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Subject: rs7000 beauty or beast?


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Original Message 1/16             08-Apr-02  @  02:58 PM   -   rs7000 beauty or beast?

formant

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ok so i have had it for several months now. upon getting all excited reading this forum i decided to dump some tracks in.

my current way of working is do it all in sonar, then dump the loops into the RS and beatslice them to get tempo independence.

so i take a song with about 6 drum parts and 6 instrument parts and slice em all into tracks.

the rs7000 has a serious limitation in that you can't switch between tracks (if you are using the internal sampler & efx) without a *way* out of time jump inbetween.

anyway because of this i put all my parts on section A and just mute and unmute to do the track live.

in fiddling around last night here were my major complaints:

1. muting / unmuting really lacks timing accuacy of jumping from section to section. but when you jump from section to section its like you already have your structure set and theres not much way to change it.

2. these dang knobs jump!!! i knew it was there but now its driving me crazy... you run a filter down on one part then jump to the next to run the filter and it jumps to the last setting. its completely unusable unless you are superman and can remember where everything was sitting in the first place and happen to have the track muted...

3. i am finding myself doing the exact same kind of song structures i did when on the computer but in a live setting. i have so far been unable to come up with any moments of glory or whatever because my samples are fixed, all i can do is filter them. i suppose once i write some tracks with the nord playing live that could get more interesting but i only have so many hands and its enough just to keep the mutes, unmutes going.

so any advice here?

should i start using the sections instead of the mutes so i don't have to worry about breakdowns and buildups but i have free hands to tweak the nord etc?

should i buy native instruments kontakt and bring a computer out with me and use the RS to sequence that as a sampler? (this fixes the gap between tracks and the knob jumping)

or should i just sell the RS and continue to just dj my own tracks as i have been doing...

its not that i didn't expect to run into obsticles, its just that if my live show adds no benefit over my statically recorded material then i am not sure why i am attempting it

jamey



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Message 2/16             08-Apr-02  @  06:29 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

Maarten

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I have no experience what so ever with the RS7000 but want to mention the following which *might* help with the knob problem: if it's filters etc you've programmed you might want to do this in a seperate track than where the notes sit. i.e. Using two tracks for the same MIDI channel, maybe sequencers give a priority to notes rather than cc's and if their both on the same spot you could hear a delay in the filter bringing forth the jumpy headache.

Hope this helps.



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Message 3/16             08-Apr-02  @  06:53 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

horizens

Posts: 720

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[image file]


the knobs are the same as the a3k series and
those were a pain in the ass. they would jump
too. optical.



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Message 4/16             08-Apr-02  @  06:55 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

horizens

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[image file]


"the rs7000 has a serious limitation in that you
can't switch between tracks (if you are using
the internal sampler & efx) without a *way* out
of time jump inbetween."

so, is this audible when you switch or you
mean it takes awhile?



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Message 5/16             08-Apr-02  @  07:15 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

formant

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while it only takes a half second, the result is an audible burp. this is because the sampler has to change all its samples and the efx units have to change patches etc.

end result is annoying.

jamey



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Message 6/16             08-Apr-02  @  07:31 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

horizens

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[image file]


okay, so it's between songs, not "tracks"



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Message 7/16             08-Apr-02  @  08:16 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

influx

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right.

dunno. havent gotten that far...



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Message 8/16             08-Apr-02  @  08:55 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

99devils

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I usually use a one-shot sample or something similar to cover that up, but that's with an RM1X and external hardware sampler, not an all in one like the RS.. This method might not work for you.

On the other hand, you could always get one of those videocassete sized SU samplers or a Boss Dr. Sample just for throwing shit in between your tracks.. Probably not the answer you wanted to hear but I bet you could score one of those boxes for $100 or less.

