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Forums - Music techology
Subject: Gina & VST in the real world
Original Message Date: 01-Apr-98 @ 10:41 AM - Gina & VST in the real world
well, I met my first GINA yesterday...... my mate Barry Ryan (he and his brother wrote Eloise etc...y'know... The Damned did a cover of it amongst others.....)....anyhow, Barry just bought a P2-266 and a Gina and the upgraded VST with inserts...... so off I went..... as Barry notoriously looses the wiring set-up plan I made him, and when he moves his kit, I get to go over and set it up all over again !!.....
Anyhow..... Very well built that GINA....... but the PC...oh deary me.....
He got it for about 800 (UK) with no monitor...... with 64mb s-dram...... anyhow...I arrived to find Barry hammering away on his 02/W PRO.... and the resulting returning midid data triggering the modules with midi delay effect repeats.....Ok..... straight into VST and turn off the midi delay effect..... then it suddenly crashed ..!!... hmmmmmm....... every time VST opened, and he hit a key.... VST crashed.... after which if re-opened, no midi IN would be recieved...... we were going mental !!..... anyhow..... first things first.... first up I noticed that the system had all the yellow question marks up on the PCI controllers etc..... hmmmm........ now I've just finished building a 200mmx machine with udma support and s-dram.... and had the same thing........ It's the new INTEL chipsets..... I thought it was restricted to TX sets.... but Barry's got the LX..... same thing.... the guy who built it, basically hadn't added the drivers..... probably, cos when you do.... it crashes the whole system.... (I know.... I spent ages with this one)....... so I basically removed all the hardware except the video card..... then set-up the drivers from a cd which was in the motherboard box...... had to reinstall the cdrom drivers, and remove all the MSCDEX references from Config.sys, and the Autoexec.bat.... IF in the future you need to access the cdrom in DOS, you have to reinstall the MSCDEX from a standard mitsumi atapi driver disk..... anyhow... I persuaded Barruy to let me basically re-build the fucking thing, cos I HATE fucking around with other proples bodge-jobs....... anyway.... finally installed all the drivers....... and then noticed the UDMA support wasn't added as the rive setup in th bios was left on AUTO and AUTO...... I redid it as USER - LBA mode..... and off we went..... first up..... re-installed the MPU-401.... and in it went..... then re-installed VST....... same fucking MIDI crash every time a key was hit on the keyboard..... hmmmmm...... ok...... it was the EFFECT.DLL in VST MODULE dir that was the cause..... so I basically cut it out and pasted it into a new folder for future use.... after that for some stange reason VST was fine with the midi in....... ok..... next GINA.....
Installed like a dream..... straight in.... no problemo...... It's a very well built unit.... the outboard box is WELL-solid in a heavy duty steel case, and the 1/4 inch jacks plug in to it with a solid 'Clunk'.... nice and reassuring...... the connecting 'Screened' cable that links it to the pci card is VERY, VERY thick.....
Ok the cable may have alot of sheilding, but fuck-me !!.... trying to route in in the desired direction from the pc to the break-out box was like wrestling with a bloody great killer python like in one of those crapppy 'lost-world' sci-fi movies.... !!.... I tell you... it's got a life of it's own.!!......
anyhow...eventually i beat it into submission.... and after dramatically plunging my dagger into it a few times (whilst underwater of course, so the blood is more visible !!).... it obeyed, and I managed to get it to run around to the LEFT side of the pc, and meet up with the break-out box !!.......
It's a very quiet card system.... (after we moved the pc screen away from the mixer !!!!).... I tell you what... those Allen & Heath little mixers are NOT well sheilded... it was picking up so much interference from the screen, that with everything unplugged and headphones plugged in, it sounded like....well, like something extremely noisey and horrible..... ok, once the screen was moved away, it ceased, but still kicked off every-time my mobile phone rang.....
anyhow..... Gina installed.... VST re-installed and the offending effect.dll removed, and off we went..... BUT.....
I still noticed that even with a P2-266 and 64mb of s-dram, there was a noticable glitch in timing tempo if i went to record some midi from the master keyboard.....still gotta get into messing with vst to try to get that sorted...... I mean..... It was fine once you played back...... but there was a skip or glitch in the clock/metronome tempo when you hit the first note sent to vst........we didn't have time to sort it last night, as by the time i got it rebuilt, it was midnight....... but all in all very efficient....... no glitching when moving data whilst playing, and the WAVES pluggin compressor module was great on the vocal takes we made...... it's a really nice plug-in I think..... We inserted it into the signal path with the new INSERT mode in the latest VST..... very efficient.......
