while on the subject of compressors

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Subject: while on the subject of compressors

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Original Message 1/55 09-Aug-02 @ 10:32 PM - while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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my freind has released a few rcords that sound pretty good. He used softsynths run through a SSL at a studio his freind interns at. His kicks and bass are pretty tight. They have that crunch in the bottom I like. I had read a while back that the compressors in the SSL are very good for this. What kind of compressors are in those consoles and do they sell them as stand alone units. If not what is a good stand alone equivelant?

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Message 2/55 09-Aug-02 @ 10:38 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

beds

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Smart Research compressor is apparently an ssl type.

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Message 3/55 09-Aug-02 @ 10:39 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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thanks.

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Message 4/55 09-Aug-02 @ 10:39 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

damballah

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why don't you trot on over to www.prosoundweb.com and pester fletcher about this 'un? there's a link to his forum.

A. most people here haven't touched an SSL.

B. fletcher goes off on people real good.

I'll stand back and watch.

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Message 5/55 09-Aug-02 @ 10:49 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

influx

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ahahahahhahahaha! can I watch too?

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Message 6/55 11-Aug-02 @ 07:11 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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is he gonna rip into me?

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Message 7/55 11-Aug-02 @ 07:18 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

damballah

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I dunno. That's why I proposed this little "experiment".

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Message 8/55 11-Aug-02 @ 07:50 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

influx

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man..some of these audiophile engineers have got some HIGH attitudes!

try it brett!

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Message 9/55 12-Aug-02 @ 02:26 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

brett

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i will!

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Message 10/55 14-Aug-02 @ 04:53 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

damballah

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well?

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Message 11/55 14-Aug-02 @ 07:03 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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i will take some of those kick samples kind sir if you ever get near the ssl with a sampler...

jamey

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Message 12/55 14-Aug-02 @ 08:47 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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ok I am going off to ask fletcher.

you guys got my back?

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Message 13/55 14-Aug-02 @ 09:00 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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posted it "SSL Compressors"

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Message 14/55 14-Aug-02 @ 09:38 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

damballah

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got your back? why? looks like you might get your question answered.

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Message 15/55 14-Aug-02 @ 10:10 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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got some nice answers already. You said Fletcher goes off on people real good. or did you mean rechnicaly he kind of floods them with info. I think K posted the link to the DIY stuff the guy just gave me.

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Message 16/55 14-Aug-02 @ 11:22 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

damballah

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um, what's the best way to put it? he'll occasionally disabuse people of their silly notions.

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Message 17/55 15-Aug-02 @ 12:00 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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I see, we will see how silly my notions turn out to be. I read his other threads and he seems to be pretty straight forward about helping people.

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Message 18/55 15-Aug-02 @ 12:02 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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by the way thanks for the link there. I had been to this site a few times over the years, but never noticed the rec-pit section.

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Message 19/55 15-Aug-02 @ 12:23 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

bedwyr

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yes, thanks for that one, d.

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Message 20/55 15-Aug-02 @ 12:46 AM Edit: 15-Aug-02 | 12:50 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

damballah

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y'all reading the mixerman saga? today was "girlfriends in the studio." ^^^ link

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Message 21/55 15-Aug-02 @ 01:32 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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"willy popped his head in and held up a fatty" pide piper, magic flute...lol

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Message 22/55 15-Aug-02 @ 05:38 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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ha ha aha ha ah ah

WEGRO!!!

i nearly wet myself in the office and had to go home....

so you gonna DIY?

couldn't you just run some samples thru an ssl desk you could go to a studio etc or you want it for all your mixes i guess.....

jamey

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Message 23/55 15-Aug-02 @ 06:50 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

psylichon

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The SSL compressor is worth at least $3000 on its own. As said before, Smart Research makes a standalone box with the same circuitry (I'm not sure if they actually make the SSL compressor, though).

The compressors on the channels of an SSL (4000 and 9000 series) have rudimentary compressors (I use that term loosely... OBVIOUSLY they're of very high quality, I love em on vocals because they're so transparent. But there's limited speed controls i.e. no attack parameter. Not that great for drums). I've heard people compare them to a DBX 160, but the response is a bit different.

