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Forums - The lounge
Subject: Faith
Viewing all 188 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 19
Original Message 1/188 24-Sep-02 @ 05:37 AM - Faith
Persuant to another thread in another forum in another land...
I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)
I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.
Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.
I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.
And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.
This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?
Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...
Dave
p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...
I'm really curious about the kinds of things we put our faith into. There's a lot of talk about various religions and the differences between them lately, but a lot of the talk sounds like a book report. What I mean is, it sounds like well-collected information culled from various readings (most of them from reputable sources, no doubt) used to form an opinion about a subject. The problem is that we can't read everything. And even if we could, reading without bias does not occur. You have an opinion before you start that affects everything that passes through you, and you only take what you feel is important. It just seems like a snowball effect that leaves you old, bitter towards the world, and highly opinionated (often complaining about how others are stubborn in their reasoning... etc....)
I think live, interactive debate cannot be surpassed as a learning experience. To really take in someone else's view on life and the things that are important to them is one of the greatest gifts we have (it's reflected in our music, and subsequent appreciation of each other's creations). The same biases can take place as in reading, but I think the dynamic nature of a conversation eliminates unchecked bias without reason.
Ok, now to my point. I was raised Christian. My mother is very active in the church, and follows very conservative Christian values. I used to be very active in the church with youth groups, mission work, and stuff like that. After the self-exploration that is college, I strayed away (does this sound familiar to anyone?) My mother and I lately have been getting into spiritual conversations, and she is ever more vocal about her disappointment in the direction my beliefs are heading.
I want to know what it is about Christianity that makes it so prevalent in today's society? I mean, millions of people don't choose this lifestyle just because their parents did. I know that Christianity goes deep, I've just never felt it. And I don't want slagging answers from non-Christians... "it's a crutch, a lie, a shame, etc." I've heard all that and I don't learn a thing from it. I want a personal account of why someone puts their faith in Christian ideals.
And so help me if someone accuses someone else of trying to "force" their opinion on others, I'm gonna shit all over you because that stuff just kills the kind of debate that I'm looking for here. And I don't want philosophical ramblings that you've heard and can relate to and they sound cool, but they aren't you. I want only deep ideas that have really been thought out.
This kind of stuff is important to me, so please take this thread seriously. If the lounge is not the place for this kind of discussion, let me know and I'll take it elsewhere....?
Thanks for really thinking about it, guys. This could be really cool...
Dave
p.s. - Yes, Jamie, I know you're the resident Christian here, and I'm kinda hoping you'll help me start things here, if you want...
Message 2/188 24-Sep-02 @ 05:56 AM - RE: Faith
my thing has always been this:
the 'world' is an incredibly complex place, impossible to explain completely. Throw in the concept of a spiritual realm, and the doors are just thrown wide
now...attempts to explain this are going to vary drastically from place to place and from time to time. ALL fall short of complete explanation, yet all have their adherents. The benefits of following a certain path, if there are any benefits, are usually clearly visible, right?
so, ultimately, it is truly a matter of choice. What you choose to believe, based on the input you've received. Right, wrong, Jesus, Allah. Cant be proven. Doesnt matter one iota though, because it WORKS for people!
The best christians I know are the ones that have a personal thing going on. SURE they'll tell you what they think, and these specific friends of mine DO try to 'convert' me, but it is because they BELIEVE that what they think and feel is correct, and they want (what they think is) the best for me and others who they care about. I've heard this numerous times, from quite a few different people, and it always touched me to see it for what it was...wanting to share a beautiful thing with innumerable benefits.
but. it. didnt. ring. for. me.
hell Im not even answering your main question...why Christianity? Well...maybe theyre right? Maybe it IS the truth, and resonates so effectively?
shit. have to say 'hell if I know' on this one. Personally, I would feel like an arrogant idiot if I were to claim that I understand the origins of humanity, the existence (or non) of 'god', etc., and I have to feel the same for those who make such claims
the 'world' is an incredibly complex place, impossible to explain completely. Throw in the concept of a spiritual realm, and the doors are just thrown wide
now...attempts to explain this are going to vary drastically from place to place and from time to time. ALL fall short of complete explanation, yet all have their adherents. The benefits of following a certain path, if there are any benefits, are usually clearly visible, right?
so, ultimately, it is truly a matter of choice. What you choose to believe, based on the input you've received. Right, wrong, Jesus, Allah. Cant be proven. Doesnt matter one iota though, because it WORKS for people!
The best christians I know are the ones that have a personal thing going on. SURE they'll tell you what they think, and these specific friends of mine DO try to 'convert' me, but it is because they BELIEVE that what they think and feel is correct, and they want (what they think is) the best for me and others who they care about. I've heard this numerous times, from quite a few different people, and it always touched me to see it for what it was...wanting to share a beautiful thing with innumerable benefits.
but. it. didnt. ring. for. me.
hell Im not even answering your main question...why Christianity? Well...maybe theyre right? Maybe it IS the truth, and resonates so effectively?
shit. have to say 'hell if I know' on this one. Personally, I would feel like an arrogant idiot if I were to claim that I understand the origins of humanity, the existence (or non) of 'god', etc., and I have to feel the same for those who make such claims
Message 3/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:12 AM - RE: Faith
Kinda what I was afraid of, influx.
Why does this kind of question inevitably lead to a "hands in the air, don't know so why ask" response? I'm not directing this at you, influx, but at everyone I engage in debate with. It always falls into a relativistic trap where no argument seems to hold merit. I think the human mind can transcend this sort of illusion. It IS important what we believe, whether what we believe is "true" or not, it's what makes us fucking human! THAT's what I'm trying to get at here...
I don't really want any questions answered here, I want more questions.
psylichon
Why does this kind of question inevitably lead to a "hands in the air, don't know so why ask" response? I'm not directing this at you, influx, but at everyone I engage in debate with. It always falls into a relativistic trap where no argument seems to hold merit. I think the human mind can transcend this sort of illusion. It IS important what we believe, whether what we believe is "true" or not, it's what makes us fucking human! THAT's what I'm trying to get at here...