Anyhow.... all i can say is..... the GINA is ok....... well worth the dosh.... and if anyone's interested, Barry has now for sale...... a DAL card D..... and AWE-32....and a DB50-XG...... anyhow........ I'm gonna get over there to do some more experiments on VST.....and I've also recommended that we get an AGP graphics card installed.....there's apparently some problem with the Matrox millenium and the newest Active-X drivers that VST needs............ I'll keep you posted.....
and one last thing..... Barry had a few more tales about Steinbergs legendary Technical support...... (hahahahaaahahaahha..choke splutter!!!!)....... I tell you... I'm gonna call up Steinberg, and challenge them to be interviewd about this dismal state of affairs... cos.......... does anyone have a GOOD experience with their tech support ?? ??.......
Anyhow..... Very well built that GINA....... but the PC...oh deary me.....
He got it for about 800 (UK) with no monitor...... with 64mb s-dram...... anyhow...I arrived to find Barry hammering away on his 02/W PRO.... and the resulting returning midid data triggering the modules with midi delay effect repeats.....Ok..... straight into VST and turn off the midi delay effect..... then it suddenly crashed ..!!... hmmmmmm....... every time VST opened, and he hit a key.... VST crashed.... after which if re-opened, no midi IN would be recieved...... we were going mental !!..... anyhow..... first things first.... first up I noticed that the system had all the yellow question marks up on the PCI controllers etc..... hmmmm........ now I've just finished building a 200mmx machine with udma support and s-dram.... and had the same thing........ It's the new INTEL chipsets..... I thought it was restricted to TX sets.... but Barry's got the LX..... same thing.... the guy who built it, basically hadn't added the drivers..... probably, cos when you do.... it crashes the whole system.... (I know.... I spent ages with this one)....... so I basically removed all the hardware except the video card..... then set-up the drivers from a cd which was in the motherboard box...... had to reinstall the cdrom drivers, and remove all the MSCDEX references from Config.sys, and the Autoexec.bat.... IF in the future you need to access the cdrom in DOS, you have to reinstall the MSCDEX from a standard mitsumi atapi driver disk..... anyhow... I persuaded Barruy to let me basically re-build the fucking thing, cos I HATE fucking around with other proples bodge-jobs....... anyway.... finally installed all the drivers....... and then noticed the UDMA support wasn't added as the rive setup in th bios was left on AUTO and AUTO...... I redid it as USER - LBA mode..... and off we went..... first up..... re-installed the MPU-401.... and in it went..... then re-installed VST....... same fucking MIDI crash every time a key was hit on the keyboard..... hmmmmm...... ok...... it was the EFFECT.DLL in VST MODULE dir that was the cause..... so I basically cut it out and pasted it into a new folder for future use.... after that for some stange reason VST was fine with the midi in....... ok..... next GINA.....
Installed like a dream..... straight in.... no problemo...... It's a very well built unit.... the outboard box is WELL-solid in a heavy duty steel case, and the 1/4 inch jacks plug in to it with a solid 'Clunk'.... nice and reassuring...... the connecting 'Screened' cable that links it to the pci card is VERY, VERY thick.....
Ok the cable may have alot of sheilding, but fuck-me !!.... trying to route in in the desired direction from the pc to the break-out box was like wrestling with a bloody great killer python like in one of those crapppy 'lost-world' sci-fi movies.... !!.... I tell you... it's got a life of it's own.!!......
anyhow...eventually i beat it into submission.... and after dramatically plunging my dagger into it a few times (whilst underwater of course, so the blood is more visible !!).... it obeyed, and I managed to get it to run around to the LEFT side of the pc, and meet up with the break-out box !!.......
It's a very quiet card system.... (after we moved the pc screen away from the mixer !!!!).... I tell you what... those Allen & Heath little mixers are NOT well sheilded... it was picking up so much interference from the screen, that with everything unplugged and headphones plugged in, it sounded like....well, like something extremely noisey and horrible..... ok, once the screen was moved away, it ceased, but still kicked off every-time my mobile phone rang.....
anyhow..... Gina installed.... VST re-installed and the offending effect.dll removed, and off we went..... BUT.....