It's the stereo mix buss compressor that most people refer to when they talk about "that SSL sound." Dorks back at Berklee called the insert button for that compressor the "make it a record button." It is a really smooth compressor with wonderful attack and release characteristics that just add a great tubbiness to the track. It's not magic, but it sure sounds like it to most people.

Anyway, it's kinda tricky to even patch an individual track into the mix buss comp... you basically have to patch into the master fader (pre-VCA insert on the patchbay). Or you could run your samples through the mix buss. Some engineers would avoid the extra circuitry, but I personally don't think all that extra circuitry sounds all that bad in an SSL. Some engineers are freaks.

Hope this answers some questions. If you have more, ask, because I do use an SSL at work. But let me know if I become snobbish, because those people are the worst to work with...

psylichon

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Message 24/55 15-Aug-02 @ 08:45 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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i was looking at the DIY stuff with interest (my father is an electonics whiz)

physlicon would it be possible or too much to ask for some a/b type things? like 909 loops dry and then thru the ssl buss compresser etc?

or is there stuff like that already out there?

i just want to *hear* what we are talking about before i start bugging my dad to help me burn circuit boards etc :-)

i am sure i have 'heard' it before but want to get some examples.

i have some software plugs that emulate vintage compressors and love them head over heels better than the 'plain' compressors so i think the ssl thing might be good to look into as a DIY project.

oh btw brett, i found a source for the vca chips you will need for it if you end up doing it.

jamey

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Message 25/55 15-Aug-02 @ 09:00 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

psylichon

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I wouldn't mind doing some A/Bing, but I think it would be more appropriate to run a mix through it rather than drum samples. It'll be easier to hear the sound on an "overcompressed" mix than on a sample. Mix compression is how it's used 99% of the time anyway.

There's also the point that I don't have webspace, and lofi samples aren't gonna show much. Any ideas?

psylichon

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Message 26/55 15-Aug-02 @ 09:10 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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well i meant like 909 drum loops (kicks and all) or something everyone knew what they sounded like dry (like a standard)

but yah entire mixes is good as well...

i have some web space we can use as long as its under 10 megs or so...

if we do 256kbps mp3s its just as good as wave files so that will save some room.

i have some unmastered stuff of some old bedrock tunes (at least it seems unmastered) that we could use on cd.

any other ideas? the 909 drumloops will give me an idea at a minimum.

jamey

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Message 27/55 16-Aug-02 @ 02:25 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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there is one problem i see with the DIY project that these guys are doing. they change the desing and then say , it sounds almost the same. now this is the opinion of the guy who just spent coun tless hours designing the layout for a pcb to put this together. Now look at the compressor setting. his project only has ratio's of 2:1,4:1, 10:1.

so the original uses a dbx202 VCA, they hard to find so he changed the design to use a DBX 2150, a 2155, or even a THAT 2150 for the two VCA's. These are the same as the channel compressors on the SSL. So the sound is going to be differant even if not noticable. So you are getting a unit with less ratio settings, and you are relying on the fact that this design will hold up and your parts used are going to hold up. i certainly don't want to spend 100hours putting one of these together and have a few parts not work and spend another 100hours trying to figure out where I went wrong. I think the samrt research c2 is , sorry for the pun, a "smart" idea is this is the specific sound i want. I mean it made this progressive track my freind did with soft synths just gel together, yes , like a record should sound. The bass and kick were solid and had that low end crunch with rest of the track all smoothed out. i am not looking for open and tranparent. I want that squashed sound.

so psylicon, what do think about the new blue faced dbx160L. It's a FET design as well. It has 3db less head room than the alan smart c2,not really that far off, but does it sound anything like it? I have seen them used on ebay for $1600. I was even curious about the older dbx 162(the stereo version of the 160vu). they go for about $900. Any just asking cause so many producers love the 160 series comps, new and old.

