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Subject: hardware or software sampling!?

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Original Message 1/30 06-May-02 @ 12:18 AM - hardware or software sampling!?

campati

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in the discussion about soft vs hard everybody talks about how good/bad softsynths can emulate analogue synths. but what about sampling?? I actually feel more for hardware because i just like to push real little buttons and i find such a piece of equipment just cool so i am thinking buying a sampler as my first instrument(and probaly the only one cause i want to make samplebased funky house...). But now i am afraid that i'm going to waste a lot of many because you can do pretty much the same on a very simple pc... whats the opinion of experienced users of soft/hardware samplers?? thanks for the help!

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Message 2/30 06-May-02 @ 12:38 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

influx

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I use a hardware sampler but have to say that if I was just getting started I would spend my money on a good softsampler like Halion or EXS or whatever

its cheaper, more storage, less room, etc.

depends on how comfortable you are with your PC.

I have to say that Im starting to notice the stuff that is done ALL internally. People need to start paying more attention to getting 'sound' out of stuff instead of the sometimes a bit too clinical sound of all digital.

not trying to start an analog VS digital argument, but I would say maybe a good tube box to run stuff through (or hell..even some good plugins will work for the most part probably)

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Message 3/30 06-May-02 @ 05:49 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

damballah

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i'd sure rather drag a rack with an akai or emu or yamaha (etc) thingee in it to a gig than some damn computer. also actually playing things and working the mixing board is part of my schtick. if your schtick doesn't include that sorta shit, do whatever makes you feel most creative.

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Message 4/30 06-May-02 @ 07:13 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

influx

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dude. how many people actually ever "play out", eh?

dance music is mostly studio stuff. mostly, I say. Of course there are standouts, but..

it just always surprises me about the underlying" but what if I want to play live" theme...when hardly anyone ever actually does it.

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Message 5/30 06-May-02 @ 08:43 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

campati

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well i for myself wont do gigs ,thats for sure, i can use a lot of practice first.. thanks for the help i think im going to stick with the hardware cause i am not really a computerfreak...

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Message 6/30 06-May-02 @ 09:38 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

bedwyr

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the timing is better with software. try layering a few kicks with midi and see what you get.

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Message 7/30 06-May-02 @ 10:01 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

influx

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well...the best combo is..if you dig hardware..use it to make your sounds, and then sequence the audio if you can get a good system up and running.

takes some learning but the benefits are just too numerous to mention.

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Message 8/30 06-May-02 @ 03:54 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

knowa

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if you're gonna use a computer to sequence, you might as well try a softsamp at first. IMO they're a lot simpler than h/w. I never had a computer in my life until about 2-3 years ago, and it didn't take me long to get comfortable with cubase and battery, though I still ask dumb questions here at times (see synth thread).

honestly, though, since I now have a day job which usually involves sitting on front of a computer all day, I really appreciate h/w in a way that I didn't before. I guess it doesen't bother some people, but I wanna play, not program. even though a computer is most cost-effective, it might be wise to think about how it will fit into your overall lifestyle. either way, it's gonna be mad fun to filter sweep thouse disco samples ;)

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Message 9/30 06-May-02 @ 07:55 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

toast

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I still think hardware is a bit more stable than a computer for live usage. Its not that I play live but I dont trust my computer in critical situations. I do trust my hardware. As far as routing a softsampler through a mixer, you just need a soundcard with multiple outputs. You can get more outputs on a computer than you ever could with an output expander for a sampler. Most modern samplers are just computers anyway so there's little difference between hard and soft sonically. There's slight differences between converters but that's one of those endless discusions that are pointless to get into. A few samplers like the kurzweils and the higher end emu's can do some stuff on the synthesis end that their software counterparts cant but that seems to be changing with stuff like kontact coming out. The main advantage of softsamplers to me is the speed. I have almost instant access to my entire sample library within a couple clicks. After years of dicking about with floppies that's like wow!

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Message 10/30 07-May-02 @ 01:38 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

Pongoid

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I use an a3000 with a big assed hard drive inside, and I'm so glad when I gig, because I've never ahd that thing crash short of a power failure, and I can't say that for most comps. I'm gigging, so it's different. In the studio, it depends on the situation. For jamming, it's the sampler. If I have the console and tools, it's still the sampler. If the studio's all software, then that's what I'm using. Each situation's different and each demands specific attention to what's going to work best then.

