Karma or Virus? Advice needed - Synths & synthesis forums

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Subject: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

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Original Message 1/36 20-Dec-01 @ 10:45 PM - Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Ryan Irwin

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Im interested in purchasing one of these two synths because they are in the same price range. This will be my first synth and I am not sure if I need the features of the Karma workstation or just a straight up synth like the Virus. I am interested in the sonic possibilities and MIDI sequencing features of the Karma but if I am sequencing and sampling using Logic software would I be better suited for the Virus?

My main concern is sound quality, specifically bass lines for dance music but also Im looking to get as many sounds as possible from one synth. Does the Karma's MOSS expansion card come even close to the Virus in generating analog-like sounds? Also, which has better drum sounds?

Which would be better for interfacing with Logic sequencing and sampling software? I want to be able to play with samples using the keyboard. Also, which would be better suited for use with a 24bit/96khz sound card?

I know that you can expand the sound sets on the Karma with the expansion cards. Virus I believe is not expandable. Is this a limitation?

Note that I will be using the synth for home studio production, not for live performance. I am looking for ease of use (i have never had a synth before), sound quality and possibilities, and ability to interface with Logic sequencing and sampling software. Any advice would be much appreciated.

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Message 2/36 21-Dec-01 @ 11:01 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

xoxos

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i'd say make sure you paly them some more before purchasing one.. they're very different instruments..

the karma offers much less in terms of immediate control in patching compared to the virus, but covers a much greater range of sounds (i'd think..) a va is great for patching quickly withing the purely electronic palette.

the 'performance' features on the karma are extremely intriguing, but you might be paying for a feature you don't want so much for dance.. if you're working with say typical repeating rhythmic motifs in dance, you might not really be so much into having an algorithm that emulates complex natural harp strumming, et c.

i have a z1, which uses a larger (not sure how much) version of the moss system, and it offers very extensive analog modelling.. probably more complex than the virus. recently i've had the impression that some of my higher pitched analog stuff on the z has had a very samey quality in mixes.. which may be a result of the filter, which is pretty damn satisfying, but based on other user's comments, maybe not the best in the biz. or it may be just that i've been using similar patches on songs lately.. (true..) i've had it just under a year so i really don't feel i can make a definitive statement on this. definately i've found gobs and bogs of killer awesome awesome dance synth tones that would make a track, which very different qualities in the high end range.. okay, ignore everythnig i say..

of ocurse, if you don't just do dance, the karma is going to give you loads more sounds, so you can experiemnt with different types of music, which i have found i really enjoy. with the acoustic modeling on the moss board, i'd reckon the entire world is yours.

i don't think i could live w/o my z and a va though

best of both worlds..

does the karma have a digital output expansion board? still want to get one for my z.. the concept of say.. saxophone modeling with 0% signal noise is just enthralling.. from another planet sorta stuff.

anyone else want to comment? i've never played a karma, but from hearing it in tracks, it sounds like it's got a curious produced-sound, ie. everything that comes out of it sounds like it's been mastered, with the encompassing bass, warm mids and all.. just an impression i had.

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Message 3/36 21-Dec-01 @ 03:03 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

99devils

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It's basically the same sound engine as the Triton. Like Xoxos said, you should play them both because they are extremely different synths with vastly different capabilities.

In terms of sheer analog sound, the Virus is going to win.

But you're not going to get realistic instruments, non-analog drum sounds, or a sequencer with the Virus.

-Craig

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Message 4/36 02-Jan-02 @ 12:57 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

influx

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boo!

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Message 5/36 19-Jan-02 @ 07:50 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

a.d.d.

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depending on your karma you might get a virus.

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Message 6/36 13-Feb-02 @ 02:51 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

onemind

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depending on your virus, you might have bad karma...