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Message 28/55 16-Aug-02 @ 05:33 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

psylichon

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I would say the 160 wouldn't convince anyone with decent ears if it's an SSL buss compressor you're trying to mimic. But it is an incredible compressor on it's own, and it's great for individual tracks, especially bass. I've never used it on a mix, but it's has more controls than the SSL comp. I've only used original 160's and 160x's, though, so they're all I can attest to.

psylichon

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Message 29/55 16-Aug-02 @ 07:59 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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I have always heard that on bass and live vocals the 160vu is the bomb. But this new blue face is supposed to be able to do the old sound and some newer thigns as well. If anyone has heard one on the bus let me know. I may bring a mix on cd down to a local shop and see how it sounds.

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Message 30/55 16-Aug-02 @ 03:10 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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yah he describes the difference between the two chips and the dbx202's aren't impossible to get just difficult.

"I've built the compressor with both the 202 and the 2150, and the "sound" dosent seem to be that different, only the 202 may tend to be a little more transparant - but that's not always a good thing in compressors. Btw, DBX chip production is long gone now, but "Thats" are more than decent substitutes. The "That 2155" is a lower-distortion replacement for the 2150, so it should work fine also. If you experience problems getting hold on these chips, try contacting a company that repairs music equipment or tape recorders - they're allmost sure to have them in stock, because they are known to fail in older equipment. "

the 'that' chips are just clones of the dbx...

heck i dunno what the ssl even sounds like now but it still seems like a fun project to build that doesn't involve tubes

"The DBX 202XT VCA can be very hard to get, so I designed a substitution circuit based on the DBX2150 VCA - the one that SSL also uses for their channel compressors. This substitute circuit is based on reverse-engeineering a 202XT VCA - it turned out to consist of ten paralleled 2150's with a common low-impedance buffer for the control inputs. So this is the substitute, but done with only one 2150. "

so its the same chip they use on the ssl channel comps

anyone still game for the loops a/b thingy?

if anything psych can do the real ssl, brett can do his $1500 jobbie and i can do the DIY thing... would be fun etc.

100 hours you think? its not *that* big of a circuit....

jamey

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Message 31/55 16-Aug-02 @ 03:24 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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oh the 'that' guy worked at dbx before designing these clone chips:

"This is the original IC VCA designed under THAT President Les Tyler's supervision while he was the chief engineer at dbx, Inc. "

you would hope the chief engineer at DBX would know if he had cloned it correctly :-)

as for the circuit workaround this DIY guy made, maybe you could email him and ask for clarification or something?

jamey

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Message 32/55 16-Aug-02 @ 04:22 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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"New generation of Voltage Controlled Amplifiers"

taken from the C2 page... they won't be using the original dbx202 either. probably the That chips as well

can you try one of these smarts out before you buy it?

is there a studio near you with an ssl desk? it would be cheaper to run an hours worth of mixes thru it to cd than to buy a $1500 compressor if thats your main purpose for it.

jamey

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Message 33/55 16-Aug-02 @ 11:55 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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true, but what about using a comp for tracking as well or on individual channels. I want one that can do both which is why the DIY ssl comp won't work for me. the limited number of ratio's and settings is big draw back. I don't think it would be good for anything but stereo bus compresion or sub group compression.

You think you can get that whole project done in less then a 100hours. First locating materials, parts, setup time for making the pcb. The actual process of making the pcb. Assembling everything, mounting in the case and cutting all the holes in the case. I can't see it being any less than that. It's probably cheaper to build than the tube stuff, but a lot more involved. The la2a kit is so simple. No pcb's to worry about.

I wonder if there is a way to change the design to incorporate more ratio and attack settings? We should e-mail keven. I would be willing to do it if it did. What do you think this project would cost?

