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Subject: Are new synths boring !!

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Original Message 1/41 18-Dec-01 @ 02:32 AM - Are new synths boring !!

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this and other synth forums are quite quiet. personaly nothing much has happened to excite me for a while hardware wise since the indie houses established themselves over the mid 90's- do you think synths now are getting boring?

is it lack of imagination? - or have the manufacturers really just exhausted practical new forms of combinations or new angles for established synthesis?

if there is nothing left to be 'new' in the way VA or FM or Romplers were, then whats left for manufacturers such as korg, roland, e-mu, ensonique, yamaha etc...

some cool little bargain boxes have come like the ER & ES from korg... any other nominations for cool reent/new stuff?

or.. si this a symptom of updatable OS's?.. another angle.

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I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 2/41 18-Dec-01 @ 04:45 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

influx

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personally the more I look at softsynths (many of which are sub $100) the more these damn boxes look overpriced

dont tell anyone I said that though

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Message 3/41 18-Dec-01 @ 11:32 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

xoxos

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happily milking the market i'm sure. doubt the big boys are going to invest all their precious money in developing anyhting edgy on the digital front when some little boy could come along and develop something similar or superior w/o the huge r+d development fee.

analog just isn't faddish neough right now for the big companies to do the right thing. yo quiero quality analog device.

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Message 4/41 18-Dec-01 @ 08:44 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

damballah

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well, alesis gave it a shot and R&D'd themselves into chapter 11. not just that andromeda thing, but it couldn't have helped. hasn't the VA-music fad passed a bit, as well?

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Message 5/41 19-Dec-01 @ 04:02 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nothingnewhere

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new digital synths are boring for sure and va synths arent doing anything new anymore really.

it seems like (real) analog devices (not just synths) are coming back into the spotlight.

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Message 6/41 20-Dec-01 @ 07:22 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

99devils

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What about the Nord Lead III, which is blending FM and VA technologies? Why haven't we seen more analog-style machines that work on samples? Not ROMplers, but something that'd allow you to do things like FM one sample with another? Or a sampler that could interpolate between a set of samples, so your sound could morph between them?

There's still lots of good ideas out there

-Craig

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Message 7/41 02-Jan-02 @ 08:44 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nomad

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interpolating between a set of samples so that your sound can morph? that's a microwave XT

it also sounds a bit like a wavestation maybe, with vectoring between samples? i would imagine many samplers can do something similar with layers. transwaves (like on the very cheap these days ensoniq asr-x) can do similar things too as the XT.

FMing samples with each other has been around since the TG77 afaik, though i've never tried it... at least i know it lets you use its internal samples as operators withing an FM construct....

really there isn't very much that hasn't been done, especially if you include reaktor in that equation... for $300 there isn't a whole lot it can't do (though i still think that digital FM and feedback etc. still don't sound like an analog equivalent).

we haven't even exhausted the ones we have... FM is a very interesting model (i will have an fs1r one day), but too often people buy tx81zs just to use the lately bass preset. i turn on my xt, and most of the factory patches are basses, strings, analog-style leads....??? why? i have an analog machine. this machine is quite unique in architecture and all we want to do is emulate analog sounds? and additive - why would you buy a k5000s to make a 303 sound??

now, i can understand starting with something you know in order to use the unique capabilities of the instrument to 'bend' it away from what you know, in ways the emulated instrument can't (like doing additive piano emulations, then cross-pollinating with a cymbal emulation or something). but i just don't hear it often. then again i'm just as lazy so who am i to talk

(then again, i haven't bought anything new since 1993...)

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Message 8/41 04-Jan-02 @ 03:56 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

FAB

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Well, give me a few years, but I'm an electrical engineer, hitting grad school in a year, specializing in DSP, and I got an idea that no-one's done yet...

think I'm gonna tell you?

FAB

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Message 9/41 04-Jan-02 @ 10:41 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

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nope...

- just make sure it has an expresso maker attatchment tho ! - that's what i want

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Message 10/41 05-Jan-02 @ 02:58 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

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the wavestation has like a sort of multi-step envelope which clocks to midi too, each step can be fixed for length and what raw root sample wave is in it... plus other stuff to do with levels etc per step

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Message 11/41 05-Jan-02 @ 04:59 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

influx

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yeah..that wavesequencing shit is pretty cool on the WS

but its not "samples" tech...you cant load your own sounds in there

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Message 12/41 05-Jan-02 @ 06:23 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nothingnewhere

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somebody found a way to burn pcmcia cards with samples that could be loaded by wavestation SR (maybe EX's) so er... someone buy me a wavestation and ill tell you all about it :-)

i think that the SY-99's (and if there was a TG99, im not sure) let you load samples that you can fm with other samples. id like to get one, but every time ive seen one theyre like 1200$ or some other crazy shit.

