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Subject: Virus Low End Good?

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Original Message 1/55 26-Jul-02 @ 10:12 AM - Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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I have a virus b but nothing to compare it to, hence my question.

I've been reading various stuff on the web about the Virus. People really praise the filters and talk about how good the Virus is for pads and leads.

However, they reckon that the bass making capabilities aren't that great. Apparently the bass patches lack a "certain warmth and low end" cos the Osc are only OK.

To be honest, as I've said, I've nothing to compare it to in depth. However, I can't seem to get that real thick housey bass sound with it. Probably just me though.

I've looked at a Pulse and SH101 and they sound cool. Am I over analysing again? :-)

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Message 2/55 26-Jul-02 @ 10:44 AM Edit: 26-Jul-02 | 10:45 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Maarten

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The SmoothBass & ResoBass patches (if those are the correct names....) go pretty low, you could try tweaking those further to see where it ends. I have the VirusB and the SH-101 and must say the Virus is not that far off from the SH.
Shortly played around with a Roland System 100 at my mates place- and goddamn, that is serious bass for ya! But at a harsh price.

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Message 3/55 26-Jul-02 @ 10:57 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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Yer Maarten, the Reso Bass patch (A45 I think) is the one patch I always use for bass. Just can't seem to get it to sound really thick. I'll keep trying though.

I think maybe I'm guilty of over compressing it. The Virus patches sound pretty compressed anyway so maybe I should using lower ratios.

Also, does anyone use the master tuning function? I know it goes up and down by 64(cents I think)and I've been experimenting.

What do you think of the pulse?

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Message 4/55 26-Jul-02 @ 02:17 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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The Virus is bassier than my Nord Lead, and it rocks the Cs1x. I don't have a real analog to compare it to though.

-Craig

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Message 5/55 26-Jul-02 @ 03:10 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

swanofnever

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hm..

i've always found that judicious use of "2nd filter->HP, crank resonance, turn cutoff down" works... sort of a para EQ. but that's kind of cheating...

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Message 6/55 26-Jul-02 @ 03:53 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

nothingnewhere

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if you are just wanting to make bass sounds, try to listen to a pulse in person before you buy anything...

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Message 7/55 26-Jul-02 @ 03:56 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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I have but can't decide.

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Message 8/55 26-Jul-02 @ 06:06 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

knowa

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I have both a virus and a pulse. I think they both sound great.

the pulse definitely has a typically analog midrange thickness that the virus cannot achieve.

the virus stays cleaner and goes deeper.

I have an old track that has them in call and response basslines and if you email me I will remember to post it this weekend (warning: it's kind of annoying). I think you'll know which is which immediately.

it's a preference thing, though. you can DEFINITELY get lots of good basses from a virus.

playing with my pulse and a friends sh-101 has led me to believe that if it's an analog sound you want, it's an analog synth you should get.

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Message 9/55 29-Jul-02 @ 02:23 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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So the general consensus is that the Pulse can make much better basses than my Virus?

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Message 10/55 29-Jul-02 @ 02:28 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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No!!! That's certainly NOT the consensus, not in my book.

Try using 12db filters with low resonance. Try using layering. Try using some of the digital waveforms. Layer in Sines or triangles.

Seriously: If you can't get a great bass out of a Virus, you're not going to get a great bass out of anything. Keep working at it!

-Craig

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Message 11/55 29-Jul-02 @ 03:02 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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I can get some okish bass sounds out of my virus for sure. But everyone I've spoken to has said that they use a virus for leads and pads and either a pulse or a novation A station for bass.

A virus just don't go that low apparently.

God I'm confused. ;-(

Ps I have used my ears but maybe me using the virus for bass is why I can't quite seem to get that thick bass sound I hear in all my favourire house producers records.

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Message 12/55 29-Jul-02 @ 03:30 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

j-type

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IMO the best bass starts with the oscillators. Just tuning a Pulse osc down low gives you good bass, try opening the filter fully, turning all modulations off and listening to the oscs in isolation. Then do the same with any VA and see what you think.

Bass is the foundation of a track, oscillators are the foundation of a bass tone (unless you're into self-osc res subs) so it's a good idea to use the best oscs you can. Despite its other strengths the Virus never struck me as being good in the osc dept, 'course you can use the Analog Boost to thicken the lows up and other stuff. The Virus can do good bass, but the Pulse can do killer bass. AND it can do it easily, just tune an osc low and you're away.

