Forums - Mixing & FX
Subject: Seeking TRANCE
Viewing all 35 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3 4
Original Message 1/35 30-Nov-00 @ 12:49 AM - Seeking TRANCE
Message 3/35 30-Nov-00 @ 06:41 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 4/35 01-Dec-00 @ 06:12 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
it, learn to master it, read about it,
decide whether you have any interest
in caryying on, if you do, come back
and lurk and learn.
Peaceout,
Peter
Message 5/35 02-Dec-00 @ 03:22 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 6/35 02-Dec-00 @ 06:31 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 7/35 02-Dec-00 @ 08:13 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 8/35 03-Dec-00 @ 02:39 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
these sounds have delay & a touch of reverb only, no compresion etc - i could plug dx & vst fx in series with these sounds with a higher power pc, which gladly is coming next week at last so i can get deeper into producing with the s/w's.... quite interesting stuff it all is, it's nice to programme sounds whilst chilling on the bed horizontal with cans on which is how these sounds were made
Message 9/35 29-Dec-00 @ 03:42 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
If you think trance is easy to write then you are writing s*it trance. I have been producing dance music in recording studio`s for over 7 years and in the last 2 years I have seen a massive step in technology and musical integrity in this area. Trance is at the pinnacle of synth technology, you cannot right proper trance with one analogue synth or a just a PC. My studio has 7 hardware synths (analogue and digital) and I am still not happy with my sound. In order to create depth, expression and all of the collages of arps and melodies and sweeps required you need a big synth budget, alot of outboard, a good 8-bus desk and damn good set of monitors to get your mix through.
Period.
Message 12/35 31-Dec-00 @ 02:42 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 13/35 01-Jan-01 @ 01:14 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 14/35 01-Jan-01 @ 06:24 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 15/35 06-Jan-01 @ 06:12 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/192/ddjfreon.html
I really tried to go sonic here. check out all the tracks...maybe use really good headphones.
Message 16/35 07-Jan-01 @ 10:22 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 18/35 08-Jan-01 @ 08:54 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
glad you clarified. even though I dont write trance
Message 19/35 13-Jan-01 @ 08:50 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 20/35 30-Jan-01 @ 12:41 AM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
A limiter will not help you really. The sort of sound your after is only really available with very expensive equipment.
Sash!`s music is produced in a studio armed with lots of analogue and digital synths loads of valve gear and a huge arsen of sounds.
So many different areas of the production process add to this level of sound quality.
The programmers who did that album have years of experience, they know how to program sounds exactly to fit those gaps in the tunes.
The first thing you need to learn is how to program an analogue synth. Every single parameter on a synth should be understood by the programmer, nothing should be ignored and then your creativity is only restricted my your imagination.
With regards to mixing you can, mix to a reasonable quality on a decent 8 bus desk (Mackie, Spirit, Studiomaster etc), but your sound will always lack the warmth of a bigger desk with a better eq. This isn`t always a bad thing, many trance producers (John Digweed, Ferry Corsten, Steve Helstrip etc) use a desk like the above. But their sound is always alot thinner than a Sash!`s mix, listen, use your ears.
Valve equipment is the key to Sash!`s sound, every sound in his mixes has been processed heavily, but don`t think that you need that level of power to write a good tune.
A skilled engineer with a reasonable setup can still produce a convincing mix, just like all of the above, minus the warmth tho...
Message 21/35 30-Jan-01 @ 12:07 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
can anyone elaborate on what a home producer can use to help achieve these results.
i have a really old studiomaster mixer, 3630 compressor and quadraverb. that's it!!
so first change the mixer?? analogue or digital? this subject is now begining to grate on me, what do the pros use still, analogue i bet!?? more outboard??
my finished tunes sound to me to be a bit two dimensional if you know what i mean. and also lacking a little bit of
depth if you know what i mean.
what should i purchase in the future given i'm not a multi million pound studio.
cheers
Message 22/35 30-Jan-01 @ 03:22 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
(Equadoooooor) or Sasha.
Message 23/35 30-Jan-01 @ 06:40 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 24/35 31-Jan-01 @ 02:40 PM - RE: Trance/Dance production tips
To Fink,
The key to good production is down to two things, `skill` and `experience`. I know how difficult and frustrating it is when you start out and listen to all these records and can`t work out how it is done.
You don`t say what synths you have in your studio, as the key to good dance production is sounds. You can`t write a riff without the correct sound and this should always be your starting point when writing a tune.
Build up percussion layers first, find a good drum loop and then look for bass and synth sounds to layer ontop of these, ensuring that your riffs and melodies are constructed around the groove of the percussion. Everything should sit together and there`s should be no pauses or 16th note gaps at all (this is very important in dance, riffs should play off other riffs and phrases and sounds should answer each other)
Your musical structure should always work in 8 bar segments. In dance everything changes on the 8, either an additional layer comes in, or a layer is removed, depend on where the tune is going and what stage it is at. This maintains constant interest through out the piece.
God! I`m letting out a lot of secrets here, must go now as I`m stringin together another phat cut as we speak...
See ya.
Steve
Message 25/35 31-Jan-01 @ 11:57 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 26/35 01-Feb-01 @ 11:23 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Try to think about your mix as you write. Really the mix should not be a great hassle if you have prepared for it in the earlier processes of a tune.
The key to this is selecting and programming sounds that fit before grabbing eq and fx.
Using filters, amp and filter envs to shape your sounds is all part of getting the mix spot on.
Many people wonder why their mixes sound so messing without realising that you can`t fix a badly programmed sound with eq. When all of your sounds are put together they should sound almost mixed before even approaching the desk.
Sounds and programming is the most important part of mixing as this is the source of your signal and the deskeq should only be used to gently enhance or reduce certain frequencies which may need slight attention.