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Message 13/41 05-Jan-02 @ 06:28 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nothingnewhere

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what i want is a waldorf sampler, with wavetables and some fm oprions and stuff. mmm. they oughta do it, though i dont think i could aford it if they did.

really i'm fine with synth techology today, its just the prices of the things i dont like.

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Message 14/41 05-Jan-02 @ 05:20 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nomad

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can reaktor do that sort of stuff? fm'ing samples i mean. the dss-1 will allow you to use sync on two samples, though i haven't really found it that useful (partially because the autobend [pitch envelope] only goes up and down about an octave)...

btw, the 'wave sequencing' in the wavestation is (afaik) pretty much the same as the wavetable synthesis in the microwaves, transwaves in ensoniq's ASRs, and the wavetable
stuff in the prophet vs, and all three of those (afaik) allow you to download your own wavetables to it...

that wavestation thing is called 'frontal lobe', if i'm not mistaken...

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Message 15/41 05-Jan-02 @ 05:27 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

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yeah well the wavestation team with korg all came from sequential when they went down the shitter. So it is really the 'further development' of the prophet.

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Message 16/41 08-Jan-02 @ 04:55 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

Yonce N Mild

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DARKSTAR!!
I guess its not especially inovative but it is cheap!!! and sounds awesome by the way. Darkstar+Filter factory+MoFx WOW for 400 bucks worth of gear it is pretty amazing when I get my pc back together I'll record some demos for ya'll to enjoy

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Message 17/41 08-Jan-02 @ 06:36 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

milan

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maybe (just maybe) this thread should be called "are new synth users boring?".

i mean, we do have some amazing posibilities with wavetable and additive and fm and formant synthesis, but do you hear many unique and inspiring sounds these days? like nomad pointed out, they mostly seem to get used for emulation of stuff that has been done already.
maybe i�m just listening to wrong music, so please tell me if i�m wrong.

i�m starting to get into wavetable stuff on my uQ and am finding new ways to change sounds over time, like i couldnt do before with analog synths. maybe if we try to create new sounds it will lead us into creating new forms of music which will make use of them? same as with senoniq�s chord portamento perhaps, or xoxos�s new-blend style, i also would like to hear some new styles coming out, not just another sub-sub-sub-genra or something. maybe more creative use of sound sources can lead to that.

its just an idea i had. maybe its worth considering...

thanx to all the DT peeps for inspiration, M.

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Message 18/41 08-Jan-02 @ 07:05 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nothingnewhere

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im already there milan. or atleast id like to think so. but sometimes old sounds are fun.

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Message 19/41 08-Jan-02 @ 09:52 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

99devils

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Some of those styles are impossible to program without a degree in acoustical physics!! I had a K5000 for a year and couldn't get shit out of it. And I have a comp. science degree!

How's about they make that shit easy to use?

-Craig

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Message 20/41 08-Jan-02 @ 11:14 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nothingnewhere

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the easier something gets to use, the less complex it will sound. a 303 is damn easy to program, but it always sounds the same you know?

i want to get either a K5m (more likely cause im broke) or K5000 and play with it for a while. looks like fun.

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Message 21/41 09-Jan-02 @ 04:18 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

99devils

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In the case of the k5000, tools that allow you to resynthesize from wav files, some formant filter templates, some additive templates would have been nice.. Think about if that synth had the ability to do formant morphs between two resynth'ed wavs! If you ignore the built in sampling then you get to build sound from partials. Maybe that makes some kind of intuitive sense to you but...

Why do you think analog and VA are still around, yet FM languishes? And a lot of the FM stuff you do hear is just presets, or slightly tweaked presets?

-Craig

-Craig

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Message 22/41 09-Jan-02 @ 06:40 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nomad

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i don't disagree with you, one of the main reasons for analog's success is that there are large scale changes you can make with predictable results (filter cutoff, volume, pitch, waveform). but even there some 'knowledge' is needed - do you know how to create a string from scratch? if you didn't know how, and were presented an analog or virtual analog that was completely 'blank', could you do it? or brass? or snares? in any case, with an analog you CAN decide what you want and target it, but it also works well to just tweak things and see where you end up.

other types aren't like that... FM, one knob can make large changes, but these aren't necessarily logical for most people. the K5000s had most of the same sort of 'large changes' as analog, so didn't offer much new.

however... if you use sound diver doesn't it have all the stuff you want craig? i am hoping anyway that when i do get a k5000, that this is one of those cases where a CS degree will come in useful

sound diver does do some sort of resynthesis, though it's not supposed to work THAT well, it should break something down into a representative 'frequency spectrum' which may be good enough to do the sort of morphing you mention.

but in general... other types do require you to have an idea of 'where you are going'.

one 'end run' around this is the 'spectral' waves present on both the virus and the nords (at least the modular). even better is to use the wavetables as sort of an 'additive primitive', since you can create any sort of spectral progression to the 61 waves in the wavetable; perhaps the limited resynthesis of sound diver will be useful here (if i can ever get it to work with my midi card i'll try it

. once you have a few of these done, you can use them sort of like 'custom oscillators', and tweak sort of like analog.

one thing i am hoping the k5000s will do, perhaps with its formant filters, perhaps with its envelopes, is to be able to assign one or two knobs to make these kind of 'large scale' changes that aren't just 'brighten, darken' or 'louden, soften'. it already has the 'odd/even' and 'high/low' knobs which i found sort of interesting. i didn't really like the raw sound of the k5000s that much, but this ability really interests me, and i got interesting results tweaking these knobs along with the more 'traditional' ones...

