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Subject: We wanna go LIVE!!!


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Original Message 1/30             25-Aug-04  @  02:19 PM     Edit: 25-Aug-04  |  02:24 PM   -   We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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Ok, so after spending a little time talking to some rather cool guys whilst I was away in Lausanne this weekend - http:\\www.fusefactory.ch - and with our latest album being released last week... the thirst to take our sound live has now become unbearable..

I've done some research, I've sat and talked with our guys and it looks like despite all of my cynicism, we're *seriously* considering the use of a lappy, buying in Live V4, our man Jam on VDrums, our double bassist and of course the darkstate vocalists as the core of a live setup...

From what I've read, Live V4 *could* be a good way to get the bulk of our studio heavy sound out there for "live" re-sequencing on stage. This would be a massive boost to getting rehearsals underway without having to dismantle the studio each time, convert those Cubase SX projects back to midi data (to be read by, say, my P2500's onboard sequencer etc.)..

The idea will be to move the core audio clips from our project across into Live for re-sequencing on the fly on stage (after many rehearsals with it and the other darkstate musicians that is)..

Naturally, the stability of a laptop, WinXP and Live itself is a BIG concern to me but with each and every day now, I'm hearing that it IS viable provided you take some (fairly commonsense) precautions - vibration damping, stripped bear XP build, no crap installed, audio solution with mature drivers - like say, an Echo Indigo - etc..

Of course, despite all that I *still* don't trust PCs completely which is where a 2nd identical system running all of the appropriate audio with its own copy of Live (sync'd to the first but muted during the set) would provide redundancy.. since we haven't got the budget for two tasty laptops then the redundancy would be performed by a spare high-specced mini tower that we do have available to us - setup properly on stage too (same vibration protection etc) but out of the way and only as a LAST resort..

After all my rambling, my thoughts and questions to you fine people is this...

1) Will this work?
2) Is the 2nd machine overkill - despite the fact we won't be in any position to have a 2nd laptop (which would be the ideal portable redundancy solution IMO)
3) Just how good and more importanly STABLE is Ableton Live on the PC?
4) Anyone have any anecdotes for doing anything like this (or any live users out there?)
5) I know a lot of hedz fly by the seat of their pants or SWEAR on hardware only setups for just the very reason that its more "immediate" and reliable - but this is the angle we're aiming for so advice on this tack is gratefully appreciated...



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Message 2/30             25-Aug-04  @  03:10 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

0dB

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I've been playing with the Live 4 demo this weekend, been giving it a right thrashing with various VSTis, audio and FX. No crashes, instabilities or anything.

It does look interesting, the 'scene' management and MIDI playback and automation certainly look interesting from a live angle, certainly easier than loading MIDI files into a hardware seq.

I like the workflow for arrangement too, I couldn't see myself using it for the entire music making process but it could certainly breath a bit of fresh air and variety into the mix.

It's gonna take me a while to get to grips with it, it's quite a different way of working (a mix between a tracker, Acid and a full blown DAW ) but it certainly gives you enough help with the info box which explains anything you hover the mouse over, the tutorials are pretty comprehensive too.

I'm interested to hear from any experienced Live users.



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Message 3/30             25-Aug-04  @  03:37 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

mcc>

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you're giving ableton a serious looking at!
good!
i think this could work well for your situation.

i'm trying to remember whether live has ever crashed on me. i know it had slowed and become unstable on my old g3 when i was pushing it hard but it was only a 266.
other than that i don't recall it ever crashing. it sails on my g4.

my suggestion would be to use the tower pc to drive the most basic root track....just in case anything tragic should occur with the laptop. this way....were you to lose your "jam" pc during play, you have some element of a track surviving...which...
in said emergency you can rush up a second rescue track which brings the main elements back into play....perhaps by having all elements appear on one send track which is easily unmuted.

a second member would have to be versed in how to hit this track so you could focus on rebooting the laptop ("jam" pc).
of course....always have some sideshow comedy strip-tease routine ready to keep the audience amused as you get ready to fade the entire set back to life...were a fade-out deemed necessary.

but i don't think it'd come to that.....not from what i've heard and not from my own experiences. then again i'm not syncing 2 units together either.
i think the issue would become is it possible to reboot...with option to slave to master and re-engage set midstream without sending some hiccup signal to the master tower pc.
i've always been a big believer in the pre-mixed cd, especially for emergencies.
hitting play is easy enough and you'll never have a sync problem.
it would seem feasible that a lock-up in the master pc could cause the "jam" pc to lock-up as well.

but again...i think your environment with live 4 would be more stable than that.....
however.....never say never.
be prepared and good luck!!!



