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Forums - Theory / composition / technique
Subject: Live techniques?
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Original Message 1/65 20-Jan-02 @ 09:36 AM - Live techniques?
I was just wondering how each of you approaches live performance. There's a lot of different ways to play to a crowd, and although I've tried a bunch of different methods myself, I'm always curious to see how others are doing it, and what we can learn from each others' methods.
Ape
Ape
Message 2/65 20-Jan-02 @ 12:27 PM - RE: Live techniques?
i just smile at the girls. you got to the the eye contact thing, none of this shoe-gazing indie nonsense. 
and i'm in bath on friday (dunno where) with some band, then with www.thescooters.com in barfly cardiff on sunday.
and i'm in bath on friday (dunno where) with some band, then with www.thescooters.com in barfly cardiff on sunday.
Message 3/65 20-Jan-02 @ 02:18 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Cute. Sadly, it says nothing of the techniques you use to make your music in a live setting. Come on.
Ape
Ape
Message 4/65 20-Jan-02 @ 03:10 PM Edit: 20-Jan-02 | 06:18 PM - RE: Live techniques?
nah, i'm sax player so i just blow my own horn, innit.
[edit] how do you mean then? i've only played with 'live' bands, no sequencing, u know?
so what do you mean, like building sets? one thing that's no good is long gaps between numbers no matter what style. BUT then again if you make it look like you've got a set 'set' order and just do it too 'slick', ie the gaps are too short, then audience ppl (over here anyway) tend too feel they've got no space for their input, which counts 4 a lot. you've got to include the audience, it's not like dj'ing with records for 2 hours.
[edit] how do you mean then? i've only played with 'live' bands, no sequencing, u know?
so what do you mean, like building sets? one thing that's no good is long gaps between numbers no matter what style. BUT then again if you make it look like you've got a set 'set' order and just do it too 'slick', ie the gaps are too short, then audience ppl (over here anyway) tend too feel they've got no space for their input, which counts 4 a lot. you've got to include the audience, it's not like dj'ing with records for 2 hours.
Message 5/65 22-Jan-02 @ 07:47 AM - RE: Live techniques?
I was referring more to live electronic sets.
Ape
Ape
Message 6/65 22-Jan-02 @ 12:52 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Unfortunately I'm not there yet, would love to though in the future... Imagine mainly running sequences from my MPC muting here and there, playing some simple notes in between (just to get the idea for myself that I'm not just playing back something) and tweeking some knobs.
But since you ask, why don't you describe some of your techniques... only seems fair and might be interesting to read.
-M-
But since you ask, why don't you describe some of your techniques... only seems fair and might be interesting to read.
-M-
Message 7/65 27-Jan-02 @ 09:05 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Soon enough, but I can't believe that there's nobody else willing to talk about how they do it.
Ape
Ape
Message 8/65 27-Jan-02 @ 11:44 PM - RE: Live techniques?
oh jesus, just type it in. 'nobody else' is willing? who is the person that is then?
Message 9/65 28-Jan-02 @ 09:54 PM - RE: Live techniques?
I'm going to add some content to this thread even if no one else is...
My friend and I do a mixture of improvising and using programmed bits...we have songs, but inbetween them we do little segues and transitions.
For drums we use two Korg ES-1's synced up with my old MMT8. For live tweakability they are dope...you can change patterns on the fly and tweak fx, all that in realtime. Most of our songs we each have patterns that we contribute and most of the synth stuff is done live, though the MMT8 will do a bassline if one of us is particularly busy with drum stuff...It's a pretty flexible setup for us, especially if one of us wants to spin some different stuff in...
If anyone's interested, you can check out an mp3 of us doing a live track at:
http://www.xoxmag.com/audio/subliminalman.mp3
Roshi
My friend and I do a mixture of improvising and using programmed bits...we have songs, but inbetween them we do little segues and transitions.
For drums we use two Korg ES-1's synced up with my old MMT8. For live tweakability they are dope...you can change patterns on the fly and tweak fx, all that in realtime. Most of our songs we each have patterns that we contribute and most of the synth stuff is done live, though the MMT8 will do a bassline if one of us is particularly busy with drum stuff...It's a pretty flexible setup for us, especially if one of us wants to spin some different stuff in...
If anyone's interested, you can check out an mp3 of us doing a live track at:
http://www.xoxmag.com/audio/subliminalman.mp3
Roshi
Message 10/65 29-Jan-02 @ 11:17 AM - RE: Live techniques?
Nice, a shame though that there appears to be little to no change throughout the 8+ minutes... could be some slight, subtle things though, I'm at work and on minimal volume.
-M-
-M-
Message 11/65 03-Feb-02 @ 10:54 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Roshi, cool. Thanks for having the balls to reply. Respect. Your way is one way of doing things. I imagine that will turn into manipulation of more things as time goes on. I'll give you a sick little tip: the ES-1 with a dinky little sampler like an sp-202, or an SU10, or even a CD/MD of ambient or noise, makes a nasty little tool with the external ins and the ring mod.
Maarten, I actually work in a lot of different ways when I do performances. Sometimes I work with a laptop, and midi controller and mixer, sometimes with a sampler, synth, drum machine, sequencer, bass, mixer, mic, and effects; and sometimes, just my bass and F/X, a digital drummer and a keyboardist. It really all depends on the gig. I'm sure you can imagine a lot of different ways of integrating things like sequences and samples, and rehearsed and improvised electronic sections to all kinds of music. That's one thing I'm exploring.
For a dance set on my own I work with a couple of mmt8's, an old laptop with cubase 2, and synth/sampler/drum machine/effects, and I write loads of sequences, and sounds, and just sort of piece them together as is appropriate for the mood of the party. One mmt8 controls the synths and drum machine if necessary, one the sampler, and the laptop controls all of them for the complex pieces, if I feel like playing something very precise, and intricate that just can't be done properly on improv alone. Sometimes friends sync up and we have a jam, and sometimes it's with musicians using non-electronic forms of instrumentation. It's all music, and it's all fun. So who else is doing things and how?
Ape
Maarten, I actually work in a lot of different ways when I do performances. Sometimes I work with a laptop, and midi controller and mixer, sometimes with a sampler, synth, drum machine, sequencer, bass, mixer, mic, and effects; and sometimes, just my bass and F/X, a digital drummer and a keyboardist. It really all depends on the gig. I'm sure you can imagine a lot of different ways of integrating things like sequences and samples, and rehearsed and improvised electronic sections to all kinds of music. That's one thing I'm exploring.
For a dance set on my own I work with a couple of mmt8's, an old laptop with cubase 2, and synth/sampler/drum machine/effects, and I write loads of sequences, and sounds, and just sort of piece them together as is appropriate for the mood of the party. One mmt8 controls the synths and drum machine if necessary, one the sampler, and the laptop controls all of them for the complex pieces, if I feel like playing something very precise, and intricate that just can't be done properly on improv alone. Sometimes friends sync up and we have a jam, and sometimes it's with musicians using non-electronic forms of instrumentation. It's all music, and it's all fun. So who else is doing things and how?
Ape
Message 12/65 10-Feb-02 @ 06:51 PM - RE: Live techniques?
I know I'm not the only person doing live sets, and Roshi was kind enought to respond. What about you other fools? Armchair warriors? I know DuoElectro aren't, so wassup with the rest of you? Stand up and represent!
Ape
Ape
Message 13/65 26-Feb-02 @ 06:21 AM - RE: Live techniques?
Ok Ape, this ain't getting the reponse it deserves, I'm interested in hearing how everyone else does it as well... and ways in which it can come across better visually more than just twiddlen knobs... me, I use a laptop with VST spitting out midi to my A3000, SP-808 and JP8000, this gives me the option to tweak cutoffs, add effects, mute parts, do eq sweeps on the desk, and play over the top live with the JP-8000 if I feel like it... it's reliable and allows me to string my tracks together into one continous live set which works for me over the MPC route...