I still noticed that even with a P2-266 and 64mb of s-dram, there was a noticable glitch in timing tempo if i went to record some midi from the master keyboard.....still gotta get into messing with vst to try to get that sorted...... I mean..... It was fine once you played back...... but there was a skip or glitch in the clock/metronome tempo when you hit the first note sent to vst........we didn't have time to sort it last night, as by the time i got it rebuilt, it was midnight....... but all in all very efficient....... no glitching when moving data whilst playing, and the WAVES pluggin compressor module was great on the vocal takes we made...... it's a really nice plug-in I think..... We inserted it into the signal path with the new INSERT mode in the latest VST..... very efficient.......
Anyhow.... all i can say is..... the GINA is ok....... well worth the dosh.... and if anyone's interested, Barry has now for sale...... a DAL card D..... and AWE-32....and a DB50-XG...... anyhow........ I'm gonna get over there to do some more experiments on VST.....and I've also recommended that we get an AGP graphics card installed.....there's apparently some problem with the Matrox millenium and the newest Active-X drivers that VST needs............ I'll keep you posted.....
and one last thing..... Barry had a few more tales about Steinbergs legendary Technical support...... (hahahahaaahahaahha..choke splutter!!!!)....... I tell you... I'm gonna call up Steinberg, and challenge them to be interviewd about this dismal state of affairs... cos.......... does anyone have a GOOD experience with their tech support ?? ??.......
Message 11/18 21-Apr-98 @ 06:23 AM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
yes...... The guy i was setting it up for iwas getting problems..... i asked him to do as it said in that Zefire guys text file CLICK
Anyways,....sure enuff when he dragged the screen around it was leaving patches, and glitching like buggery.... so he go the line written in, and it immeadiatly got better.... I'm off over there to do some more ....... i think... why not run any audio proggie at 800X600.... it's not such a bummer to re-boot..... and it's a hell of alot less strain of the system overall yet evrything is actually more readable i find..... it all seems more chunky... and when you grab stuff, it responds fast.... like a solid feel... it all seems a bit fiddly at higher res..... anyhow.... Gina can get it's 8 outs..... i gotta get into that side of the routing.... like the assignments, subgroups etc..... i'll post it...
Anyways,....sure enuff when he dragged the screen around it was leaving patches, and glitching like buggery.... so he go the line written in, and it immeadiatly got better.... I'm off over there to do some more ....... i think... why not run any audio proggie at 800X600.... it's not such a bummer to re-boot..... and it's a hell of alot less strain of the system overall yet evrything is actually more readable i find..... it all seems more chunky... and when you grab stuff, it responds fast.... like a solid feel... it all seems a bit fiddly at higher res..... anyhow.... Gina can get it's 8 outs..... i gotta get into that side of the routing.... like the assignments, subgroups etc..... i'll post it...
Message 12/18 21-Apr-98 @ 01:22 PM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
I've got an ATI RageII w/ some Mach64GT chip, do you think I could use any of these reparations? BTW, in a silly, desperate attempt I simply de-activated the accelerator; stupid or what?
Cubase assigns channels to Gina the way you assign midi channels, and I believe it can access additional cards in the same way.
Cubase assigns channels to Gina the way you assign midi channels, and I believe it can access additional cards in the same way.
Message 13/18 24-Apr-98 @ 02:13 AM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
well, for the mach 64, it says in windows help files to write into the system.ini file:
[display]
outengine=0
VAD=1
this apparently will turn off the buss locking or whatever scheme it uses.....
anyway.... bad news in the VST updates......
midi timing... and crashing.....
thwe cannot get a reliable midi timing..... almost there at times, but it seems to even change overnight between power-down and boot up the next day.... with OR without any audio on the track area, regardless of system or whatever, we cannot lay out a row of 16th notes with say a snare drum and have it play a smooth roll......
for evrything else... such as synth lines, basslines, keyparts, etc.... the timing sounds ok... but throw a snare roll at it, or a 16th sequenced synth pattern.... ferget it !!..... and it falls apart !!.......
so far...... I'll keep on for another week or so, but if none of the systems can get it together to run VST properly, then it's gonna have to be a MAC for VST...... you shouldn't have to go thru this shite..... cakewlk on the other hand is perfect !!.... (older V5)... haven't tried the newer multi-soundcard versions......
keep you posted !!