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Message 34/55 17-Aug-02 @ 03:55 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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the most expensive parts are the powersupply and case... i am thinking maybe $150-200

my dad is an expert at DIY and has been doing ham radios for the better part of his life and knows the stuff inside out. i am hoping to get a bit of this knowledge transferred to me :-) if it takes 100 hours thats fine, it didn't look like that big of a project to me. he already has the jewelers drills and variable temp soldering iron etc. he can also teach me how to read schematics ha ha...

the reason i want to build it is i want a master compressor to go on the outputs of my yamaha rs7000 when playing live and also perhaps when mastering tracks it would be nice to fatten them up as well. i wouldn't see myself using it on individual tracks as those are almost always done inside the computer. no reason i couldn't put it on the outs of my nord tho! i think having limited settings for compression ratios etc is what gives it its sound. like all the old eqs and stuff would never have fully adjustable eq points, they would always be set at musically usefule points etc.

link for the LA2A please? :-)

jamey

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Message 35/55 17-Aug-02 @ 07:52 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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it's a book I found for $25.00. I think I posted it on another thread here. I'll look. It is a very simple design but a lot more expensive because of the transformer. But the la2a is supposed to be perfect on snares and things with sharp transients.

Listen, if you are going to do the ssl comp. will you do a extra set of pcb's drilled for me if I pay you, And give me a copy of the parts list after your dad goes through the drawings? I have repaired my analog synths and soldered chips on and off of boards doing rework when I worked at Compaq, but never made a pcb before adn don't have the jewelers drill for making all the holes in it.

I'll find the LA2A material.

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Message 36/55 17-Aug-02 @ 08:27 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

brett

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here you go.

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Message 37/55 17-Aug-02 @ 10:12 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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heh you are in line behind nomad for a pcb...

i suppose once you get it set up its not to hard to burn off a few more :-)

keep in mind this could be a year long project of me and the dad putting back cold ones as we hang out :-)

jamey

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Message 38/55 17-Aug-02 @ 10:13 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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I am more on the lines of order the parts and knock it out in week!

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Message 39/55 18-Aug-02 @ 01:12 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

brett

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http://advancedcircuits.com

this company does the pcb manufacturing. for 3 prototype one off's at 4" x 7" it's $94. And they can probably do both boards on one piece for a little more, and then we just have to cut them apart. This is with a 3 day turnaround. That is pretty cool . We would probably spend that going to kinkos and getting the transparencies made correctly and the lightbulbs etc. Plus they will be done right most likley. So if we throw in we can have them made pretty cheap.

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Message 40/55 18-Aug-02 @ 01:23 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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I stand corrected. It was $94 per board. hum? not so cheap.

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Message 41/55 18-Aug-02 @ 04:26 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

influx

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shiiit. just buy an RNC

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Message 42/55 18-Aug-02 @ 07:10 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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never, that would be too easy. So you use the rnc on the mix bus? You are really saying the $200 compressor is going to give me the sound I am looking for. I have heard they were good for tracking drums, but mix down as well? Anyway, making the pcb isn't that involved. you can buy iron on kits you print on ,that go over the copper. then you just expose it to a acid(etching) and it eats away the exposed part leaving the leads intact. clean, drill and flux it. Then you are good to go with the componants. I am going to do it just to see if I can. If it works. i'll build somthing else. If it turns out to be a peice of crap that overheats and burns up, I won't. But most likely I'll do just fine.

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Message 43/55 18-Aug-02 @ 04:29 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

psylichon

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the RNC is really designed for mix buss compression. I've never heard it used on individual tracks.

And, yes, for the mix the RNC is unbelievable for the price. very transparent, though.

psylichon

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Message 44/55 18-Aug-02 @ 04:43 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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transparent is overated. I want flat and crunchy with low end distortion harmonics. Is that so wrong? The SSL is great at that. It makes dance mixes sound like they are comming off finished vinyl. I'll let you guys know how I am making out. I am going to make extra pcb's for you guys if you cover the cost of shipping and do your own drilling. I on the otherhand need you , Jamey, to have your DAD go over the pictures and write down a parts list and let me know where to get it all. How does that sound?