Blueprint
Blueprint
Message 14/65 05-Mar-02 @ 04:42 PM - RE: Live techniques?
right on, that should work. You ever run into timing or stability issues with the lappy?
Ape
Ape
Message 15/65 05-Mar-02 @ 11:12 PM - RE: Live techniques?
If u're not throwing the laptop across stage, or throwing pages of midi at it, it's fine... I kinda tread pretty carefully with it though... once I had way too much going out, which worked well on the PC, but experienced drop outs on the (not as fast) laptop... with the SP-808 now, I can move alot more audio off the A3000 and take more strain off the sequencer... Besides the MPC, I've used all kinds of setups on stage, RM1x's, MC-505's, MD's and the Laptop setup wins by far in my book... The Drumstation works well live with the seperate outs... and I wouldn't mind another drum machine independant, synced to midi which I could improv with, or maybe a nov basstation keyboard to tweak... but back to my question... despite doing my best efforts to amuse the crowd while I play, does anyone have any interesting/original ways of keeping the audience amused besides the wall to wall screens chemi/underworld style...?
Message 16/65 06-Mar-02 @ 06:15 PM - RE: Live techniques?
I saw otto von schirach live, and he was really great, despite him having a broken ankle and having to perform sitting down in front of his laptop.
He would make the funniest ed up faces while he was performing, and he was totally into it...it made me laugh a lot...then again, his beats are pretty freaky, too, so that helped...imagine polka 3/4 beats alternating with hardcore 4/4 beats...
He's worth seeing if the schematic tour is still going on...
Roshi
He would make the funniest ed up faces while he was performing, and he was totally into it...it made me laugh a lot...then again, his beats are pretty freaky, too, so that helped...imagine polka 3/4 beats alternating with hardcore 4/4 beats...
He's worth seeing if the schematic tour is still going on...
Roshi
Message 17/65 08-Mar-02 @ 12:25 AM Edit: 08-Mar-02 | 01:14 AM - RE: Live techniques?
M'kay, sorry I missed this one... one of me favorite topics...=)
While I've done it a lot of different ways, the last two years has really seen me trim down my live rig. First off, for those who aren't familiar with how I like to play, understand what I'm gonna say here applies to how "I" like to do things for mesef, not what I think anyone else should try to do... Also, I have worked with a partner (or sometimes two) in the past, and that would be handled a bit differently....
To begin with, I dunna like long linear sequences, I don't have "pre-programmed" songs where I just mute bits or play over the top. If I was gonna go that route, I'd just as soon use a MD, DAT, CD or whatnot to do the backing bits (ala Space Girl style).... So, what I do is play a lot of 8bar sequences (or sometimes 4, 16, or the occasional 32bar bit). There are occasions where I'll run almost no pre-made sequences and I'll just do arps... but mostly, I'll run 8 bars at a time, deciding where I'll go based on my own feeling and the vibe I'm gettin' from the crowd.
Now, how I do that could be: RS7K as my main controller/brain, controlling a couple of other modules (like the Virus or AN1x) and probably at least a keyboard controller, unless I've brought along a synth that has keys...
A variation is: MC505 as brain, with the AN1x for a controller keyboard, Virus, and A3K or SP505 for samples... Sometimes I'll forgo the AN1x and use the little Dark Star synth... In that case, I just use the 505s chicklet keyboard as my "keys".
Another variation is: Jomox XBase09 as timing brain and drums, Prophecy, AN1x, and the 505 or RS7K slaved running 8 bar sequences or what not, maybe adding in the Virus depending on the venue....
I've done a couple of shows in the last few months where I just took out the RS7K... not as much fun for me overall, but it's easy to transport and setup.
All that said, I've recently been doing a lot of thinking on this subject.... I play a lot of venues where they have little idea or understanding of how to handle a live act. These places are set up for DJs, and in respect to DJ setups, they are quite adequate. Some of you that may be out there doing this sort of stuff can probably relate: rarely do these places have a "real" sound person, i.e., someone who's out on the floor somewhere making EQ and level adjustments on the fly... I mean, for the most part, they dunna need that sort of thing for DJs, as DJs play pre-recorded, produced mixes. It's aggravating for me though, cos even though I might get a soundcheck (and I dunna always get that), by the time the room is filled up, a lot changes... So, it's quite possible my mix will sound "off" on the floor, even though my monitors say everthing is okay...
To some degree, I've been able to remedy this problem by using "spotters." People who are in my crew that are out on the floor during the set, checking to insure things sound as they should. If the mix on the floor needs adjusting, they come up and tell me what I need to adjust... most everything gets sorted in the first 10 minutes or so, but it's still a bit of a pain. The few rare occasions where there has been a sound guy on the floor were great for me, as I could concentrate on the vibe without having to worry too much about the mix....
Anyway, from talking to several different live acts about this (Space Girl, Skylab2000, Rabbit and the Moon, Hyperdriver, Motpol, The Prophecy Collective, etc.,), they all agree that it puts the live act at something of a disadvantage most of the time. And for most of them, that's the single biggest reason they choose to use backing media like CDs, MD, DAT or whatnot... an' this seems especially true for the drums and bass, the most common elements that these folks generally have committed to a backing source.
In all honesty, I don't think the crowd knows or cares much, they just wanna dance... Space Girl gets as much respect from the crowd as Motpol (who does all his bits live) so I often wonder whether or not I'm just going through a lot of extra headache for nothin' except stroking my own ego... I dunno...
In the end, it's all about doing something the crowd likes, not what I like or what I think is "real." So, if I take my ego (i.e., my desire to do it all live) out of the equation, maybe I'm just grumbling cos other folks get as much "credit" as mesef from the crowd, even though I feel like I'm doing more "real" work... This ain't new for me, I been fighting my own moral/ego issues about this pretty much since I started in the electronic side of things...
Anyhoos, that's me two pesos...
Peace All
While I've done it a lot of different ways, the last two years has really seen me trim down my live rig. First off, for those who aren't familiar with how I like to play, understand what I'm gonna say here applies to how "I" like to do things for mesef, not what I think anyone else should try to do... Also, I have worked with a partner (or sometimes two) in the past, and that would be handled a bit differently....
To begin with, I dunna like long linear sequences, I don't have "pre-programmed" songs where I just mute bits or play over the top. If I was gonna go that route, I'd just as soon use a MD, DAT, CD or whatnot to do the backing bits (ala Space Girl style).... So, what I do is play a lot of 8bar sequences (or sometimes 4, 16, or the occasional 32bar bit). There are occasions where I'll run almost no pre-made sequences and I'll just do arps... but mostly, I'll run 8 bars at a time, deciding where I'll go based on my own feeling and the vibe I'm gettin' from the crowd.
Now, how I do that could be: RS7K as my main controller/brain, controlling a couple of other modules (like the Virus or AN1x) and probably at least a keyboard controller, unless I've brought along a synth that has keys...
A variation is: MC505 as brain, with the AN1x for a controller keyboard, Virus, and A3K or SP505 for samples... Sometimes I'll forgo the AN1x and use the little Dark Star synth... In that case, I just use the 505s chicklet keyboard as my "keys".
Another variation is: Jomox XBase09 as timing brain and drums, Prophecy, AN1x, and the 505 or RS7K slaved running 8 bar sequences or what not, maybe adding in the Virus depending on the venue....
I've done a couple of shows in the last few months where I just took out the RS7K... not as much fun for me overall, but it's easy to transport and setup.
