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Subject: sub mixes

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Original Message 1/27 22-Sep-02 @ 11:34 AM - sub mixes

Brett

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been mixing tracks for a while and just realized how important it is to mix your groups well. by putting my drum groups through a timeworks compressor x I was able to get the over all balance i have been looking for for ever. I individually compressed the drum tracks as needed but also run them through a soft compressor with a limiter and this solved the problems I have always had from using a 2 bus compressor and limiter where the kick got out of hand when everything else dropped out. it allowed me to have the kick stay constant and present throughout the track even when compressing and limiting the two bus. guys , your plug-ins matter. All I can say is, get your drum mix working this way, then bring the bass and all the others in after the fact and it should be solid. I had always left my bass drum out of my drum group because of pumping, but the timeworks compressor x does a great job of solidifying the drums overall in the track for everything else to fall into place when running a two bus compressor. I am sure many of you know this, but thought it was important to mention if you want a slamming kick and a heavy bass as well.

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Message 2/27 23-Sep-02 @ 03:29 PM - RE: sub mixes

formant

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i agree...

another fun way to do the submix is to put your kick and bass on one submix and let them pump

jamey

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Message 3/27 23-Sep-02 @ 03:49 PM - RE: sub mixes

Drop

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Brett, do you compress your kick individually and THEN route it to your drum sub mix?

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Message 4/27 23-Sep-02 @ 07:04 PM - RE: sub mixes

formant

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wouldn't it just depend on the song and the kick used?

if you are using a kick of vinyl its been compressed like 10 times by the time you use it :-)

jamey

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Message 5/27 24-Sep-02 @ 08:44 AM - RE: sub mixes

brett

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yes i usually compress the kick individually as well. i had always grouped the bass and kick , but leaving it in the drum group and using a 2:1 with a peak limiter on on the compx works great. the soft compressor makes the kick warm and solid in the mix.

i just think getting all the parts you want to gel together into their own group is what makes the ballance easier. then compress that group before going to the stereo bus comp as needed. the timeworks compressor is great on the drum mix. it really warmed it up and took the bite off the kick and made it all warm and gel together when using the soft setting. much better than the waves stuff or any other plug i've used.

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Message 6/27 24-Sep-02 @ 09:53 AM - RE: sub mixes

psylichon

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Speaking as a professional engineer, I would warn against building up a personal "template" for mixing. While it may save time, it will only lead to frustration when you get tired of your sound. Each mix tells you how it wants to be mixed, and you have to listen to it. Unless you use the same sounds all the time, of course, then whatever.

When I mention the professional thing, it's not to blow my own horn, but to let you know that I've worked with many successful engineers greater than I and the best don't come to the table with any preset ideas. Just an idea.

psylichon

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Message 7/27 24-Sep-02 @ 10:10 AM - RE: sub mixes

Drop

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Pyslichon, I'm only an assistant engineer but I have to disagree with you. I think its important to have an individual "sound" not only in the actual music but also in the mix process.

I've assisted tons of pro engineers and there is a common thread in alot of techniques. Especially drum compression.

Just my personal opinion.

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Message 8/27 24-Sep-02 @ 10:34 AM - RE: sub mixes

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but both opinions are right.... on the one hand we have techniques you *can* use and it's good to be familiar with those 'templates' so to speak... on the other hand you have, the appropriateness of using those techniques in any given session across various genre's from rock to dance.

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Message 9/27 24-Sep-02 @ 09:22 PM - RE: sub mixes

psylichon

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It definitely depends on the session. I know clients who pick an engineer _because_ he moves quick and works from templates. But if you're working on your own thing, trying to be original, I would still say it's best to have a bag of tricks you can go into as needed for the situation.

Of course, if you're trying to mix a whole album and you're going for a homogenous sound then, well, yeah, you know...

psylichon

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Message 10/27 25-Sep-02 @ 01:01 PM - RE: sub mixes

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well you gotta think about it, you can compress a whole kit in stereo and find the hats even do odd things... I like to use a multiband compressor on a whole kit if i'm working fast in stereo only & want drums more pumping, but would apply seperate compression on a multi-channel kit where required.

Actualy this'd make a good article.

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Message 11/27 25-Sep-02 @ 02:08 PM - RE: sub mixes

milan

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mm yeah. in reply to all the profesional engineers and their assistants, i tend to compress my drums individually to ge the mix right, and _then_ group them and send them to a buss compressor, but only if i have a very good compressor at hand which is going to bring something to the sound (lets say tube or photooptical or a multiband thingy).

and re. techniques, ok, its cool to have some hard learned tricks up your sleeve which you can use, but honestly, how much time do you have to get things happening at the mix? especially if there are any musicians around? of course you have to have standard techniques which work every time, dont you... you dont start each new mix thinking "right, what do i do now"!

