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Forums - Music techology
Subject: sequencer packages for the PC--what's good?
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Original Message 1/6 29-Apr-98 @ 01:27 PM - sequencer packages for the PC--what's good?
Hello out there! My friends and I are just getting started in this giant money pit and we are beginning to search for a PC based sequencer package. We are considering
Cubase and Logic Audio among a few others. I am currently working with Logic Audio for the Mac in a production class and it seems quite easy to use but then again I have not gotten too far into the program yet. We would like to here from anyone that has used any of these programs--what do you like/dislike? Which is capable of handling the most programming trickery? Which will be useable from the the stand
point of a begginner and continue to be useful later on? For your information we
are interested in programming all sorts of breakbeat, DnB, and house. Anything any body has to say regarding the matter would be useful. Thank you and happy programming!!
Cubase and Logic Audio among a few others. I am currently working with Logic Audio for the Mac in a production class and it seems quite easy to use but then again I have not gotten too far into the program yet. We would like to here from anyone that has used any of these programs--what do you like/dislike? Which is capable of handling the most programming trickery? Which will be useable from the the stand
point of a begginner and continue to be useful later on? For your information we
are interested in programming all sorts of breakbeat, DnB, and house. Anything any body has to say regarding the matter would be useful. Thank you and happy programming!!
Message 2/6 29-Apr-98 @ 01:54 PM - RE: sequencer packages for the PC--what's good?
I've been using Logic Audio Windows (LAW) for over 3 years now, and I would have to say that I've been extreamly happy with it.
The flexablility of the environment is great. You can set up your own arpeggiators, delays, chord memorizors, faders, voice limiters, transformers, and more. The transformers are great because you can take a certain type of data (note, CC's, etc) and change it into something else. For example, I can take a quantized note pattern and change that into volume to use as volume gating. The note on's become volume up and the note off's become volume down. It's fast, it's simple, and with some tweeking in the environment, it can be done in real-time.
The layout of Logic is great too. You set up which windows are open in what is called a screenset, and you get 99 screensets per song.
There's more, but I gotta get out of here. See ya.
The flexablility of the environment is great. You can set up your own arpeggiators, delays, chord memorizors, faders, voice limiters, transformers, and more. The transformers are great because you can take a certain type of data (note, CC's, etc) and change it into something else. For example, I can take a quantized note pattern and change that into volume to use as volume gating. The note on's become volume up and the note off's become volume down. It's fast, it's simple, and with some tweeking in the environment, it can be done in real-time.
The layout of Logic is great too. You set up which windows are open in what is called a screenset, and you get 99 screensets per song.
There's more, but I gotta get out of here. See ya.
Message 3/6 29-Apr-98 @ 02:05 PM - RE: sequencer packages for the PC--what's good?
How much!!? How much!!?
Message 4/6 30-Apr-98 @ 05:54 PM - RE: sequencer packages for the PC--what's good?
The Hyper Editor is excellent for creating Drum and Bass patterns. You have the ability to see and edit multiple notes. You can name the indivdual key #'s that a sound is assigned to (this is called a definition), edit the individual velocities for each note within a definition, and create different quantize settings for each definition.
For example, I might have a snare sound assigned to C4 on my sampler. I would create a definition in the Hyper Edit window for the key C4, name it "snappy snare", and set the quantize grid for 32nd notes. Then I could draw in the note information for a snare roll and change the velocity settings for the notes to create a fade in.
I can have as many definitions as I want, which allows me to see and edit every note (and velocity for that note) on every key of my sampler.
The Hyper Edit window will also let you tweek controller, pitch bend, aftertouch, etc. messages too.
For example, I might have a snare sound assigned to C4 on my sampler. I would create a definition in the Hyper Edit window for the key C4, name it "snappy snare", and set the quantize grid for 32nd notes. Then I could draw in the note information for a snare roll and change the velocity settings for the notes to create a fade in.