All that said, I've recently been doing a lot of thinking on this subject.... I play a lot of venues where they have little idea or understanding of how to handle a live act. These places are set up for DJs, and in respect to DJ setups, they are quite adequate. Some of you that may be out there doing this sort of stuff can probably relate: rarely do these places have a "real" sound person, i.e., someone who's out on the floor somewhere making EQ and level adjustments on the fly... I mean, for the most part, they dunna need that sort of thing for DJs, as DJs play pre-recorded, produced mixes. It's aggravating for me though, cos even though I might get a soundcheck (and I dunna always get that), by the time the room is filled up, a lot changes... So, it's quite possible my mix will sound "off" on the floor, even though my monitors say everthing is okay...
To some degree, I've been able to remedy this problem by using "spotters." People who are in my crew that are out on the floor during the set, checking to insure things sound as they should. If the mix on the floor needs adjusting, they come up and tell me what I need to adjust... most everything gets sorted in the first 10 minutes or so, but it's still a bit of a pain. The few rare occasions where there has been a sound guy on the floor were great for me, as I could concentrate on the vibe without having to worry too much about the mix....
Anyway, from talking to several different live acts about this (Space Girl, Skylab2000, Rabbit and the Moon, Hyperdriver, Motpol, The Prophecy Collective, etc.,), they all agree that it puts the live act at something of a disadvantage most of the time. And for most of them, that's the single biggest reason they choose to use backing media like CDs, MD, DAT or whatnot... an' this seems especially true for the drums and bass, the most common elements that these folks generally have committed to a backing source.
In all honesty, I don't think the crowd knows or cares much, they just wanna dance... Space Girl gets as much respect from the crowd as Motpol (who does all his bits live) so I often wonder whether or not I'm just going through a lot of extra headache for nothin' except stroking my own ego... I dunno...
In the end, it's all about doing something the crowd likes, not what I like or what I think is "real." So, if I take my ego (i.e., my desire to do it all live) out of the equation, maybe I'm just grumbling cos other folks get as much "credit" as mesef from the crowd, even though I feel like I'm doing more "real" work... This ain't new for me, I been fighting my own moral/ego issues about this pretty much since I started in the electronic side of things...
Anyhoos, that's me two pesos...
Peace All
Message 18/65 08-Mar-02 @ 03:41 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Well said, Spawn. Good note about the spotters. I've even been known to jump 'offsage' for a few seconds in the middle of a set, just to check the sound myself with a fat loop running if I don't have a spotter in the crowd.
As of late I'm finding more and more that I'm preferring a setup consisting of my QRack, A3k, mmt8 (filled with loops of various sizes for improv stuff), Xbase09, laptop running Cubase 2.8 (for complex sequences, if the I feel like integrating intricate, linear pieces into the set at the time) or an Atari 1040STe running cubase 1 (same purpose, but not as portable), a couple of guitar pedals, RNC comp, controller keyboard, bass guitar, and a 1202 or 1604. A compact, versatile powerhouse setup, it seems to be doing the job whether playing solo, or group gigs for the moment. Sometimes I also sequence with the Xbase or the Q for step stuff on the fly, but that's really only during the 'very experimental' gigs.
About the only other things I'm shopping for are another comp for the master out, and maybe something along the lines of a TC 1120 to sweeten up the mix. Not necessary, but kinda craving 'The Sound' live, in my old age.
Otto's killer. Haven't seen him live yet, but his records are out of hand, and he's a very cool guy as well.
Just a quick note: a really good friend of mine has taken to doing live sets with nothing but a laptop running fruity loops, and another with a dinky lappy running fuity, sp-505, es-1, all unsynched, and a tiny Behringer mixer. The latter is actually one of the top electronic musicians in France right now. His sets rock thousands every week. Just goes to show that it ain't all what you use.
More live sets!!!!!
Ape
As of late I'm finding more and more that I'm preferring a setup consisting of my QRack, A3k, mmt8 (filled with loops of various sizes for improv stuff), Xbase09, laptop running Cubase 2.8 (for complex sequences, if the I feel like integrating intricate, linear pieces into the set at the time) or an Atari 1040STe running cubase 1 (same purpose, but not as portable), a couple of guitar pedals, RNC comp, controller keyboard, bass guitar, and a 1202 or 1604. A compact, versatile powerhouse setup, it seems to be doing the job whether playing solo, or group gigs for the moment. Sometimes I also sequence with the Xbase or the Q for step stuff on the fly, but that's really only during the 'very experimental' gigs.
About the only other things I'm shopping for are another comp for the master out, and maybe something along the lines of a TC 1120 to sweeten up the mix. Not necessary, but kinda craving 'The Sound' live, in my old age.
Otto's killer. Haven't seen him live yet, but his records are out of hand, and he's a very cool guy as well.
Just a quick note: a really good friend of mine has taken to doing live sets with nothing but a laptop running fruity loops, and another with a dinky lappy running fuity, sp-505, es-1, all unsynched, and a tiny Behringer mixer. The latter is actually one of the top electronic musicians in France right now. His sets rock thousands every week. Just goes to show that it ain't all what you use.
More live sets!!!!!
Ape
Message 19/65 08-Mar-02 @ 05:17 PM - RE: Live techniques?
yeah, when the crowd gets in they tend to cause the treble end to drop a bit cos they are absorbing it with their clothes the room becomes less reverberant ... if the bassbins are low on the floor this can drop your definition on the lo-mids although your low bass tends to radiate the same. Heaven in London has a great setup for 'listening' cos the pa faces you & you are right up in the air above the crowd... it works cos the pa is all turbosound and 'flown' on scaffolds above the crowd facing angled down to the floor. Bit harsh tho those turbosound boxes I find
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 20/65 08-Mar-02 @ 10:42 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Ayup, it's the highs and mid-lows that tend to get buggered as the room fills... Best I've been able to do aside from having spotters is just to tune my mixes for my "baby PA" (using the little Mackie SRM450s and the SRS1500 sub), and that generally gets me in the ballpark fairly easy... It's still not as nice as having a real sound person... I've thought of adding a sound tech as a permanent part of my crew, but so many of the venues I play just simply aren't set up to do that.... Guess I'll have to wait until I can afford the whole PA rig and I'm showing up to shows in tractor-trailer rigs....Hmmm, sometime around 2050 at my current rate of savings....=)
I also gotta say it's much nicer when I've had the rare occasion to literally play from the middle of the dancefloor. That is sweet. You can hear so much better, you "feel" everything, and you're right in the midst of all the energy. Usually, I'm playing from a DJ booth type setup, or worse, I'm tucked into a little corner, where I get to do my set while "swimming" the standing waves.... (..."wot's that? Not enuff bass? Yer nuts... all I hear is bass...")
Pongoid - I've taken out my TC Finalizer to a couple of gigs, and it does a nice job of handling my master compression needs. I dunna really like dragging it about though. I think you'd be pretty pleased with one of the 1120s. Most usually my "non-playing" bits I bring along consist of a little Mackie CFX12, Lexicon MPX100, Presonus ACP88 for compression, and BBE462 Maximizer. Occasionally I'll bring along the Kaos Pad or the AirFX to have some other toys to play with... also, there's generally always this old screeching distortion pedal from Boss, have no idea what it is, as someone ground all the paint and labels off with a sander (I paid $8.00 for it)... ugly, no battery cap (so I have to tape it in), and most horrible to hear, but it do add some very special flavor to basses and leads....
Peace
I also gotta say it's much nicer when I've had the rare occasion to literally play from the middle of the dancefloor. That is sweet. You can hear so much better, you "feel" everything, and you're right in the midst of all the energy. Usually, I'm playing from a DJ booth type setup, or worse, I'm tucked into a little corner, where I get to do my set while "swimming" the standing waves.... (..."wot's that? Not enuff bass? Yer nuts... all I hear is bass...")
