Mastering a mix CD... - Mixing & FX forums

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Subject: Mastering a mix CD...

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Original Message 1/30 28-Aug-02 @ 04:45 PM Edit: 28-Aug-02 | 04:54 PM - Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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I have been given the task of mastering a DJ's mix to go on CD. Overall the quality is good enough so EQing will be limited to removing slight hissing and rumbling every now and then. The only thing that really needs fixing is the overall volume that fluctuates from track to track. The mixes themselves are spot-on, it's just the way that each track has been mastered differently causes the mix to become quiet in places and louder in others. I don't want to add too much more compression, as this is a house music set, so all the tracks are already CTF. I was thinking of using subtle limiting, but have not done this kind of thing before, so I am not sure. Does anyone know the best way to get the overall levels fairly equal? And does anyone have any other tips for doing this kind of mastering?

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 2/30 28-Aug-02 @ 05:07 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Drop

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Steve, I'm no expert but have done this before in a studio. I used compression with a ratio of 1.5:1 and the threshold at -10. The LED gain reduction meter was hitting -3 db with the occasional hit at -6.

I don't know how helpful this is but the DJ seemed pleased.

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Message 3/30 28-Aug-02 @ 05:18 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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Cheers Drop! I'll give that a go. The one problem I will be facing is that the DJs wont hear this until it's finished. Slackers! :P

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 4/30 28-Aug-02 @ 07:26 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

formant

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you can never have enough compression :-)

run it thru the L1 maximizer as well...

tell the djs to get their levels right next time and it will be easier on you

jamey

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Message 5/30 28-Aug-02 @ 07:46 PM Edit: 28-Aug-02 | 07:49 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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That's just what I've done. It took all of half an hour with the L1 Ultramaximizer+. What a fantastic set of tools these Waves plugs are. Truly, money well spent.

The DJs have got the levels spot on, it really is good mixing and I didn't have to correct anything. Most of the mixes are that damned good that it took me flipping ages to find where one track ended and the other began, and I know most of the tracks. The problem was in the different sound of each record, each of which will have been compressed and mastered differently. So while some had a full loud sound throughout, others became quiet or peaked quite loudly, and so on...

Thanks again fellas!

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 6/30 28-Aug-02 @ 07:47 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Drop

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Actually Formant I think you can have too much compression! :-)

On my first ever session at work I had to record a DJ mix. I compressed it way too much and when we played it back through the huge set of wall speakers the whole mix sounded like it was coming out of a set of shitty car speakers. It was way too squashed. Very embarrassing!

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Message 7/30 28-Aug-02 @ 08:21 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

influx

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PLEASE tell me you werent serious jamey!

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Message 8/30 28-Aug-02 @ 09:03 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

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if the tracks vary in peak level quite alot, that can and can not be an issue, but for dance generaly yes the peak level of the tracks would all be the same, because you're not dealing with like mebbe a varied rock album with loud and laid-back tracks in the same programme... What's the mastering host s/w then?... Like in wavelab wouldn't it be best to import all the tracks to your master file and then search for peak across the whole length/all tracks, set that as the peak and raise the gain up on the other to match PRIOR to final mastering compression if any? - I mean you dont want to try to employ the compresor to actualy raise levels of tracks to match each other, it's not designed for that really.

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Message 9/30 28-Aug-02 @ 09:18 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

formant

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yes influx...

it was a dual joke actually

1) making fun of the fact people compress too much

2) making fun of the fact most mix cds in particular are way overcompressed.

jamey

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Message 10/30 28-Aug-02 @ 09:29 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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As I said, the set is a house music set, and alot of the tracks are very disco and live sounding. Basically, it's just that these live-sounding tracks have a much greater dynamic range than the more electronic tracks, so they tend to sound quieter. I just used the L1 to raise the overall level throughout the mix. Altering each track would have been very tricky to do without destroying the smooth mixes. I found that using the L1 didn't audibly effect the more electronic tracks anyway, as their dynamic range had already been completely limited, whereas it boosted the live-sounding tracks quite well.