Ape

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Message 11/30 07-May-02 @ 04:44 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

influx

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right but the question was about getting a NEW setup going...

so..campati..thing is...since you say youre not really proficient with PCs, then...hardware is probably the best bet (maybe pick up an atari 1040 for midi?)

but...a good PC setup will just piss all over a hardware setup (assuming the PC is a solid one that doesnt crash) when you start comparing numbers

altho..shit..with the price of HW samplers dropping (I just picked up an E4k for a SICK low number) you can easily go that route and still stay in budget.

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Message 12/30 07-May-02 @ 03:57 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

damballah

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well, I'd been dealing with a dying EPS for a while (and I paid like $2100 for it new way back when, so stop bitchin' all you spoiled little...). part of the way of dealing with it had been to use soft samplers and pasting audio clips directly in the sequencer, but eventually realized I had to get a chunk o' hardware, even with the advantages of keepin' it all in the 'puter. well, sequencing a soft smapler from a Q80 seems a bit bass-ackwads, too. maybe I'm just an old-timer getting too set in my ways, sonny, and need to get fitted for some depends.

true, you can pick up some second-hand hw for plasma-donation cash these days. what's NI wanting for Kontakt? US$399! You can getcha a nice chunk o' hw for than that. and resell it later if you wanna.

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Message 13/30 07-May-02 @ 07:01 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

Lava

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what's NI wanting for Kontakt? US$399! You can getcha a nice chunk o' hw for than that. and resell it later if you wanna.

Funny how you have that angle on it... my view is that Kontakt is amazingly inexpensive for what it does, and is a good investment. I mean, what kind of sampling hardware are you going to get that even comes close for $399?

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Message 14/30 07-May-02 @ 08:18 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

influx

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ahhh dont start.

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Message 15/30 07-May-02 @ 09:59 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

99devils

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I'm still on hardware, but I'm gigging as well.

Now that I'm thinking about it though, I wish I'd have gotten an RS7000 and sold the RM1X instead of getting the S6000. I think I'd rather be using software in the studio and then using something like the RS to pull it off live.

Maybe I'm just sick of lugging a second rack to fit the fucking thing in

-Craig

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Message 16/30 08-May-02 @ 03:02 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

Brett

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when I started computers were not fast enough for what I was trying to do. It's really been that way until the few past years. If I went back, I would have just bought that Trinity all loaded. You can't deny that a loaded triton gives you a great palete for creating music with loops, digital pcm, and analog modeling. Then when your good, you just gig it.
Plus you focus on writing instead of mixing, and then can always take it to a studio and let some mixer go down to adat with your tracks and mix it through some nice high end tubes. Late night studio time is cheap around here.

You learn more about mixing from being in a studio and watching, then experimenting with hit and miss in the bedroom. If I could, I would have done it that way instead of always downloading plug-ins and playing with new software all the time.

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Message 17/30 08-May-02 @ 03:40 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

knowa

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I hear the "focus on writing not mixing" thing. know some cats who made better stuff with an MC-303 than after they got they're computers because they're all obsessed with plug-ins.

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Message 18/30 13-May-02 @ 06:36 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

errata

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I've been using the same A3000 since '98... it's NEVER given me the slightest hassle! I would never take a computer on stage (I've seen too many prblems with that!)... Because of this I can't stand SW samplers (just too long on the racks I suppose). If I were starting out new, I'd probably go software though. It's cheaper, and more (technicaly) powerful. I would look at HW samplers down the road if I decided to play live.

I've played live for a long time and I see more and more people bringing PC's out. They're unreliable, and it's difficult to play a LIVE set with just one... (but that's for the "live" thread elsewhere on the site)...

errata

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Message 19/30 22-May-02 @ 06:09 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

Bastiaan (Hajee)

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I just *love* inking lights on my a4k...I will never get rid of it. Still, when I bought it (2 years) software sampling was about to start making it's breakthrough...and then the prices started dropping like bombs on hannover during 1944 and I felt realy bad over that investment.

Anyway, like someone else said before the LESS equipment I had the more creative and productive I was. With all those softsynths and so forth all I seem to be doing is trying out yet another plugin... you don't have those issues with hardware. Sometimes the Most fun I have is me just turning on the mc303 and the an1x an jamming with just those 2 tools. Nothing else.

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Message 20/30 25-May-02 @ 10:03 AM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

Purusha

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The new Emu software sampler will be interesting since it'll also act as a front-end to the Ultra hardware. So - you potentially get the best of both worlds.

I use an e5000 - it's behaved itself admirably on stage so far.

Chris

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Message 21/30 25-May-02 @ 11:56 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

toast

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Nah, the emulator soft looks really underwhelming. One filter?!

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Message 22/30 26-May-02 @ 03:58 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

damballah

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shame, software of some of that z-plane shit would murda, it'd even be great as a fx plug-in. c'mon emu, deliver the goods.

