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Forums - Drums / rhythms / programming
Subject: Tech-ed up drum beats?
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Original Message 1/25 12-Aug-01 @ 08:01 PM - Tech-ed up drum beats?
Mage
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OK, I knew it already and then Jasper spelled it out for me after listening to the track I mentioned in the music tracks forum, but any suggestions ideas on some good techy drum patterns. I'm a horrible amateur (sp?) at this, so any advice would be appreciated. I'm wanting to make some hard tech-ed out beats to lay down under some grooves that lie on the border of techno and trance (check out my track "Electric Purple" in the mp3z on http://www.sectionz.net)
Thanks!!!
Mage
Message 2/25 13-Aug-01 @ 12:28 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
First thing you should do is get hold of some drum sounds that are cut out of loops, check the link, a lot of those sounds are in the track I uploaded.
The main thing is they are gritty and will sit nice in a track with the minimum of tweaking.
Now you need a pattern, make a simple pattern of random beats repeated over half a bar (easier to create a groove with a short loop), it may sound shit but keep shifting notes about keeping the little bits that sound good until it starts to take shape.
Just mess with some sounds and see what you can come up with, things to try are reversing the odd note maybe 1/16th before the kick and playing with the attack of some of the beats. Use fx and stuff to the warp the outcome.
A technique I use is using two compressor plugins in cubase so that the kick drops the volume of the rythm loop when the kick plays, it's called ducking and I picked it up from kilo here about 3 years ago (only just got any good at using it though).
Message 3/25 13-Aug-01 @ 06:34 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Mage
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Can you go into more detail on the compressor trick you described above? In fact, can you explain the use of compressors on beats for me, because I've read a few things about it, but everytime I've tried it I've totally killed the drum sound...
Message 4/25 13-Aug-01 @ 10:25 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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Are you using cubase or a similar sequencer?
If so then you need to get a compressor like the db-audio compressor or the mda one. Both of these allow you to send and receive triggers.
You can read about how compression and gating works in the articles section under fx-articles.
I'll give you a working example though.
You need the kick to go through a separate channel of it's own and the drum sounds to go through a channel of their own.
Load a compressor as an insert effect into the kick channel and set it like this.
threshold=0db
limit/ratio=infinity (no compression)
output=0db
send/trigger=send A (or similar)
this isn't doing anything to the sound of the kick all it is doing is triggering the compressor on the drums channel.
on the drums channel load another compressor as an insert effect.
threshold=-10db
ratio=1/8
output=whatever to gain enough withoug clipping
attack=0ms
release=20 to 50ms
receive=A (has to match the kick send)
now on the drums channel the compressor will only work when the kick plays, without the kick the sound passes through unprocessed.
On my track (and most techno tracks) you can hear his when the kick drops out the sound boosts in volume. Changing the settings of the compressor on the drums channel will change the feel of the pumping effect, a lower threshold (2db say) and a lower ratio (1/1.2 say) will give a less prominent pump. Also the volume and shape of the kick envelope will affect the compression time.
Hope this helps.
Message 5/25 13-Aug-01 @ 01:11 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
ah...jasper, just a small remark:
you must have meant zero ratio on the kick drum, not infinity, as that would be hard limiting?
Message 6/25 14-Aug-01 @ 12:39 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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ah, erm.. probably..
it shouldn't be limiting at all with a threshold of 0db and a volume of less than 0db
but point taken
Message 7/25 14-Aug-01 @ 05:32 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Mage
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Hmm... Actually, I've been using Fruity Loops as like I said, I'm a beginner producer (although not musician) and it's been great for me to work with while I get down all of the audio concepts. Anyways, I'm not to sure about how I'd do this in Fruity, you can assign channels to particular fx channels and there are 2 send channels that each fx channel can be linked to in varying amounts... Not sure how to set this up like the above example, though... Maybe it's time for me to climb the Cubase and/or Reason learning curve? I've got both, but haven't wanted to take the time to learn them when I've got Fruity going pretty well... Anywayz, I'm rambling...
Message 8/25 14-Aug-01 @ 08:09 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
oh yes guys!! - the answer to all our dreams... I just added ti to the SAMPLES/FILES Library section of the site.
"Hybridalien midiGate is a FREEWARE plugin for Cubase VST. It uses MIDI note on/off events to open and close a noise gate, recreating the ducking/gating effects so popular in dance music.
Does away with the hassle of using an external noise gate with a separate audio trigger source."
You just insert it over a mono or stereo audio or VSTi channel such as a nice synth pad etc... then it appears like a VSTi in your arrangepage sequencer Track headers as a destination for ANY midi track!! - sequence your required trigger pattern and adjust the gate! - or copy drum parts over to new track to create drum_pattern part based gate triggering - drooooool!!!...
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 9/25 14-Aug-01 @ 12:36 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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oh yeah!, great stuff thanks
Message 10/25 15-Aug-01 @ 06:32 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
hey that's a pretty cool trick....
is that kind of sidechain stuff done a lot? I mean, is it kind of a standard practice?
Message 11/25 15-Aug-01 @ 09:49 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
I mean - specifically - ducking the rest of the drums according to the kick....
Message 12/25 15-Aug-01 @ 10:35 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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Hell of a lot in techno. Really helps to make a track groove.
