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Forums - Drums / rhythms / programming
Subject: OK, what about rock n roll
Viewing all 13 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2
Original Message 1/13 09-Dec-00 @ 08:00 AM - OK, what about rock n roll
Hey folks 
I am a guitarist/vocalist and I like to play rock, blues, metal, funk, soul whatever... I used to have a Roland Human Rhythm Composer that i bought in pawn shop for $50. you know the one with huge keypads that are touch sensitive, and feel/groove patches, and swing mode.
I didn't realize how slick that unit was till I went to go replacing it. I figured it would be easy, cause it was so old. I demoed Rebirth, and I nearly vomited on my keyboard - I need something with humanistic feel.
Is there software that can do this? I don't do rap or techno, I want a rock kit. Maybe I'm just too old for drum machines.
Kyle
I am a guitarist/vocalist and I like to play rock, blues, metal, funk, soul whatever... I used to have a Roland Human Rhythm Composer that i bought in pawn shop for $50. you know the one with huge keypads that are touch sensitive, and feel/groove patches, and swing mode.
I didn't realize how slick that unit was till I went to go replacing it. I figured it would be easy, cause it was so old. I demoed Rebirth, and I nearly vomited on my keyboard - I need something with humanistic feel.
Is there software that can do this? I don't do rap or techno, I want a rock kit. Maybe I'm just too old for drum machines.
Kyle
Message 2/13 09-Dec-00 @ 03:59 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
maybe sampled loops... for Acid, there are rock loop disks... cannot guarentee, that you don't vomit, though... i probably would... if you are able to relate to BEck, Acid might do the trick for you
Message 3/13 09-Dec-00 @ 05:19 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
OK,
Major stupid here. Acid is a software drum machine?
Kyle
Major stupid here. Acid is a software drum machine?
Kyle
Message 4/13 09-Dec-00 @ 09:35 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
mate, ANY of the s/w sequencers like Logic, vst or cakewalk will let you create totally realistic drums as long as the sound sources are reasonable.... if you dont beleive me i'll post up some 'jazz' drumming i created with a basic motherboard built-in roland GS soundset.... and it sounds real!... even the bass you can programme slides with the basic 'finger-bass' preset and vibrato to make really realistic bass patterns is a jazzy style even.... i dont think you should have sold the roland if you did, cos with a sequencer you can layer drums on midi notes to create VERY complexed and varied drums. great machines. the toms rock.. very realistic for such a cheap box (at todays prices, they were 500 & 800 quid when released (V R5 & R8 respectively)
oh, and vst & logic include drumbox/sampler s/w to play drum sounds... you just browse & load samples from your pc drive/s
oh, and vst & logic include drumbox/sampler s/w to play drum sounds... you just browse & load samples from your pc drive/s
Message 5/13 09-Dec-00 @ 10:52 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
Very Cool.
Your right , i shouldn't have sold the darn beat box, now that i realize how much the thing was worth. i assumed, so many years later, that the sampled sounds would be passe, yet they were actually pretty. good.
i have reg. version of cake 8 i bought, and a warez version of cubase. i downloaded the demo version of cubase, then the warez. neither have any documentation to speak of so i'll most likely delete them both. i buy software, but i buy it when i know ill make use of it, not beforehand.
i started off with a warez version of cake 7, then bought into it with v8, but never got around to learning it, and i lost the manuals and CD in a move, so im not sure what ill do.
i sorta understand cake, as i have played with a bit.
i think its more my speed than cubase + i only have a socket 7 233mmx with 128 mb ram, and sb16.
i do however have guitar amps, mixing boards + yamaha emp100 and rex50 effects units, so i have lots of toys to use.
what i dont understand, though, is this. i have tons of cool wavs of drum sounds - more than ill ever use - can you write midi drum tracks, then assign wavs to those instruments instead of listening to the dorky sounds your sb16 makes? i do have an awe32 sb as well, but i found it noisier so i replaced it with my sb16.
is there any point in running two sb16's or should i forget all that crap and get something like a layla or at least sblive?
its all very confusing to me compared to the old days when i wrote a track or r5 and taped it with tascam 8.