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 11/30 28-Aug-02 @ 09:53 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

psylichon

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My advice would be to load the whole CD into your DAW and level match it with automation (envelopes would allow precise control, just a couple dB between songs) You wouldn't have to go nuts, just a smooth transition from quiet song to loud song and vice versa. Then put the L1 over the whole thing with no more than 3 dB of reduction, put split points at the beginning of each track, bounce each track down seperately, and burn all tracks Disc-at-once. It would take at most 2 hours even if you're anal about it.

psylichon

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Message 12/30 28-Aug-02 @ 10:08 PM Edit: 28-Aug-02 | 10:10 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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Cheers for your replies, but I think I explained the situation incorrectly. All of the levels are correct on the original DAT. It's not the actual track levels that needed adjusting, they all sounded, and were, peaking at around the same level. It's just that different tracks sound more quiet or loud due to the way that they were mastered before they were pressed to vinyl. So I was just looking for a way to get the overall dynamic range sounding equal throughout the mix. I managed to do this simply by using the L1. This didn't affect the tracks that were already heavily compressed very much, but it boosted all of the less compressed tracks quite effectively. It's no Steve Powers job, but it sounds good.

Thanks again for all of your help!

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 13/30 29-Aug-02 @ 04:27 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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Thanks for your help guys. The DJs were very impressed, especially as I finished it within an evening. This should definitely bring me more work.

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 14/30 29-Aug-02 @ 05:04 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

prox

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congrats Steve. :-)

I have another question regarding how much compression you can put on a track.. when is it enough? I'm a bit hard on the compressor sometimes and I'm afraid that this will make my tracks sound like a sick dog when they are being played on a big system. Sometimes my tracks are like -1 db all over and a bit muffled.. I know, it's not good.

sorry for stealing your thread Steve

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Message 15/30 29-Aug-02 @ 07:50 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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Well, the best advice here is to get used to your monitors and guage for yourself. This might not sound too helpful, but every track needs different attention, as does every style of music, and so on. There are no real rules. So the best thing is to find out how your speakers act. Add compression as you see fit then listen to the track on as many different systems as possible, all the while taking note on the differences from system to system. You'll get the hang of it.

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. I am just speaking from experience. Someone here might be able to help a bit more.

regards.

steve.

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Message 16/30 29-Aug-02 @ 07:55 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

bedwyr

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easy way to guage it, load a favourite track into wavelab and have a look at the wavefrom, then compare it to the big block of colour that is your over-compressed track, and you can use wavelabs analyser to check the peak and average rms of your track compared to other ones. not gonna tell you everything, but it's a little guide.

hi prox!

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Message 17/30 30-Aug-02 @ 03:07 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

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YEAH GET SOIME COMPRESSION MULTIBANDED ON THE BOTTOM END AND YOU CAN PUMP THAT A BIT BUT JUST Raise the top-end 'smack' (sorry bout caps)

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Message 18/30 30-Aug-02 @ 04:23 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

damballah

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there's that "vintage meter" thing free from psp, behaves more like a traditional VU and gives you an idea of relative loudness. everyone tries to get stuff peaking as close to 0 dbfs as they can, but the peaks don't tell you shit really. i prolly didn't tell you shit, either. anyway...

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Message 19/30 30-Aug-02 @ 11:49 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

proximus

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Thanks for the tips.

I guess you just gotta use your ears \ or compare with other tracks of that genre.. hehehe.

I agree that different tracks and different genres should be mastered differently. Like trance and house is simply begging for heavy compression (I think) but other genres like ambient prefer a nice touchey-de-compressa.

Sometimes I push the track so far that it destorts a little little bit.. distortion is relative.. when distortion occurs, the signal can be distorted it's just that you don't hear it.. because it's distorted just a bit, but the distortion still is there and someone else might hear it. So, what I thought was that if it distorts a little on my speakers then it might sound like a sick dog if it's being played on a big system..

If you don't have peaks but everything is -1 or -3 then it tells you something.. it tells me that my track looks like a blue block in Sound Forge and that something is a bit overcompressed.

hi bedwyr!

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Message 20/30 30-Aug-02 @ 11:49 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

prox

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I use T-racks by the way.. maybe multiband mastering is better?