Pongoid - I've taken out my TC Finalizer to a couple of gigs, and it does a nice job of handling my master compression needs. I dunna really like dragging it about though. I think you'd be pretty pleased with one of the 1120s. Most usually my "non-playing" bits I bring along consist of a little Mackie CFX12, Lexicon MPX100, Presonus ACP88 for compression, and BBE462 Maximizer. Occasionally I'll bring along the Kaos Pad or the AirFX to have some other toys to play with... also, there's generally always this old screeching distortion pedal from Boss, have no idea what it is, as someone ground all the paint and labels off with a sander (I paid $8.00 for it)... ugly, no battery cap (so I have to tape it in), and most horrible to hear, but it do add some very special flavor to basses and leads....
Peace
Message 21/65 10-Mar-02 @ 11:03 AM - RE: Live techniques?
"does anyone have any interesting/original ways of keeping the audience amused besides the wall to wall screens chemi/underworld style"
how about making the music as tight as it can be? Personally that would satisfy ME plenty
Pongoid..dammit..that armchair warrior shit just pisses me off. Partly because it hits me right in the gut..and for two reasons..ONE...I know youre right in a way. its not THAT hard to get up and do it, but ALSO because I just havent found my route to doing it yet, and...it bums me out.
its cool to hear about you guys workin this shit. Ever since I started doing this (hell, pongoid remembers) I have wanted to go out live..and...being surrounded by folks who are always talking about "production"...it is very difficult for me to fathom being able to still sound good live. the PAs I have heard are usually WAY quieter than DJ sets...I think maybe the sound guy is worried about peaks?
SO...was wondering..is running a main buss compressor a good idea then? Maybe a limiter too? So you can say...'look...dont worry about your system...I have it covered'? is that legit? I have an RNC that I thought would work well, but thats not a full peak stop...so...
also...my plan of attack will be to have every bit sounding as good as it can comin OFF of recordings...so I take little bits and pieces and sorta just see what happens...live remix style I guess? but I figure if I get everything sounding as tight as it can individually then it will be solid when put together
one thing to learn from this. OVERTHINKING shit just doesnt get you anywhere. Without hands on experience its just spinnin tires
how about making the music as tight as it can be? Personally that would satisfy ME plenty
Pongoid..dammit..that armchair warrior shit just pisses me off. Partly because it hits me right in the gut..and for two reasons..ONE...I know youre right in a way. its not THAT hard to get up and do it, but ALSO because I just havent found my route to doing it yet, and...it bums me out.
its cool to hear about you guys workin this shit. Ever since I started doing this (hell, pongoid remembers
) I have wanted to go out live..and...being surrounded by folks who are always talking about "production"...it is very difficult for me to fathom being able to still sound good live. the PAs I have heard are usually WAY quieter than DJ sets...I think maybe the sound guy is worried about peaks?SO...was wondering..is running a main buss compressor a good idea then? Maybe a limiter too? So you can say...'look...dont worry about your system...I have it covered'? is that legit? I have an RNC that I thought would work well, but thats not a full peak stop...so...
also...my plan of attack will be to have every bit sounding as good as it can comin OFF of recordings...so I take little bits and pieces and sorta just see what happens...live remix style I guess? but I figure if I get everything sounding as tight as it can individually then it will be solid when put together
one thing to learn from this. OVERTHINKING shit just doesnt get you anywhere. Without hands on experience its just spinnin tires
Message 22/65 10-Mar-02 @ 12:37 PM - RE: Live techniques?
My friend Egrus is going to be playing live this month I think. Pongoid you met him. He was with me in that bar across the street from the Park on Mayday last year. He and I were going to do some stuff together but we just never did. We still talk about getting together, but that's as far as it goes. I'm targeting playing live someday for sure and wish I could offer something from experience doing dance sets
Here's an idea. A break in the middle of a track...you know the power of silence at the right moment. Face to the mic and tell the one about the snail that buys a stock car, paints an "S" for snail on it, and in his first race leaves the rest of the pack in the dust. That's when the Nascar track announcer, overcome with excitement, yells "Wow! Look at that s-car-go!".
And then bring the music back in.
I'll grab my hat.
Here's an idea. A break in the middle of a track...you know the power of silence at the right moment. Face to the mic and tell the one about the snail that buys a stock car, paints an "S" for snail on it, and in his first race leaves the rest of the pack in the dust. That's when the Nascar track announcer, overcome with excitement, yells "Wow! Look at that s-car-go!".
And then bring the music back in.
I'll grab my hat.
Message 24/65 10-Mar-02 @ 08:48 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Influx - Brother, you are oh so right about overthinking this shit. It serves no real purpose save to make you cynical, methinks....=) Thinking over stuff does let you come up with different ways of doing things, but you gotta try 'em out to see if they work, hence, it still comes down to doing it... If you ever get out to the East Coast... well, you know the offer is always there...=)
'S funny too, how the sound people generally are afraid of the live PAs driving their gear too hard... Especially since I rarely "redline" my bits the way I see so many DJs do... and no, it rarely makes a difference to tell 'em that you've got the limiting sorted on your end... least that's been my experience....
Sitar - playing live is definitely worth trying. I've tried playing DJ sets, and while I have fun, I simply do not have the same kind of energy that I do when I run a live PA set... 'S worth the trouble, even if you only do it once and decide it ain't for you... If you ever get up around the Boston area, let me know, as I'd love to hook up, talk some shop, maybe throw down and make a track or two...
Peace
'S funny too, how the sound people generally are afraid of the live PAs driving their gear too hard... Especially since I rarely "redline" my bits the way I see so many DJs do... and no, it rarely makes a difference to tell 'em that you've got the limiting sorted on your end... least that's been my experience....
Sitar - playing live is definitely worth trying. I've tried playing DJ sets, and while I have fun, I simply do not have the same kind of energy that I do when I run a live PA set... 'S worth the trouble, even if you only do it once and decide it ain't for you... If you ever get up around the Boston area, let me know, as I'd love to hook up, talk some shop, maybe throw down and make a track or two...
Peace
Message 25/65 10-Mar-02 @ 10:10 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Yea that'd be great Mindspawn. Same for you if you be comin down to nyc. And Influx, if you ever get to the east coast, don't forget about nyc when planning your tour.
Message 26/65 11-Mar-02 @ 02:08 PM - RE: Live techniques?
fluxie,
I think you've run into bad soundmen. I've done it too. Yes, a good compressor on the ass end really helps. I use an RNC now, in Super-Nice for the final, and tell the guy to crank it. If he doesn't, I'll literally stop the set and say 'hey! asshole sound guy, these folks here want to hear this set. They paid to hear, not just see it.' I see the redline thing constantly. Hell, I saw a guy over here Saturday night that was so ass-headed about his mixing, every time he brought up a channel on his 1402, he'd slam it to the stop hard enough that he'd have to put his mixer back in it's place every ten seconds his he wa about to push it off the top of his rack and onto the stage. He had everything shoved into some european comp, probably a Behringer, and when his kicks came in, that was all you heard in the mix. Just squashed everythig right out. Saddest part was that the crowd loved it. Just goes to show you that most in the crowd don't understand shit about music here. That wouldn't even fly in the states. I'm afraid for what these folks might think when I play sometimes.
Sitar, please wish Egrus good luck on my behalf. Yes, you really should get out there too.
Spawn, looks like I'll be back on that side of the pond in May. Paths to cross? Who knows. Was fun just chatting last time, maybe jam this one. Any other decent gigs happening in Beantown clubwise short of Landsdowne toilets, or Mass Ave in Cambridge? Maybe it merits my attention again?
Other: Get out there!!!!