I can have as many definitions as I want, which allows me to see and edit every note (and velocity for that note) on every key of my sampler.
The Hyper Edit window will also let you tweek controller, pitch bend, aftertouch, etc. messages too.
Message 5/6 30-Apr-98 @ 07:36 PM - RE: sequencer packages for the PC--what's good?
The price of Logic varies. Anywhere from $150 to $500 USD
Message 6/6 30-Apr-98 @ 08:36 PM - RE: sequencer packages for the PC--what's good?
cubase does all that too.... the drum map allows different quantise & length for each drum note....and the Midi Filter allows different data to be changed to output new data types...channels etc etc..........cakewalk pro audio and other cakewalks go one better having the SPLIT-NOTE CAL.... CAL files in cakewalk are command runs that anoyne can create with an open programming template from Twelve-Tones... these are free for s/w coders who can write RUNTIME cal's..... so for cakewalk, select a drum party on the grid... (you can edit all the notes individually of coures)...run the CAL on that part or track,(all) and it splits the drums into different tracks for each note.... cool !..... then each drum sound or note of a riff, can have it;s own dedicate controller track quite easily... finally it can all be re-blended if you like....
pretty much all the top sequencers have all the same facilities implemented in different ways.... I have never spent time with logic, but cake & cubase each are in the end about as good as the other all said and done I find....
for example... you can get pissed with cake, cos it doesnt have the nifty right-mouse-click to re-select tool... but then if you get into the keystrokes... in edit mode, a simple click of D,E or S keys on the PC keyboard, switch the edit tool in a flsh... it's just what you are used to........ setting uo cycle loops used to wazz me off with cakewalk, cos i only knew how to click the CYCLE button to ON, then go to the menu to set the loop points etc.... pain... but i discovered after a while, that a simple click on the top-timebar, and a drag, get's a highlighted loop in seconds.... you never have to leave the track-pane area......just click on time-bar at bar5 then drag across to bar 9..... done !.... just click the cycle button again after each new set of locaters is installed and it becomes the current one,,,, I presume there is also ability to build a list of cue points, locked to keys as with cubse, and i presume Logic also has multiple cue points.....
Cakewalk is pretty underated... but most of all, with all these new 'Multi-soundcard & realtime FX' version come out, we tend to forget the older single soundcard versions.... these are incredibly stable.... both cubase, (the V2.8 is great)....and V5.0 or 5.1 Cakewalk pro audio..... of the two, cakewlk is very powerful for a single soundcard s/w..... it automanages the hard disk, has eq & other processing (no timestretch.... but hell you can use cool-edit demo for that for free !)....... all in all, on a P100 it will easily do 8 tracks of totally rock solid audio with midi..... the only thing is.... no realtime fx,.... so a bit of tinkering is needed to add fx to individual tracks, IF you need that... but if the left output is doing drum- loops parts (panned left).... and another sound is panned right... you get at least a 2 output system.... so you can set up fx, with a full duplex card, and record the results.... or export the files to say coll-edit demo again.... and add chorus, reverb, etc,..... eq and compresssion are already in the s/w.....
cakewaks, audio edit is cool too, except it cant keep displaying waves as it redrws pages... but in practice this is not a problem.... go into audio edit, and you can cut drag and paste drum parts around, to create new drum parts or rolls.... as you snip an audio part, each newly created section gains a tiny Volume knob.... just tweak it to adjust volume for each individual edit... VST has a more trick method, BUT.... you can adjust steps of volume graphically across an audio file in Cubase VST... I dunno if cakewalk 5 can do that... probably can with a controller draw type edit.... never used it.....
so..... for a cheap system.... single streo out soundcard.... Cakewalk pro audio is VERY cheap to come by.... runs at ease and stably on a CHEAP machine.... manages the audio including editing out unused audio parts in songs... (which vst also does i think ((purge audio command ?))....Cakewalk is.easy for a beginner... (no file naming etc).... and can also offer great working speed.....
it's the only one with audio that is pretty much 100% guaranteed to run on any pc and card combi..... it is very powerful.... and with a bit of external kit it handles alot of your loops and longer samples..... with some judicious mixing it can easily create great tracks.....