I might chat about compression tomorrow as the wrong technique can fuck things up quite considerably, but the right technique can allow you to have a mix which would hardly need any work in the post production stage.
Cheers all,
Steve
Message 27/35 02-Feb-01 @ 01:40 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
People allways say that make beat and bass work together which propably means that they shouldn't overlap each other's frequencies.
Which one should (generally) be lower? and how do you know that they are "working together" besides each one can be heard clearly when playing at the same time? Is that essential?
sometimes when i drop out some part suddenly another (which i had forgotten)stands out very clearly. Is it a sign of bad mixing?
I know this is very hard to discuss when not hearing actual thing.
Message 28/35 02-Feb-01 @ 02:35 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 29/35 02-Feb-01 @ 11:29 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
I think I know what your hitting on.
What your saying is how do you balance a low frequency kick drum over a low frequency sub/synth bass sound and allow the two to work together?
This all depends on what style of music you are writing. Generally for music based around break beats I would say put the kick slightly above the sub bass by tuning it up a bit and using a touch of eq.
The problem with stuff like this is there are no real rules. Another thing to be aware of is that your average listener sometimes refers to certain sounds as bass, but they arn`t actually bass.
You can put a kick in a tune and boost the lower midz and slam a really deep sub bass underneath it to fill out the bottom. Drum and Bass producers often use this approach.
Or sometimes the reverse is better. You might want to have a really muffled detuned, deep, muddy kick and a lighter bass sound (say an acoustic bass) grooving over the top. Hip hop tunes often use this technique.
At the end of the day it`s all down to the sounds you use and what effect you`re after. Sometimes if your tune is really minimal you might want to mould the kick and the bass into one and let them play off each other as each note hits the floor, as you described above. A Tribe Called Quest did this in their Find A Way track and the tune is just bass, bass, bass!! Same with a lot fo Q-Tips stuff, check Vibrant Thing.
I`ve just reread your message an noticed something else that might be causing your problem.
If sounds are jump out when other sounds are not playing then yes this is definately a mix issue. Difficult for me to answer because I don`t know what you`re monitoring on, but generally try not to boast to much bass and definately cut bass off other sounds in your tune to allow the bottom to bleed from the bass sounds and not the other instruments.
All mid range sounds will have a fundemental freqency in the bottom and you need to remove some of this with eq so the bottom end from your bass sounds are clear and not mushing up with every thing else.
Try to flatten things out nicely by cutting more than boasting and don`t over do any sounds.
If your using monitors then my rule to you is -
`Keep it flat, keep it smooth and it will transfer`.
Best regards,
Steve
p.s I actually write dance music, although I have referenced against other stuff above and maybe setting up a website soon with loads of info to try and help people through this frustrating stuff, watch this space....
Message 30/35 03-Feb-01 @ 08:14 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
how bout just writing articles HERE! theres space for it
Message 31/35 04-Feb-01 @ 06:28 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
also how far apart the monitors are makeas a hell of a difference....sitting behind your mixer about 4-5 feet from the speaker shelf they should be like 7 feet apart or so... not closer.... but experiment with a CD you like playing thru the speakers,,,,,, move them apart and check the mix, move them toghether... find the sweet spot!! -- too close and you loose stereo definition but also it changes the center point sound which is where the the bass/groove energy resides - to far apart and the middle of the mix starts to dissapear and again you are mixing to what you hear so you over emphasis the center 'punch' to compensate for it's 'dissapearence' and end up with again a crappy mix
having your speakers on the longest wall of the room helps the sound, like dont stuff your studio up into the small end of the room lengthways, use the width of the room - putting your tape & book shelves etc behind you facing the speakers helps to break up waves hitting the back wall.
Message 32/35 06-Feb-01 @ 03:19 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
I got to admit K that i'm "thinking" my EQ. Too much i guess. I'm watching the faders and counting frequencies. Really stupid when i think of it now...
(Trying to make everything to be heard is propably too problem of mixing one's own material.Guilty as charged anyway)
I live in metric system for gods sake!!!! Damn feets and pounds
I'll have to experiment with my "sweet spot" some more (no not that!)
Lately i've been struggling with the mix of one new track ("Squeez") but i just can't get bass right. Low offbeat "ooomph" seems to disappear when other instruments come in and at the end of the track it jumps out again. Besides i've have to leave that track to rest for a while becasue i have started to dislike it.
Not just selfish promoting but humbly asking for opinion... (above link)
Message 33/35 06-Feb-01 @ 06:40 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Message 34/35 07-Feb-01 @ 07:30 PM - RE: Production stuff
The reason why your bass is getting muddy and losing power when extra sounds are added is because those extra sounds are carry too much bottom end and are cancelling out and distorting the bass frequencies from your offbeat bass.
The answer to this is to cut bass off those other sounds. Thin them out! People always thing in terms of addition when mixing, but cutting bass from one sound will allow other sounds to be heard clearer in the mix.
Your bottom end generally starts at about 300hz, so get all of your (assuming you`re writing trance) arps, pads and whatever else and cut about minus 2-3db off bottom of all of those sounds using a low shelving eq or a high pass filter.
Once the bottom has been removed from these components of your tune you`ll find that your mix will have headroom once again and the bass sound should reappear again.
Then it`s just a case of balancing things until everything has it own level of power.
Try and reduce things as much as you can with eq to the point where it is almost compromising sound quality, this will give you much more space/headroom in the mix.
Good luck!
Steve
Message 35/35 14-Feb-01 @ 11:13 PM - RE: Seeking TRANCE
Steve you seem to know quite a bit about producing/engineering,what music do you write? I have loads of questions I wouldn`t mind asking.
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