Ape
I think you've run into bad soundmen. I've done it too. Yes, a good compressor on the ass end really helps. I use an RNC now, in Super-Nice for the final, and tell the guy to crank it. If he doesn't, I'll literally stop the set and say 'hey! asshole sound guy, these folks here want to hear this set. They paid to hear, not just see it.' I see the redline thing constantly. Hell, I saw a guy over here Saturday night that was so ass-headed about his mixing, every time he brought up a channel on his 1402, he'd slam it to the stop hard enough that he'd have to put his mixer back in it's place every ten seconds his he wa about to push it off the top of his rack and onto the stage. He had everything shoved into some european comp, probably a Behringer, and when his kicks came in, that was all you heard in the mix. Just squashed everythig right out. Saddest part was that the crowd loved it. Just goes to show you that most in the crowd don't understand shit about music here. That wouldn't even fly in the states. I'm afraid for what these folks might think when I play sometimes.
Sitar, please wish Egrus good luck on my behalf. Yes, you really should get out there too.
Spawn, looks like I'll be back on that side of the pond in May. Paths to cross? Who knows. Was fun just chatting last time, maybe jam this one. Any other decent gigs happening in Beantown clubwise short of Landsdowne toilets, or Mass Ave in Cambridge? Maybe it merits my attention again?
Other: Get out there!!!!
Ape
Message 27/65 11-Mar-02 @ 11:26 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Pongoid - nope, not much has changed here. Landsdowne still sucks, I actually haven't been down there for something like three years now... No rush to go back either... You get the occasional good night up at Phoenix Landing, or Hibernia, or on rare occasion the Roxy... Best shows I've seen of late have been either in places like club58 in Quincy or venues like the AS220 in Providence.... So, I dunna think you been missin' much... There's some cool HipHop stuff happening here and there, an' that seems to be the latest "big thing" round here... There's a Dark Ambient/Experiemntal show down in Providence sometime this month... Outside of that it's pretty grim as usual...
If you're gonna be up this way in May, give a shout... I'm sure we could sort something devious and fun to do...
Peace
If you're gonna be up this way in May, give a shout... I'm sure we could sort something devious and fun to do...
Peace
Message 28/65 17-Mar-02 @ 03:02 PM - RE: Live techniques?
So that's it. It's just us doing the live thing, huh? Come on kiddies, stop being wankers and armchair warriors, critics, fuckwads, idiots, shit factories, and otherwise useless locutors, and GET THE FUCK OUT THERE AND MAKE THEM ALL DANCE!!!!!!! DO IT!!! That's why this site is here. That is really the only common ground for any of us, the desire to make others dance typically through the use electronic instruments and compositions. All of this technical jargon and bullshit means absolutely fuck all nothing null zero nought if it is not presented for other people to dance to in one form or another. It's all just useless words and some electronic code. I'd like to think that K's efforts, as well as my own, and some others here amount to more than that, so get up, get on your feet. Get out there and deliver the message you have, whatever that message my be, or darken the doorstep no further with your wanna-be asses.
Ape
Ape
Message 29/65 17-Mar-02 @ 04:33 PM - RE: Live techniques?
And still somehow I don't think you and Brett would see eye to eye. I'll be setting up right near you someday.
I'll be setting up right near you someday.
Message 31/65 18-Mar-02 @ 01:54 AM - RE: Live techniques?
Jeez. Is there something in the atmosphere today?
Message 32/65 18-Mar-02 @ 10:51 AM - RE: Live techniques?
Nice one spawn... useful info...
I can sympathise with the live call...
Once I was playing out live, hammering away on my JP-8000 when this punter came right up to the front, leaned over and asked if I could play "ya know what is what? that Fatboy slim song?"... er..
I juz think if u do it live, u really have to make and effort to come across live, which is why I'm thinken of intergrating live instrumentalists more, live vox, etc... Basement Jaxx do it best like this...
either way, still think nothing beats playing out live... I dj also and it just doesnt compare to the appreciation of people enjoying music u've composed...
As for the sound issue, that's another prob all together... I read an review recently of a "live" gig Jody from Way Out West did that I was at... they mentioned how brilliantly he played "live" and the sound quality he achieved... blah... the guy pressed play on his dat machine(s), sat on the mixer, smiled, played with some eq and levels and that was it... argh... and then I wonder why people confuse playing live with DJ'ing...
I can sympathise with the live call...
Once I was playing out live, hammering away on my JP-8000 when this punter came right up to the front, leaned over and asked if I could play "ya know what is what? that Fatboy slim song?"... er..
I juz think if u do it live, u really have to make and effort to come across live, which is why I'm thinken of intergrating live instrumentalists more, live vox, etc... Basement Jaxx do it best like this...
either way, still think nothing beats playing out live... I dj also and it just doesnt compare to the appreciation of people enjoying music u've composed...
As for the sound issue, that's another prob all together... I read an review recently of a "live" gig Jody from Way Out West did that I was at... they mentioned how brilliantly he played "live" and the sound quality he achieved... blah... the guy pressed play on his dat machine(s), sat on the mixer, smiled, played with some eq and levels and that was it... argh... and then I wonder why people confuse playing live with DJ'ing...
Message 33/65 18-Mar-02 @ 03:56 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Sounds lke Chemical Brothers or The Orb. Sellout weaklings. I'm sure you can do better, at least I hope so.
Ape
Ape
Message 34/65 18-Mar-02 @ 07:11 PM - RE: Live techniques?
marianimal
Posts: 448
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Hm, no one has pointed out that the theory forum is an odd place for this thread. But I'm curious about what people think of live vocals in dance music. Personally, I like them best when they're either kind of minimal, maybe little chopped up samples, or a really good r&b singer or an M.C. jAswho has this singer Chris Anthony who's really good, he doesn't even have to use words. One really nice thing for people using vocal samples rather than live is no worries about mic feedback problems in clubs that are typically set up for djs. I also get the impression that people dance less when someone is singing verses and choruses and all that, live. They feel they have to stand there and watch the singing, or something. It's better when they hear the music, dance, and then at some point when it no longer matters they realize the vocals are live, and keep dancing. What are people's thoughts/experiences with this? And is it just Influx or do many people really hate vocals in electronic dance music? :=)
Message 35/65 19-Mar-02 @ 12:23 AM - RE: Live techniques?
hehe. I think its just me
I dont hate em. Just dont like them all that much. Although there is a T-Power track on Long Time Dead that I like a lot. Dont know the name tho.
the other ones SUCK.
my deal is this:
vocals = pre-set ideas/feelings/thoughts being presented, so the listener feels those feelings...its like being told what to do
no vocals (typical electronic stuff) = totally free from preset form; listener is influenced only by the sounds themselves. No thoughts are "introduced" only triggered.
this isn't a very good way to put the way I see it but I thought I would try
and yeah..this is an odd forum for this thread...I think it would get a lot more hits in the tech thread, no?
I dont hate em. Just dont like them all that much. Although there is a T-Power track on Long Time Dead that I like a lot. Dont know the name tho.
the other ones SUCK.
my deal is this:
vocals = pre-set ideas/feelings/thoughts being presented, so the listener feels those feelings...its like being told what to do
no vocals (typical electronic stuff) = totally free from preset form; listener is influenced only by the sounds themselves. No thoughts are "introduced" only triggered.
this isn't a very good way to put the way I see it but I thought I would try
and yeah..this is an odd forum for this thread...I think it would get a lot more hits in the tech thread, no?
Message 36/65 19-Mar-02 @ 03:19 AM - RE: Live techniques?
My fs1r does vocals. Kind of a catch 22. What am I doing with that thing???
Message 37/65 19-Mar-02 @ 06:59 AM - RE: Live techniques?
marianimal
Posts: 448
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Actually Influx, that explanation makes a lot of sense.
Message 38/65 19-Mar-02 @ 08:06 AM - RE: Live techniques?
wow. I made sense? arf.
actually..I re-read what I typed and that pretty much sums it up. That's not to say, of course, that I HATE LYRICS. The beauty of lyricism is that the singer/writer/whoever IS expressing for us feelings and thoughts, etc., that we havent been able to express for ourselves (at all or just not as effectively)
so...when our favorite lyricist/writer drops his or her unique take on the human condition, those of us who might not be so gifted can say THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALLOWING ME TO IDENTIFY THESE EMOTIONS and express them through your words!