I don't really want any questions answered here, I want more questions.
psylichon
Message 4/188 24-Sep-02 @ 07:48 AM - RE: Faith
I didnt say so dont ask, though. I just cant say I have all that much to say about it since I cant claim expertise
"It IS important what we believe, whether what we believe is "true" or not, it's what makes us fucking human! "
and...I guess you missed MY point as well because I think I said the same thing?
"It IS important what we believe, whether what we believe is "true" or not, it's what makes us fucking human! "
and...I guess you missed MY point as well because I think I said the same thing?
Message 5/188 24-Sep-02 @ 07:53 AM - RE: Faith
You're right on that one... "Cant be proven. Doesnt matter one iota though, because it WORKS for people!"
Good point, so what works for you? There is no "expertise" on this subject.
psylichon
Good point, so what works for you? There is no "expertise" on this subject.
psylichon
Message 6/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:06 AM - RE: Faith
hmmm...well...I dont believe or disbelieve anything really. Agnostic I guess youd call me. Ive read a good deal about taoism and buddhism, and read the bible once while in jail 
Ive heard convincing arguments from Christians and have considered their faith, but havent...gone all the way with it.
Taoism appeals to me the most with the middle road ideal. Dont fight, but dont bow down either.
Ive heard convincing arguments from Christians and have considered their faith, but havent...gone all the way with it.Taoism appeals to me the most with the middle road ideal. Dont fight, but dont bow down either.
Message 7/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:32 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
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I believe our true nature can only be experienced not verbalised.
As Bruce Lee famously said in 'Enter the Dragon', 'Don't think- feel! It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't focus on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory!'
Then he beat the shit out of someone..
yesss!
As Bruce Lee famously said in 'Enter the Dragon', 'Don't think- feel! It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't focus on the finger or you will miss all the heavenly glory!'
Then he beat the shit out of someone..
yesss!
Message 8/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:40 AM - RE: Faith
Again, you guys are telling me about other people's beliefs. I know about them already.
I want to know your personal insights to the meaning of reality. It's a different kinda thing from ascribing a socially-recognized epithet to a belief system you can relate to. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then don't worry about it. Do I have to get things going?
psylichon
I want to know your personal insights to the meaning of reality. It's a different kinda thing from ascribing a socially-recognized epithet to a belief system you can relate to. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then don't worry about it. Do I have to get things going?
psylichon
Message 9/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:57 AM - RE: Faith
i have every faith in there being some heated debate and nothing being resolved in this thread.
Message 10/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:13 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
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psylichon:
'I believe our true nature can only be experienced not verbalised. '
Note the 'I believe', so I am in fact telling you what I believe.
'I believe our true nature can only be experienced not verbalised. '
Note the 'I believe', so I am in fact telling you what I believe.
Message 11/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:18 AM Edit: 24-Sep-02 | 10:18 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
If you want more detail I will say this;
At various times and in various places and situations it has become apparent to me that our sense of individuation from both each other and the rest of the universe is just one narrow view of what we truly are, which is part of an ultimately indivisible and conscious universe.
The reason I believe this is because I feel it to be so. I feel it to be so because I have looked inside myself and examined the nature of my experience and I have looked outside myself and examined the nature of everything around me.
Conclusion: all made of the same stuff.
At various times and in various places and situations it has become apparent to me that our sense of individuation from both each other and the rest of the universe is just one narrow view of what we truly are, which is part of an ultimately indivisible and conscious universe.
The reason I believe this is because I feel it to be so. I feel it to be so because I have looked inside myself and examined the nature of my experience and I have looked outside myself and examined the nature of everything around me.
Conclusion: all made of the same stuff.
Message 12/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:43 AM - RE: Faith
Not my crispy cod finger fillets me hearties!!... aaaarrr!... they're made from only the juiciest tenderest flakes of cod in a crisp breadcrub coating and nothing more!
Message 13/188 24-Sep-02 @ 11:12 AM Edit: 24-Sep-02 | 11:13 AM - RE: Faith
Well i'm made of better stuff than even Captain "dodgy perv" Birdseye's crispy cod, an' i thanks the lord for it, see?
An' if you 'aven't got the proper stardust in yer bones then yous all 'ave to learn the lord's lingo if you wanna get to 'eaven. so, repeat after me "dw i'n hoffi coffi". it's the only way, 'ri but?
An' if you 'aven't got the proper stardust in yer bones then yous all 'ave to learn the lord's lingo if you wanna get to 'eaven. so, repeat after me "dw i'n hoffi coffi". it's the only way, 'ri but?
Message 14/188 24-Sep-02 @ 11:18 AM - RE: Faith
pict
Posts: 1005
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Faith is passed down from generation to generation to a great extent what your parents believed will be what you believe until you mature enough to start thinking for yourself.I think that most people raised in a strictly religious backround that "stray" as you put it always have the niggling thought in the back of their heads that maybe their childhood religions view of the world is correct.The fact is all of these religions indoctrinate the children born to believers and make use of the parents belief to instil belief in the child.I think that Christianity matters a lot less to the majority of people in the west than what is in their bank account the great god Mammon and his manservant science has replaced the Christian god.If human beings could deal with each other without the encumbrance of religion which is in my opinion nothing more than than a collection of codified superstitions I think they would get along a lot better with each other at the very least one very prominent source of conflict would be removed from the equation.I think the idea of deferred gratification is bullshit and harmful to the human psyche be a good believer and endure all sorts of mindless rituals and don't worry if you're having a shit life because when you die you'll go to heaven for having been a good boy and toeing God's company line well fuck that.If we all lived our lives in the realisation that the only life we have or will ever have is the one we've got now I can't help but think that might go some way to creating a society or even a world where people actually tried to improve the quality of their lives a lot more actively.Theocrats have from time immemorial hijacked the sense of connection we have with other living things and used it to further their own ends in my opinion the purpose of life is simply to live which is why the idea of eternal life in the hereafter is such an effective marketing campaign mortals are attracted to the idea of immortality like moths to a flame and just as unthinkingly.
Message 15/188 24-Sep-02 @ 12:22 PM - RE: Faith
My freind always say we are a classroom biology project in a big glass box in a school classroom, the kids first made dinosaurs but got tired of their boring predictable behaviour so they got rid of them and started the human project instead....