I also think the A/K-station have very good oscs, and the Waldorf Q series oscs are fantastic. A Micro-Q Lite would be a good alternative to the Pulse, have the bass piping out of one output and use the other 5 for god-knows-what

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Message 13/55 29-Jul-02 @ 03:55 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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Thanks guys. This is so useful. People have recommended me 3 units that they believe are the best for bass. They are:

Waldolf Pulse - �200

A Station - �200

Korg MS2000 -�400

Obviously the Korg is out of my price range so its between the Novation and the Pulse. I'm interested in the best sound and I think the Pulse pipps the post. Any last important points before I split with my hard earned?

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Message 14/55 29-Jul-02 @ 07:00 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

influx

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BULLSHIT!

virus does GREAT bass.

EVERY bass sound Ive made for the past 3 years was on the virus. some resampled, but still the virus.

and Ive heard my shit in clubs on large systems. BASS.

NOT the same as an analog, of course. Not saying analog is better or worse, just different.

honestly...I think you need to focus more on programming the virus, and less on worrying what other people say, and even LESS on thinking about buying new gear

Youve got a very powerful synth there...and it WILL go quite low...gut rumble low. Of this I am 100% positive, and the people that said it wont are HIGH.

have you tried the analog boost effect? Used sparingly that shit really warms stuff up.

and the sub osc? or...have osc 2 tuned 12semis below osc one with sync OFF?

dude...I dont know, but...I think you need to get into it a little further

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Message 15/55 29-Jul-02 @ 07:29 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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Your probably right Influx, I do need to get into programming a little more maybe. The thing is though, I've tried. For Pads and leads its perfect.

However, for the bass end I'm finding it hard to coax a real thick housey bass out of it. Our styles are different and maybe the virus suits your breaks style better.

I've tried de-tuning, chorus, phasing, layering, etc. To me, its kinda cool in the real deep bottom end but as far as low mid (thickness) presence goes, I'm not convinced.

I mean for example, the closest patch I've found to what I want is the reso bass patch (A45) but as I've said, I can't hear the thickness there, even after heavy editing.

I'll try your tips again tonight but I've already tried. I'll try again though.

I agree that its important to know your synth inside out and I could probably do better programming it but something is telling me that I ain't ever gonna get a proper housey bass out of it.

The 60-100hz seems fine but I want real low mid thickness.

Ps Influx, don't dare post a WAV of a real thick housey bass you've managed to program on the Virus and embarass me! ;-)

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Message 16/55 29-Jul-02 @ 07:30 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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Yeah, what he said. I'm not trying to insult you or your programming skills but really, you don't need a seperate machine for bass sounds. That's fucking ludicrous. The virus does great basses.

Also in addition to what Influx said, the saturation section can also add some meat to your sound, as can unison and sometimes a nice chorus. Layer your bass with another voice that uses a pair of sine waves detuned a bit, maybe an octave lower.

-Craig

PS - IMHO the Virus slays any sound you could ever get out of an MS2000. Pad, lead, bass, FX or otherwise.

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Message 17/55 29-Jul-02 @ 11:23 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

influx

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oh yeah, I meant no insult either. I hope it didnt sound that way!!!!

hell..I wouldnt know what a "house-y" bass was anyway...

but Ill see what I can come up with for a sound with good mid bass...

I can say this..I am 100% certain the sound is in there. Youll find it

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Message 18/55 30-Jul-02 @ 12:42 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

milan

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i�m no virus user, but when i heard Stefan�s "guess the synth" test, i thought virus kicked major ass among all those analog/digital/va synths. oh, and try compression and eq before you buy another synth!

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Message 19/55 31-Jul-02 @ 11:29 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Breakerbox

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if you cant thicken bass on the Virus or whatever... Why dont you try an outside fx soft or hard... Getting the big bottom is not that hard.. maybe eq it a bit or uf you use software for mixing you can use the bbe plugin or the quadrafuzz.. You dont need more gear.

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Message 20/55 31-Jul-02 @ 12:48 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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"I managed to upset some amoungst the Virus-owning community with my prevoius review, daring to suggest the bass end lacked depth. Happily I can report that with the additional oscillator, Unison mode and the Analogue Boost parameter, the Virus can now generate a speaker-shaking bass which would silence even the pickiest of critics" - Paul Nagle Sound on Sound Feb 2000.

(Ahem!) Thank you Influx and Craig for saying it like it is and saving me face and �220.

Ps Now for that thick, housey bass ;-)

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Message 21/55 31-Jul-02 @ 02:41 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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Not a problem brother. Now take some of that 220 and buy me a bag ;)

-Craig

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Message 22/55 31-Jul-02 @ 08:41 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

influx

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thing is it was BULLSHIT with the A, too! I got some rumblers with that one...

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Message 23/55 31-Jul-02 @ 08:46 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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I've got an A. We now have analog boost, and AFAIK it's always had a sub-osc and you could definately always layer it.