[display]
outengine=0
VAD=1
this apparently will turn off the buss locking or whatever scheme it uses.....
anyway.... bad news in the VST updates......
midi timing... and crashing.....
thwe cannot get a reliable midi timing..... almost there at times, but it seems to even change overnight between power-down and boot up the next day.... with OR without any audio on the track area, regardless of system or whatever, we cannot lay out a row of 16th notes with say a snare drum and have it play a smooth roll......
for evrything else... such as synth lines, basslines, keyparts, etc.... the timing sounds ok... but throw a snare roll at it, or a 16th sequenced synth pattern.... ferget it !!..... and it falls apart !!.......
so far...... I'll keep on for another week or so, but if none of the systems can get it together to run VST properly, then it's gonna have to be a MAC for VST...... you shouldn't have to go thru this shite..... cakewlk on the other hand is perfect !!.... (older V5)... haven't tried the newer multi-soundcard versions......
keep you posted !!
Message 14/18 24-Apr-98 @ 08:01 AM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
Thanks, Kilo! Think I should keep that accelerator turned off?
One nice thing about old v.'s of Cakewalk is they're easy to get copies of. I guess you could just compose in Cubase and import it into Cakewalk as a midi file.
BTW, I know a guy with every seq prog ever made, and (he still uses Cakewalk 5.0 (don't know why; I hate it
One nice thing about old v.'s of Cakewalk is they're easy to get copies of. I guess you could just compose in Cubase and import it into Cakewalk as a midi file.
BTW, I know a guy with every seq prog ever made, and (he still uses Cakewalk 5.0 (don't know why; I hate it
Message 15/18 24-Apr-98 @ 09:25 PM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
well it is very good actually..... have you ever really got into it..... for controller data input and all that side of it it rulez..and the markers are a dream when you are zoomed out....... but it doesnt have the drum grid, and the nifty tool box to quickly grab a tool.... and the kicker... for me that's the cruncher for cubase....
but with vst it is perfect as a total package... sorry to say it, but If you really want my honest opinion ..... I'd say this
I think VST is very intuitive..... i like it... and if you wanna run it, and get up in the morning and work,.... and not have crashing all the time, and conficts etc etc... get a secondhand Mac for about 700-1000 Uk sterling -......a 150 MHZ mac will run 32 tracks no sweat and it'll work for sure......... there ya go.... no wav's..... you'll have to convert e'm over for anything like hammerhead .... but frankly, i cant see it ever being a viable pc tool that when you say to someone... get it... you are not going around worrying cos you know that more than likely they are gonna be back on the phone going apeshit cos they cannot work after spending 1500 pounds on the hardware & s/ware........
maybe we'll crack it.... i get back.... hopefully it'll change... if it does, then i change opinion......
but with vst it is perfect as a total package... sorry to say it, but If you really want my honest opinion ..... I'd say this
I think VST is very intuitive..... i like it... and if you wanna run it, and get up in the morning and work,.... and not have crashing all the time, and conficts etc etc... get a secondhand Mac for about 700-1000 Uk sterling -......a 150 MHZ mac will run 32 tracks no sweat and it'll work for sure......... there ya go.... no wav's..... you'll have to convert e'm over for anything like hammerhead .... but frankly, i cant see it ever being a viable pc tool that when you say to someone... get it... you are not going around worrying cos you know that more than likely they are gonna be back on the phone going apeshit cos they cannot work after spending 1500 pounds on the hardware & s/ware........
maybe we'll crack it.... i get back.... hopefully it'll change... if it does, then i change opinion......
Message 16/18 26-Apr-98 @ 10:51 AM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
er, a year and a half ago today you couldn't get any good sequencers for pc, so you could still give it some time. I wish they'd fix the problems instead of adding all these stupid new features, though.