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Message 4/30             25-Aug-04  @  04:08 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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Thanks Clay, those are quite encouraging words - and although the idea of having a "backup" PC contributing a base track to the mix is an interesting, I think has its own share of risks - I'm loth to rely on the tower to play any music during the main set unless absolutely called for but that could just be me..

As for keeping things going in the event of a PC disaster, we've got our drummer and bass player (who should really lock together real tight anyway if we've done our rehearsals) to keep things sweet - not to mention the vocalists too..Which means I probably wouldn't even need to "sync" the backup PC, just have it ready to run for triggering clips if needed..

(Then the "jam" laptop can be rebooted in the background.. and around and around we go)



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Message 5/30             25-Aug-04  @  06:36 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

Pongoid

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Here's my quick two cents: EVERYTHING, including hardware crashes. People cough. Basses get broken strings, drummers tip over drums, break sticks, drop sticks, whatever; that's all part of a live show. You'll have a bassist, a drummer and singers onstage. If something locks up in your PC, normally it's just a reboot. If your bassist and drummer are good, they should be able to get a jam on, and hold the fort live for a few moments while it all reloads. The most important thing, after being stabile to begin with, is to have a machine that starts up fast after a crash. The thing to keep in mind is that it's live, and it's all part of the show. If your shit crashes, granted it's not the greatest thing, and doesn't make you feel super good, BUT it is live. Just one more quick thing about dedicated hardware: it crashes much less often, and unless it's everything, due to a major power issue, and the sequencers are wiped, then it's just one piece that needs to get power-cycled, and then a quick restart on the sequencer, and almost noone notices the difference. With an all-in-one unit, when it crashes, you whole set goes, so either use more than one piece of gear, or have more than one persona playing, and ALWAYS have a CD or MD player standing by with stuff to throw on in case your shit totally crashes, as the show MUST go on. It's just being prepared. Crashes aren't fun but they aren't the end of the world. Focus more on just playing the music, and less on trying to have a whole set just go smooth and perfect. One other thing that you really should keep in mind is that you are supposed to be playing a live performance, and that means that it's NOT what you're playing in the studio. It may be based on the ideas you had there, but keep it special and unique so that each show is a little different. Don't just remix you studio stuff. Make something happen that would never happen otherwise and will never happen again. Good luck.

Ape



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Message 6/30             25-Aug-04  @  08:10 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

CydoniaCell

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Good advices Pongoid...

I've been playing live electronic music for 10 years... I've always been a BIG critic of computer's on stage, for all of the obvious reasons (Hard Disk skip, instabilities, inflexible performance) but LIVE has me comin' around...

It's been just over a year since my live set... seems the older I get and the less connected to the "kids" I am, the less venues are available, and the less interested I am in making a bunch of pill munching little kids happy... but that's my own personal trip. I am getting my kit together for solo performance and I'm going to be using a combo of LIVE 4 (been playing with it for a few weeks and I've been EXTREMELY impressed, no crashes, glitches or problems and Live MIDI is great!!!) on a laptop and a HW sequencer driving a couple of mods and a sampler...

I've already done some dry runs of complete live sets with no breaks between trax and it's all gone very smoothly...

seems the more time I spend with LIVE the better it is... there's so much hands on manipulation with v4... and honestly, I've never been excited about playback in live sets, I'm a big fan of making a performance different and interesting, not just regurgitation of my studio work... (just throw on a cd if you're going to do that) and I'm really happy with how much on the fly work I can do with LIVEv4...

but it's gotta be v4 man... LIVE up until the latest was really JUST a sample playback program... made live sets smooth but not too interesting...

e



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Message 7/30             25-Aug-04  @  08:47 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

Influx

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Marc

Ive seen it done on more than a few occasions, and havent seen a single problem yet.

people running both mac and PC

I think pongoid's got it spot on: youre gonna have a backup band anyway! I dont think the second box is necessary really, but making sure the laptop is stripped and running perfectly is. Ive no doubt you can take care of that.

and the "get it to boot quickly" thing is key as well!