Usually I have a problem with it taking up too much room, not the opposite.

-Craig

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Message 24/55 01-Aug-02 @ 12:07 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Breakerbox

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there are like 200 tricks to makethe bass fatter.. dont need to buy another synth over their 1000$ one.. its not gonna work coz by the time you figure out the new synth something with some bigger badder booming bass. Then you have to get that one :|

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Message 25/55 01-Aug-02 @ 02:35 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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[RE: pulse= one voice virus?] -
From: 99devils
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Agreed, two different animals... I think you'll find the Virus more flexible overall, but the pulse will smoke it for monophonic basses and leads. It is _real_ analog, after all.

-Craig

Craig, you confusing me mate! :-)

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Message 26/55 01-Aug-02 @ 06:14 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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Yeah, for monophonic analog basses only, how can you deny a monophonic analog synth? But that really wasn't your question. Your question was "should I spend more money on a synth just for bass when I have a Virus?" My answer is hell fucking no!!

But if you ask, which can do better analog basses, a Virus or a Minimoog, I'll pick the mini.

-Craig

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Message 27/55 02-Aug-02 @ 07:49 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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Well? ;-)

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Message 28/55 02-Aug-02 @ 08:30 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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Fuckin' A

If you've got the dosh, then spend it!

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Message 29/55 03-Aug-02 @ 12:57 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

tortoise

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I've personally found it pretty easy to get a really wide range of bass on the Virus B. No lack of power either. I have a Juno-106 too, so I have something to compare it to (or even a TX81Z for that matter). Effects may be necessary to get the sound you are looking for, but not even classic analogs are immune from that.

Damn near everything can produce earth-shattering bass if you program it right, and what works for one synth may not work for another. What really separates the synths is how easy it is to make it happen. On a Juno, you just have to turn the thing on. The Virus is actually pretty simple too; it took me no time at all to do all sorts of bass-y things. It took me a long time to figure out how to do it well on some VA-ish synths like the Z1, but it turns out that it too can belt out subwoofer-eating harmonics once you figure it out.

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Message 30/55 03-Aug-02 @ 10:23 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

horizens

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the virus can make bass. period.

i don't even see how anyone could doubt that.
actually i can. i used to think that when i first
got it. but you know what? it's cuz i didn't know
what i was doing. probably still don't

really though. i program almost every bass
sound with it. subs. growly mid range stuff.
blips. whatever.

is it analog? no. but it can do a load more
than an analog synth can. with the saturation,
fm, effects, midi implementation, etc. it's a
synth that i will never get rid of.

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Message 31/55 03-Aug-02 @ 11:37 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

influx

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see..I didnt even mention horizens and the virus vs bass story

cuz Im a nice guy

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Message 32/55 03-Aug-02 @ 02:12 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Breakerbox

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you will get rid of it when you get the virus c... gearwhore

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Message 33/55 03-Aug-02 @ 10:00 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

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it's all in the filter

- like most synths

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 34/55 05-Aug-02 @ 07:23 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Lava

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I also find that the Virus takes up too much space in a mix. But, I just eBay'd my Virus b and have a C on order, and that new EQ it has should allow me to trim it into the mix much better.

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Message 35/55 05-Aug-02 @ 01:53 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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Ok then how do YOU make your bass sounds on the virus then?

I start with a sawtooth and a pulse wave cos thats the 2 waveforms that are used to recreate bass tones best, yer?

Then I detune OSC 2 down by 12 semitones and take sync off, yer?

Then I might modulate the pitch using a sinewave from LFO 1, yer?

Then its over to the filter and I use a 12db filter. The cutoff is usually at 0 anyway so I take the res down a bit to get rid of the upper harmonics so it sits in the mix better.

Then I might go into unison and assign 2 voice to my bass patch. Then I might add a bit of distortion and chorus.

Is that too basic and the reason why my bass doesn't sound thick or make up a decent fondation for my tracks?

And I agree, the virus does take up alot of room :-)

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Message 36/55 05-Aug-02 @ 02:54 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

tonepoem

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Here's a nice formula for bass on the Virus
that I stumbled into...set the Virus filters to
"split", voices to "twin", set the twin detune to
zero and phase to zero. Set Oscillator 1 to
saw, Osc 2 to sine and Sync the two. Set the
sub oscillator volume to about a quarter of the
way up and bring the Osc init phase up to @
20. Turn down the cutoff on filter one and the
env amount up to about 1/4, with a sharp
attack and decay on the filter.

THE BIGGEST, WARMEST BASS YOU'VE
EVER HEARD.