Message 16/188 24-Sep-02 @ 12:26 PM - RE: Faith
i place my faith in my ability to doubt.
and sure, christianity does work... for putting power in the hands of fascists and tyrants.
don't you dare put anything in that collection plate, or i'll punch you, man!
and sure, christianity does work... for putting power in the hands of fascists and tyrants.
don't you dare put anything in that collection plate, or i'll punch you, man!
Message 17/188 24-Sep-02 @ 03:37 PM - RE: Faith
i have never been asked to expound on why i believe.... kinda a very personal subject.
some people approach religion from a 'lawyer' standpoint. they look at evidence on whether to even bother with religion or not and if they decide not to be a diest or agnostic they then line up all the religions and make comparison charts and that kinda stuff.
other people stumble into religion because of supernatural experiences. something happens to them that is more real than anything they have experienced in the physical realm. most people of a scientific mind are unable to accept this as true because they have rejected anything except what they can see and touch.
for me, it was the second way of finding god. or i suppose he found me.
i was like 13ish at a church youth group deal and had nothing more than an intellectual faith. well some guys prayed for me and i felt an overwhelming power rush over me. the only way i can explain it is for you to imagine the feelings of love you have for a girl. now multiply them times 100,000 until they fill up a space as big as the earth.... now compress that down into an area the size of your chest and put it back in your body... along with that every nerve of my body was pulsing on and off for like hours afterwards.
there was no hypnotism, no mind control, it was just some other 13ish type kid praying for me, laying hands on me.
well i have experienced that same sensation frequently through my life. in fact each time i go to pray in solitude or whenever i take communion. its the deepest, most enveloping sensation of love that can be experienced. better than the love i feel for my wife, better than the love i feel for my kids.
well because of this physical union with the creator of the universe, i found myself with an unshakable faith in god and his son jesus. i take the bible as true because of the true experience that happened, is happening, and will happen everytime i pray to him and seek him.
after college i started realizing that not everyone in the world thought like i do. and i can't blame them. i honestly don't think i would have become a christian if i had not experienced something that was absolutely and definately outside myself. now that i have experienced it, it is more real than anything i can understand. but not everyone has this advantage or even wants to bother to seek it.
so i found out there were a whole bunch of people on the planet who really don't like christianity. some people have valid reasons (crusades etc) and others are quite irrational (no offense xoxos buddy
there are people who say evolution is true, there are people who try and create myths about who christ was, there are people who try and malign the bible as fairy tales, there are people who have found 'spirits' that guide them that are not the creator (wicca, neo paganism etc) and therefore have misunderstandings about how things work and try to put them over on christians etc etc etc the list is literally INFINATE of the reasons put forth to disbelieve the bible.
i went thru every single one of these over the course of years and haven't found anything to shake what i now feel is the truth. its hard to argue with the feelings of love and ecstacy that come over me while praying.
in fact, at each point where i see the bible or the historical trueness of jesus attacked, i come away stronger. its very cool.
so anyway thats kinda why i am where i am at now.
i attend a charismatic episcopal church which is a wierd combination of rock type modern worship music combined with priests wearing robes and swinging incense and doing the eucharist etc. i love it and have found a community there of people who genuinely care. when my wife was in the hospital, priests came out and comforted/prayed for us. when we had our children, people brought us food for a week. the church feeds people that are hungry and runs a medical clinic for free two days a week so poor people in the community can get medical care. people are looking for true community and brotherhood and along with the wonderful feelings of love and peace that i get from my creator i share with my church as well. not all churches are the hypocritical greedy stereotypes that many people experience. i could write a book on why the church in america sucks. mine doesn't tho.
i dunno that i can convince anyone intellectually about belief in god, and really i think that defeats the purpose. each human on the planet was designed to commune with thier creator and we all have god shaped holes in our heart. some fill it with greed and pursuit of success, some fill it with drugs, some fill it with sex. but the condition of the person will never be satisfied until what was intended takes hold of their heart.
so good luck on your journey, if you need any advice feel free to email me at formant@bellsouth.net. i will say a prayer for you tonight.
jamey
some people approach religion from a 'lawyer' standpoint. they look at evidence on whether to even bother with religion or not and if they decide not to be a diest or agnostic they then line up all the religions and make comparison charts and that kinda stuff.
other people stumble into religion because of supernatural experiences. something happens to them that is more real than anything they have experienced in the physical realm. most people of a scientific mind are unable to accept this as true because they have rejected anything except what they can see and touch.
for me, it was the second way of finding god. or i suppose he found me.
i was like 13ish at a church youth group deal and had nothing more than an intellectual faith. well some guys prayed for me and i felt an overwhelming power rush over me. the only way i can explain it is for you to imagine the feelings of love you have for a girl. now multiply them times 100,000 until they fill up a space as big as the earth.... now compress that down into an area the size of your chest and put it back in your body... along with that every nerve of my body was pulsing on and off for like hours afterwards.
there was no hypnotism, no mind control, it was just some other 13ish type kid praying for me, laying hands on me.
well i have experienced that same sensation frequently through my life. in fact each time i go to pray in solitude or whenever i take communion. its the deepest, most enveloping sensation of love that can be experienced. better than the love i feel for my wife, better than the love i feel for my kids.
well because of this physical union with the creator of the universe, i found myself with an unshakable faith in god and his son jesus. i take the bible as true because of the true experience that happened, is happening, and will happen everytime i pray to him and seek him.
after college i started realizing that not everyone in the world thought like i do. and i can't blame them. i honestly don't think i would have become a christian if i had not experienced something that was absolutely and definately outside myself. now that i have experienced it, it is more real than anything i can understand. but not everyone has this advantage or even wants to bother to seek it.
so i found out there were a whole bunch of people on the planet who really don't like christianity. some people have valid reasons (crusades etc) and others are quite irrational (no offense xoxos buddy
there are people who say evolution is true, there are people who try and create myths about who christ was, there are people who try and malign the bible as fairy tales, there are people who have found 'spirits' that guide them that are not the creator (wicca, neo paganism etc) and therefore have misunderstandings about how things work and try to put them over on christians etc etc etc the list is literally INFINATE of the reasons put forth to disbelieve the bible.
i went thru every single one of these over the course of years and haven't found anything to shake what i now feel is the truth. its hard to argue with the feelings of love and ecstacy that come over me while praying.