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Message 8/30             26-Aug-04  @  09:06 AM     Edit: 26-Aug-04  |  09:09 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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Sage words of advice all, thanks Dave, Ape and Cy.. this shit has been playing on my mind for some time and finally the pieces are starting to fall into place.

The key thing on my mind is to get into the practise room with the guys and get our shit tight as a nun's chuff!! Get on with the live sequencing using the new lappy and Live, getting a backup CD/MD prepared and knowing how to work that into the set should the very worst happen etc.

The idea was never to regurgitate the studio work on stage - I don't see the point of that myself - but with the guys and girls playing and singing too, I wanna add in the key sonic elements that personify our tracks using the lappy (and something like Live), rather than gigging a whole bunch of kit plus the necessary outboard - which i don't have masses of anyways...

Hoping to hook up with 0dB and have a play with his demo ver., check out what he's been doing.. Hardware wise, I've been looking at "Audio laptops" sold by the main music tech vendors here (DV, Phil Rees, Inta etc.), and to be honest the prices are fairly competitive to lappy's sold by "normal" PC hardware retailers - I'm always hearing that these laptops are configured for the musician but if this just means the software only, then bollocks to that coz I can configure it meself.. IF however the laptops themselves (cases/hardware) are more musician focussed (extra anti vibration in the case etc. - which I very much doubt) then I might.. otherwise may as well just buy a well specc'd one from a normal retailer.

So far, leading the list price/performance-wise is an AMD "Athlon 64 3000+ DTR" based laptop (1Gb Ram, 60Gb hdd), perhaps using something established like the Echo Indigo DJ for audio hardware duties (gotta keep moderately budget conscious so USB2/Firewire multi i/o boxes are out of the pricerange at the mo)



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Message 9/30             26-Aug-04  @  12:11 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

sitar

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"Basses get broken strings,..."

less chance of playing out of tune

"drummers tip over drums, break sticks, drop sticks, whatever;..."

speaks for itself

Seriously good luck Marc! Sounds great! If you don't do it cuz something might fo wrong you'll regret it. If something goes wrong you can deal with it at that moment. Prepare for the worst. Perform the best.



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Message 10/30             27-Aug-04  @  09:47 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

Pongoid

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Tight comes from practicing, listening, and doing it. You listen to each other and know how to talk to each other musically so that everybody knows what comes next, or at least where to let the next thing happen in the evolution of the set, like the bassist knows to take a break or play up the neck at a certain point cuz a big fat kick is coming up after the next fill, and it's not because you reheared it that way, but rather that you two know how things are supoosed to feel and you can feel that coming on, so you both adjust for it, they step back, and you drop the thump, or the singers get amped up to bust out a quick acapella then the fill then it all slams into some wicked thumping groove. It all comes from working together and building a unified direction. Diversity is great off-stage, but onstage you HAVE to all be heading for the same place, even if using different vehicles to get there.

Ape



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Message 11/30             31-Aug-04  @  09:28 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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Time will tell, but that's what we'll be aiming for..  



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Message 12/30             09-Sep-04  @  04:22 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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FUCKING 'ELL, LIVE 4 ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Now I just need to find me about £1500 squids for the lappy, indigo soundcard and Live full version.. YEAH BABY!!!



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Message 13/30             10-Sep-04  @  06:35 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

mcc>

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quit saying LIVE 4 ROCKS would ya?!?!?!?!?!


y a mekiN me angry.



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Message 14/30             10-Sep-04  @  07:45 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

welder (aka. ragnarok)

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Whats wrong with live4 Clay?



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Message 15/30             10-Sep-04  @  11:27 AM     Edit: 10-Sep-04  |  11:28 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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[quaking in my considerably sized boots here... not!]