THIS is the beauty of the lyricist/writer. vicariousness.
I enjoy both of course, but the pure unadulterated FEELING of music without lyrics appeals to me more often lately. I think a lot of it has to do with the absolute FLOOD of the music market in the last say 50 years? Seems like 99% of songs are about LOVE or some other such simplistic nonsense, and I for one am tired of hearing about it
Rarely anymore do (modern) songs mean much to me, but the pure joy I get from a dope beat or growling bassline or gorgeous arrangement of all the elements is something I can never get enough of.
actually..I re-read what I typed and that pretty much sums it up. That's not to say, of course, that I HATE LYRICS. The beauty of lyricism is that the singer/writer/whoever IS expressing for us feelings and thoughts, etc., that we havent been able to express for ourselves (at all or just not as effectively)
so...when our favorite lyricist/writer drops his or her unique take on the human condition, those of us who might not be so gifted can say THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALLOWING ME TO IDENTIFY THESE EMOTIONS and express them through your words!
THIS is the beauty of the lyricist/writer. vicariousness.
I enjoy both of course, but the pure unadulterated FEELING of music without lyrics appeals to me more often lately. I think a lot of it has to do with the absolute FLOOD of the music market in the last say 50 years? Seems like 99% of songs are about LOVE or some other such simplistic nonsense, and I for one am tired of hearing about it
Rarely anymore do (modern) songs mean much to me, but the pure joy I get from a dope beat or growling bassline or gorgeous arrangement of all the elements is something I can never get enough of.
Message 39/65 19-Mar-02 @ 09:22 AM - RE: Live techniques?
[image file]
i find it interesting that you say that, influx,
becuase i know how much you like to read. is
there a distinction between lyrics and the
literature you like? (besides crappy love
songs) i must say that i agree with you though
about vocals. don't really care for them myself
anymore.
just wanted to open up the conversation.
Message 40/65 19-Mar-02 @ 09:47 AM - RE: Live techniques?
a distinction? You mean...why do I like reading so much but not vocal music?
well...I DO like vocal music...just not so much new stuff. And I don't often read new books, either. I mean..kerouac..again..SPEAKS FOR ME. He puts on paper so many of my thoughts and feelings, almost exactly as I think and feel them! It's a bit alarming sometimes. Uncanny, I guess...
so..if thats what you mean..I dunno.. I mean..a writer certainly tells a story with DIRECTION in mind. he/she sorta controls your reaction in a way, but...I dunno...it SEEMS that less pap gets to print as opposed to all the shit that goes into music. Again, I dont read "pop" books so I dont know. Im sure its quite the same
well...I DO like vocal music...just not so much new stuff. And I don't often read new books, either. I mean..kerouac..again..SPEAKS FOR ME. He puts on paper so many of my thoughts and feelings, almost exactly as I think and feel them! It's a bit alarming sometimes. Uncanny, I guess...
so..if thats what you mean..I dunno.. I mean..a writer certainly tells a story with DIRECTION in mind. he/she sorta controls your reaction in a way, but...I dunno...it SEEMS that less pap gets to print as opposed to all the shit that goes into music. Again, I dont read "pop" books so I dont know. Im sure its quite the same
Message 41/65 19-Mar-02 @ 05:32 PM - RE: Live techniques?
I view them as another instrument, or tool for exprression, and if they belong somewhere, be it word, noises, beatbox, singing, whatever, then it goes in. If it's about something other than words, then you use whatever you need to to express the feeling you are trying to convey. I love live vox, well don, personally. Marianimal kicks ass live. Wish I could sing. Another guy to keep an ey out for is Kid Lucky. He's done vocals with cats like Ornette Coleman. Serious head stuff.
Ape
Ape
Message 42/65 19-Mar-02 @ 06:37 PM - RE: Live techniques?
and I DID intend to drop a disclaimer:
so far, what I have heard of Duo Electro, marianimal sounds quite good thank you
pongoid brought something up..I DO like vocal samples..cuts, edits, whatever...then it stays in the realm of "fringe" music...
I just..one thing that irks me is that MANY of the producers I have really dug in the past all end up doing vocal tracks
and the interviews are all the same:
"I wanted to broaden my musical horizons..."
SO YOU GO *BACK* TO CONVENTIONAL METHODS? what..you think that because you threw some fucking cliche'd lyrics over the top of your watered down beats you are PROGRESSING?
fuck off with that shit. its called "MY RECORD LABEL WANTED TO GET A BETTER SECTION OF THE TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC TO BUY THEIR RECORD SO WE TRIED THE CROSSOVER ROUTE"
FUCK YOU with that shit
so far, what I have heard of Duo Electro, marianimal sounds quite good thank you
pongoid brought something up..I DO like vocal samples..cuts, edits, whatever...then it stays in the realm of "fringe" music...
I just..one thing that irks me is that MANY of the producers I have really dug in the past all end up doing vocal tracks
and the interviews are all the same:
"I wanted to broaden my musical horizons..."
SO YOU GO *BACK* TO CONVENTIONAL METHODS? what..you think that because you threw some fucking cliche'd lyrics over the top of your watered down beats you are PROGRESSING?
fuck off with that shit. its called "MY RECORD LABEL WANTED TO GET A BETTER SECTION OF THE TARGET DEMOGRAPHIC TO BUY THEIR RECORD SO WE TRIED THE CROSSOVER ROUTE"
FUCK YOU with that shit
Message 43/65 19-Mar-02 @ 06:44 PM - RE: Live techniques?
marianimal
Posts: 448
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Aw, shucks. Well I have a very good teacher, Rita Sahai, who's helped me a lot over the past year.
For me the distinction between lyrics and literature is usually that lyrics suggest or poetically represent something, tending to work more in the subconscious, which is affected by symbols and suggestions; while literature is more straightforwardly expressive of the idea, and works more in the conscious mind. Of course plenty of things blur those distinctions. There's some very poetic literature, like Faulkner, and certainly a writer's ideas can work their way into your subconscious. And some lyrics are really straightforward while being poetic at the same time, like Lynton Kwesi Johnson's. Then there's epic poetry, wherever that fits in. I'm not sure I would want to dance while listening to Beowulf. Maybe though, if the bass was decent.
For me the distinction between lyrics and literature is usually that lyrics suggest or poetically represent something, tending to work more in the subconscious, which is affected by symbols and suggestions; while literature is more straightforwardly expressive of the idea, and works more in the conscious mind. Of course plenty of things blur those distinctions. There's some very poetic literature, like Faulkner, and certainly a writer's ideas can work their way into your subconscious. And some lyrics are really straightforward while being poetic at the same time, like Lynton Kwesi Johnson's. Then there's epic poetry, wherever that fits in. I'm not sure I would want to dance while listening to Beowulf. Maybe though, if the bass was decent.
Message 44/65 19-Mar-02 @ 08:53 PM - RE: Live techniques?
[image file]
thought a little morre about this last night...
lyrics tend to be a little more vague then say a
book or novel. in about five minutes someone
is trying to express an idea or story as
opposed to over 200 pages. that said, i think
the job of a lyricist is more difficult to express a
meaningful thought in such a short time. and
then when you factor in having to repeat parts
(chorus in some cases) it's even less time.
i guess that's what makes a good lyricist to
me. someone who can express a new idea
and sound good doing it.
Message 45/65 19-Mar-02 @ 10:51 PM - RE: Live techniques?