-Craig



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Message 9/16             08-Apr-02  @  10:43 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

Mindspawn

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First off, not trying to sound snobbish, but it'd help if you use "Yammy speak" when you describe stuff on the RS. What you're referring to as a "burp' between tracks, that'd probably be a burp when switching "styles." I only say this to make sure I'm understanding you correctly... Yammy, as most manufacturers, have their own terminology and definitions thereof... Anyway, I suspect you're talking about switching betwixt styles... If you're actually having trouble switching between sections (which are part of a style), then it sounds like some other issue...

Anyway, a couple of things to note: The RS is more of a studio machine than a live box. Some of the way it operates just doesn't lend itself well to live use. I've taken mine out a few times now, but I have a feeling I'll go back to my 505 or similar for live control...

The sampler in the RS is not exactly a full-featured sampler. It definitely ain't no A series sampler... More similar to the SU700 really... I digress...

Sections work better than trying to do "multi-finger mutes," least for me, but I actually use the Mute and Scene Memory buttons to do a lot of the bits. You can "work a breakdown or whatnot" by doing some creative mute/scene work...

Adding even a small sampler to your RS setup lets you cover any potential "switching" moments, however, I really find that to be horseshit as you shouldn't have to worry about "covering up" Yammy's poor implementation on switching between styles and so on... There are certainly workarounds, like putting all your Program Changes and voice edit changes into the Phrases themselves as opposed to letting it get sorted via the Phrase Header info... However, as Yamaha has stated on some of the forums, their intention is a "studio box" with live "capability." Well it's "capable" but it certainly ain't the smoothest flowing MF I've ever used....

As to whether or not to sell it, that's your call obviously, but if you're wanting a spontaneous type of live set, there's better machines. The RS is a very linear inclined machine. Not to say you can't work in a non-linear fashion, it's just designed with linear in mind...

and your comment: "its just that if my live show adds no benefit over my statically recorded material then i am not sure why i am attempting it."..... welcome to the party.=) First off, when you say "benefit" whose benefit are you referring to? If you're really saying, "just hitting play on the sequencer and doing a few tweaks over the top is unsatisfying," well you've come to the right place.... Actually, that's the sort of thing that needs it's own thread....

All in all, the RS is a powerful machine. In my opinion, it ain't the best live box, but it ain't the worst, either. It's a complex mother, and it'll take some "quality time" spent with the machine to really sort it for live, but it can be done. Whether or not you want to devote that much time to the RS is something you'll have to decide based on your wants for the way you'd prefer to do a live set.... honestly, I'd say it's best suited (for live use) to folks who want to pretty much perform in a linear fashion, i.e., as a "playback" device with some extra bells and whistles thrown in for variation.... it "can" work in a more non-linear fashion, but it'll take more prep work to get your bits setup proper....

Peace



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Message 10/16             09-Apr-02  @  03:48 AM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

formant

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yes sorry, i was referring to "styles" which is a dumb name so i purposely forgot it :-)

well played around with it another afternoon...

i was thinking another cool path... when speaking of 6pack (in reaktor) it gave me the idea to do this:

load up say 6-8 different kick loops on part 1

load up 6-8 different snares on part 4

etc etc

then lets assume at least for the drums part of the show the kicks, snares, hats etc are all interchangable

then as i jump thru songs, i literally just turn the track up or down by a note and get the next or previous loop, allowing me to jam on different beats and breaks all night...

if i did this with kontakt (virtually unlimited ram and instant on the fly time stretching) then it would be pretty fun from a beats angle.

plus i wouldn't have any gaps between songs as the midi part of the rs does rock solid when triggering other parts.

basslines and such off the nord could be triggered live off the rs as well without interruption.

also kontakt is smart enough to latch the filter knob movements etc...

its not wrong to use the rs as a $1000 control surface is it? :-) well theres the sequencer too :-)

i like the idea of flying stuff in and out as far as the drums go... it could work well for basses and leads if i was clever and wrote the stuff in the same keys etc.