You really want to have low oscillators in sync
because otherwise the bass'll disappear from
time to time as the waves move in and out of
phase. Also, FX and panning will wash your
bass out and make it muddy, or overpower
your whole mix.

I'm no pro, but these are the things I sort of
learned from trial and error.

-K

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Message 37/55 05-Aug-02 @ 07:34 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

knowa

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keith that is some nice music.

drop, why don't you just go hear a pulse and see what you think? If you hear and freak out and it speaks to you, then it's worth it. If not, then keep those osc's in sync and stop whining ;p

both my virus and my pulse sound WAY better than the reason synth, but I use the subtracor all the time b/c I have low self esteem

the sub works just fine for me a lot of the time, and it's nice not to rewire. even those horrendous reason rhodes patches get used, but I'm not saying they would work for herbie hancock. I think the RS7K is totally dope, but I returned it b/c it doesen't suit my way of working.

see where I'm going? where am I going? I'm going to say this: it's all about you and what you want/need. who's world is this? the world is yours.

I'm really gonna post that stupid virus vs pulse track. I'm leaving myself a voxmail. Duo Electro hated it but they're my archnemesises.

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Message 38/55 05-Aug-02 @ 08:14 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

milan

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Drop, go here:

http://www.trippler.net/music/Stuff/stuff.html

and listen to the same sound done on virus, pulse, microQ, plus few others, and decide for yourself.

and then thank stefan for providing us with the test

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Message 39/55 05-Aug-02 @ 08:15 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

milan

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oh and Tonepoem, nice website and nice music to match. very very nice.

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Message 40/55 06-Aug-02 @ 10:42 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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True, your music sounds proper Keith. Thanks for the advise. It worked quite well. I'm pleased. Also thanks Milan, your always helpful and sound. Knowa, thanks for your input and offer. Kind.

However, this thread has moved on really. I'm over the pulse now. I spent ages with it in TurnKey. It does sound nice but I expected more bass sounds. Yes I do know you have to program it to achieve more but I wasn't massively impressed and That link is correct when it says the envelopes aren't as fast as other synths.

I am more after programming tips now ;-)

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Message 41/55 06-Aug-02 @ 01:03 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

milan

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Hey Knowa, cool track that! very "ninja tune" methinks. damn, why dont you hit us with some dancefloor stuff? i�m sure you could but you find this kinda stuff more interesting to do... anyway, respect.

and Drop, there�s tons of stuff you can do. from your post i think that you are trying to do to much at once without analysing the consequences of those actions.

ok, and a tip for the end: the other day i got a cool bass sound from my Q by ringmodulating a saw wave by triangle set one octave higher. only saw is routed to the mixer, and tri is used only as mod source. then lo cutoff on the filter etc, u know the deal...

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Message 42/55 06-Aug-02 @ 02:05 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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Your sooo right Milan. I think I need to go back to basics on my virus. Maybe even pull the manual out again. The thing is I can blatantly program a good, grooving drum track. I suppose I'm getting impatient with not being able to complement it with an equally strong bass track. One day though! :-)

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Message 43/55 06-Aug-02 @ 02:07 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

milan

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manual reading is a MUST during visits to the toilet!

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Message 44/55 06-Aug-02 @ 03:30 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

knowa

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well I guess it was too late but I added that track last night.

I'm shocked, Drop, that you did not appreciate the obesity of the pulse's bass. you crazy. and I don't want to have your baby.

thanks a lot milan.

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Message 45/55 06-Aug-02 @ 03:54 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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That's a shame Knowa, Ilove kids!:-)

Anyways, I can't listen to your track at work. Bloody security settings. Will tonight though.

I did listen to the pulse and agree that its great but I'd rather buy a MPX 200 with my �199 I think now and learn more and more and more about my virus.

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Message 46/55 07-Aug-02 @ 04:10 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Maarten

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This manual thing reminds me- mate of mine pointed out that you can patch sounds through the internal aux's using the vocoder or sumtin... hmmm, must go to toilet tonight and read manual.

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Message 47/55 07-Aug-02 @ 08:10 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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Yes, you can take a patch and re-route it through another patch. Stack up filter types or process one sound with another.. I never really found a use for it myself, except for vocoding.

-Craig

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Message 48/55 07-Aug-02 @ 09:13 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

swanofnever

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hi,

you can use the bus for gating.. make a patch, rout it to a "Gate" patch, send midi notes to the gate patch while sustaining the first partch... you know...

raigan

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Message 49/55 14-Aug-02 @ 12:27 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

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Virus no base? huh? i broken 1 sett of stereo speakers and my Senhizer head phone becuse my Virus have to much base.. c",)

i mean its 24 Bits shitt..you know.. the frequency range is then longer..