in fact, at each point where i see the bible or the historical trueness of jesus attacked, i come away stronger. its very cool.
so anyway thats kinda why i am where i am at now.
i attend a charismatic episcopal church which is a wierd combination of rock type modern worship music combined with priests wearing robes and swinging incense and doing the eucharist etc. i love it and have found a community there of people who genuinely care. when my wife was in the hospital, priests came out and comforted/prayed for us. when we had our children, people brought us food for a week. the church feeds people that are hungry and runs a medical clinic for free two days a week so poor people in the community can get medical care. people are looking for true community and brotherhood and along with the wonderful feelings of love and peace that i get from my creator i share with my church as well. not all churches are the hypocritical greedy stereotypes that many people experience. i could write a book on why the church in america sucks. mine doesn't tho.
i dunno that i can convince anyone intellectually about belief in god, and really i think that defeats the purpose. each human on the planet was designed to commune with thier creator and we all have god shaped holes in our heart. some fill it with greed and pursuit of success, some fill it with drugs, some fill it with sex. but the condition of the person will never be satisfied until what was intended takes hold of their heart.
so good luck on your journey, if you need any advice feel free to email me at formant@bellsouth.net. i will say a prayer for you tonight.
jamey
Message 18/188 24-Sep-02 @ 03:46 PM - RE: Faith
everyone has faith... in the end, philosophically, there are very few things that can be proven. almost everything else rests on some assumptions, something you believe without proof.
science? all of science rests on an unspoken assumption - the laws of science never change (how the world works today, is how it will work tomorrow). we can never prove this.
similarly, i can not prove a 'spiritual' world, but yet i know it exists. i cannot even tell you how i know, i just know. if you've seen 'the matrix', well, that really surprised me because that's how i feel the real world is, not machines or whatever but that there is a world past this one, more real and more permanent.
and i am a christian because as i study it, the more i study it and see what god really says, who he really is, the more it resonates with what i see around me, what i see in reality.
the golden rule, that's part of christianity (and judaism before it). few have lived up to it but it's always been there. but there's a fundamental difference between god's version and the popular version.
the popular version, really, is something like 'do unto others as you would have them do to you, unless they do something to you you don't like, then feel free to kick their ass.'
god's version is 'do unto others as you would have them do to you.' full stop. that's it. nothing else. no conditions, no escape clauses.
the popular version leads one to believe 'well, i'm not perfect but i do pretty good, and the stuff i screwed up, well it doesn't really matter, i know it wasn't right but hey, i have good reasons for what i did. but i'm going to get those people back for what they did to me.'
christianity doesn't make any excuses. god demands perfection. can you do it?
if not, that's why jesus was sent. not only to restore us back to God (to revive us to life, a more permanent one), but also to enable us, right here and now, to better (and maybe eventually perfectly?) follow that golden rule, to always treat others properly. regardless of how they treat us. he won't make us do that, but if we want to he will enable us to.
jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk, right through torture and execution, during which his almost-last words were 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do.'
science? all of science rests on an unspoken assumption - the laws of science never change (how the world works today, is how it will work tomorrow). we can never prove this.
similarly, i can not prove a 'spiritual' world, but yet i know it exists. i cannot even tell you how i know, i just know. if you've seen 'the matrix', well, that really surprised me because that's how i feel the real world is, not machines or whatever but that there is a world past this one, more real and more permanent.
and i am a christian because as i study it, the more i study it and see what god really says, who he really is, the more it resonates with what i see around me, what i see in reality.
the golden rule, that's part of christianity (and judaism before it). few have lived up to it but it's always been there. but there's a fundamental difference between god's version and the popular version.
the popular version, really, is something like 'do unto others as you would have them do to you, unless they do something to you you don't like, then feel free to kick their ass.'
god's version is 'do unto others as you would have them do to you.' full stop. that's it. nothing else. no conditions, no escape clauses.
the popular version leads one to believe 'well, i'm not perfect but i do pretty good, and the stuff i screwed up, well it doesn't really matter, i know it wasn't right but hey, i have good reasons for what i did. but i'm going to get those people back for what they did to me.'
christianity doesn't make any excuses. god demands perfection. can you do it?
if not, that's why jesus was sent. not only to restore us back to God (to revive us to life, a more permanent one), but also to enable us, right here and now, to better (and maybe eventually perfectly?) follow that golden rule, to always treat others properly. regardless of how they treat us. he won't make us do that, but if we want to he will enable us to.
jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk, right through torture and execution, during which his almost-last words were 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do.'
Message 19/188 24-Sep-02 @ 05:19 PM - RE: Faith
Thank you Jamie, Nomad. That's exactly the goods I was looking for. Real, down to earth, personal experience.
When i was much younger (over 15 years ago), I was at a Christian conference with my mother that we went to every year. They have hands-on prayer sessions there, and I went up one night to have them pray for my asthma (which was pretty bad back then). My experience was not so euphoric, but I did feel an overwhelming sense of something beyond myself... perhaps for the first time in my life. My ashtma nearly disappeared for years.
Years down the road, I've noticed my asthma has kinda followed the "track record" of my faith. It's never gotten as bad as it was when I was younger (despite all my attempts to make it so with all the wonderful things I smoke), but it was definitely at its lowest level when my faith was strong. I've never forgotten the correlation.
The thing that dissapoints me is that throughout high school, I never felt a personal experience like that again to keep my faith strong. And believe me, I really wanted it... I would pray all the time, actively searching out for some kind of sign. I spent a lot of time really listening, and hearing nothing. After a while, I gave up.
Then after reading much on philosophy and science, I no longer felt the need for the metaphors of the church (any church, that is). To me, the whole concept of The Trinity, sacrifice, and redemption just seems entirely too complicated and unncessary. It's like everything else that's natural that humans take, try to explain and codify into law, an organization... it all gets too messy and human interests too often get in the way. I have a hard time putting my faith in a book written by humans. I don't think anyone really needs a book to know God. What would have happened if we never developed language? God would never be known to us?