Whassup Clay, ya not a LIVE fan? I'm just a newcomer to it meself (just playing with the demo ver) but I'm impressed with what it does for what we need - still using SX2.2 for the actual production but I reckon Live is where its at for what we need on stage... time will tell of coz!



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Message 16/30             10-Sep-04  @  03:47 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

mcc>

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oooh...oww...you said it again....ableton LIVE 4 rocks!!!!



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Message 17/30             10-Sep-04  @  09:59 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

Pongoid

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Congratulations. You found a tool that could work well for the context you're trying to put it into. Now shut up and get on with it already! Don't think that it's all a done deal. You've got other people to rehearse and play with, and they've got to not get bored with what you're doing unless you're paying them. It's not all honey and treacle from here. Lots of work to do. Good luck, and post a recording of it when it's done. If you've got other questions, feel free to ask. Tarra!

Ape



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Message 18/30             11-Sep-04  @  12:07 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

CydoniaCell

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Hahaha.. damn Pongoid... you'd make a good stage manager!

Live 4... yeah... me too, me too.

have fun with it, DS... but as the man says... shut up and get to work. hehehe

e



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Message 19/30             11-Sep-04  @  05:38 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

nutoniom

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work it bitcyh, work it !

go get "em !

or whatever



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Message 20/30             13-Sep-04  @  09:16 AM     Edit: 13-Sep-04  |  09:25 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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The ape man doth speaketh truth.. and I will quite happily say this... that during those interminably boring moments when I can't be practising my skillz or rehearsing with the guys (i.e. when I'm holding down the day job) - all I can do to keep the fire burning in my mind is pop along to here and eulogize occasionally..  

SO GIMME A BREAK OKAY?! I'M EXCITED!!!!

Thanks for the kind words all (and the offers of info - will be MUCH appreciated in the months to come)

I'm under no misconceptions about how much work its gonna take - I'm fully prepared for that. If I can get and keep my focus in the studio during years of recording and shit, then I'd like to think I can apply some of that to doing what I've been hoping to do for some time.. finding the "right" tools for what I wanna do, and more importantly *understanding* what it is I/we wanna do was only part of the battle... Now I am gonna shut it and get to work...

..watch this space!



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Message 21/30             13-Sep-04  @  11:54 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

milan

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now if you could only get back into studio long enough to finish my tune...



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Message 22/30             13-Sep-04  @  01:40 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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..LOL!! No rest for the wicked!!

Seriously, I haven't forgotten it - just trying to line up a young lady who will do it justice!! Bear with me bro'..



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Message 23/30             13-Sep-04  @  05:33 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

milan

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you're lucky i'm always out of town with no internet, ya hear!!!



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Message 24/30             15-Sep-04  @  05:42 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

0dB

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I can vouch for Mr Darkstate here, I was round his house last week and saw the SX2 arrange page with all your audio tracks set out all ready for the vocal.

I think it's great how he managed to get that Xylaphone line into the chorus, and the Elephants stampeding sample he's got during the end is genius. Not sure about the bagpipes throughout but each to his own. .



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Message 25/30             16-Sep-04  @  02:38 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

Influx

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I thought the harmonica solo fit pretty well and meshed beautifully with the ukelele



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Message 26/30             16-Sep-04  @  10:45 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

milan

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lol! you nutters

well guess what... i wont have time to give you shit about it for few more weeks looks like (eek), so better sort out those bagpipes mate!!!



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Message 27/30             17-Sep-04  @  09:57 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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The cockney geezah that I got to rap over the top ain't to bad, and the Urdu vocal samples I've added are giving the tune some much needed depth I think..



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Message 28/30             17-Sep-04  @  10:57 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

milan

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9 to 5ers with nothing better to do eh...



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Message 29/30             07-Dec-04  @  11:08 AM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

dARKSTATe

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Just seen THIS

Now I've got two perfectly good midi controllers which work well enough and I'd be loth to sell them... AND I wanna BCF2000 (strictly for the studio not live work!)

But as I'm using Live now........

Shit must stop being a gear whore!!!



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Message 30/30             07-Dec-04  @  12:21 PM   -   RE: We wanna go LIVE!!!

milan

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yeah... you could use it to automate the Urdu samples on the extended 12" mix we were talking about



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