it would be nice to lay some drums n bass down, and as a guitarist/vocalist i could finish them off with audio layovers. perhaps im dreaming thinking i can do this all on my pc, i dont know. i dont need more than 8 tracks tho.
thanks for any help
kyle
Your right , i shouldn't have sold the darn beat box, now that i realize how much the thing was worth. i assumed, so many years later, that the sampled sounds would be passe, yet they were actually pretty. good.
i have reg. version of cake 8 i bought, and a warez version of cubase. i downloaded the demo version of cubase, then the warez. neither have any documentation to speak of so i'll most likely delete them both. i buy software, but i buy it when i know ill make use of it, not beforehand.
i started off with a warez version of cake 7, then bought into it with v8, but never got around to learning it, and i lost the manuals and CD in a move, so im not sure what ill do.
i sorta understand cake, as i have played with a bit.
i think its more my speed than cubase + i only have a socket 7 233mmx with 128 mb ram, and sb16.
i do however have guitar amps, mixing boards + yamaha emp100 and rex50 effects units, so i have lots of toys to use.
what i dont understand, though, is this. i have tons of cool wavs of drum sounds - more than ill ever use - can you write midi drum tracks, then assign wavs to those instruments instead of listening to the dorky sounds your sb16 makes? i do have an awe32 sb as well, but i found it noisier so i replaced it with my sb16.
is there any point in running two sb16's or should i forget all that crap and get something like a layla or at least sblive?
its all very confusing to me compared to the old days when i wrote a track or r5 and taped it with tascam 8.
it would be nice to lay some drums n bass down, and as a guitarist/vocalist i could finish them off with audio layovers. perhaps im dreaming thinking i can do this all on my pc, i dont know. i dont need more than 8 tracks tho.
thanks for any help
kyle
Message 6/13 10-Dec-00 @ 07:59 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
i'd say the LM drumboxes in VST would be pefect for you, as, with a decent sample collection of drum sounds, you can make any kits you like & add vst compressors, delays, reverbs etc etc just like on a real mixer it's all laid out the same.... the triggering of the drum samples (stored in system ram) is spot on too, absolutely no delay or latency - spot on!... if you are used to studio protocol vst lays it out the same so you find functions for mixing etc pretty easy.. all you need is a decent audio device for recording your audio -
but i run an mmx too and whilst it's enuff to run some drums in LM s/w and add a few tracks of audio, it isnt enuff power to produce a reasonably full track...
right now i've built a Duron box from bits last night which i'm going to try with the Hoontech DSP1624 tonight - who knows if it'll work, Hoontech do NOT recommend VIA chipsets or anything other than BX, BUT, this board has the latest KT set and includes some ide special 'Fix' on a cdrom to combat known ide & device problems... so who knows!?...
in some ways, telling owners or potential owners to stick with an older slower (on paper) chipset/bus/ram is limiting when you look at the pc bits available, so as an experiment i decided to build a duron to get the 100% real deal if or not it'll work with a decent audio device - i figured it would be something DT readers (including me) really want to know.. can a reliable duron work properly with the via sets, and if so, with WHAT audio i/o hardware device
putting the pc upgrade together was absolute childs play, even a newbie with instructions could do it so easily with todays automated boards eveything is automated so you just switch on and as long as youve wired the hardware right it boots, sets up the devices and when ready primes you to put the windows CD in the dribve to install or upgrade a previous windows install... then the rest is automated again... simple !!... long gone is the days of having to truy to install cdrom drivers etc beofre you can setup windows... it's moron prooof nowadays !!... - and this Duron (700), processes absolutely SHITLOADS of fx & vst drums & other synths & instruments compared to the old MMx !! - i kid you not, the difference is absolutely staggering !! ... shitloads of eq, fx & s/w synths & drums for the money...
but... you being an instrumentalist need to record your playing alongside the midi/VST-instruments backing... so does the person i'm building this pc for !! (my kid)... so now i am going on a quest for decent reliable audio-hardware, cos the thing is the intended owner of this pc has to be able to just boot-up and record & work... there can't be any messing about....