hmmmmm

jamey



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Message 11/16             09-Apr-02  @  03:53 AM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

formant

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oooo fun ideas:

kontakt has up to 128 layers based on velocity... imagine triggering a loop off kontakt (with 128 stacked breaks or whatever) and then running the velocity knob around thru your layers :-)

kontakt has up to 8 loop points with definable repeats etc... that means in the sample memory of a 2 bar loop (1 full on, 1 breakdown) i could hold the key have it play thru 8 bars to a mini breakdown then continue playing thru to the full breakdown at the last bar 16 :-) all tempo independent of course.

cool thing about the RS is i can map all of the stuff in kontakt right to the front panel and work just as if i was working the rs sampler itself...

the stupid product isn't even shipping yet and already i have gear lust... oh well!

jamey



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Message 12/16             09-Apr-02  @  03:54 AM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

influx

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but jamey..you can change phrases within a style, too, so those same 5 or so kick patterns, snare patterns, hihat patterns, whatever, could all be done in the RS too, no?



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Message 13/16             09-Apr-02  @  04:05 AM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

formant

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yes thats very true, but i am doing almost all of my production work in sonar and then moving it over.... loop based is much easier for me.

i can mess up sounds in ways unthinkable on the computer versus rs by itself.

i suppose i could chop up the stuff on the computer and make drum kits instead of doing it in the rs7000....

but with loops you don't have to worry about midi... just leave the same midi loop playing with one key triggered but change the assigned loop for it.

am i just being lazy? probably. but time is my worst enemy with this music stuff.

gonna go play on it some more.

jamey



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Message 14/16             09-Apr-02  @  05:17 AM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

influx

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yeah..youre right...

I definitely want to make the sounds as much as I can in the computer, and then go from there...and dont want them tempo locked either (which is the one advantage of the RS over the other sampler/sequencers)

so..mindspawn...if the RS aint "IT" then..what IS...in your eyes?



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Message 15/16             09-Apr-02  @  12:36 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

Mindspawn

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Haven't ever found it yet, herr Influx... I'd love to have something that's a combination of say the 505s pattern call function, the RS's sequencer, the ARP from either the 505 or the EMU XL7, and a "live" step sequencer like the SEQ303 s/w... since I'm building a dream machine, it'd have a combination of analog, FM, and digital, a three octave set of keys, a couple ribbon controllers, two mod wheels, a pitch wheel, and a couple of Dimension Beams (the full deal Dimension Beams, not the little D-Beams from Roland).... just for starters...=)

About the RS, I didna mean to sound harsh about it. It's definitely capable of being used live... I've done it myself... I just like to bitch and moan I s'pose....

Formant - I hate Yammy's terminolgy, too. I dunno why they can't just make a "standard" so to speak... Anyhoos, if you're gonna be working with sections like you say, you could set the RS so that the "update TG" is set to off, then you could also change styles all night long without a single burp... Especially since you're talking about using loops, you could set up like you were describing, using the key shift to change up your sounds every so often, and you could also do the same thing for your individual drum hits. You might still have to drop in the occasional Program Change for some bits, but it'd still work fairly smoothly in any case, methinks...

Peace



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Message 16/16             09-Apr-02  @  02:27 PM   -   RE: rs7000 beauty or beast?

formant

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ok played some more last night and here is what i will do for friday (dj gig)

put the rs with 1 song loaded (takin it slow) and mix from the dj gear into my song and back out. subtile with no rockstar shenanigans.

baby steps.

last night i got > < this close to "creating" on the fly with the RS but it involved using the filters to create a new soundscape. def my fav thing on this RS is the 1-8 9-16 and ALL knob controls... so you can filter out all the drums then run the bass volume down etc etc. it made the song much more fluid.

i actually forgot i was 'doing it live' and was simply jamming on the fly for a brief brief moment or two.

i need more of those moments to fuel my passion :-)

oh btw i did a test last night and as i suspected the midi 1-8 9-16 dealie transmits midi so you could do filter sweeps etc with an external sampler as well.

jamey



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