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Message 12/27 25-Sep-02 @ 02:37 PM - RE: sub mixes

bedwyr

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i do, but usually it's "what the fuck do i do now?" :P

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Message 13/27 25-Sep-02 @ 02:39 PM - RE: sub mixes

milan

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sorry beds, i was talking to the professional engineers here.

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Message 14/27 25-Sep-02 @ 03:12 PM - RE: sub mixes

bedwyr

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sod off

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Message 15/27 25-Sep-02 @ 03:29 PM - RE: sub mixes

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lol!

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Message 16/27 25-Sep-02 @ 07:32 PM - RE: sub mixes

psylichon

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heheh... that's wrong.

You're right, of course. When I mix at work it's gotta be fast cause I work in downtown Philly and let's just say the clients don't have the $$$ to pay you to listen to raw tracks for an hour to get "inspired".... (not after all that weed and hennesey they bought)

I was talking when you work at home, on your own computer on your own time. We have massively creative tools at our disposal, and it's a shame to fall into the same way of doing things. That's all I meant.

psylichon

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Message 17/27 26-Sep-02 @ 09:03 AM - RE: sub mixes

brett

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glad i checked back in. pretty funny Bed!

yeah, be creative , do unusually things with diferant types of tracks, but really, I have n\been working on my sound. that's right my sound. This is what was missing from my mixes. the kick was never really sitting with the rest of the drums or the mix until now. I am always using plugs for lack of outboard and because i use softsynhts and softsamplers now. The timeworks is the first software comp that has actually given me a nice analog and colored sound. Checking my settings, i had the kick and drum group comp on hard. with the limiter on as well.

K. you are definatly right about compressors messing with hats, also tails of reverb, and delay. the release has to set properly to avoid those types of boost or attenuation , which ever is the problem. I might try a c4 on the drum group and see how it does. and do a write up on what you were getting at earlier if you have some time.

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Message 18/27 26-Sep-02 @ 05:09 PM Edit: 26-Sep-02 | 05:10 PM - RE: sub mixes

damballah

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[image file]

hey. no way you've found your sound.
not without a protools rig and a home built
SSL compressor that jamey's dad etched you
a circuit board for. nuh-uh.

src=attatchments/cover.jpg>

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Message 19/27 26-Sep-02 @ 11:25 PM - RE: sub mixes

Brett

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all good things in time. but this is going to do for now.

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Message 20/27 28-Sep-02 @ 01:09 PM - RE: sub mixes

lonely

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where can i meet men like that?

"don't taunt the happy fun ball!"

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Message 21/27 30-Sep-02 @ 09:14 PM - RE: sub mixes

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this also introduces the interesting thing that often dance is constructed and steered by whatever has been applied technicaly, with grouped compression, introducing certain elements into the mix might cause the compressor to treat other sounds differently, changing the feel or emphasis of the pattern... that in turn will influence other parts added empathicaly to whatever already is there... a compressor can drasticaly change a clap or has from a single percussive sound to a swaying back-n-forth pumping percussive sweep sound etc...

That's why for newbies it's NOT a good idea to work on stuff and 'then mix'... mix as you go along always.

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 22/27 30-Sep-02 @ 09:40 PM - RE: sub mixes

Ghost

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...interesting thread.... good info.

let's say you were using a multiband compressor on a drum submix.... anyone have advice on where to split the bands, or how to decide where to split the bands?

any comments appreciated...

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Message 23/27 30-Sep-02 @ 11:55 PM - RE: sub mixes

milan

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use your ears

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Message 24/27 01-Oct-02 @ 12:27 AM - RE: sub mixes

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uh-oh!.. I tell you one great way... d/load or get the cd for a few demo s/w's with multiband comp's inside or for actual posh 'upper-ware' multiband comps, and study the presets' bands... that's a good start.

___________________________________

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Message 25/27 01-Oct-02 @ 01:53 AM - RE: sub mixes

Ghost

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ha! good one milan....:P shoulda expected it!!

thanks k I think I'll do that... test drive a few and see what it does....

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Message 26/27 01-Oct-02 @ 05:42 AM - RE: sub mixes

psylichon

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I'm not sure how good an idea it is to "mix while you go" though.

I never get a track finished when I do that. I think it's best to focus on the creative side of it first (obviously with an ear towards the final mix), and then dive into the technical side. Obviously there's a fuzzy line, and as you start the mix, more musical ideas will come. But if you get caught up with compressors as soon as you lay an instrument down, I think you get yourself in trouble.

psylichon

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Message 27/27 01-Oct-02 @ 04:41 PM - RE: sub mixes

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no no mate - cos the comp might pump the rhythm differently changing the emphasis of the beat and suggesting a different thing to be added next... serious... just listen to your basic grooves over and over and you'll start to hear new lines being created psycho-acousticaly, like you can hear a new melody/pattern which is not actualy in the track... don't you get that?

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