total upgrade parts cost £385 quid... £114 of that was for a new big fast harddrive cos the owner only had an really old 3 gb eide drive that was old tired and nearly full... so £114 went to a fast 20gb 7200rpm 8ms seektime ATA 100 drive - if you got a decent drive already you can discount this price in which case the upgrade cost only £260 quid ruffly including a lovely new posh case with a powerful 300 watt power supply & 128mb of fast 133 sdram - see PC-Chat for the 'project-duron' thread - i think i'm going to try a\ midiman device for it mebbe, mebbe a sblive too... lets see... something has to work reliably!! - but it has to also be cheap & affordable cos the spoilt little git's already had enuff cash spent on him :-) ... (this on TOP of the bloody nike air-max trainers he insists on me buying!!)...
but i run an mmx too and whilst it's enuff to run some drums in LM s/w and add a few tracks of audio, it isnt enuff power to produce a reasonably full track...
right now i've built a Duron box from bits last night which i'm going to try with the Hoontech DSP1624 tonight - who knows if it'll work, Hoontech do NOT recommend VIA chipsets or anything other than BX, BUT, this board has the latest KT set and includes some ide special 'Fix' on a cdrom to combat known ide & device problems... so who knows!?...
in some ways, telling owners or potential owners to stick with an older slower (on paper) chipset/bus/ram is limiting when you look at the pc bits available, so as an experiment i decided to build a duron to get the 100% real deal if or not it'll work with a decent audio device - i figured it would be something DT readers (including me) really want to know.. can a reliable duron work properly with the via sets, and if so, with WHAT audio i/o hardware device
putting the pc upgrade together was absolute childs play, even a newbie with instructions could do it so easily with todays automated boards eveything is automated so you just switch on and as long as youve wired the hardware right it boots, sets up the devices and when ready primes you to put the windows CD in the dribve to install or upgrade a previous windows install... then the rest is automated again... simple !!... long gone is the days of having to truy to install cdrom drivers etc beofre you can setup windows... it's moron prooof nowadays !!... - and this Duron (700), processes absolutely SHITLOADS of fx & vst drums & other synths & instruments compared to the old MMx !! - i kid you not, the difference is absolutely staggering !! ... shitloads of eq, fx & s/w synths & drums for the money...
but... you being an instrumentalist need to record your playing alongside the midi/VST-instruments backing... so does the person i'm building this pc for !! (my kid)... so now i am going on a quest for decent reliable audio-hardware, cos the thing is the intended owner of this pc has to be able to just boot-up and record & work... there can't be any messing about....
total upgrade parts cost £385 quid... £114 of that was for a new big fast harddrive cos the owner only had an really old 3 gb eide drive that was old tired and nearly full... so £114 went to a fast 20gb 7200rpm 8ms seektime ATA 100 drive - if you got a decent drive already you can discount this price in which case the upgrade cost only £260 quid ruffly including a lovely new posh case with a powerful 300 watt power supply & 128mb of fast 133 sdram - see PC-Chat for the 'project-duron' thread - i think i'm going to try a\ midiman device for it mebbe, mebbe a sblive too... lets see... something has to work reliably!! - but it has to also be cheap & affordable cos the spoilt little git's already had enuff cash spent on him :-) ... (this on TOP of the bloody nike air-max trainers he insists on me buying!!)...
Message 7/13 10-Dec-00 @ 10:42 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
WOW!
Thats right on. The above link is my first ever electronic groove. The hats sound a bit gay; but
they match my shuffle upstrokes on the rhythm guitar.
I built the groove in fruityloops using some drum samples i found somewhere on a web page.
I really like the sounds of what VST offers.
Something that I wonder is this. Do you write the
grooves in VST or elsewhere? I like writing grooves
in the Fruityloops program, its really quick, just like a drum machine. Thats what kills me about Cake and VST, theyre not user friendly for groove writing.
Can a guy write grooves elsewhere, save the midi files, and import both the midi file, and the samples and make it all happen in VST or Cake? I wonder, though, cause they're so many elements with Fruity; i.e. pannning, volume changes, note "pushes", swing factor etc.. i guess youd lose all that due to proprietory method.
