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Subject: Trance dilemma

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Original Message 1/40 14-May-02 @ 09:26 PM - Trance dilemma

proximus

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Hello..

I have question about trance..

I've always put my snare\clap on the 1. and 3. kick when I make trance.. while everybody uses the 2. and 4. kick.. someone said it sounded weird with clap on 1. and 3. kick.. but is it really wrong to do it? c'mon, it's four on the floor beat.. of course I understand that in other genres it would be wrong.. i.e. start with a snare in a drum n'bass beat..

Is it *legal* to put the snare\clap on the 1. and 3. kick in trance you think? Does it REALLY matter?

Ok, unless if it's mixed a dj mixed.. cos then you'd have a snare\clap on every kick.. that is understandable, but still.. is it such a big problem.. it is 4 on the floor..

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Message 2/40 14-May-02 @ 09:39 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

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Uh... Of course it's LEGAL...

To me putting them close to the second and forth beat seems more natural, tho. Perhaps because that's what most people do ?

I'd say that if your stuff sound good, don't worry about it.

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Message 3/40 14-May-02 @ 09:50 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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well put.

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Message 4/40 14-May-02 @ 11:57 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

Zink

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So, what you're saying is:

Which beat for trance?

B'waaarrr!

People always usually put it on the 2 and 4th, but you should experiment with putting it on the 1st and 3rd. Why? When people hear it mixed into another track, they will assume it's 2nd and 4th and, boy will they be surprised when new elements kick-in a beat earlier than they anticipate. Kinda keeps things from going stale - Suprise!

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Message 5/40 15-May-02 @ 12:07 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

damballah

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don't be breakin no rules of trance otherwise how will we know it's trance if it doesn't sound exactly the same as all the other trance.

oh that 1 and 3 thing, we'll let you off this time with a warning.

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Message 6/40 15-May-02 @ 12:11 AM Edit: 15-May-02 | 12:16 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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Which beat for trance? yes..

The dj might be scared of your 'radical'.. hehe.. tracks and may not play them.

:-)

Trance is too hung up in rules.. you can't do that and you can't do that.. snarerolls are not nice either, they are standard. I try not to use them.

Trance is like an old fashioned poem with strict rules in what you can do, while there are other kinds of music which is more free to the author to evolve and break minor boundaries. The latter one can be compared to those modern poems only few understand. Unfortunately most people like old fashioned poems..

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Message 7/40 15-May-02 @ 12:22 AM Edit: 15-May-02 | 12:23 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

Zink

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Most of what people are calling Trance isn't Trance anyway. Back when I were a lad, there was Straight Trance, like Union Jack, Goa Trance Like Tip and Dragonfly stuff and then Eurotrance, which was the Cheesy melodic stuff (Gigi Agostino comes to mind here) and then Acid Trance. This was the early nineties. Then commercial handbaggy House turned into kinda arpeggiated vocal trance and ruined everything.

I think the global underground CD's are modern Trance (I like to think so, anyway) but I guess they are 'Dubby House' or something. Maybe prog house? Whatever, it's all Techno, innit?

Anyway.

What was the question again? Yeah, keep DJ's on their toes. Swapping the 2/4 to 1/3 wouldn't make it any harder to mix anyway.

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Message 8/40 15-May-02 @ 12:27 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

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anything goes if it works rhthymicaly, plus there is nuff freestyling drums over trance too.

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Message 9/40 15-May-02 @ 06:44 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

knowa

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trance rules!

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Message 10/40 15-May-02 @ 07:34 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

damballah

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it really does

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Message 11/40 15-May-02 @ 07:43 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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do I sense sarcasm in the air?

I like trance.. but not all.. it needs attitude and style..

Don't like that take off trance with those crazy snarerolls and kickrolls.. they are suited for the club and not for the HIFI..

and that chillout music is just beatiful..

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Message 12/40 16-May-02 @ 07:59 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

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I like the kind of trance that has a melody (or musical ideas) that it's possible to remember after listening. Maybe that's not trance ?

Some dude was into what he called "Goa trance" or something like that. It was quite complex, and interesting in that sense, but after about half an hour of listening to it I couldn't remember a single thing from it.

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Message 13/40 16-May-02 @ 10:32 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

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that's how it should be

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 14/40 17-May-02 @ 02:42 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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if you can't remember a simple thing of it how do you know it's good then?

It's like when you're drunk and you don't remember anythign from the night.. how do vyou know you had a great night?

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Message 15/40 17-May-02 @ 09:23 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

xoxos

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try and recreate the instance on the subsequent night?

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Message 16/40 17-May-02 @ 12:31 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

Maarten

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The fact you don't remember should be enough, if it sucked donkey-balls you'd remember, no?

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Message 17/40 17-May-02 @ 03:41 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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true

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Message 18/40 17-May-02 @ 03:53 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

frostbyte

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well, if you don't wake up with bruises and a couple teeth missing, you had a good night

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Message 19/40 17-May-02 @ 04:50 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

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I don't see the problem here - I can remember lots of times I felt good without being able to pinpoint exactly why.