Everywhere I look, I see the simplicity of nature and life. My faith is now powered by this simplicity. I find in modern science, paricularly partical physics, beautiful ways of looking at the world. Though many people think scientists are trying to remove the "need" for a god, they are more often than not proving his existence. Deeper and deeper symmetries are being discovered in an attempt to make the universe as simple to understand as possible.
I recognize that no theory will give a complete description of absolute reality. An equation on a piece of paper has no power to create a universe. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still try to find that equation! We were given the ability to probe our universe for a reason, and we keep coming up with incredibly clever ways to do it. I think the search may end up a great, never ending hall of mirrors, but at each turn we learn more about ourselves and humanity and what our place is in the universe.
I really have to go for now, but I have more to say...
psylichon
When i was much younger (over 15 years ago), I was at a Christian conference with my mother that we went to every year. They have hands-on prayer sessions there, and I went up one night to have them pray for my asthma (which was pretty bad back then). My experience was not so euphoric, but I did feel an overwhelming sense of something beyond myself... perhaps for the first time in my life. My ashtma nearly disappeared for years.
Years down the road, I've noticed my asthma has kinda followed the "track record" of my faith. It's never gotten as bad as it was when I was younger (despite all my attempts to make it so with all the wonderful things I smoke), but it was definitely at its lowest level when my faith was strong. I've never forgotten the correlation.
The thing that dissapoints me is that throughout high school, I never felt a personal experience like that again to keep my faith strong. And believe me, I really wanted it... I would pray all the time, actively searching out for some kind of sign. I spent a lot of time really listening, and hearing nothing. After a while, I gave up.
Then after reading much on philosophy and science, I no longer felt the need for the metaphors of the church (any church, that is). To me, the whole concept of The Trinity, sacrifice, and redemption just seems entirely too complicated and unncessary. It's like everything else that's natural that humans take, try to explain and codify into law, an organization... it all gets too messy and human interests too often get in the way. I have a hard time putting my faith in a book written by humans. I don't think anyone really needs a book to know God. What would have happened if we never developed language? God would never be known to us?
Everywhere I look, I see the simplicity of nature and life. My faith is now powered by this simplicity. I find in modern science, paricularly partical physics, beautiful ways of looking at the world. Though many people think scientists are trying to remove the "need" for a god, they are more often than not proving his existence. Deeper and deeper symmetries are being discovered in an attempt to make the universe as simple to understand as possible.
I recognize that no theory will give a complete description of absolute reality. An equation on a piece of paper has no power to create a universe. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't still try to find that equation! We were given the ability to probe our universe for a reason, and we keep coming up with incredibly clever ways to do it. I think the search may end up a great, never ending hall of mirrors, but at each turn we learn more about ourselves and humanity and what our place is in the universe.
I really have to go for now, but I have more to say...
psylichon
Message 20/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:26 PM - RE: Faith
I gathered from the intitial post on this thread that you were looking for a christian only perspective. You nearly said as much.
It strikes me as odd that you would admonish the crew in another thread for not allowing true debate and then hogtie our repsonses in this thread... Would you like the perspective of someone raised catholic who abandonded christianity? And why? For a very dedicated practice in another religion? I don't normaly talk about it because it's rarely welcomed, but perhaps a perspective outside of your immediate awareness might be desireable, such as it is.
I honestly get the impression that you wanted the likes of Jamey to respond and no one else. This does seem an odd place to solicit witnesses to the revival... If I'm mistaken, let me know.
e
It strikes me as odd that you would admonish the crew in another thread for not allowing true debate and then hogtie our repsonses in this thread... Would you like the perspective of someone raised catholic who abandonded christianity? And why? For a very dedicated practice in another religion? I don't normaly talk about it because it's rarely welcomed, but perhaps a perspective outside of your immediate awareness might be desireable, such as it is.
I honestly get the impression that you wanted the likes of Jamey to respond and no one else. This does seem an odd place to solicit witnesses to the revival... If I'm mistaken, let me know.
e
Message 21/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:50 PM - RE: Faith
Perhaps it came off that way, but all I really wanted is insight to deeper truths, if that makes any sense. I find this often comes through friendly debate, and a debate usually requires a differing opinion. I know a lot of people share my view of the world around here, so I called out to those who I know didn't. Know what I mean?
Certainly share anything you're willing to share. As long as it's about you, I'm interested. I'm not looking to be converted, nor to convert. I don't agree with evangelism. I do think we have a lot of common ground here, though, and that's what interests me the most...
psylichon
Certainly share anything you're willing to share. As long as it's about you, I'm interested. I'm not looking to be converted, nor to convert. I don't agree with evangelism. I do think we have a lot of common ground here, though, and that's what interests me the most...
psylichon
Message 22/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:56 PM - RE: Faith
Scott Digweed
Posts: 6
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Born and raised as a Roman Catholic, but I had influences from other faiths such as Hinduism, Judaism, and Christianity. And Aetheism too.
Truth is I don't think much about religeon anymore. Now that I don't worry about it, or any commitments, I have found peace, in that respect.
The most powerful feelings of love I have ever felt when listening to really great Trance music. And I do not use drugs. I can have the most profound reactions to Trance, it's like somebody or something inside the melodies and rhythmic beds that speaks to me. And my soul. It can be an incredible experience, unlike any other. Even better than an orgasm, possibly.
Scott
Truth is I don't think much about religeon anymore. Now that I don't worry about it, or any commitments, I have found peace, in that respect.
The most powerful feelings of love I have ever felt when listening to really great Trance music. And I do not use drugs. I can have the most profound reactions to Trance, it's like somebody or something inside the melodies and rhythmic beds that speaks to me. And my soul. It can be an incredible experience, unlike any other. Even better than an orgasm, possibly.
Scott
Message 23/188 24-Sep-02 @ 06:58 PM - RE: Faith
Scott Digweed
Posts: 6
Link?: No link
File?: No file
With that said, I have faith in myself and in my abilities. For one day, I will acheive what I have always dreamed of.
Scott
Scott
Message 24/188 24-Sep-02 @ 07:31 PM - RE: Faith
I was raised a catholic in a fairly devout family. We did not always attend mass but my mother was convinced. And we always went to important mass. I spent my childhood convinced of the inadequacy of my family religion. I cannot identify a time when I thought, "What a bunch of hooey" for the first time. I think I always thought that!