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Message 7/36 13-Feb-02 @ 06:49 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

both

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You really need both or something equivalent. I've seen a hundred posts like yours and the reason is simple. There isn't one synth that can do everything well. Instinctively you know this and are then thrown into a quandry on how to best spend your money. I would say get the Karma as it is probably more versatile then look for a good deal on a used VA when you can afford it. I am an ametuer but have been playing for years. It goes something like this. First you want to get that killer synth. Then "Oh gee a I need a mixer." " Wait I need a hard disk recorder." "Some out board gear would be nice." "Hey how about a sequencer." "Some plug-ins anyone." "A new module, yeah that's the ticket." New gear addiction is worse than drugs. I know because I gave up drugs 15 years ago and still can't help craving new gear. Either plan on spending $5000.00 up front or spread it out over time. But don't kid yourself. Playing and recording music is like losing your virginity. You can't do it halfway.

Good luck.

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Message 8/36 13-Feb-02 @ 09:43 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

influx

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but..you dont HAVE TO get the new top expensive shit!!!!

I mean..ok..karma...does a LOT...strings, pads, basses, etc...adn it has all those dope features like the KARMA deal, but...

its $1500!!!! a bit less used but not much.

SO...I suggest the kawai K5000S. Covers all the bases (even basses) pretty damn well! doesnt have as many of the bells and whistles, but if you play your cards right you could score for say $500 or $550?

THEN...maybe a VirusA (%700) or a 1st gen Nova tabletop (%700--%800)

thats the SAME amount youd spend on the karma, for TWO synths thatll do SO MANY FUCKING SOUNDS FOR SO LONG THAT YOUR HEAD WILL SPIN!!!

if you ever mastered either...or CLAIMED to...to the point where you just couldnt come up with new sounds I would say there was something wrong

add to that a nice affordable sampler (fuckin E6400 'classic' for $500!!!) and you have a HELLA powerful machine

yeah, you should get a mixer of some sort, but..if you have a good PC you can mix in there, so you dont need a huge mixer. just enough to get the stereo outs of each sound source into the PC to record...

theres a HUGE difference between what we THINK we NEED and what will really get the job done. HUGE difference, and people seem to hardly ever realize that!

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Message 9/36 13-Feb-02 @ 09:54 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Maarten

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Why would he need 7 VirusA's and 7-8 Nova's Influx? I mean parts and voices enough no?

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Message 10/36 13-Feb-02 @ 02:29 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

99devils

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I think he meant $700 and $700-800 as in that's how much they go for used.

I agree with Mr. Influx. For a little more than the Karma you could get yourself an XP-50 and a used Nord Rack, or lots of other combinations of worthwhile gear. Fuck an Emu at that price and a couple hundred in sample CDs and you've got your workstation sounds and sampler.

-Craig

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Message 11/36 13-Feb-02 @ 09:45 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

influx

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ahahaha %700!!! those were supposed to be dollar signs

hehe. 7 viriii!!! 7 or 8 Novas!!!! woohooo!!!

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Message 12/36 14-Feb-02 @ 09:14 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Maarten

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Thanks for pointing that out Craig :P

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Message 13/36 22-Feb-02 @ 11:45 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

onemind

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TRITON le....?

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Message 14/36 24-Feb-02 @ 04:11 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

realtrance

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influx has excellent advice here. If you're new to buying synths, though, be careful to prep yourself for buying used. For the most part it works but don't go in eyes closed and uninformed, is all I'm saying. Regulars here can offer you both good advice and possibly some good leads on some good used gear from reputable sources.

rt

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Message 15/36 08-Mar-02 @ 12:05 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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i have sold many synths on e-bay and bought many on e-bay. Buy from someone with lots of transactions and good feedback, and you should be ok. No one mentioned trinity, or wavestation. Those are great sounding. I would get a trinity or triton with the moss card if I had to go back and do it again. You get a powerful sequencer , fx, and analog modeling and sampling if you have that option. If karma is in your budget, you could buy a used trinity that is maxed out and sounds alot like a triton with great fx, and a used analog modular. But if you want a one stop shop for all those sounds, buy a Korg Oasys card and you would have all the sounds from the triton, the fx from the trinity, the drums from ther ER-a, and the analog modeling of the profecy, z1 and EA-1. you get twelve parts with four fx per part. It's ADAT i/o and spdif only though. Two on ebay for under $400.

