computer vs. hardware - Drums / rhythms / programming forums

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Subject: computer vs. hardware

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Original Message 1/48 14-Jun-00 @ 05:51 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

agonie

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oh dam, hit the return button, randomly
sorry guys...
let us talk about this topic:
in my opinion is using computer programs for creating samples (soft synths) not very useful.
1. for making music you need an INSTRUMENT you can rely to personally, appearence, functions vitalise your mind, a flat, shivering screen harms your creatrivity..
2. i don't like monitors! i have got a doepfer schaltwerk for composing in midi, much better than cubase

o.k. i agree: sequencing on a computer is standart, you have got better support and more offers.
i started to make music with my amiga (protracker!), still one of my cherriest machines, i do not doubt wheter it is easier to get a cheerful result on your comp than with your soundmachine, it is!

i am asking myself right now if music isn't in any realtion to machines, probably....

maybe i just this confusing tap is just a reaction on the current developement of the music market.

yet i am sure you cannot reproduce the sound of a music machine with a comp. (hmm..pulsar...letting the hardware in your co). the reason is as simply as hard to believe: hardware-problem, computer simulate, m-machines (of course! analogue babies, i love them) produce!

it could be that i am talking a lot of shit..in your perspective... i know what i am saying is true for me.. so let me have your comments...

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Message 2/48 14-Jun-00 @ 07:33 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Jasper

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not really rythms but what the hey. I aggree, I'm getting really nice bass patterns purely from a microwave2's arpeggiator.. messing with pitch bending and stuff realtime.. I'm ending up with swirling basslines that really evolve and swell in and out..

couldn't do that just on my pc, and it wasn't for not trying.

you need that power solely used for creating sounds.

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Message 3/48 14-Jun-00 @ 01:25 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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In my opinion hardware is what sets you free to do something personal.I wuv my MPC and my 777.My G4 pisses me off.It's cool for mastering and video editing though.

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Message 4/48 14-Jun-00 @ 10:05 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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you can do some great stuff in s/w... lots of stuff gets released that way. plus some people use stuff like vst just with loops and make toons.

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Message 5/48 15-Jun-00 @ 03:39 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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yep u can do cool stuff with samples & loops if you are creative about it, tunes can easy be done with loops in Cubase or whatever, using all the plugn fx to add interest or whatever...

my fav software app is Zap's LDB, very wicked prog IMO. it's not pretty, not even realtime but it has a top notch user interface, great for creating drumloops. i use it as a kinda scratch pad for getting ideas. when something nice comes up, dump the loops/hits to sampler and mangle from there, mmm yummy.

some software is very creative.

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Message 6/48 15-Jun-00 @ 03:41 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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k, the carriage returns don't seem to register or something in this forum..?

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Message 7/48 15-Jun-00 @ 06:55 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Jasper

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do

them

twice

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Message 8/48 15-Jun-00 @ 06:55 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Jasper

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hey your right... that used to work..

eeee

eeee

eeee

test

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Message 9/48 15-Jun-00 @ 09:50 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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true hardware and old pc's like atari's rule when it comes to dance cos they are tite... so many tracks on the www sound sloppy timingwise, and i often hear that and wonder what sequencer was used... rock solid timing is 100% critical, a simple beat with a few patterns will outshine a more complexed track if the former is dead tite and the latter has timing discrepancies. - it's GOT to be rock-tite to sound right

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Message 10/48 15-Jun-00 @ 10:30 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

cmorgenroth

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it was very insightful reading this discussion cos I've had weeks worth of worrying if my first setup should be entirely computer based or if I should use some hardware components. anyone have any more insights to offer on that topic? any experience with what components work well on a computer and which don't?