One other thing, I am correct in thinking:
1) If you have a Duron of fast fast Pentium with oodles of ram, thats what you need to mix down multritrack or jame along to a "session"
2) The sound card determines the quality or your digital recording, but has little to do with your mixing down.
3) the speed of your hard drive is a factor. Are the new fast IDE's good enough? Or is fast wide scsi necessary for 24 track say.
thanks;
maybe ill try laying the guitar and vocals over this groove imported as a wv into vst or CAKE, but id rather keep it editable.
Kyle
Thats right on. The above link is my first ever electronic groove. The hats sound a bit gay; but
they match my shuffle upstrokes on the rhythm guitar.
I built the groove in fruityloops using some drum samples i found somewhere on a web page.
I really like the sounds of what VST offers.
Something that I wonder is this. Do you write the
grooves in VST or elsewhere? I like writing grooves
in the Fruityloops program, its really quick, just like a drum machine. Thats what kills me about Cake and VST, theyre not user friendly for groove writing.
Can a guy write grooves elsewhere, save the midi files, and import both the midi file, and the samples and make it all happen in VST or Cake? I wonder, though, cause they're so many elements with Fruity; i.e. pannning, volume changes, note "pushes", swing factor etc.. i guess youd lose all that due to proprietory method.
One other thing, I am correct in thinking:
1) If you have a Duron of fast fast Pentium with oodles of ram, thats what you need to mix down multritrack or jame along to a "session"
2) The sound card determines the quality or your digital recording, but has little to do with your mixing down.
3) the speed of your hard drive is a factor. Are the new fast IDE's good enough? Or is fast wide scsi necessary for 24 track say.
thanks;
maybe ill try laying the guitar and vocals over this groove imported as a wv into vst or CAKE, but id rather keep it editable.
Kyle
Message 8/13 10-Dec-00 @ 10:44 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
I meant to say "AM I correct in thinking:"
Message 9/13 13-Dec-00 @ 08:16 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
well Kyle, i just spent two nights recording my Landola acoustic and vocals over LM9 drums with a Calrec condenser, and the results were great, even tho the hoontech isnt really working as efficiently as it should ... anyways... the LM9 is crystal clear, just like listening to real recorded drums so the quality of your samples is ALL that matters... with the 700 duron & 120mb ram i can get endless fx & drastic eq's on all parts no probs,,,, i've spent years recording guitar songs with midi backing on 8 & 16 tracks systems sync'd to midi and the results were excellent on this system in comparison, way better results bordering on fully pro sound !...
next quest is to find a cheap audio card that'll give a lower latency & more solid results... but, i've ran 36 tracks easy, and last night i had like 8 tracks going with guitars & vox... the audio gates by the way are superb, as good as drawmers no probs... all in all superb results, glossy, totally his free, and the VSTi drum timing is totally spot on and flawless, better even than triggered external midi, i think i'll sell all my drum machines it is so good, and yes you can tap the drum parts in from your keyboard just like with a drumbox... superb, i had 4, yes 4 drumboxes going in one track without any probs... the cpu has stacks of power...
all in all if i can get a reliable audio card this duron can easily be called an all-in-one 24 tracks recorder with drums, fx & synths... simple !!.. just add good cans/speakers/amp & a decent mic pre-amp and you are in heaven if you are a composer recording demo's idea's and even masters IF you take the same care you should when working with tape 9you know all the rules no doubt)... compressors on ALL tracks no problems by the way...