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Message 16/36 08-Mar-02 @ 12:18 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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here is alink with some audio

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Message 17/36 08-Mar-02 @ 01:14 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

influx

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"It's ADAT i/o and spdif only though. Two on ebay for under $400"

actually, no...stereo analog IO, too on 1/4" unbalanced

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Message 18/36 08-Mar-02 @ 03:41 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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that is good to know. I think I am going to track one down myself. I like the idea of a mutli channel fx unit as well as the synth sounds.

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Message 19/36 08-Mar-02 @ 03:47 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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those analog AD's are 24bit 128oversampling as well, and even 128 oversampling on the DA's. some cards run 8 times oversampling on the outputs. While i was at the page I did listen to the Kharma mp3s. Damn that is a nice synth. The arpegios supposibly allow you to play realistic guitar patterns etc. I'll have to go to a synth shop and play on one now to see how it all works.. Hell, Herbie Hancock is using one now on Tour, and he's a monster piano player. I might get his new albumn just out of pure curiosity.

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Message 20/36 08-Mar-02 @ 10:21 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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ok, listened to all the mp3's on the kharma and watched the video. I am sold, that thing rocks. I could almost hear all the textures and layered sounds that Hybrid creates/ They use The Triton for a lot of their synth parts, at least that is what they us when they came . We rented two for them for their live set but the crew didn't get it set up right and they ended up just spinning and doing som stuff on the mpc's. I am getting one of those ASAFP. And it supports the Z1 moss card for 6 voices of analog modeling. The oasys is cheap, but those realtime arps and chord stuff on the kharma are mind bending.

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Message 21/36 08-Mar-02 @ 09:00 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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ok played with the kharma today for about two hours. Not that impressed. The layering of arpegios is coola dn the knobs cana be assigned to change the type of pattern, so if you are playing the guitar and want a strum , then a slow pause , and then somthing else. You dial between them. I was'nt getting the kind of results that the guy ibn the demo video was getting. It takes time to get aquainted with use of those parameters. Nice sound set, Great strings and like the triton and trinity before , those 48khz samples glisten. The main fx, eq'sand comps work well, and would be fine for a live gig. I am still not totally sold on it over an oasys though. Really all the arps do is play multi-layers arps of one chord. This could be done on any synths with arps by just copying the midi over to a track that plays that patch. Chord memory was cool, and you can have Real time patterns playback like on the roland groove boxes. All in all it with the moss installed you would have a pretty large pallete to work with. I never did find any patches that sounded like the demo's flutes, and brass or the bowed insttruments. They may have been from the EXB-moss. If you want nice glassy sounds and crystal clear strings, this is for you, if you want the best synth for making analog sounds , the Virus. Like I said, get a virus A and a trinity or oasys card. I think I am going to go with the Oasys myself.

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Message 22/36 08-Mar-02 @ 09:11 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

influx

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karma, brett. not kharma

theres a dharma synth due out soon. then you can be well rounded. maybe get a boddhisattva sequencer

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Message 23/36 08-Mar-02 @ 09:23 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

knowa

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great for those "one hand" claps...

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Message 24/36 08-Mar-02 @ 09:56 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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I can rack mount it with my Dogma smapler.

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Message 25/36 09-Mar-02 @ 12:46 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

influx

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KNOWA!

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Message 26/36 09-Mar-02 @ 06:48 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

onemind

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LOL...one hand claps!! nice!

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Message 27/36 25-Mar-02 @ 07:11 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

realtrance

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Seriously, Brett, I appreciate your enthusiasm but a) judging _anything_ from a host of marching .MP3s is truly absurd. A good musician can make anything sound like almost anything (within reasonable limits, you're not going to get a Steinway out of a Prophecy), and I've never heard a synth demo online that ever had anything to do with an instrument I ended up trying out; and b) what did you expect, a few hours in the store with a technology that is like crack for tweakheads and you're disappointed in what's possible? People spend long hours thru the night with that Karma thing getting very specific, subtle, particular seconds' worth of interesting results, which they record and then move on... _if_ they're using Karma seriously.