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Message 23/30 26-May-02 @ 05:36 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

milan

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i think z-plane filters need a special type of chip to run. or so it says on the emu website. would be nice though.

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Message 24/30 26-May-02 @ 06:53 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

damballah

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they might in their smaplers and maybe saying so preserves a market for their hardware, but I'm not so sure that some clever soul couldn't code a variety of morphing filter algorithms that would work on AMD or Intel or Motorola processors. or maybe stick something on a card like those UAD things. they'd probably want used E5000 prices for one though.

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Message 25/30 26-May-02 @ 08:14 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

toast

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There's a free z-plane emulation for reaktor. I dont use reaktor so no comment but it does seem possible.

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Message 26/30 26-May-02 @ 08:15 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

toast

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The link got truncated.

http://www.dashsynthesis.com/index.php?category=&platform=Reaktor&order=name&ID=emuzplane#

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Message 27/30 27-May-02 @ 02:53 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

milan

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well there you go...

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Message 28/30 27-May-02 @ 05:14 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

realtrance

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Back to campati's question:

I'd say, you need to ask yourself a few questions first.

1. When you're on a PC, can you concentrate on doing one thing at a time, in detail, for hours on end? If you're easily distracted by, "oh... wait... let me go see if I can download an update... hey, wait, remember there's that other plug-in, now if I just twiddle with that for a sec..no..." and so on, go for an A3000 or A4000, they're dirt cheap right now and all you'd really need to get started.

2. Are you interested in making your own, original, interesting sounds, or in emulating the ultimate piano/guitar/woodwinds etc.? If the latter, get a PC -- you can have multi-samples that are gigabytes large, impossible on a hardware sample. If the former, either will do. You'll have more variety and flexibility on the PC, but you might find that overwhelming and frustrating at first, unless you're good at self discipline (cf. point 1.).

3. Patience issues: a) most hardware samplers have long load times. Not really a problem if you're not under pressure, but seriously a problem if you have to wait a half hour every time you turn on your sampler to load up and be ready to go, and you only have an hour to play with. b) PCs load fast, esp. if you're getting current-generation technology, but you'll have to spend some time making sure you get the right hw/OS setup, to minimize latency and maximize sound quality. Not a serious problem but make sure you're getting decent audio quality hw on your PC to complement any software you're thinking about. c) connections -- one of the most regularly frustrating things is getting stuff to and from hw sampler to PC. Think about whether you're going to want to do that, and how. It's real easy to do some ways, a total pain in the butt if you're trying to work with hw sampler and PC hooked together to transfer audio data. OTOH a PC running sequencer against a HW sampler is an extremely good combination, if set up correctly. If you're starting out, though, save the connectivity issues for later, they'll be another hurdle to overcome at some point.

Ultimately, I'd recommend starting out as simply as possible, so you have the chance to both feel and think your way to your own working style. Once you've had some time to understand what you really like doing, the way you like working most, you'll have a better sense as to whether the next step should be to go for all-out PC focus or all-out hw focus. Both get expensive quickly, if you're not careful; neither are really ultimately cheaper than the other, despite the apparent "it's only $399 of software" appeal of the PC.

Hope that helps, campati!

rt

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Message 29/30 27-May-02 @ 07:57 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

Brett

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emu filters are based on the F chip developed way back in the EIII. There was a big article in Keyboard about the emu life line over the years. And how there founder was developing their own proprietary chips along the way. Maybe it's the G chip and the F is the next one they are working on. Can't remember. Great article though. I 'll find out what issue it was in. Remeber they are now Creative, so development has much more money behind it now and a sharing of technology.

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Message 30/30 28-May-02 @ 02:36 PM - RE: hardware or software sampling!?

nomad

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it's actually the H chip, developed for the emax II (which has one of these chips). the morpheus has 4!

i'm guessing they have newer designs now.

there's nothing really special mathematically about z-plane synthesis, if you ever took DSP then you would see that z-plane conversion is a pretty standard way to talk about filters in a generic way... they just made the hardware to do it. i don't really like the sound of their filters, but one thing working in the z-plane does do is makes it very easy to have 'hybrid' filters (if filter X has one z configuration, and filter Y has a different z configuration, they are just numbers, so the hybrid is just somewhere in the middle, incidentally there are reports of some prototype morpheus-es around that had RAM for the filter definition area, and you could create your own... they took it out of the production version and made it rom because it was too easy to design filters that would physically damage your speakers!), and also morphing between filter types is also easy for the same reason.

i'm sure they did more than just implement the mathematics and put some effort into the sound too of course.

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