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Message 50/55 14-Aug-02 @ 08:01 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

swanofnever

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the range isn't longer -- we can only hear 20-20k. it's just more finely granulated...

like cutting a meter into 24 parts instead of 16 -- you don't end up with a longer length, but you can measure more finely.

or something.

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Message 51/55 14-Aug-02 @ 09:07 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

djjessex

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Just realize you have a great synth. I hear people bitchin all day long at this site about how the virus, or the nova, or the waldorf wont do this or that. The fact is: your virus has 3 osc, and a sub osc. Now let me stress the sub osc. This is your friend. Start with a bass patch that exists already and use the analog feature. Then use 1 saw wave, 1 sine wave, and one pulse wave. Make the sine wave -1 in octive. Then un syncronize the oscillators a bit for a fatter sound. Also each osc has a mixer so you can mix each ones contribution to the sound. Most folks then run it through a low pass filter, but I like the bandpass and notch filters too. Hey you can even stack your filters and use a lowpass on the lower frequencies and another on the mids. Be creative and never stop experimenting. Ive heard basses from the Virus A so deep that my teeth rattled and my stomach felt queezy.

You must learn to program!
Good luck

J

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Message 52/55 14-Aug-02 @ 04:14 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Tecscope

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Swano: 24 Bits Range = 8-96.000 Mhz.

that means you get realy low freq..and yes
thats why i broken my speakers...you can use a pitch program to se what freq your Virus is doing..Like Cool Edit.. or hardware stuff.

i know you cant hear more than -20 to 22k Mhz.
so the thing is to put the synth in the limit area..(at low freq you can se your speaker membran virbrating alot..i broke mind..)

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Message 53/55 14-Aug-02 @ 04:44 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

swanofnever

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uh... try googling for "sample rate" and "bit depth".

the # of bits used to represent X doesn't directly affect the range of the values of X -- just the NUMBER of unique values X can have.

8-96.000 Mhz is meaningless -- that's governed by sampling frequency (nyquist or whatever) and NOT by bitdepth. you could have 1bit 8-96Mhz sound. (btw... 96 _M_hz?! maybe 96k)

imagine 3 points connected by two lines: 1-2-3 (the points are labelled as numbers)

let's say each of the lines is 1m long -- the whole "snake" is 2m long. so, if we measure from 1 to 2, it's 1m, and from 2 to 3, it's 1m -- the whole thing has a range of 0 (at point 1) to 2m (at point 3).

now let's say each line is 1000000m long -- wow! suddenly our range is HUGE! the whole thing is 2000000m long!!!... but... we didn't add any points/lines! how is this possible?!

easy -- we decreased the resolution. before, our "granularity" was 1m; now it's 1000000m. but the RANGE of possible values increased a LOT.

try this in CoolEdit -- take a 24bit sample and bitreduce it to 8 bits. notice 2 things:

1)the peaks and valleys are just as high -- the vertical range of the sample shouldn't have changed much. thus the range of amplitudes described by the bits is unchanged.

2)the wave looks more "jagged" -- it visibly steps from one sample point to the next. this is cause we now only have 256 possible amplitude values (height).

now try reducing it to 1bit -- you get rectangular waves. but guess what -- the range of frequencies is UNCHANGED. only the _granularity_/resolution changes.

aaaaaanyway -- bitdepth is WAY different from sampling rate. if i have an 8bit number, i can represent 256 unique values with it. but that doesn't tell me the RANGE of values -- i could represent {0,1,2,..,255} or {0,100,200,...25500} or {0,0.1,0.2,..,25.5}... it's arbitrary.

raigan

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Message 54/55 14-Aug-02 @ 10:17 PM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

99devils

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Swan is right. Bit depth is related to dynamic range, while sampling frequency is related to the frequency range a converter is able to reproduce.

-Craig

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Message 55/55 15-Aug-02 @ 10:01 AM - RE: Virus Low End Good?

Drop

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So let me get this right DJJessex. This is what your saying right?

Osc 1 is a sawtooth and osc 2 is a sine cause you can pitch down osc 2 by up to 4 octaves.

Then do you mean make osc 3 a pulse wave cos I think you can only select square or triangle for the sub right?

What's the difference between osc 3 and the sub osc. Does the one permantley operate an octave below 1 and 2?

Then you say to unsync osc 1 and 2. I thought this was bad cos then your waveforms will be out of phase, right?

Then you talk about the osc mixer section. This determines how much of the waveform is routed to the filter section right?

Do you activate twin voices in unison and when you talk about analogue mode are you talking about punch?

Thanks.

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