Message 17/18 26-Apr-98 @ 04:55 PM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
agreed...... it seems that vst has to take a clock reference from it's audio card......either by sample position, or by dma block.... so the card , and the connection to the card is paramount......anyway...... i guess it is the best way to do it.... but.... it does mean there is going to be a delay while everyone gets the drivers together...... Clemens wrote me to say a freind of his has also trouble with the tahiti.... yet he has rock solid timing & no problems with the Guillemot
Maxi 64 PRO, Opcode 8Port/SE-Midi-interface.....(with Intel P233II, ASUS board, SCSI equipment)...... so the Guillemot seems to be ok.......apparently vst will be getting control of the Maxisounds dsp fx via the fx panel soon...... so I'm gonna make a vst page.... and we can hopefully build a list of YES cards... and NO cards....... still I AM a bit worried that it still is gonna be un-reliable with Gina.... I guess in the end we have to acccept that it's a while away yet until it all straightens out... but it's frustratiing, cos... I loaded the CW-Pro_Audio-V6 demo... it found all the old songs and loaded them instantly.... and they all played first click without a hitch !!........ so... I reckon if you want to forgo headaches, AND forgo internal processing (not that cake doesnt have it... but it's a bloody nightmare to use)... then I dont see why Cake with the Gina or whatever cannot be used with external processing on seprate external mixer channels....... IT is so rock solid.... and i suppose for me that is the crunch.... why the hell can one s/w (desic=gned from the off for the pc) work fine in most situations.... and vst cannot..... In the end, while we cannot deny it is great to look at and extremely intuitive to use, it isnt well written...... from a clock and system point of view.......
I can get the timing better on the tahiti by reducing the buffers in the ASIO pannel to the lowest (3)... and the buffer size to lowest 512K.... but then it cannot play audio ... heh heh... oh well........ back to the frigging drawing board.... gotta get a new card for that one then........ havent tried the DAL cards yet....and I also have an awe32 i can try (ulp...reserve me a bed in the local looney bin !!!)...... but i will although they never worked with standard cubase until the last revision of XT...... and it is probably gonna be shakey still......
aaoaoooaaoaooaooaoaooaooghghghghghghghghhghghghhaaa!!
Maxi 64 PRO, Opcode 8Port/SE-Midi-interface.....(with Intel P233II, ASUS board, SCSI equipment)...... so the Guillemot seems to be ok.......apparently vst will be getting control of the Maxisounds dsp fx via the fx panel soon...... so I'm gonna make a vst page.... and we can hopefully build a list of YES cards... and NO cards....... still I AM a bit worried that it still is gonna be un-reliable with Gina.... I guess in the end we have to acccept that it's a while away yet until it all straightens out... but it's frustratiing, cos... I loaded the CW-Pro_Audio-V6 demo... it found all the old songs and loaded them instantly.... and they all played first click without a hitch !!........ so... I reckon if you want to forgo headaches, AND forgo internal processing (not that cake doesnt have it... but it's a bloody nightmare to use)... then I dont see why Cake with the Gina or whatever cannot be used with external processing on seprate external mixer channels....... IT is so rock solid.... and i suppose for me that is the crunch.... why the hell can one s/w (desic=gned from the off for the pc) work fine in most situations.... and vst cannot..... In the end, while we cannot deny it is great to look at and extremely intuitive to use, it isnt well written...... from a clock and system point of view.......
I can get the timing better on the tahiti by reducing the buffers in the ASIO pannel to the lowest (3)... and the buffer size to lowest 512K.... but then it cannot play audio ... heh heh... oh well........ back to the frigging drawing board.... gotta get a new card for that one then........ havent tried the DAL cards yet....and I also have an awe32 i can try (ulp...reserve me a bed in the local looney bin !!!)...... but i will although they never worked with standard cubase until the last revision of XT...... and it is probably gonna be shakey still......
aaoaoooaaoaooaooaoaooaooghghghghghghghghhghghghhaaa!!
Message 18/18 03-May-98 @ 09:21 AM - RE: Gina & VST in the real world
I want to say that because of this thread and other threads recently concerning Cubase, my understanding of it and its performance within my pc has been improving exponentially. Thanks.
I run the Gina, an AWE64, and a generic Crystal, sometimes with Rebirth and VAZ running simultaneously, and have started using the audio portion religiously. Tip: the do menu for audio has 'M' points you can set for loops, which is the equivalent of Recycle.
While my timing is solid (after fixing the video card, thanks again Kilo), the sync out is delayed. Is there any way to compensate for this by actually delaying Cubase to match (yeah, believe it, I want my delay BACK).
I run the Gina, an AWE64, and a generic Crystal, sometimes with Rebirth and VAZ running simultaneously, and have started using the audio portion religiously. Tip: the do menu for audio has 'M' points you can set for loops, which is the equivalent of Recycle.
While my timing is solid (after fixing the video card, thanks again Kilo), the sync out is delayed. Is there any way to compensate for this by actually delaying Cubase to match (yeah, believe it, I want my delay BACK).
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