My disatisfaction with my family religion sent me a searchin' about the same time as the other rebellions I perpetrated, started about 13. This was the first time I did LSD as well, and I won't pretend that didn't have something to do with it. The drug experience broke down what I even saw then as my ego, or sense of the individual. I started opening my mind to what I'd always known, that there is no duality in our experience. Time is an easily indentified human construct, but the next step was the passing of events, one into the other... memories were all I had to verify the past and everyone had a different impression of them. So it became clear through my teenage years that there was only the immediacy of the moment, and everything else was illusion. Obviously this didn't jibe with my christian roots, so I discarded them. I spent several months with a Hopi Shaman taking mushrooms and peyote, finding my spirit animal etc... This had many lessons in immediacy but still imposed a concept of the universe that smacked of myth...
Unfortunately my beliefs also didn't allow for much personal responsibility and I spent 10 years of my life refusing to take any. I treated people badly and very selfishly because the moment was all there was. Then I had an epiphany, where I discovered that my behaviour was not bringing any lasting happiness. I met a teacher who casualy explained one evening that since there is no duality in our experience, then we can have no contempt for one another... like one hand hating the other. He was a tibetan Rinpoche I'd met through a friend. There's a long assed story in this that doesn't need going into here. Now I practice a form of Tibetan Buddhism... I try to be completely aware and present in each moment and remember to love everything as equal. This view brings up a naturaly flowing compassion, understanding there is no seperation or dichotomy between this and that... blah blah blah
My take on christianity, and why I left it? It has a creator. The creator god takes responsibility for this mess out of my hands. It's someone elses fault that sh*t's so f*cked up! And here's a handy mesiah figure connected directly to the source who, if I will just shrug off my sense of personal responsibility, will take care of everything! Through this view I feel we dig ourselves deeper into a pit of misunderstanding... which ultimately makes us unhappy!
I don't preach or share this unless asked, because I'm staunchly opposed to evangelism! I understand that other religions require witnessing and mission work, and respect first attempts at it...
e
My disatisfaction with my family religion sent me a searchin' about the same time as the other rebellions I perpetrated, started about 13. This was the first time I did LSD as well, and I won't pretend that didn't have something to do with it. The drug experience broke down what I even saw then as my ego, or sense of the individual. I started opening my mind to what I'd always known, that there is no duality in our experience. Time is an easily indentified human construct, but the next step was the passing of events, one into the other... memories were all I had to verify the past and everyone had a different impression of them. So it became clear through my teenage years that there was only the immediacy of the moment, and everything else was illusion. Obviously this didn't jibe with my christian roots, so I discarded them. I spent several months with a Hopi Shaman taking mushrooms and peyote, finding my spirit animal etc... This had many lessons in immediacy but still imposed a concept of the universe that smacked of myth...
Unfortunately my beliefs also didn't allow for much personal responsibility and I spent 10 years of my life refusing to take any. I treated people badly and very selfishly because the moment was all there was. Then I had an epiphany, where I discovered that my behaviour was not bringing any lasting happiness. I met a teacher who casualy explained one evening that since there is no duality in our experience, then we can have no contempt for one another... like one hand hating the other. He was a tibetan Rinpoche I'd met through a friend. There's a long assed story in this that doesn't need going into here. Now I practice a form of Tibetan Buddhism... I try to be completely aware and present in each moment and remember to love everything as equal. This view brings up a naturaly flowing compassion, understanding there is no seperation or dichotomy between this and that... blah blah blah
My take on christianity, and why I left it? It has a creator. The creator god takes responsibility for this mess out of my hands. It's someone elses fault that sh*t's so f*cked up! And here's a handy mesiah figure connected directly to the source who, if I will just shrug off my sense of personal responsibility, will take care of everything! Through this view I feel we dig ourselves deeper into a pit of misunderstanding... which ultimately makes us unhappy!
I don't preach or share this unless asked, because I'm staunchly opposed to evangelism! I understand that other religions require witnessing and mission work, and respect first attempts at it...
e
Message 26/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:19 PM - RE: Faith
Wow, errata, I can really relate to your story. Duality is an amazing illusion, to be sure. "One hand hating the other".... very nice. I've never heard it put that way.
Have you ever read Joseph Cambell's "The Power of Myth"?
This goes to anyone, not just e.
psylichon
Have you ever read Joseph Cambell's "The Power of Myth"?
This goes to anyone, not just e.
psylichon
Message 27/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:19 PM - RE: Faith
sure, that's valid. there's nomadic religions
where the shaman will eat the sacrement,
errrrrrrrr, mushrooms, and the hallucinogens
will pass unchanged in the shaman's urine,
but he will absorb the toxins. the tribe will then
drink his piss for their buzz, errrrrrrrrrr,
religious experience.
mmm, piss. :-)
where the shaman will eat the sacrement,
errrrrrrrr, mushrooms, and the hallucinogens
will pass unchanged in the shaman's urine,
but he will absorb the toxins. the tribe will then
drink his piss for their buzz, errrrrrrrrrr,
religious experience.
mmm, piss. :-)
Message 28/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:21 PM - RE: Faith
that is so ugly.
reading web trip reports on salvia d. one will encounter a tale of sinking into a floor made of packed fish. this runs parallel with chardin's eschatological hypothesis.. a universe completely made of life. i feel this is concurrent with the 'oneness' reports of people who align themselves with buddhism, et al. or with jamey's glee pals. "and i was filled with ecclasiastical glee"
i've been to a place where i felt more than anything, as a cell in a plant whose boundaries were beyond my perception, and great currents, as if the plant were swaying in a breeze. each cell was crying out in utter joy to the other cells, like those little sounds in that plateau track off spacecake.
sardines. no room for not-life.
hell, i've met an angel that came down out of the sky making a noise like two giant phasing turbine engines. crossed into other times and places. i've flown the trans love airways and got there on time, outside and sideways through time even.
i look at the world, and i see it devouring itself. i look at the things society promotes. take pleasure, enjoy life. i've worked in nursing homes and met people who looked really very much like they wanted more and were about to run out. i have met so many people who han't had any of these thoughts who seem very interested in aggrandising the physical experience.
the mother bending over her baby in the carriage.. thinking she was all alone.. or maybe letting me see. tickling her baby, until the baby is screaming, the baby is SCREAMING STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP TICKLING MEEEEE!!!! and the mother is going.. 'the tiger has got you..' she knows she has incensed her child into awareness of discomfort, trapped her child within misery, the world experience. her child will live now..