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Message 45/55 18-Aug-02 @ 08:21 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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sounds good... it may take a bit of time. i have already sourced the hard to find vca that chip dealies from the uk for about 3.60ukp each. you can't buy them in the usa unless you get quantities of 25 and even if me and you and nomad did it thats 9, not 25 :-)

as for the RNC, i remember back when i had one i was unable to make the thing sound like a compressor pumping... i mean obviously it could pump but it was very 'transparent' as everyone else is saying. i had never heard of people using the RNC on the whole mix, just the tracks but i don't hang in the 'record a rock band' circles and thats most of the people who have them and use them.

don't underestimate the RNC tho.. its literally worth probably $800 even tho its cheap....

hey on the topic of soft comps, brett you say you didn't like the sound of the rencomp from waves on your tracks? i was using it on my drums and man it sounds great, especially while pumping.

if you don't need a hardware unit brett, make sure to try out the polish plug in dudes compressor.. $150ish i think and its supposed to be one of the nicest comps on the soft market.

you could also look into the uad / mackie card thingy it has some nice vintage emulators. the only reason i am going for hard instead of soft is for the live yamaha rs7000 thing that i still may never take out live :-)

jamey

jamey

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Message 46/55 20-Aug-02 @ 04:35 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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actaully I do use the waves RCL. I just like the way analog devices add that harmonic distorion when overdriven. I like that color. Typically I use the RCL in opto with auto release on 1:5, slow attack medium release. Then I use the L1 behind that. I just want to go through a analog device to dull it down a bit and add some of that color to warm it up.

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Message 47/55 20-Aug-02 @ 05:53 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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so none of the 'warmer plugs' (the polish ones, etc) do it for you?

i spent this weekend playing with the RenC on some straight 909 loops i made. i think i like the opto warm mode best.

you know you can overdrive it and it will limit for you? try it out...

this week i will play with the renEq after reading that the gerzon shelves are modelled after pultec eqs and i think i understand them a bit better. you can drive it into limiting as well.

its amazing how long you can use something before you find out all the features...

i also think i am going to stop using the C4 for a while. i don't think it does justice to my stuff. i really like the renC over the whole track better than the C4 right now. i end up changing stuff too much on the c4 when i shouldn't be

jamey

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Message 48/55 20-Aug-02 @ 10:45 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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jamey, I have had the gold bundle for about a year now. I know then inside and out. They are the best plug-ins I have used. Well, actually I don't like the RCL on snares or hats. It is to transparent. The C4 works better. I like the C4, just got it, but would have liked it to have the limiter on it like the RCL though. That doppler can make some cool stuff happen. The best bundle I have used. And the RenC is the RCL, renaissance comp/limiter. For eq, I prefer the timeworks mastering eq.

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Message 49/55 25-Aug-02 @ 02:59 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Meriphew

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Alan Smart makes the compressors that are on the SSL. You can buy the compressor on it's own over at www.mercenary.com. If you have more technical questions on the Alan Smart compressor, I highly recommend you ask Fletcher over at Prosoundweb, he is a very knowledgeable, and very cool guy.

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Message 50/55 25-Aug-02 @ 06:45 AM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

damballah

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there's an idea

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Message 51/55 25-Aug-02 @ 07:43 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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uh .....I think I already did that? And now I am building one instead. If I can get Jamey to have his dad locate the parts dealers and get me a parts list together, I can get the PCB's knocked out.

and I meant to say the C1 is better on hats and snares compared to the RCL.

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Message 52/55 25-Aug-02 @ 08:47 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

formant

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heheh so its all down to my old man now?

working on it still...

time keeps on slipping into the future :-)

jamey

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Message 53/55 26-Aug-02 @ 07:59 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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it's cool. i'll figure it out if I have to, just look at the photo and I don't have a clew what I am looking at. Just one more thing I need to read up on and didn't want to. If I have a list though and all the parts in front of me, I can easily match them up, but ordering them , and knowing what they are called is another story.

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Message 54/55 26-Aug-02 @ 09:27 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

hookt on foniks

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"clew"

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Message 55/55 27-Aug-02 @ 10:34 PM - RE: while on the subject of compressors

Brett

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that is how we spell it here in texas. it's like the whole color, colour thing. ya know clew, clue?

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