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Forums - The lounge
Subject: Faith
Pages: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 ... 19
Original Message Date: 24-Sep-02 @ 05:37 AM - Faith
Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...
I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)
I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.
Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.
I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.
And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.
This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?
Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...
Dave
p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...
I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)
I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.
Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.
I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.
And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.
This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?
Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...
Dave
p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...
Message 71/188 26-Sep-02 @ 09:39 PM - RE: Faith
can we get rid of calculus while we're at it? at least the integration part? i didn't like it either.
... erm.
personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me.
if the universe is ordered, if the universe has simplicity (whatever that is... simplicity rarely exists in the real world, it is an abstraction that lets our feeble minds appreciate, use, and break down the complexity that exists)... even so, how does this make it god? or a person of any kind?
if you think it does, i'd like to hear it, because it doesn't make sense to me, and maybe you can make it make sense.
if you don't think it does, then we're back to using the same word two different ways.
i know that the appreciation of these things, the appropriation of truth into our minds, often leads to a joy and an emotional experience that seems 'spiritual'. but if these things are god, we must ask a question: why? why do these things echo in our mind, resonate in our soul? does our pancreas explode with similar delight when it discovers its place in a human body? is a star flooded with emotion when it realizes the order in its galaxy? what is different about man?
and i will say again, functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?
and if you say that god is 'laws of the universe, relationships, etc' like knowledge that are sort of 'apart' from what 'is', how is this any different from any other physical phenomena, or the once-proposed 'aether' holding everything together etc?
... erm.
personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me.
if the universe is ordered, if the universe has simplicity (whatever that is... simplicity rarely exists in the real world, it is an abstraction that lets our feeble minds appreciate, use, and break down the complexity that exists)... even so, how does this make it god? or a person of any kind?
if you think it does, i'd like to hear it, because it doesn't make sense to me, and maybe you can make it make sense.
if you don't think it does, then we're back to using the same word two different ways.
i know that the appreciation of these things, the appropriation of truth into our minds, often leads to a joy and an emotional experience that seems 'spiritual'. but if these things are god, we must ask a question: why? why do these things echo in our mind, resonate in our soul? does our pancreas explode with similar delight when it discovers its place in a human body? is a star flooded with emotion when it realizes the order in its galaxy? what is different about man?
and i will say again, functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?
and if you say that god is 'laws of the universe, relationships, etc' like knowledge that are sort of 'apart' from what 'is', how is this any different from any other physical phenomena, or the once-proposed 'aether' holding everything together etc?
Message 72/188 26-Sep-02 @ 10:21 PM - RE: Faith
Wow this thing hurt my head... Errata and Psylichon, reading your experiences are like deja vu to me..
I believe in some sort of entity beyond this world. I do not know what kind of influence it has on those who dwell here, myself included, but I believe we are all a part of, or at least connected to, said entity. This is what shapes (what I hope is) my open-minded attitude towards other people, and my tendency to be argumentative with those who tend to take what they're told as law when in reality there exists no true way to prove or disprove what they say.
The important thing in all this, I think, is that I came to this conclusion by interpreting my own feelings and experiences. Just as Jamey came to his spirituality through his epiphany, for lack of a better term. Both are valid, and I think that all religions are simply culturally-influenced doctrines which attempt to explain the entity I feel is present, but don't feel is adequately explained by any formal religious doctrine.
Make sense? Probably not, but when you think about it from a scientist's perspective neither does religion
-Craig
I believe in some sort of entity beyond this world. I do not know what kind of influence it has on those who dwell here, myself included, but I believe we are all a part of, or at least connected to, said entity. This is what shapes (what I hope is) my open-minded attitude towards other people, and my tendency to be argumentative with those who tend to take what they're told as law when in reality there exists no true way to prove or disprove what they say.
The important thing in all this, I think, is that I came to this conclusion by interpreting my own feelings and experiences. Just as Jamey came to his spirituality through his epiphany, for lack of a better term. Both are valid, and I think that all religions are simply culturally-influenced doctrines which attempt to explain the entity I feel is present, but don't feel is adequately explained by any formal religious doctrine.
Make sense? Probably not, but when you think about it from a scientist's perspective neither does religion
-Craig
Message 73/188 26-Sep-02 @ 10:42 PM - RE: Faith
"all religions are simply culturally-influenced doctrines which attempt to explain the entity"
Again I ask, has anyone read Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" ?
It talks exactly about what you're saying here, Craig. It speaks of archtypes and metaphors that have been with humanity for all of recorded history (and beyond). These images and ideas are constantly recurring in our stories, our myths, our dreams, and of course, our religions. It's a seriously DEEP book and I bet 99% of the people reading this thread would REALLY dig it.
It's just a beautiful view of the human condition. Check it out...
psylichon
Again I ask, has anyone read Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" ?
It talks exactly about what you're saying here, Craig. It speaks of archtypes and metaphors that have been with humanity for all of recorded history (and beyond). These images and ideas are constantly recurring in our stories, our myths, our dreams, and of course, our religions. It's a seriously DEEP book and I bet 99% of the people reading this thread would REALLY dig it.