(i didn't.. i came back to help you see this.. really. died at childbirth)
my hypothesis is that life, this, serves a destructive function.. to trap the life cells within bodies and convince them they are real, so the life force is convinced of it's own mortality. flushing out the soul glut perhaps, god knows why, the world experience cycles round every so often.
but this is a hypothesis. it makes about as much sense as an afterlife you have to qualify for.
i certainly am not enthused by religions that run around proclaiming the need for abundant life.. go sit in a tub full of meal worms if you want that. life can get so nasty so fast i think you have to be really careful of it.. if i were caught promoting any sort of life whatsoever, it would be a discerning life..
i reckon river forest was right and the bacteria have got you all producing a poisonous planet they can thrive in.
because basically, you're boring the pants off of me. or you'd like to.. i've had all the experiences.. all of them.. and i reckon anyone speaking with any absolutes in mind is basically crippled.. like you know something? not really, matey, not really.
again, the matrix.. boooring.. true, illusion.. true, l. ron.. spring into action! jump, kick, parappa! aesthetogenesis cultivar a: just do it!
cultivar b: only with extreme forethought.
well, i don't know why, but all those images were there together, so they muust go together... uuh.. drool a little.. matrix cool
i said all of the x-periences. done it once, done it twice. the third time, i saw jesus, he was mexican, we went out swing dancing/dadaistic mind explosion techniques and i sort of came out feeling like a cali cuisine place when i should have been feeling thai. "next time i see god, i think i'll wear the red one.. have you seen my bronze sun medallion?"
which is like, i can do this thai or kali, works with bread and beans as well, so sod the lot i'm having tea.
awareness and doubt comprises my device. the world, all experience is a shrinky dink in comparison.
you see, with xian.. a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.. slip 'em 9 parts be kind to your neighbors and flyin thru space and 1 part rally to the xian cheer, rally, rally now..
that's the thing. xianity is a religion, and if a religion were anything real then there'd be no need to inform others.
isn't that a novel statement tho, like i said, dull. and robots. robots too.
you want cosmology, let's have a type-in bee.
i got no problem with what sort of lies you want to live by, except for when the plate goes round and you start hacking off little bits of my world and saying 'oh this is our themepark, you can't go here anymore.' persecute the christians. persecute anyone who is anything, because when it comes time to do the change up dance, they're the ones who are going to be pissing and moaning.
because you're crap to live with, that's why. bloody steeples all over the place. stupid cold weather.
reading web trip reports on salvia d. one will encounter a tale of sinking into a floor made of packed fish. this runs parallel with chardin's eschatological hypothesis.. a universe completely made of life. i feel this is concurrent with the 'oneness' reports of people who align themselves with buddhism, et al. or with jamey's glee pals. "and i was filled with ecclasiastical glee"
i've been to a place where i felt more than anything, as a cell in a plant whose boundaries were beyond my perception, and great currents, as if the plant were swaying in a breeze. each cell was crying out in utter joy to the other cells, like those little sounds in that plateau track off spacecake.
sardines. no room for not-life.
hell, i've met an angel that came down out of the sky making a noise like two giant phasing turbine engines. crossed into other times and places. i've flown the trans love airways and got there on time, outside and sideways through time even.
i look at the world, and i see it devouring itself. i look at the things society promotes. take pleasure, enjoy life. i've worked in nursing homes and met people who looked really very much like they wanted more and were about to run out. i have met so many people who han't had any of these thoughts who seem very interested in aggrandising the physical experience.
the mother bending over her baby in the carriage.. thinking she was all alone.. or maybe letting me see. tickling her baby, until the baby is screaming, the baby is SCREAMING STOP IT! STOP IT! STOP TICKLING MEEEEE!!!! and the mother is going.. 'the tiger has got you..' she knows she has incensed her child into awareness of discomfort, trapped her child within misery, the world experience. her child will live now..
(i didn't.. i came back to help you see this.. really. died at childbirth)
my hypothesis is that life, this, serves a destructive function.. to trap the life cells within bodies and convince them they are real, so the life force is convinced of it's own mortality. flushing out the soul glut perhaps, god knows why, the world experience cycles round every so often.
but this is a hypothesis. it makes about as much sense as an afterlife you have to qualify for.
i certainly am not enthused by religions that run around proclaiming the need for abundant life.. go sit in a tub full of meal worms if you want that. life can get so nasty so fast i think you have to be really careful of it.. if i were caught promoting any sort of life whatsoever, it would be a discerning life..
i reckon river forest was right and the bacteria have got you all producing a poisonous planet they can thrive in.
because basically, you're boring the pants off of me. or you'd like to.. i've had all the experiences.. all of them.. and i reckon anyone speaking with any absolutes in mind is basically crippled.. like you know something? not really, matey, not really.
again, the matrix.. boooring.. true, illusion.. true, l. ron.. spring into action! jump, kick, parappa! aesthetogenesis cultivar a: just do it!
cultivar b: only with extreme forethought.
well, i don't know why, but all those images were there together, so they muust go together... uuh.. drool a little.. matrix cool
i said all of the x-periences. done it once, done it twice. the third time, i saw jesus, he was mexican, we went out swing dancing/dadaistic mind explosion techniques and i sort of came out feeling like a cali cuisine place when i should have been feeling thai. "next time i see god, i think i'll wear the red one.. have you seen my bronze sun medallion?"
which is like, i can do this thai or kali, works with bread and beans as well, so sod the lot i'm having tea.
awareness and doubt comprises my device. the world, all experience is a shrinky dink in comparison.
you see, with xian.. a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.. slip 'em 9 parts be kind to your neighbors and flyin thru space and 1 part rally to the xian cheer, rally, rally now..
that's the thing. xianity is a religion, and if a religion were anything real then there'd be no need to inform others.
isn't that a novel statement tho, like i said, dull. and robots. robots too.
you want cosmology, let's have a type-in bee.
i got no problem with what sort of lies you want to live by, except for when the plate goes round and you start hacking off little bits of my world and saying 'oh this is our themepark, you can't go here anymore.' persecute the christians. persecute anyone who is anything, because when it comes time to do the change up dance, they're the ones who are going to be pissing and moaning.
because you're crap to live with, that's why. bloody steeples all over the place. stupid cold weather.