Once again I really appreciate the serious musical sanity here; more often than not you'll have excellent recommendations for good, used instruments, and the regular reminder that you could still, for instance, be messing around with a Wavestation and not be done with it even if you'd gotten it new when it came out (for example).

It's FAR too easy to get seduced into spending unnecessarily on instruments to make your music for you; here's my religion to close:

"spend time, not money"

.... works for most things. Time is significantly more valuable than money, cannot be retrieved when lost, is MUCH more satisfying when well spent, and slips away before you know it, with no further options.

I have spent most of my life trying desperately to slow down. The worst things in the world try to make you go ever faster, ever more superciliously, so that you never focus on anything and are never satisfied. RESIST that.

Turn a knob as slowly as you can and find the satisfaction you are after.

rt

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Message 28/36 25-Mar-02 @ 11:44 AM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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well, I didn't go play with the karma for you or anyone other than myself. i have been interested in the korg gear for a while and wanted to see what the arpegiators (GE engines) could do. As for the mp3's, they sound damn good and are only made using the synth. No other proccessors. that was the point.The fx are very good! If you are looking for a piece of kit that can provide a total working environment for producing then the tritons and oasys would do the job. The physical modeling impressed me the most. As for wasting time, that sure was a long thread. You're not getting that time back either. Anyway, slowing down is how you get old.

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Message 29/36 25-Mar-02 @ 04:15 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

knowa

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which is your favorite management theory?

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Message 30/36 25-Mar-02 @ 07:30 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Brett B

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and I wasn't impressed with the karma because it felt like it wasn't made as well as the tritons. No sampler, and less sounds. The arpegiators didn't really make it seem more attractive then a Triton with a sampler on board. I read the entire manual and was doing just fine at understanding it and using it's features. when i say played, i am simplifying the process. It would have been better to say, "Disecting ". You could give me any synth and in a few hours I can be a power user. No ego, just the truth. I am sick of explaining shit peopole like you. So I'll stay out of these kinds of situtations where people need true technical advice and really just want the same old answer.

and if you think the demos don't sound like the synths, you are crazy. Have a listen to the waldorf, or the virus demos. they are a great cross section of sounds in the pallete. and from what i hear in demo's the only ones that have ever sounded like professional productions are the Triton series. While other synths can do great sounds , they are not a one stop shop for production.

So go make some "Real Trance" then ok!

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Message 31/36 25-Mar-02 @ 07:51 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Herb Alpert

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you don`t make things easy on yourself.

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Message 32/36 25-Mar-02 @ 08:38 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

xoxos

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rt are you sure you're an american with that kinda talk? don't worry, i've already reported you to the authorities.

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Message 33/36 25-Mar-02 @ 11:33 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

realtrance

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xoxos, I'm honored, thank you!

Sorry I blew my cover there for a moment, though. Off to buy a pair of Nikes, cya!!! Then.. McDonald's! I'm in heaven! Where are my diet pills? oh.....

rt

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Message 34/36 26-Mar-02 @ 07:16 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

influx

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dont forget your plastic american flag flapping around on the back of your oversized truck

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Message 35/36 27-Mar-02 @ 10:12 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

xoxos

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err, influx.. that's not the truck..

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Message 36/36 29-Mar-02 @ 01:05 PM - RE: Karma or Virus? Advice needed

Pongoid

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I'll tell you all what, what I've made, and what I've found reflected almost NONE of what I've heard for demos of any piece I have. Demos are just to show that it does something interesting but not scare off your average Joe. I'll double that sentiment, especially if it's a Wavestation A/D rack, or an MS20. Got one here, and it sounds way nastier than a Karma could ever sound, but then again it is a semi-modular analog beast, that costs less than half the price of a Karma, and takes time. Arpeggiators? Cute, but they are toys. Lose the bells and whisltes and the Karma's another rompler. Triton wasn't all that hot either. Korg is not the only brand out there. Check out some of the others. You might be surprised by what you find. Still it's all a matter of taste. Go with what works for you even if it is shit after all.

Ape

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