It's just a beautiful view of the human condition. Check it out...
psylichon
Message 75/188 27-Sep-02 @ 12:02 AM - RE: Faith
Okay, I know I initially said only personal experiences here, not other people's ideas, but we all knew that wouldn't last... so....
Joseph Campbell's stuff is just too appropriate for the thread. Just to whet yer whistle:
"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. "
"God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."
"Follow your bliss and doors will open where there were no doors before."
"I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive."
"We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."
"Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths." (LOVE that one)
"A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself."
http://www.soultospirit.com/teachers/quotes/jcampqt.asp
(Lots of good stuff there)
Damn, now I'd like to know what you guys have read on this subject. Oh well, I started the thread, I can change its guidelines, right?
psylichon
Joseph Campbell's stuff is just too appropriate for the thread. Just to whet yer whistle:
"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. "
"God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."
"Follow your bliss and doors will open where there were no doors before."
"I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive."
"We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."
"Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths." (LOVE that one)
"A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself."
http://www.soultospirit.com/teachers/quotes/jcampqt.asp
(Lots of good stuff there)
Damn, now I'd like to know what you guys have read on this subject. Oh well, I started the thread, I can change its guidelines, right?
psylichon
Message 76/188 27-Sep-02 @ 12:15 AM - RE: Faith
Ah... missed one of your posts there, nomad.
"can we get rid of calculus while we're at it?"
Actually, a popular way that scientists look at the universe today involves a process called renormalization which (in simplified terms) never allows for infinite reduction. This agrees with quantum field theory. There is a minimum length in our universe, and therefore finite answers can be found without calculus. Actually, with basic algebra. Yay!
"personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me."
Well, I'm saying when you get right down to it, the artist and the art really ARE unified. At least that's how it seems to me.
"functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?"
NOW you're starting to see. The universe simply IS, but it couldn't BE without some sort of creative force that I call GOD. This creative force is reflected in EVERYthing. But the mere fact that we see our universe and our souls as divided instead of united with God is strange and mysterious, indeed.
I'm kinda starting to think that if the universe remained unified, there could be no creation. Maybe the division of space and time was the birth of creation. Perhaps "creativity" is such a driving force, it simply had to exist, and made and continues to make our world today...?
I'm gonna go do a bong hit now.
psylichon
"can we get rid of calculus while we're at it?"
Actually, a popular way that scientists look at the universe today involves a process called renormalization which (in simplified terms) never allows for infinite reduction. This agrees with quantum field theory. There is a minimum length in our universe, and therefore finite answers can be found without calculus. Actually, with basic algebra. Yay!
"personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me."
Well, I'm saying when you get right down to it, the artist and the art really ARE unified. At least that's how it seems to me.
"functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?"
NOW you're starting to see. The universe simply IS, but it couldn't BE without some sort of creative force that I call GOD. This creative force is reflected in EVERYthing. But the mere fact that we see our universe and our souls as divided instead of united with God is strange and mysterious, indeed.
I'm kinda starting to think that if the universe remained unified, there could be no creation. Maybe the division of space and time was the birth of creation. Perhaps "creativity" is such a driving force, it simply had to exist, and made and continues to make our world today...?
I'm gonna go do a bong hit now.
psylichon
Message 78/188 27-Sep-02 @ 01:50 AM - RE: Faith
i think what you need is some real sincere tragedy to throw a little twist into your oh-so delightful little dance routine there. then check back with me, mmkay? you got a wife and kid? heh heh, i know ya do.. fancy watching them get fucked to death by coke-crazed akitas who then proceed to sever your spinal cord at the neck?
maybe it would be cool if you could philosophise about it now, huh? that'd be right entertaining. bad things truly suck, and they aren't fairy tales.
go on, about god. speak more. i'm enjoying this.
maybe it would be cool if you could philosophise about it now, huh? that'd be right entertaining. bad things truly suck, and they aren't fairy tales.
go on, about god. speak more. i'm enjoying this.
Message 79/188 27-Sep-02 @ 02:09 AM - RE: Faith
Well, I guess I won't know until I live through everything like you have, xoxos. The whole human experience, that is.
I've thought about my parents dying. No, I don't think I'd cry at this point in my life. Not sure about my wife. Don't have any kids.
You're right. I won't talk about God until I feel some more pain. It's just pointless.
psylichon
I've thought about my parents dying. No, I don't think I'd cry at this point in my life. Not sure about my wife. Don't have any kids.
You're right. I won't talk about God until I feel some more pain. It's just pointless.
psylichon
Message 80/188 27-Sep-02 @ 02:22 AM - RE: Faith
You know, I'd cry a lot. It would be the most painful thing in my life if someone laid a finger on my wife. Maybe that IS what I really need to understand life and all its many facets. I've had it easy up to now.
But maybe reading, thinking about these things, and talking about them will prepare me for such a day. Even if my beliefs only help me at that point in the smallest of ways imaginable, I still think the pursuit of knowledge is a noble endeavor.
That is, unless you've already figured it all out. Then you can stop.
psylichon
But maybe reading, thinking about these things, and talking about them will prepare me for such a day. Even if my beliefs only help me at that point in the smallest of ways imaginable, I still think the pursuit of knowledge is a noble endeavor.
That is, unless you've already figured it all out. Then you can stop.
psylichon
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