Same thing with some of the good trance I hear, I think it's well made while I'm listening to it but when I stop listening it's all gone (except the memory of thinking it was well made).

And I'm saying that my preference is music I'm able to remember.

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Message 20/40 17-May-02 @ 04:57 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

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I'll throw in an example, too.

I listened a lot to a CD from the "In trance we trust" series. It's the one with DJ Misjah (Misja Helsloot or something like that). Excellent mixes, excellent melodies (even tho Braveheart seemed a bit overexposed at the time) and lots of stuff that was easily remembered.

I suspect he had a lot of success with his CDs at the time. A couple of years later, I buy one of his new CDs. All the stuff is very advanced, very well made and completely impossible to remember (except possibly from a few fragments here and there).

Whether or not his development is a good thing is certainly up to him and others to decide. But it does not really seem like progress to me (according to my taste, that is).

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Message 21/40 17-May-02 @ 05:03 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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lol! frostbyte

Dj Misja Helsloot ITWT1, I love that cd.. it's my all time favourite trance cd.

Ok I see your point now.. and I think I agree with you.

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Message 22/40 17-May-02 @ 06:22 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

boo_meister

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John lennon said that that if he wrote some music at night, went to bed, slept on it, and woke up the next day with the tune going through his head, it was a keeper. If he couldn't remember it, it was back to the drawing board.

I don't think something needs melody to be memorable, just a good, solid groove. A few 'hooks' don't go amiss, either. Hooks are kinda cheesy if they're placed in there as obvious 'hooks', though.

But remember, in the context of a DJ set, a load of 'big' 'memorable' tunes together get kind of dull - makes a set flat. A set needs ups and downs or ups and ups to make it work. I used to refer to bland tracks as 'fillers', but now I come to realise that they have an important role to play. But then again, we're not making music for DJ's. I like Daddies sauce and Nik Naks. I couldn't stand Scampi Fries. I don't like fish, plus the commercial annoyed me. What was the thread about again?

Bah.

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Message 23/40 17-May-02 @ 06:25 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

boo_meister

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Is Misja that Misjah blokey that did the huge acid track 'Access' with Tim??

Loved that track. Really liked his XMIX cd, too.

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Message 24/40 17-May-02 @ 09:05 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

formant

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as a dj of any genre, for gods sake DONT put your snares on the 1 and 3.... its absurd and sounds dumb...

or if you do put them on the 1 and 3, make them soft in volume and put louder ones on the 2 and 4...

if you don't care about djs then dont listen to me... theres no difference in 1/3 2/4 anyway its the same pattern so most djs would try and mix it as if it were 2/4 and then things would come in at the wrong time... yuck

jamey

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Message 25/40 17-May-02 @ 09:19 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

milan

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well if its the same pattern then it doesnt matter, does it?

i�ve been known to mix some tracks like that on purpose. give you a nice tchak-tchak pattern for a while. then you cut it out again.

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Message 26/40 17-May-02 @ 10:10 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

dru

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I like to purposefully mix stuff in at the 'wrong' time, like Zink said. If you do it with some finesse- it has a very dynamic way of switching up the rythm. When you finally pull the first track out of the mix- your perception of the accented beats of the second track immediately flips around and dazzles the unsuspecting.
I love playing records that breakdown and then drop right in on a different beat.. it really only affects the transition (if you transition at that point)- and then after a few seconds you hear it like the song was originally intended.

I think if your on top of your approach, you can make any variation sound proper within the context of your song. I never tried to make trance, but I betcha I could make a track with a clap inbetween 3 and 4 that would sound dope. Shit- you could throw the clap on the oddest most out-of-rythm spot and make it work by carefully placing your hihats and other sounds around it and adjusting the way it blends with the beats. Even if you did this sort of thing every 8 bars it would add some spice that a bland repetetively simple song might need.

I can't remember for the life of me how my latest track was sounding last night. And that's because the rythms and melodies are so dynamic and spontaneous it is hard to quickly identify its structure- although I had articulated its structure very particularly.

The idea makes me think of Indian music or something- where you have flutes that just go off and rythmic drums intermingling with alternation. The experience is phenominal- and the music is impressive- but very difficult to grasp any portion of the tune as characteristic of the song as a whole.

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Message 27/40 18-May-02 @ 08:34 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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dj Misja Helsloot and dj Misjah are two different dj's. Misjah is a well renoved acid producer and dj.. a bit harder than helsloot. Helsloot has released a couple of singles but I think he is more in to spinning trance.

I like tracks with a little twist.. "an oldschool beat with a nu school twist" as two well known brothers say.

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Message 28/40 19-May-02 @ 03:39 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

xoxos

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in my theory, putting the claps on the second beat is sexual.. we're dealing with a binary beat pattern that explodes on the second of a pair. emphasizing the first suggests an assertive asexual idiom.

cool

(don't bother, it's just my thing, and you can't get inside without a door.)

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Message 29/40 20-May-02 @ 12:07 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

chroma

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so its like...spurt and THEN stroke?