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Message 11/48 15-Jun-00 @ 01:14 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

swanofnever

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k:

this (computer-based timing) is something i've been worrying about, cause i just upgraded my setup to have my pentium (200MMX/64MB) running cubase (w/ MOTU midiexpress) for sequencing (previously it was a w-30 internal sequencer... i just _love_ grids full of numbers...)

anyway it's not up and running yet (i need to look into insurance before moving stuff into my apartment), but i'm starting to dread the first time i use it... is there anything i can do to solve this? i'm not doing digital audio or anything, and i'd have no problem wiping my pc and reserving it solely for cubase (and sample editing) if this is going to help, but i'm afraid there's nothing i can do... will an older ver. of cubase help? or should i pick up an atari? i don't really have tons of cash to put into a sequencer (it's all going into patchbays and snakes), but at the same time anything but rock-solid timing is not going to be acceptible. i'm only using it for midi... if a 386 can handle that, can't my pentium? or does the way windows work fuck everything up (i've got w95)?
anyway, any hints/tips/advice would be greatly appreciated, even if it's only "you're screwed, you can't fix windows"... then at least i'd know for sure.
thanks

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Message 12/48 15-Jun-00 @ 02:05 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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Software or Hardware?

The new Creamware sampler and modular synth cards plus Yamahas PLG cards could be the way to go...hardware making the sounds and software for what its good at - editing and storing.

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Message 13/48 16-Jun-00 @ 10:03 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Frostbyte

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Everything in the PC, I don't think so. Maybe in a couple of years. I mean, try running a sequencer, a soft sampler, one softsynth and plug-ins and see what happens. That doesn't mean the pc is not usefull, just see it as another tool in your rig. If you're broke , just get Fruity and go nuts, it's a great program. And you'll still use it when you get a hardware sampler.

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Message 14/48 17-Jun-00 @ 09:53 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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You would get a lot more satisfaction out of something you can touch w/ something other than a mouse.Besides computers have a fatal flaw(@ least 4 me),latency,not to mention crap feel in the timing.Maybe if all you know is the computer it might be ok.For me I started sequencing on a roland W-30 back in '89.B4 that I just used a drum machine and an arppegiator.So I can't stand the fucking computer.This friend of mine who owns or has owned about every piece of hardware and also every computer seq. says for computers the Atari wins hands down.

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Message 15/48 17-Jun-00 @ 09:31 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Not Even

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I use a Latronic Notron as master and a Roland 80 slaved to it. plenty of tracks, no timing issues. Yes it cost a bit much but it all works tight. Also the interfaces are well designed. Well designed Roland and SUPERB AS FUCK Notron. Notron friendly buddy sequencer. Yes. Allrighty folks.

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Message 16/48 17-Jun-00 @ 09:32 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

______

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Roland MC-80 that should read.

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Message 17/48 18-Jun-00 @ 01:35 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

adjklf

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id have to say you all are crazy if you cant at least agree software is just as good as hardware.

its a huge pain in the ass to use my MPC and have to step back through the pattern to find a beat i want to fall on a different step. and then lets say i want it 2 steps after a hihat, so then i have to find where thats located...etc etc...lots of work on a small screen

whereas with something like any freeware pc sequencer program, you can have a nice grid with all instruments layed out before you. at a glance click or unclick a step. its just so much faster to work

with at least 75% of professional users (lame term i know) using programs such as logic and cubase etc, that has to say something about them.

sometimes hardware makes things harder but lets you come up with different ideas etc. all has its place, but the arguments about timing and not being able to make good tracks....come on now...

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Message 18/48 18-Jun-00 @ 07:13 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

______

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Stubborn fuck is me. I used to think Cubase *wasn't* sent from hell. Oh well, I've taken a strange route. Can't go telling everyone to use the setup i do (although having *those two* pieces of hardware right there is unbeatable for me) because that would be a bit rude. Use what gets you the result you seek, ideally with minimum of headache & long-winded processes.

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Message 19/48 08-Jul-00 @ 01:43 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Espoo2

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Hmmm.... I love all my software.... RAM is a bitch though... but if the mouse is your problem, get a phat boy.... real-time knobs to twiddle your softsynths with, and a midi keyboard to trigger the samples... works for me...

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Message 20/48 12-Jul-00 @ 02:48 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

oprev

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where do I get Cubase and other good software?

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Message 21/48 12-Jul-00 @ 10:01 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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um... a music shop ??? - personally i think everyone should have a cheap s/h hardware sequencer... dump the track over to that for final playback/mix... then you get a titeness mac's and pc's cant get so far

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Message 22/48 13-Jul-00 @ 02:48 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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really? i know the timing has to be tight but is that really neccessary? are you trying to tell me you can hear the difference between logic running midi only and a hardware sequencer?

oh hangon, i guess if u are recording to a computer at the same time as playing the midi stuff (same machine) that could sloppify the timing cause it would be multitasking, makes sense i guess.

how about an atari... or a 486 with Win 3x?