I grew up on Otari 8 mx 1" 8 tracks, fostex 8 & 16 tracks, brennel 1", tascam 8's & 16's, saturns etc etc... all with outboard mixer etc.. and the results from VST totally & utterly piss all over the old days... (even with 'dobly' !! heh heh)
my P3 should be back this week fixed, then i can rewire the DSL in and then i'm going to re-upload all the old drum samples from the old dancetech... about 20mb of drum hits & loops etc, including a set of an old vinatge 8" Rodgers brass piccolo & a Tama 8" wood snare i sampled in my studio...
also a tip.. SC-DRUMS.. (sc-developments).. very VST s/w good drumbox with seperate outs on the mixer, one click to load drum samples per pad. easy setup, check it out...
next quest is to find a cheap audio card that'll give a lower latency & more solid results... but, i've ran 36 tracks easy, and last night i had like 8 tracks going with guitars & vox... the audio gates by the way are superb, as good as drawmers no probs... all in all superb results, glossy, totally his free, and the VSTi drum timing is totally spot on and flawless, better even than triggered external midi, i think i'll sell all my drum machines it is so good, and yes you can tap the drum parts in from your keyboard just like with a drumbox... superb, i had 4, yes 4 drumboxes going in one track without any probs... the cpu has stacks of power...
all in all if i can get a reliable audio card this duron can easily be called an all-in-one 24 tracks recorder with drums, fx & synths... simple !!.. just add good cans/speakers/amp & a decent mic pre-amp and you are in heaven if you are a composer recording demo's idea's and even masters IF you take the same care you should when working with tape 9you know all the rules no doubt)... compressors on ALL tracks no problems by the way...
I grew up on Otari 8 mx 1" 8 tracks, fostex 8 & 16 tracks, brennel 1", tascam 8's & 16's, saturns etc etc... all with outboard mixer etc.. and the results from VST totally & utterly piss all over the old days... (even with 'dobly' !! heh heh)
my P3 should be back this week fixed, then i can rewire the DSL in and then i'm going to re-upload all the old drum samples from the old dancetech... about 20mb of drum hits & loops etc, including a set of an old vinatge 8" Rodgers brass piccolo & a Tama 8" wood snare i sampled in my studio...
also a tip.. SC-DRUMS.. (sc-developments).. very VST s/w good drumbox with seperate outs on the mixer, one click to load drum samples per pad. easy setup, check it out...
Message 10/13 13-Dec-00 @ 08:33 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
Very Cool!
I am reading all that you say and researching every bit. I just got an add in the paper from our local AXE music store, outlining the costs of layla, darla, mona, cubase etc.
So tell me, is the drum patch you have for cubase a plugin or integral? I've seen a screen shot, it comes up like a software drum machine right?
I just found a slew of new sounds at cdrom.com to play with. Many are from the Korg X5. I love them. Excellent for rock.
This hoontech.. it's the sound card right? Will you move to a system that involves d/a a/d conversion *outside* your box? I've heard this is better; i.e. the layla. Conversely, I guess Echo's mona is inside, correct?
Getting more informed,
Kyle
I am reading all that you say and researching every bit. I just got an add in the paper from our local AXE music store, outlining the costs of layla, darla, mona, cubase etc.
So tell me, is the drum patch you have for cubase a plugin or integral? I've seen a screen shot, it comes up like a software drum machine right?
I just found a slew of new sounds at cdrom.com to play with. Many are from the Korg X5. I love them. Excellent for rock.
This hoontech.. it's the sound card right? Will you move to a system that involves d/a a/d conversion *outside* your box? I've heard this is better; i.e. the layla. Conversely, I guess Echo's mona is inside, correct?
Getting more informed,
Kyle
Message 11/13 15-Dec-00 @ 04:16 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
Hi folks!
Thought I'd throw in my two cents.
My experience is this: The effectiveness of the drum module you require is dependent upon the type of music you want to create. If you do dance, then all you need is a VSTi that gives you the same sound over and over when you trigger it. The quality of that sound is as good as the sample you give it. BUT. If you desire to have a *realistic* drum sound, one that sounds like an actual human being is playing it, then you need velocity layers. BTW, if this is all old hat to you, my apologies; I got the impression that y'all are new to this gig.
Anyhow, if this latter scenario is the case, if you do rock or funk or anything that requires a live drummer, then IMHO you need sample software that has velocity layers. This means that any time you strike, say, the snare, the sample you get back is dependent upon the velocity, which is exactly what you want, since no drum sounds exactly the same every time you hit it. Of course, you'll need a few samples for each instrument, but if you're painstaking about this part of the process, you'll wind up with a kit that'll knock your socks off compared to dance-based drum machines.