Message 13/25 16-Aug-01 @ 02:56 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
well really in the old days, gates sidechains & triggers were a large foundation of trance & techno music's sound.
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 14/25 17-Aug-01 @ 06:20 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Ok, just a quick question about this ducking thing. I have dbx 266xl and it has receive side channel 1/4 inch input in the back. I have the compressor patched into the main insert across the whole mix. I ran one of the direct outs of the kick into the receive sidechain of the dbx. I can only assume that this is set up correctly, does this sound correct? Reason i'm confused is cause i have the Kick also being routed through the same compressor through the main mix. Is that what i want??? I'm confused...
Message 15/25 17-Aug-01 @ 10:35 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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Not really, that sounds like the kick would also be ducked.
You only want to duck certain sounds really, you can do the whole mix though apart from the kick if you want, but it really works as a way of fixing problems with bass sounds clashing. Say you have a heavy bassline going and you can't get a good balance with the kick, reducing the bass just isn't what you want, so a way round it is to use the kick to drop the volume of the bass. This way both sounds can have plenty of bass and the ear doesn't really notice the fact that the bassline is dropping out because at that moment the kick is playing so it concentrates on that.
Anyway, to setup the effect to try it out you need the kick to go out on it's own and the rythm/bass (and whatever else you want to affect) to go through the compressor.
Have you tried the plugin btw? it works quite well for creating the effect. (4 1/4length notes playing on the kick and adjust the attack to get the pump effect)
Message 16/25 19-Aug-01 @ 12:16 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Mage
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Ok, here's what I've done to try to get this ducking effect with Reason:
Method 1: I set up a second mixer for and ran each drum channel into its own mixer channel, then I set up a compressor on send two and turned that up for all the channels but the kick channel and then set up a compressor on send one, turned up the send on the kick channel and routed the out on that compressor to the chain input on send 2 rather than the return for send 1. It seems like this should work, but this muffles the entire sound even if I keep a threshold of 0 and and no ratio set on both compressors...
Method 2: With one mixer and the entire redrum on one mixer channel, put a compressor on send 1 and turn up that send on the drum channel, then set up a compressor as an insert effect on the kick and run its out to the send 1 chain input, this works a lot better and sounds cool, but it seems like the kick should also be being compressed...
Question: is there another way I can do this with Reason that I'm not seeing? The effects don't have their own chain inputs so I have to do it at the mixer... I suppose I could create another Redrum for just the kick and other sounds I don't want ducked, but I'd hate creating another Redrum for one sound...
Message 17/25 20-Aug-01 @ 02:54 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
but remember each drum channel has a gate trigger output send on the back of redrum & more
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 18/25 20-Aug-01 @ 11:50 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Mage
Posts: 50
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File?: No file
Yes, but the compressors don't have any kind of cv inputs.
Message 19/25 21-Aug-01 @ 12:00 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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"this works a lot better and sounds cool, but it seems like the kick should also be being compressed"
ah, if it sounds cool your nearly there. Now do you mean you think the kick should be compressed. Or that the kick is being compressed and you don't want it to be?
I haven't used reason unfortunately, so I can't really help with the technicalities of that software.
Can't you use VST plugins? You may find it easier to use the free gate plugin k posted.
Message 20/25 22-Aug-01 @ 01:45 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
mage2k
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Well, the kick is being compressed. However, I'm pretty sure I've got the method I mentions where I use a separate mixer for the Redrum down, thereby giving each drum track it's own channel so I can send the kick to the chain input on the send/return 2 effects channel which I turn up on the other drums' channels. And, unfortunately, you can't use VST plugins directly with Reason, you can Rewire Reason to be used with Cubase but I want to get Reason completely down before I start into Cubase as there's a lot to both and I'd get lost trying to use both at the same time...
Message 21/25 22-Aug-01 @ 12:36 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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Think I spotted your problem, you say your sending a signal from the kick channel and using this on a send/return for the compressor on the other channel?
Compressors should allways be an insert effect, you don't want to send a signal to it then return that signal and mix it in with the channel again because your doubling up, it'll make it sound muddy or just not right (technical term) at best.
You can setup insert effects with cubase no problem, not sure about reason.
Message 22/25 22-Aug-01 @ 07:07 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Mage
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Hmmm... Ok, I see what you're saying, you can set up insert effects in Reason easily enough, but the compressor in Reason doesn't have any side chain of CV inputs. Oh well, I guess once I've got Reason down, I'll learn Cubase...
Message 23/25 24-Aug-01 @ 11:04 AM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
Jasper
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Well half the battle is just the knowledge of how an effect works, you've probably got more important stuff to get to grips with first I reckon.
Message 24/25 25-Aug-01 @ 12:09 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
shpongledboy
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Hey Jasper... are the db-audio compressor and the mda freeware? and where can I find these? Or is there more compressors that can send and recieve triggers?
Thanks.
Message 25/25 26-Aug-01 @ 07:19 PM - RE: Tech-ed up drum beats?
there's some free db stuff here if you use the site sections menu, go to samples/files and search for VST. that particular compressor/gate/expander, I do believe, is one you gotta buy though. if I remember right, it's US$100 for the whole suite (go ahead, they're all good).
Yes, use compressors as inserts, not effects. There's an exception to this, but I'm not saying because it'll only confuse things.
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