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Message 23/48 13-Jul-00 @ 07:20 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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of course you can... even on straight playback.. ahh... like old 12 bit samplers the hardware sequencer is don and will never die... check out Lagowski's/SETI's article (articles section)... he sequences on a MAC, then mixes from a hardware unit... the beauty is they can be has as cheap as 20 or 30 quid for like an old QX7 OR QX21... you can simply dump the mac/pc contents over then sync-up the s/w sequencer is there is audio parts on the s/w seq' tracks at all...

and atari's RUUUULLLLEEE.... i dont think i'd feel confident to do an 8 hour live set with a pc, but i've done that in a feild working off a petrol generator with the trusty old 1040, and hey, it even rained at one point (ok, we WERE under a large tree) -

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Message 24/48 02-Aug-00 @ 12:53 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

nunchucks

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like it really matters
i've heard good stuff made on casio home keyboards
all equipment has strenths and weaknesses
knowing how to exploit and avoid these is half the
joy
if you love what your doing it doesn't matter
as long as your creating a groove
that really all you should care
not if your going the be the next big thing
okay i'll get off my soapbox now
sorry

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Message 25/48 02-Aug-00 @ 05:23 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

bokken

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seen

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Message 26/48 18-Aug-00 @ 11:20 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Tomek S.

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I agree with nunchucks here.
Aphex Twin uses computer exclusively these days, and I wouldn't say he's not creative, or that he's music is not personal. Great classical composeres often wrote with just a piece of paper, same with contemporary composers. Creativity comes from the inside.

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Message 27/48 18-Aug-00 @ 04:15 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Jasper

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that's all very well, there are some other artists who are doing the same... erm? tobais shmitt (or however yo spell his name).

but, it don't seem my idea of fun.. and that would show in my tracks.. I need that equipment to give me inspiration.. a pc won't do it for me on it's own.

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Message 28/48 20-Aug-00 @ 01:40 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Tomek S.

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Sure, to each his own they say.

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Message 29/48 20-Aug-00 @ 07:40 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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all i mean about hardware sequencers for mixing playback is their clock is so tight, it really can make a big difference to a club track

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Message 30/48 24-Aug-00 @ 06:01 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

jaswho1

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I agree with K here man.....the timing on a hardware
sequencer is tight as hell because the ppqn is very low
as with most drum machines... think about it my old
mmt8 is 96 ppqn and my first cubaselite ver. on a
macplus in 1994 was 480 ppqn(have no idea what it is
today)......on the hardware units the notes fall right
in the pockets...there's no serious mutlitasking or
buffering going on... oh and no crashing for the most
part and losing tracks and your mind when it
happens...how many times has your shit freezed after
working on a track for a while and you just walk away
as it reboots and lose the inspirations in
anger....!!!!!!@@@#%!!I too check out tracks on line
and the quants are off alot or the quants are different
in the same sequence I.E. kick-Q16 snr-Q16T hat-Q32
fill-Q32T bass-Q16T you get the pisture that shit will
catch up and to a rythmic ear shit starts falling off
trust me I can HEAR IT......Computers are amazing I'm
convinced BUT this music thing is a hard beast to tame
and the artist or musican is even harder to please...I
do beleive for dance music or similar production style
music has to be spot on and should be spot on...drum
machines and HW sequencers do

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Message 31/48 24-Aug-00 @ 06:06 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

______

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hardware sequencers with 480ppqn can be/are tight as tight too.

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Message 32/48 25-Aug-00 @ 12:02 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

jaswho1

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huh???? what are you adding.....of course 480ppqn on
a computer or hardware unit can be dead on it...but
there is more room for error and the untrained ear will
tend to let the quants just fly all over and sections
don't match up tightly...anyway I guess as always it's
up to the user but heed the warning when shit falls off
or doesn't lock up tight even a little bit WE CAN HEAR
IT....this aien't analog vs digital this is on/tight VS
off/sloppy....hey do your thang no matter what...