The LM4 I don't care for. Yeah, the samples can be nice, but so what? You can load nice samples into anything, so that's not a valid argument for me. IMHO, he LM4 was a rush job and not up to Steinberg's standard. The truly lame method of sample loading is just one example of what's wrong with this VSTi, but it's indicative to me of the fact that it was not designed with the user in mind. Ironic that Steinberg developed VSTi technology, huh?
Having used various samplers over the years, and VSTi since they were developed -- what, a year ago? -- my favorite at the moment is the AO DK1, from AO Digital I think they're called. Four velocity layers for each instrument, ANY bit depth and sample rate is accepted, loading samples is a snap, there's on-board compression in case you need to give a hit some punch, there's on-board cutoff to keep a reign on the high end of individual instruments, and there's a great ambient kit already programmed and available for download. The price? It's 50 bucks, HALF what the LM4 retails for -- and it has ten times the functionality and intuitiveness. Yuk; I sound like a salesman -- I'm not. There are other VSTi that are velocity layered and intuitive; DK1's just my choice at the moment. Use what works.
Anyway, if you folks are doing killer drum tracks with the LM9, you'll do DEVASTATING ones with a velocity-layered, friendlier VSTi.
Sorry to go on and on...good luck!
Thought I'd throw in my two cents.
My experience is this: The effectiveness of the drum module you require is dependent upon the type of music you want to create. If you do dance, then all you need is a VSTi that gives you the same sound over and over when you trigger it. The quality of that sound is as good as the sample you give it. BUT. If you desire to have a *realistic* drum sound, one that sounds like an actual human being is playing it, then you need velocity layers. BTW, if this is all old hat to you, my apologies; I got the impression that y'all are new to this gig.
Anyhow, if this latter scenario is the case, if you do rock or funk or anything that requires a live drummer, then IMHO you need sample software that has velocity layers. This means that any time you strike, say, the snare, the sample you get back is dependent upon the velocity, which is exactly what you want, since no drum sounds exactly the same every time you hit it. Of course, you'll need a few samples for each instrument, but if you're painstaking about this part of the process, you'll wind up with a kit that'll knock your socks off compared to dance-based drum machines.
The LM4 I don't care for. Yeah, the samples can be nice, but so what? You can load nice samples into anything, so that's not a valid argument for me. IMHO, he LM4 was a rush job and not up to Steinberg's standard. The truly lame method of sample loading is just one example of what's wrong with this VSTi, but it's indicative to me of the fact that it was not designed with the user in mind. Ironic that Steinberg developed VSTi technology, huh?
Having used various samplers over the years, and VSTi since they were developed -- what, a year ago? -- my favorite at the moment is the AO DK1, from AO Digital I think they're called. Four velocity layers for each instrument, ANY bit depth and sample rate is accepted, loading samples is a snap, there's on-board compression in case you need to give a hit some punch, there's on-board cutoff to keep a reign on the high end of individual instruments, and there's a great ambient kit already programmed and available for download. The price? It's 50 bucks, HALF what the LM4 retails for -- and it has ten times the functionality and intuitiveness. Yuk; I sound like a salesman -- I'm not. There are other VSTi that are velocity layered and intuitive; DK1's just my choice at the moment. Use what works.
Anyway, if you folks are doing killer drum tracks with the LM9, you'll do DEVASTATING ones with a velocity-layered, friendlier VSTi.
Sorry to go on and on...good luck!
Message 12/13 15-Dec-00 @ 06:57 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
AO? Where does one look them up? Couldn't find them on altavista.com hmmm... I can't understand why I can sequence awesome drum samples, modify their wave patterns, volumes, pitch, decay; everything in "fruityloops" thus creating a good track, yet in cubase Im stuck with midi and my shit sounds i get from my sb16. Obviously I need more hardware, but still, can't a person trigger a software synth, from cubase or cakewalk, and thus use a midi track to fire off some decent samples instead of the crap i got on my card?
thanks
thanks
Message 13/13 15-Dec-00 @ 10:33 PM - RE: OK, what about rock n roll
always use google.com, everything else is a waste
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