To be honest, I rarely understand lyrics in a song. Well some pop maybe and then I'm sorry I did. But growing up listening to the radio or cds I'd understand maybe 50% of what was being sung. I love the vocals I've heard by Underworld and Orbital. Underworld especially. The first track on "Everything, Everything", the vocal is phenomenal. It totally makes that track. There is something very moody and intoxicating about their vocals. Still, I hardly understand a word of it. One song of theirs I had no idea what was being said in a repeated phrase until I picked up a remix of it and the phrase was the title. I was like, Doh! that's what he's saying. Or Orbital and their "Philosophy?...Tech-technology." The women who sing on their cds is great As much as I liked The Crystal Method's "Vegas", I never cared for the female vocals. A little too stylish "trying to be sexy" for my taste.
When I'm writing music I often feel like I want the human voice in there somewhere...spoken, a conversation, sampled and mangled, something. I enjoy music without vocals though.
When I'm writing music I often feel like I want the human voice in there somewhere...spoken, a conversation, sampled and mangled, something. I enjoy music without vocals though.
Message 46/65 20-Mar-02 @ 12:17 AM - RE: Live techniques?
Well live vox and the feedback issue are really a pain, more so when you don't have a sound guy to tweak the EQ and so on....
Personally, I enjoy working with live musos of any sort. It can be a bit more hassle to sort out details, but it's a lot of fun to do. I've went out with as many as five performers in my crew. I've done shows with live vox, guitar, synths, drums/percussion, etc., and aside from technical details and lots of extra practice, it was worth doing..... Main thing, as with any live performance, is practice, practice, practice. You sort out the likely causes of feedback, timing, etc., and you make adjustements. Thank the darkness for feedback eliminators....=)
As for vox in trax, I'm basically with Pongoid. Vocals are another instrument. In my world, the track is god, egos mean nada to me. Thus, if "god" wants a vox, "god" gets a vox. If "god" doesn't want a vox, "god" doesn't get a vox. I certainly don't think having a vox in a track "adulters" the music in any way. Vox was probably the first instrument after all...
That said, I tend to enjoy "vocalizations" more than lyrics (and for me vocalizations can include lyrics done in a language I don't understand....). I'm quite fond of what Sheila Chandra does for instance. Very talented instrument, she is...
I do understand your take, Influx, but methinks it has more to do with the ratio of crap to the ratio of innovation. Good vox, lyrical or not, adds to a track in the same way a good synthline does. Least that's my perception.
I've been wanting to put together a tight crew to do live stuff for a long time. Just can't seem to find people who have the necessary amount of commitment and talent. I'd like to have a crew that knows enuff about the various pieces of kit that we could switch back and forth with who is doing what. Like the keys player hopping on a set of congas, or a guitarist playing keys or sampler, or a vocalist that tweaks a synth, etc., etc. Twould be fun for the players and methinks the crowd would dig it too.
And a final note about the "stand and watch" types at shows where you have live players: It's been me experience that if the groove is on, they'll stand and watch for a bit, but the if you're using the right mojo, it's inevitable, the bodies begin to move, the deed goes down, and the set is over before you realize....
Peace All
Personally, I enjoy working with live musos of any sort. It can be a bit more hassle to sort out details, but it's a lot of fun to do. I've went out with as many as five performers in my crew. I've done shows with live vox, guitar, synths, drums/percussion, etc., and aside from technical details and lots of extra practice, it was worth doing..... Main thing, as with any live performance, is practice, practice, practice. You sort out the likely causes of feedback, timing, etc., and you make adjustements. Thank the darkness for feedback eliminators....=)
As for vox in trax, I'm basically with Pongoid. Vocals are another instrument. In my world, the track is god, egos mean nada to me. Thus, if "god" wants a vox, "god" gets a vox. If "god" doesn't want a vox, "god" doesn't get a vox. I certainly don't think having a vox in a track "adulters" the music in any way. Vox was probably the first instrument after all...
That said, I tend to enjoy "vocalizations" more than lyrics (and for me vocalizations can include lyrics done in a language I don't understand....). I'm quite fond of what Sheila Chandra does for instance. Very talented instrument, she is...
I do understand your take, Influx, but methinks it has more to do with the ratio of crap to the ratio of innovation. Good vox, lyrical or not, adds to a track in the same way a good synthline does. Least that's my perception.
I've been wanting to put together a tight crew to do live stuff for a long time. Just can't seem to find people who have the necessary amount of commitment and talent. I'd like to have a crew that knows enuff about the various pieces of kit that we could switch back and forth with who is doing what. Like the keys player hopping on a set of congas, or a guitarist playing keys or sampler, or a vocalist that tweaks a synth, etc., etc. Twould be fun for the players and methinks the crowd would dig it too.
And a final note about the "stand and watch" types at shows where you have live players: It's been me experience that if the groove is on, they'll stand and watch for a bit, but the if you're using the right mojo, it's inevitable, the bodies begin to move, the deed goes down, and the set is over before you realize....
Peace All
Message 47/65 20-Mar-02 @ 01:48 AM - RE: Live techniques?
As much as we used to break eachothers' chops, I loved playing live with other musicians in the past life of my namesake. Now I enjoy the "friendships I'm developing with my synths. We break eachothers' chops too. If you've ever listened to Indian classical music, (I know you have Marianimal), you know it normally picks up speed and development until it peaks at the end at breakneck speed. One excellent tabla player I with compared it to the relationship of a couple that always ends in a ferocious argument. I guess that reflected his relationships maybe. I said I thought the music was like making love and the end was climaxing. I told him that's why whenever we finish we go out and have a cigarette. We had a good laugh over that. Anyway I'm a little out of the realm of music here but that was most of my live experience. I love dance music and I love my synths now. There's nothing like it. The sitar is a sound person's nightmare btw. So many overtones going from the sympathetic strings. But they all loved it nonetheless. I think it was the challenge. You have to show up being prepared to tell them what to do during soundchecks.
Message 48/65 20-Mar-02 @ 03:04 AM - RE: Live techniques?
marianimal
Posts: 448
Link?: No link
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That's really cool y'all are using live instrumentalists. Collision Course aka the Drum Machine Museum had a young trumpet player with them last time I saw them, and she really added something special that drum machines just don't do.
Message 49/65 20-Mar-02 @ 03:24 AM - RE: Live techniques?
I'm just realizing something. I'm sitting here listening to a Jeff Mills track I picked up. Some cool stuff. I sit with my gear and write things piecemeal. Start with one part or another and go from there. The few times I've sat with my gear and actually just played it's been a gas. Should power up the gear, get a groove going, do whatever comes naturally at this point and record on the fly. Sort it out later. Will take my analytical mind out of it, get me familiar with the ins and outs of using my rig live, and be even more fun. I'm hearing Jeff Mills' bringing stuff in and out and you naturally do that when playing. Rather than recording something and then wondering if I should do this or that with it when and where in the track. Doh!
Message 51/65 20-Mar-02 @ 04:40 AM - RE: Live techniques?
Sounds like fun... Hey Sitar, life experience IS music, so you were on topic earlier. Methinks a lot o' folk occasionally forget (mesef included) that living life is where music lives too. Doing music without living life is just a job... Never want to think of it like that. But yeah, IMHO any talk about life experience is valid in a forum on music theory....
marianimal - methinks we're watching change... more and more people doing music are either "born into" the electronic era or they're adjusting. Hence, electronic and acoustic musos are blurring traditional lines that used to separate them. I come from a bluegrass background, obviously all acoustic, then to rock, metal, and eventually electronic.... kind of a progression, so I have no issues with having a mixed bag of acoustic and electronic bits... I just wish more venues knew how to handle live acts properly. Still, you just keep hammerin,' one nail at a time.
Peace
marianimal - methinks we're watching change... more and more people doing music are either "born into" the electronic era or they're adjusting. Hence, electronic and acoustic musos are blurring traditional lines that used to separate them. I come from a bluegrass background, obviously all acoustic, then to rock, metal, and eventually electronic.... kind of a progression, so I have no issues with having a mixed bag of acoustic and electronic bits... I just wish more venues knew how to handle live acts properly. Still, you just keep hammerin,' one nail at a time.