I'm a bit vague on V-6 and 7........but it is very stable as usual.... I didnt like the FX protocol as much as VST.... and i never can figure why if you ahve 7 audio tracks, you cannot just click a mixer buttton, and reveal a ready to go mixer that add's channels as you add tracks....(is there this?...i cant find it..)... I can find a mixer, that opens 1 channel for each track selected... and there is a BIG delay in the demo's I've tried when adjusting fader , pan, etc..... much more than VST... which is pretty instant on a P200MMX or K6........
but the midi is very stable.... and cakewalk doesnt loose the audio card at all as VST can do.....
what i've seen of cakewalk 6 tells me it'd be great for people who want to play most of their midi in, editing when needed can acheive most things as other s/wares, but I find Cakewalks strength is as a more musicians as iopposed to technichians s/w..... so play stuff in, and it;s real fast... controller work is TTHE BEST..... it pisses on vst for controller set-up and drawing in with pencil etc..... Cakewalks management side is HUGE.......... but cake is slightly more fiddly for edit made work,,,, wher you are building parts with pencils etc.... fiddly shit........ I reckon cakewalk 6 & 7 would be excellent with a mmulti-out soundcard.... using outboard eq & fx as normal..... VST is probaly better if you really DO want to get a 'in-machine' thing... (cakewalk owners will say it can do it too.... IT CAN but i find it harder to come to terms with... it's TOO fucking fiddly..... I want a mixer that just pops up with ALLL the audio tracks on it at once... sure it is great t o build channels....add on Channel butttons, faders etc.... assign them to functions etc etc.... (as with Mixermaps in cubase)... But I want also a ready to go audio mixer..... also, in cakewalk, I dont ilke the fx setup..... but all in all...
ALSO.... cakewalk has a very upfront sound (sounds weird to say that but it does)
DO NOT OVERLOOK CAKEWALK....AND ESPECIALLY AN OLDER V5 or 5.1 VERSION WITH A CHEAPER MACHINE AND SINGLE SOUNDCARD CAN BE AWESOMELY EFFECTIVE (for about 400 squid at cheap s/h rates for a 8 -12 audio track and midi system with stereo soundcard output !!)......... lets not get lost in mega new pc power, and multi-out card systems with huge track figures !!..... (i know i am !!!!)
pretty much all the top sequencers have all the same facilities implemented in different ways.... I have never spent time with logic, but cake & cubase each are in the end about as good as the other all said and done I find....
for example... you can get pissed with cake, cos it doesnt have the nifty right-mouse-click to re-select tool... but then if you get into the keystrokes... in edit mode, a simple click of D,E or S keys on the PC keyboard, switch the edit tool in a flsh... it's just what you are used to........ setting uo cycle loops used to wazz me off with cakewalk, cos i only knew how to click the CYCLE button to ON, then go to the menu to set the loop points etc.... pain... but i discovered after a while, that a simple click on the top-timebar, and a drag, get's a highlighted loop in seconds.... you never have to leave the track-pane area......just click on time-bar at bar5 then drag across to bar 9..... done !.... just click the cycle button again after each new set of locaters is installed and it becomes the current one,,,, I presume there is also ability to build a list of cue points, locked to keys as with cubse, and i presume Logic also has multiple cue points.....