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Message 30/40 20-May-02 @ 01:20 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

Pongoid

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Prox,
First things first. I'll leave my insults, ridicule, and disdain for your taste in aesthetic to your imagination, apart from the fact that they are very bad, and you now have marks against you in my book, as far as respecting your musical intellect goes. You're obviously quite new to this, and probably writing patterns in something like Fruity Loops. What you are doing is not wrong, per se, if you stay in one pattern and don't move. However, if you switch patterns at all, you will notice the arrival and departure of sounds comes as kind of odd. The dynamics don't work out quite correctly, especially for DJs (not that one must just submit to DJs desires except if they want to make a living from their music). Trance is for people who are not funky. I hope that you grow beyond this aesthetic quickly. Don't fake the funk, feel the funk.

Ape

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Message 31/40 20-May-02 @ 01:43 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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hehe.. I'm not quite new to this you know, that's what makes it a bit embarrasing. I've been making music for 4 years or more..

Thanks for leaving the insults because that was not insulting at all. It's always nice to have marks against your musical intellect from someone that really knows you. Cheers!

But you see, my house tunes and my breakbeat related music have the snares right. It's just that I don't consider trance to be funky or groovy in the same way as i.e. house so I thought it really didn't matter where I put the snares.

You are talking about being an intellect and you are saying trance is for people who are not funky is using stereotypes. Personally, I do not only listen to one kind of music and I do respect other people's taste of music.

What do you mean by aesthetic when talking about my imagination?

Thanks for the support

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Message 32/40 20-May-02 @ 02:39 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

xoxos

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i have to side against pongoid here. i like the proximus stuff i've heard, i'm all for binary rhythms, mono-ary rhythms, whatever (hey who turned off that tape of a drum loop thru a distortion pedal that's been playing the same thing for 20 minutes? i was jsut getting into it..) i'm a mentalist as it's said and funk is optional.

for further insight into this debate i suggest listening to cloud 9's more 'jarring' tracks (ie. the ones with the snare, kick and crash on all fours plus a pick-up on every eighth eighth for like nine minutes) as i say, it's like standing under a 20,000 watt bulb but you can't deny the heart is there.

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Message 33/40 21-May-02 @ 12:05 AM Edit: 21-May-02 | 12:06 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

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Hmmmm...

I bought one CD with DJ Misjah and one with DJ Misja Helsloot because I liked that ITWT one so much.

It seems proximus is right, misjah is not the same guy as Misja H. Somebody ought to sue somebody...

At any rate, I listened to the whole DJ Misja Helsloot Creation Day One or whatever CD tonight. And what I said before is still true to me. It's well made, it's good driving music if you're going to drive for an hour or two, and it's impossible to remember afterwards.

BTW, one of the songs IS interesting, not because it's all that good but because it sounds like he's overdriving the 01v input gain for effect...

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Message 34/40 21-May-02 @ 12:48 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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what u wrote gb got me thinking.. what if there was a well established artist called for instance "Jon Smith" and your real name was Jon Smith. Do you then have the legal right to release stuff under the name "Jon Smith"?

A lot of artists use their real name you know.

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Message 35/40 22-May-02 @ 08:31 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

DjMik

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I always read threads that are old and throw in a comment after 100 posts.

Anyway.. I sort of know what you mean xoxos. I think it's ok to put a clap on the 1. and 3. kicks..only you need another way to get more energy on the 2. and 4. kicks. If the first kick explodes and the second one is softer the beat sounds weird. You need some kind of 'thump' or 'splash' or 'whoomp' or something on the 2. and 4. beat.. Anyway..it could be cool to make the beat sound like one kick "off" and then throw in something that turns the beat around. Humm...whatever.

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Message 36/40 22-May-02 @ 01:36 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

xoxos

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i suppose asexuality/primeness isn't good for dance

it has a 'splash!' feel, like diving into an i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-icee lake. in my own distorted mind i could see it working very nicely for a track in a club env. but only in contrast to other tracks (so maybe just even as a passage) where the rhythm pulls oyu one way, then the other, making you it's slave..

..it'd be like perfect for an accelerating tempo bit.

mebbe i'll igve it a shot too

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Message 37/40 22-May-02 @ 01:52 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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yeah.. a stunt

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Message 38/40 24-May-02 @ 02:46 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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Check this out:

"The forces of Chicane, Airwave & Coast2Coast-like sounds combine to produce this epic piece. I especially like how the snare sound comes in on the first beat out of every two throughout, as opposed to every second beat (unlike just about all dance tunes ever made) - it adds a weird effect to the groove and only makes it easier for you to be taken away in a trance-like state, rather than following the beat mindlessly. A highly established and great track!"

Now how about that you conservative "snare placers" :D :D :D

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Message 39/40 25-May-02 @ 02:54 AM - RE: Trance dilemma

xoxos

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sock it to 'em proximus! they got to learn

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Message 40/40 25-May-02 @ 01:36 PM - RE: Trance dilemma

proximus

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