_______jAswho

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Message 33/48 27-Aug-00 @ 05:03 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

arska

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come on guys, don't make "hardware" a fetish; if h/w sequencer is a midi playback machine it just can't get over the the deficiences of the midi standard; that midi is a serial protocol unable to trigger 2 or more note on events simultaneously; every note on takes 1 ms so if there's a lot of events, midi smears them all over the place timingwise, no matter if it's atari or mpc what ever.
That's the reason you need to work in audio to get tight timing. or use internal step sequencers or arpeggiators not based on midi. Or good musicians.

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Message 34/48 28-Aug-00 @ 12:11 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

whatever?

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good answer!!!(saracastic) your right about one thing
midi is not a perfect protcol and HD step seqs or
arpeggiators as you stated are as tight as it probably
gets......but audio in computer is great when that's
your deal but if you want to make tight sequences, what
does an audio program have to do with it unless your
ready to edit each track one by one to lock it up (a
very tedious lame practice IMHO)... I mean shit the
post was which is easier or better computer or hardware
seq. and why!!!!it's all there forget about doing seq's
then redoing them in an audio program to tighten
up...Unless you've got time and a nice fast
computer...pick up an old cheap drum machine or
sequencer and tell me is easy as hell to create tight
as a drum-based stuff or what????

I rest my mouse go for yours cause it's way cheaper and
easier on the brain/pocket to pick up a cheap under
$100 unit and experiment that's all!!!!!!!

love will k

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Message 35/48 08-Sep-00 @ 05:29 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

chris

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I use both h/w and s/w...

Cubase to make the editing easier and a Roland MC-80 to do live PA.

Transferring MIDI files to the MC-80 can be a pain though... I've not managed to transfer with program change messages intact - I've had to add them back in by hand on the MC-80.

I'm thinking of ditching the MC-80 for live and using the on-board sequencer on my E-mu e5000 Ultra...

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Message 36/48 12-Sep-00 @ 03:04 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

n.n

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One problem about Hardware Seq is
that the Midi spec is a piece of crap,
and if you use a computer + VST you don't need
to go through Midi.

Too many CC's and your beats stuff up.

My 2 cents

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Message 37/48 12-Sep-00 @ 07:48 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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midi spec is fine on hardware sequencer, none of this has to do with serial code or the amount of data etc being moved. The timing is tighter due to it being dsp based with a fixed clock pulse whereas pc & mac & atari etc sequencer just aint so solid cos of the other crap the buss is juggling at the same time whereas a HW sequencer or an atari doesnt share it's midi buss with any other data, Atari's have the equivilent of a PC AGP port for midi with a dedicated two-way bus.... my mate just upgraded from an MMT8 to an Atari , despite that Atari's are VERY tite, he still says he noticed a difference in timing and the atari is sloppier....

By the way did you read Amiga are pushing their OS again, for a variety of platforms this time and they have a developemnt kit out etc.

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Message 38/48 27-Sep-00 @ 10:38 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

asdxtrax

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am i wrong or isnt a slight drift of beats good ? i mean 1ms isnt going to matter either way. even the best live drummer isnt going to be accurate within a 1000th of a second

seems like a little "feel" is a good thing. Just like the analog tunings drifting slightly so its not so cold and clinical

i think when people listen to music we expect slight changes and if its to perfect it sounds odd.

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Message 39/48 28-Sep-00 @ 02:40 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

ivan

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A small random shift of timing isn't good, since what makes human drummers sound groovy is that their timing offsets aren't random. If the beat drifts it's not going to sound tight or good.. A nice regular (ie hardware) stream of note events will sound tighter and better.

Windows is crap for this kind of task, since it has crap multitasking and isn't really made to handle media streams. The new Amiga OS isn't really that exciting, since it's basically a developers kit on top of Linux. Don't expect anything like the old amigas. (Kind of the same thing Viscount does with the OB12...)

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Message 40/48 28-Sep-00 @ 08:32 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

ggehiere

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The biggest asset to any instrument is not necessary
it's sounds, but the the interface through which we can
control those sounds. It's great to have synth, soft or
hard, that has amazing effects and so forth, but if the
artist connot control those sounds or arrange notes in
an intuitive and logical manner the instrument will not
see much use or exploitation of it's full abilites.

