causal. People refer to their "life flashing before their eyes"... time loses meaning. At this point you can see your place in the universe from god's point of view... the eternal view. Until the point of your death, I think you have to live in the reality that in this material world, you are perceived responsible for your actions. You're not, but that only matters in the eternal.

This view does not remove personal responsibility. There are still prices to pay for every action. But as a society leans towards such a viewpoint, however, I think the recognition that all action stems from the eternal will guide personal decisions down the right path. More and more trancendental people with the ability to hold dualities viscerally are what is needed to guide societies to the world of the philosopher rulers.

If murder were made legal tomorrow, would you go kill anyone? Why not? Because you are being guided by more than just "free will."

psy

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Message 22/34 11-Mar-03 @ 12:53 AM - RE: free will

psylichon

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and re: past experiences.

living in the past is mankind's #1 illness.

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Message 23/34 11-Mar-03 @ 01:05 AM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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"Past experiences are based in the actions we took in the past"

So if a dog comes up from behind and bites you when you are four and you end up having a fear of dogs that makes you act irrationally when you are around them, that is your fault?

I also agree that this does not take away the need for personal responsibility. Just because our behaviour is heavily influenced by experience and emotion, does not mean that we have no control over it whatsoever. Although, in the case of a psychotic murderer, they are mentally ill and usually do not have any control as their mind doesn't work correctly.

"people have a hard time holding two things which seem incongruous in their head"

Very true. But surely the concept of truly free will involves the idea that we are in complete control. Not half in control and half behaving as result of various influences, which I feel is the case.

"If murder were made legal tomorrow, would you go kill anyone? Why not? Because you are being guided by more than just "free will.""

Yup!

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 24/34 11-Mar-03 @ 01:16 AM Edit: 11-Mar-03 | 01:17 AM - RE: free will

bedwyr

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can i grab her arse now? and does anybody know the fate of the recently freed willy? he was a fish you know, hmm, mammal.

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Message 25/34 11-Mar-03 @ 01:53 AM - RE: free will

pict

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If you set yourself up in direct confrontation with your desires you're on to a loser,you can only overcome your instincts with reason a faculty that has possibly atrophied beyond recovery in the West.

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Message 26/34 11-Mar-03 @ 06:16 AM - RE: free will

psylichon

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should you overcome your instincts though? Shouldn't you follow your bliss? I believe the true guidance for your life flows from within, and only there can you find the answers for the decisions in your life. Isn't that why we do music?

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Message 27/34 11-Mar-03 @ 03:08 PM - RE: free will

moonunit

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protuberances , hmm

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Message 28/34 11-Mar-03 @ 04:00 PM - RE: free will

��R

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Wasn't there a movie called Free Willy. I think there's where you'll find your answer.

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Message 29/34 11-Mar-03 @ 04:02 PM - RE: free will

psylichon

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ok, that's two free willy references now. I'm blowing the whistle and starting the play over.

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Message 30/34 11-Mar-03 @ 05:06 PM - RE: free will

BJT

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No, I mean Yes, I mean no I meant yes but said no.

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