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Message 23/41 09-Jan-02 @ 10:29 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nothingnewhere

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craig- analog VAs are around cause they are easy to use. people didnt buy the fs1r because it was a bitch to program, not because it didnt sound great. people want to have instant gratification more than they want great sounds i think.

nomad- alot of the coolest patches i come up with are the ones that i start out programming not knowing exactly what i want. everything you do has a purpose, but sometimes you dont find out what that purpose is untill you've completed the task.

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Message 24/41 10-Jan-02 @ 02:44 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

99devils

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Yeah, that's my point. Analog is popular because it's easy to use and easy to program. Instant gratification = Korg Triton and the like, IMHO.

Can I get a string sound? Out of any analog I'm sure I could.. Put me in front of FM, no fucking way

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Message 25/41 11-Jan-02 @ 01:39 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

xoxos

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i believe every parameter on my dx100/4op yammies is rt controllable via sysex. one of these days i'll get around to writing an environment for it in logic.. then it's just gonna be a case of clicking and hyperdrawing. haven't found such an environ on the web yet.

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Message 26/41 11-Jan-02 @ 02:56 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nomad

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actually i talked to a guy once that had made a knob box for his TX81Z... i would imagine with the specs, you could easily make up an environment in Logic or on a peavey 1600x...

i wish the params on my cz101 were real time controllable....

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Message 27/41 12-Jan-02 @ 09:22 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

Pongoid

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Things will evolve again soon. Stereo is getting old. You will see more developement in sound placement in things like surround, quad, thx, octo, etc.. as well as more independent developements in software-based environments like MAX, Super Collider, Kyma, and Reaktor involving hybrid types of synthesis.

Ape

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Message 28/41 22-Jan-02 @ 10:48 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

sitar

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Did a search for Filter Factory. Where is it? Who makes it? Is it a plug-in or hardware? sounds interesting.

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Message 29/41 23-Jan-02 @ 04:21 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nomad

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electrix. hardware. rack filter. was blown out by guitar center for $99 not that long ago, though they probably don't have any more....

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Message 30/41 23-Jan-02 @ 06:37 AM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

influx

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nope. on the street again for $200. well worth it tho

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Message 31/41 23-Jan-02 @ 01:01 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

sitar

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nice.

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Message 32/41 23-Jan-02 @ 09:03 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

sitar

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Checking around the online shops it seems it's not on the market. Electrix Repeater is the only thing I find of the company. Would have to look s/h it seems.

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Message 33/41 23-Jan-02 @ 10:00 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

99devils

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The filter factory and warp factory are the bomb, sir! I got the pair for less than one of 'em is going for now

The FF isn't exactly a Sherman, but it is damn nice, real analog, and much cheaper. In my case a hell of a lot cheaper

-Craig

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Message 34/41 23-Jan-02 @ 10:52 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

sitar

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Rub it in Craig. I'll keep an eye out for the most expensive one I can find ;[

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Message 35/41 07-Feb-02 @ 09:18 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

99devils

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Here's what I'm talking about...

http://namm.harmony-central.com/WNAMM02/Content/Hartmann_Music/PR/Neuron.html

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Message 36/41 07-Feb-02 @ 10:52 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

Maarten

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Yeah seen that one a few weeks ago... can you say hard-on?

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Message 37/41 08-Feb-02 @ 06:38 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

99devils

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Unfortunately, can you say five thousand fucking dollars!?!?!

-Craig

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Message 38/41 08-Feb-02 @ 09:07 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

Pongoid

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mmmmm.....yup

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Message 39/41 08-Feb-02 @ 09:21 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

knowa

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yeah but no demo to dl? wtf!

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Message 40/41 08-Feb-02 @ 10:50 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

nothingnewhere

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how much is that capybara thing again??

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Message 41/41 10-Feb-02 @ 06:45 PM - RE: Are new synths boring !!

Pongoid

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Oh....that thing. Got a lifetime to spend on synthesis? You can do it there. Never heard a bad word about that synth apart from the price. Kyma seems pretty nuts. You might take a look at a Titanium, and things like Absynth, Max, and Super Collider, if you're really feeling big and bad. The Titanium, an 828, controller keyboard, and external drive (80g) would probably leave you pretty prepared for most gigs, and mobile session system as well. Fits in a backpack as well. Food for thought.

Ape

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