I have a friend who has an AN1X. He also has Logic, and
he always writes his sequences on the AN1X because he
finds he has more control than through Logic or any
other sequencer.

This is what I think makes most hardware superior:
control and access to it! Lack of these can make an
instrument suck, the DX-7 comes to mind. And ReBirth
only sounds good with a hardware controller (in my
opinion).

Without a hardware controller, software will not beat
hardware. It may someday sound phatter, and better, but
I think the above is true, regardless.

An anyways, I've found that most people who use
computers solely just get distracted and surf the net
or look at porn instead of writing tracks - there's not
much commitment. Or just stealing samples of beats and
such they could never write themselv

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Message 41/48 28-Sep-00 @ 10:46 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Jasper

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that's something the an1x does well is that recordable loop thing. (ages since I owned it).. free-eg was it? but maybe your friend isn't exploiting logic fully.. how about the hyper editor??
I've got around 16 control sliders setup from the hyper to create repetative loops on my microwave2, in my opinion it's the best thing about the whole program.

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Message 42/48 28-Sep-00 @ 06:51 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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ive been having huge fun with vst,rewire & rebirth mods this week... messing with the controls is a bit fiddly especially some of the mods are almost impossible to read... s/w can be real good... as long as you CAN bash something to get the patterns in and add in drums, perc' etc parts then fine... but i think it's real important to be able to stand up and rock around to the track, walk up to the keyboard or pads while you are buzzing on the beat and tap in an overlay pattern/riff to go-with.

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Message 43/48 03-Oct-00 @ 07:21 AM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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the problem I have w/ the soft seq is trying to get it
to sound ruff.I started w/ hardware and like the saying
goes You'll have to pry my MPC out of my cold dead
fingers.I mean come on beats aren't supposed to sound
human It's called ELECTRONIC music for a reason.A word
of caution though the MPC3000 uses 480ppq and it
bites!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Message 44/48 06-Oct-00 @ 04:41 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

casparproject

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those high res stats are all well and good. until you realise that all midi clock messages are only 12ppq.

Peaceout,

Peter

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Message 45/48 06-Oct-00 @ 08:44 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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All I know is I wasted an 8ball kickdown to a studio owner to get frustrated w/ the timing on the 3000 and the first day I had my 2000xl I wrote 40 sequences there is definitely something afoul w/ the 3000 that is not present in the 60,60mkII,and 2000 series.Besides who wants to pay more for a drum machine that you can't visually edit with.My first sampler was a w-30 and the next a FZ-1 then A S950 gone in a month,ASR10 came next(Early OS sucked)then Emax II and Emulator II+HD,then a S3000xl,Then a S5000,and I got a CD3000 for $250 and sold it for $450 And then there's my trusty MPC2000XL w/ all the shitjacks except SMPTE and Flash rom.I have only had good success sequencing w/ w-30,VFXsd,Early Master tracks pro.I've tried Cubase Logic And even had a run w/ cakewalk before I took the PC back.I like to plat live without too much prearrangement and have found the MPC2000xl to be indespensible plus I have a road case for it and a gig bag for my 777 so it's easy for me to get around.My Mac has $3200 worth of video and codec compression software in it and I can take my finished projects to my associate's Sonic Solutions DVD creator and make Real DVDS not Porno quality DVDS like the ones made w/Sonic's DVDit for PC.

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Message 46/48 07-Oct-00 @ 05:05 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

Spot

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Can you make quality porn DVDs though?

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Message 47/48 08-Oct-00 @ 05:48 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

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I could!But I'm not an aspiring porn producer but if the damn things don't get any better I may have too:0

btw,go check my music over on "a working track by Hank D" thread there and post your impressions there.A good example of the sequencing tightness of the MPC2000XL.

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Message 48/48 18-Oct-00 @ 10:19 PM - RE: computer vs. hardware

TiC

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for all in doubt on the timing issue i can confirm.
some time ago i bought the mc-303 to get a portable sequencer to put my ideas into as they came along.But now i have a really hard time working with my pc cos i get totally pissed off by the lack of perfect timing.

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