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Message 21/30 30-Aug-02 @ 04:59 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

psylichon

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Here's my technique:

I use compression more for its sound and then a limiter for volume. I can tell you that most pros won't hit an L1 or L2 limiter more than 3, maybe 5 dB depending on the music. Any more and it starts getting audible.

When I mixdown, I put it into Sound Forge or Wavelab and analyze the song in sections. The loudest sections shouldn't have an RMS level more than -10dBfs, and that's REALLY screaming in my opinion (although unfortunately, that's how many pro albums are mastered these days and ya gotta compete). For my downtempo stuff, I try to get the loudest sections about -12 to -14dB. Analyzing it also lets me check the left/right balance. So if there's a level or balance problem, I just go back to Sonar, adjust my limiter and stereo imager on the master fader, and rebounce it. Check it again. Works for me.

If there are quiet sections that need brought out, sometimes I'll edit the mixdown with some fades. But I don't like to try and "level" a song with a limiter or compressor. It becomes too audible.

psylichon

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Message 22/30 31-Aug-02 @ 01:19 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

proximus

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thanks for the tips man. Great tracks you have :-)

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Message 23/30 01-Sep-02 @ 06:11 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

brett

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I actually mix it well. this is an old technique not used by so many these days. You see, you use the fader on your mixing board to get the levels right and you use the meter on your mixer and your ears to set the leve3ls and drive the mix.

unless you are mixing unmastered tracks you shouldn't have to go back and edit. maybe you should try mixing more and spend less time trying to edit the mix. just my useless opinion, but that is what a dj does, and what mixing is. Jukeboxes have limiters to try and smooth out levels from track to track. are you a jukebox, or a dj?

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Message 24/30 01-Sep-02 @ 04:29 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

psylichon

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First off, I'm not a DJ, I'm an engineer/producer. And sometimes it's easier to edit a 2-mix in spots than it is to automate a bunch of tracks in the mix. Sorry I find this easier, I must be some kind of asshole or something.

I think we're confusing live mixing with studio mixing here. Besides, there's no "right way" to do anything when it comes to music.

And when did you become such a prick, Brett?

psylichon

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Message 25/30 01-Sep-02 @ 06:29 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

bedwyr

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probably just used his ears :P

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Message 26/30 01-Sep-02 @ 11:46 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Brett

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sorry about being a dick. I was tired. point is, I am sick of labels and individuals putting out so called mix sets that were surgically done in a DAW and passing it off as a dj set. And when you go back and cover up faulty mixing from a dj you are covering up those things that he needs to work on before taking peoples money for a live show. You should be as good as your cd , if not better than it showcases, and never worse. When you play mastered tracks there really is no reason to master the finished set. the dynamics and levels are part of the dj's job.

so I was talking to steve and maybe he should explain this to his dj freind . A live mix could benefit from some mild compression, but using faders to fix levels is going to far. The dj should have gotten that stuff right before hand. I am skeptical about steve's freind who gave him this job. aren't you the one who was asking all about dj's with traktor? is this a traktor mix you did? just curious....

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Message 27/30 02-Sep-02 @ 02:46 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Steve Roughley

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Check my posts again Brett. I don't mean to be a prat, but there are a couple of points that I would like to clarify: 1) I have never used Traktor. In that thread I was empathising with TIC's plight about defensive DJs/Artists. 2) The DJs that gave me the DAT had their levels spot-on and I didn't have to alter a single mix through automated fading or otherwise. They really are very talented and in the end, all that was needed was a little compression applied to the whole mix to give it a finished production feel, as you suggested. 3) And I don't see how a DJ can be made responsible for the dynamics of a mastered track. Dynamics are best altered with compression, which, generally speaking, is not a DJ tool.

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 28/30 02-Sep-02 @ 03:49 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Brett

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cool, I'll show myself to the door.

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Message 29/30 02-Sep-02 @ 07:44 PM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

psylichon

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I was way off the live DJ set tip... I was in my world of studio mastering. But I think we all walked away unscathed.

Next time we'll all talk about the same thing, agreed?

psylichon

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Message 30/30 06-Sep-02 @ 02:27 AM - RE: Mastering a mix CD...

Brett

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OK

wait i am supposed to be gone.... I better git!

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