Cakewalk is pretty underated... but most of all, with all these new 'Multi-soundcard & realtime FX' version come out, we tend to forget the older single soundcard versions.... these are incredibly stable.... both cubase, (the V2.8 is great)....and V5.0 or 5.1 Cakewalk pro audio..... of the two, cakewlk is very powerful for a single soundcard s/w..... it automanages the hard disk, has eq & other processing (no timestretch.... but hell you can use cool-edit demo for that for free !)....... all in all, on a P100 it will easily do 8 tracks of totally rock solid audio with midi..... the only thing is.... no realtime fx,.... so a bit of tinkering is needed to add fx to individual tracks, IF you need that... but if the left output is doing drum- loops parts (panned left).... and another sound is panned right... you get at least a 2 output system.... so you can set up fx, with a full duplex card, and record the results.... or export the files to say coll-edit demo again.... and add chorus, reverb, etc,..... eq and compresssion are already in the s/w.....
cakewaks, audio edit is cool too, except it cant keep displaying waves as it redrws pages... but in practice this is not a problem.... go into audio edit, and you can cut drag and paste drum parts around, to create new drum parts or rolls.... as you snip an audio part, each newly created section gains a tiny Volume knob.... just tweak it to adjust volume for each individual edit... VST has a more trick method, BUT.... you can adjust steps of volume graphically across an audio file in Cubase VST... I dunno if cakewalk 5 can do that... probably can with a controller draw type edit.... never used it.....
so..... for a cheap system.... single streo out soundcard.... Cakewalk pro audio is VERY cheap to come by.... runs at ease and stably on a CHEAP machine.... manages the audio including editing out unused audio parts in songs... (which vst also does i think ((purge audio command ?))....Cakewalk is.easy for a beginner... (no file naming etc).... and can also offer great working speed.....
it's the only one with audio that is pretty much 100% guaranteed to run on any pc and card combi..... it is very powerful.... and with a bit of external kit it handles alot of your loops and longer samples..... with some judicious mixing it can easily create great tracks.....
I'm a bit vague on V-6 and 7........but it is very stable as usual.... I didnt like the FX protocol as much as VST.... and i never can figure why if you ahve 7 audio tracks, you cannot just click a mixer buttton, and reveal a ready to go mixer that add's channels as you add tracks....(is there this?...i cant find it..)... I can find a mixer, that opens 1 channel for each track selected... and there is a BIG delay in the demo's I've tried when adjusting fader , pan, etc..... much more than VST... which is pretty instant on a P200MMX or K6........
but the midi is very stable.... and cakewalk doesnt loose the audio card at all as VST can do.....
what i've seen of cakewalk 6 tells me it'd be great for people who want to play most of their midi in, editing when needed can acheive most things as other s/wares, but I find Cakewalks strength is as a more musicians as iopposed to technichians s/w..... so play stuff in, and it;s real fast... controller work is TTHE BEST..... it pisses on vst for controller set-up and drawing in with pencil etc..... Cakewalks management side is HUGE.......... but cake is slightly more fiddly for edit made work,,,, wher you are building parts with pencils etc.... fiddly shit........ I reckon cakewalk 6 & 7 would be excellent with a mmulti-out soundcard.... using outboard eq & fx as normal..... VST is probaly better if you really DO want to get a 'in-machine' thing... (cakewalk owners will say it can do it too.... IT CAN but i find it harder to come to terms with... it's TOO fucking fiddly..... I want a mixer that just pops up with ALLL the audio tracks on it at once... sure it is great t o build channels....add on Channel butttons, faders etc.... assign them to functions etc etc.... (as with Mixermaps in cubase)... But I want also a ready to go audio mixer..... also, in cakewalk, I dont ilke the fx setup..... but all in all...
ALSO.... cakewalk has a very upfront sound (sounds weird to say that but it does)
DO NOT OVERLOOK CAKEWALK....AND ESPECIALLY AN OLDER V5 or 5.1 VERSION WITH A CHEAPER MACHINE AND SINGLE SOUNDCARD CAN BE AWESOMELY EFFECTIVE (for about 400 squid at cheap s/h rates for a 8 -12 audio track and midi system with stereo soundcard output !!)......... lets not get lost in mega new pc power, and multi-out card systems with huge track figures !!..... (i know i am !!!!)
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