Peace
Message 52/65 20-Mar-02 @ 06:51 AM - RE: Live techniques?
marianimal
Posts: 448
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Thanks, I can relate to that, hammer & nails. & the need for the right mojo (or vévé, as long as we're using voodoo here). It's good we can mutate but still relate to the old ways from time to time. It all comes out of African music anyway, right, to varying degrees?
Sitar, that's a good point about writing a track as if it were already a live situation. They often seem to flow better that way, becoming full without being cluttered.
Sitar, that's a good point about writing a track as if it were already a live situation. They often seem to flow better that way, becoming full without being cluttered.
Message 53/65 20-Mar-02 @ 12:17 PM - RE: Live techniques?
With rare exception, all of the tracks I've recorded for the last six years that I call my own have been performed live, one take (usually) when recording, with very minimal editions afterwards, even the stuff that folks thought sounded 'too studio for me'. I've done it other ways as well, although usually in sessions with others. Laying down trax for multi-track systems, making and exporting .WAVs, arranging in a sequencing program then rendering, etc., but my favorite stuff still has the 'human touch'.
Shit I really miss playing Jazz, but it just doesn't pay, or move the crowd the same way. I'm hoping that interfaces will improve shortly, and facilitate better integration of live interaction with the gear. Knobs, buttons and sliders are cute and all, but man o man, if I could really play the music I've got crawling around in my head for you folks.... I guess that's it, though; trying to do the impossible, and all of these expressions are just rough approximations of the feelings we are really trying to express (maybe not all of us). Whatever tools one needs to express, do it.
Spawn, I feel you are part right about the track thing. I find that I start as master and end as servant, and it's certainly the sounds that tell me where they go. There's an old saying that goes something like 'For the Novice, the paths are limitless, for the Master, they are but few.' I'm no Master as of yet, but I certainly see the logic therein.
Sitar,
Do what feels good.
Kick ass, people. Let's keep this live thing alive, and se if we can't push things forward a little more.
Ape
Shit I really miss playing Jazz, but it just doesn't pay, or move the crowd the same way. I'm hoping that interfaces will improve shortly, and facilitate better integration of live interaction with the gear. Knobs, buttons and sliders are cute and all, but man o man, if I could really play the music I've got crawling around in my head for you folks.... I guess that's it, though; trying to do the impossible, and all of these expressions are just rough approximations of the feelings we are really trying to express (maybe not all of us). Whatever tools one needs to express, do it.
Spawn, I feel you are part right about the track thing. I find that I start as master and end as servant, and it's certainly the sounds that tell me where they go. There's an old saying that goes something like 'For the Novice, the paths are limitless, for the Master, they are but few.' I'm no Master as of yet, but I certainly see the logic therein.
Sitar,
Do what feels good.
Kick ass, people. Let's keep this live thing alive, and se if we can't push things forward a little more.
Ape
Message 54/65 20-Mar-02 @ 12:50 PM - RE: Live techniques?
I can feel writing this way is gonna open up some floodgates for me, flowing better as you point out Marianimal. I've learned quite a bit about my gear now. Mindspawn, yea life and human touch are the things that make music beautiful. I forgot you used to play jazz Pongoid. All I can say is that I absolutely loved seeing you throwin the beats down. I need another fix though. Yours was the first cd I picked up from a DTer too. Mindspawn, yours was the second.
Yours was the first cd I picked up from a DTer too. Mindspawn, yours was the second.
Message 55/65 20-Mar-02 @ 01:13 PM - RE: Live techniques?
I'll see waht I can manage. NY is getting to be a bit overdue for a visit. Paris has got its claws pretty well dug in, but maybe I can sneak over there some time this summer.
Ape
Got a gig for me?
;)
Ape
Got a gig for me?
;)
Message 57/65 27-Mar-02 @ 02:12 AM - RE: Live techniques?
wow. sorry i missed this one.
i am currently putting together a set using a RM1X, a sampler, an EA1, an ES1, and a multi FX unit going into a 16 channel mixer and through a compressor then out to the mains.
what i have been doing is sequencing 8-16 bar loops in the RM1X that trigger the samples and occasionally the internal sounds on the RM. i use the RM mutes and the mutes on my mixer to build and setup breakdowns and such. i also have this synced up with the korgs to mix in and out with.
i will be mixing it up a lot tempo and style wise.
around here (phoenix AZ) there aren't a lot (any that i know of) of people doing this sort of thing. also i come from a more guitar, bass, drums, background so i am not sure people will know what to make of it.
the gigs i have lined up are in places more accustomed to the standard song-based sets.
it will be interesting to see how all of this goes over.
anyway, this site has been indispensable in helping me figure out how all the parts fit together and i just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed.
i am currently putting together a set using a RM1X, a sampler, an EA1, an ES1, and a multi FX unit going into a 16 channel mixer and through a compressor then out to the mains.
what i have been doing is sequencing 8-16 bar loops in the RM1X that trigger the samples and occasionally the internal sounds on the RM. i use the RM mutes and the mutes on my mixer to build and setup breakdowns and such. i also have this synced up with the korgs to mix in and out with.
i will be mixing it up a lot tempo and style wise.
around here (phoenix AZ) there aren't a lot (any that i know of) of people doing this sort of thing. also i come from a more guitar, bass, drums, background so i am not sure people will know what to make of it.
the gigs i have lined up are in places more accustomed to the standard song-based sets.
it will be interesting to see how all of this goes over.
anyway, this site has been indispensable in helping me figure out how all the parts fit together and i just wanted to say thanks to everyone who has contributed.
Message 58/65 27-Mar-02 @ 10:27 PM - RE: Live techniques?
well here's a place to start (sure there are a dozen like it) contact promoters for gigs.. i tracked down several of the artists and they have pretty varied material, so i'm thinking if you're fairly electronic, you'll blend. get a gig, do a show, it's a party. if you give me a ride, i'll do a set.
Message 59/65 28-Mar-02 @ 05:36 PM - RE: Live techniques?
I did that for too long. I find word of mouth from friends and associates works wonders over press packets and faxes.
Ape
Ape
Message 60/65 28-Mar-02 @ 07:34 PM - RE: Live techniques?
thanks for the link.
actually, the guys that run the club i work at now are opening up a larger venue next month. they were doing larger shows (700-1500 capacity) outside in the parking lot, but the overhead is too much. mostly "alternative" rock kind of stuff but they have had shows like the chemical bros.,hip hop, and bluegrass stuff (not all at once).
anyway, with this new place i am going to try talk them into putting on some shows geared more towards the electronic-dj-dance-vibe so maybe in a few months...
and you could all crash at my house
actually, the guys that run the club i work at now are opening up a larger venue next month. they were doing larger shows (700-1500 capacity) outside in the parking lot, but the overhead is too much. mostly "alternative" rock kind of stuff but they have had shows like the chemical bros.,hip hop, and bluegrass stuff (not all at once).
anyway, with this new place i am going to try talk them into putting on some shows geared more towards the electronic-dj-dance-vibe so maybe in a few months...
and you could all crash at my house
Message 61/65 28-Mar-02 @ 09:09 PM - RE: Live techniques?
i might fix my car in the next year or two.
naah.
naah.
Message 62/65 29-Mar-02 @ 12:38 PM - RE: Live techniques?
We'll see what the future holds. Thanks for the hedz up.
Ape
Ape
Message 63/65 29-Mar-02 @ 08:31 PM - RE: Live techniques?
Word of mouth is the surest way. I got AT&T commercials by word of mouth. Even if something opens up in another way and you play a dynamite set, it's still the people you connect with that are going to recommend you for something else or not.
Message 65/65 31-Mar-02 @ 01:26 PM - RE: Live techniques?
And I don't like that other thread being at the top of the forum. Just rubs me wrong.
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