Message 29/188 24-Sep-02 @ 09:36 PM - RE: Faith
x - Do you really live like that or just have glimpses of it on more occasions than yer average joe? I mean, obviously one can't be dead to the world or they can't participate in it. Unless trancendental interference is the reason for your lame net connection, I'm assuming you're still with us, xoxos. Where's the line between your life and death? And why do you keep coming back?
psylichon
psylichon
Message 30/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:36 PM - RE: Faith
psychonil i suggest before you set about magnaminously solving poor old xoxos' problem with your incisive cross questioning you read the entirety of what i write instead of jumping to the parts that get you excited.
Message 31/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:36 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
nomad: 'science? all of science rests on an unspoken assumption - the laws of science never change (how the world works today, is how it will work tomorrow). we can never prove this. '
Well, it certainly isn't unspoken.. .. this issue has been and is investigated thoroughly by scientists, in fact some theories rely on the fact that the laws of physics are mutable over time and between universes..
nomad: 'jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk, right through torture and execution, during which his almost-last words were 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do.'
'My God, why have you forsaken me?' ring a bell?
Formant, your ephiphany/road to damascus thing is not exclusive to christianity... it is an experience available to anyone via an any number of means.. if christianity does it for you then cool, but it doesn't really say anything for christianity in particular.
psylichon : yup it's all around right enough.. just have to open your eyes and see...
The tibetan thing check out 'The myth of freedom' and 'Cutting through spiritual materialism' by Chogyam Trungpa, very cool guy, into sex and drugs and rock n roll before he passed on to whatever...
x: Awareness and doubt are the very things that tibetan buddhism suggests may be the way off the wheel of karma.. discriminating awareness is what they call it...
But, I always stay away from any organised spiritual thing cos it invariably gets tangled up with egos and runs riot one way or another... and nearly always turns into a 'them and us' pile of bullshit.. sigh
Well, it certainly isn't unspoken.. .. this issue has been and is investigated thoroughly by scientists, in fact some theories rely on the fact that the laws of physics are mutable over time and between universes..
nomad: 'jesus did not just talk the talk, he walked the walk, right through torture and execution, during which his almost-last words were 'father forgive them, for they know not what they do.'
'My God, why have you forsaken me?' ring a bell?
Formant, your ephiphany/road to damascus thing is not exclusive to christianity... it is an experience available to anyone via an any number of means.. if christianity does it for you then cool, but it doesn't really say anything for christianity in particular.
psylichon : yup it's all around right enough.. just have to open your eyes and see...
The tibetan thing check out 'The myth of freedom' and 'Cutting through spiritual materialism' by Chogyam Trungpa, very cool guy, into sex and drugs and rock n roll before he passed on to whatever...
x: Awareness and doubt are the very things that tibetan buddhism suggests may be the way off the wheel of karma.. discriminating awareness is what they call it...
But, I always stay away from any organised spiritual thing cos it invariably gets tangled up with egos and runs riot one way or another... and nearly always turns into a 'them and us' pile of bullshit.. sigh
Message 32/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:44 PM - RE: Faith
well i wasn't expecting this to become a debate forum (though i should have expected it , seemed like more of a 'raw data gathering' type thing.
yeah, i'm aware of that statement. i do not know how the two are juxtaposed at the resurrection, they are not in the same book.
and i wasn't implying that it was a 'dirty secret' or anything, just that science itself relies on an assumption for its proof too, i'm sure most scientists are aware of it. varying laws over time? those variations themselves are governed by laws i assume as well, so this doesn't add anything, it's just a differential of the same concept.
, seemed like more of a 'raw data gathering' type thing.yeah, i'm aware of that statement. i do not know how the two are juxtaposed at the resurrection, they are not in the same book.
and i wasn't implying that it was a 'dirty secret' or anything, just that science itself relies on an assumption for its proof too, i'm sure most scientists are aware of it. varying laws over time? those variations themselves are governed by laws i assume as well, so this doesn't add anything, it's just a differential of the same concept.
Message 33/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:46 PM - RE: Faith
"But, I always stay away from any organised spiritual thing cos it invariably gets tangled up with egos and runs riot one way or another... and nearly always turns into a 'them and us' pile of bullshit.. sigh"
Couldn't agree with you more. One must keep his about him in these waters.
e
Couldn't agree with you more. One must keep his about him in these waters.
e
Message 34/188 24-Sep-02 @ 10:57 PM - RE: Faith
x - I don't think you have a problem to be solved, just ideas to be understood. I commented on the part of your post I understood the best (or at least thought I did). If you don't want to talk about it, fine.
I'm sorry none of us are at your level, xoxos. And I mean that wholeheartedly. Sometimes I just want to know more of where you're coming from. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
psylichon
I'm sorry none of us are at your level, xoxos. And I mean that wholeheartedly. Sometimes I just want to know more of where you're coming from. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
psylichon
Message 35/188 24-Sep-02 @ 11:01 PM Edit: 24-Sep-02 | 11:11 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
These conversations really hurt my brain after a days lectures at college so, as allways, I will not get too involved. But I will let you know something that I found frightening today, as it involves faith to some extent.
When I got home, I was just about to do the dishes, etc., when I heard the doorbell go. When I opened the door there were two extremely clean, blonde and tidy gentlemen stood there (they were frighteningly plastic, reminiscent of Hitlers Super-Race). The one on the right started off by telling me that they had been speaking to my neighbours about 'death'. They also wanted to know if this subject interested me. By this point I figured that these fellows were Jehova's Witnesses but I was quite freaked out by these guys and, rather than close the door, I succumbed to their sales ploy. I had never bothered to learn about these '7th Day Adventus' people so was quite shocked to learn that they believe that the world is going to end in a few years and they have beleived the world will end in a few years for a great deal longer than a few years. Not only that, but they also beleive that Heaven only has room for 144,000 souls and so when the saviour comes to kill everyone, all of the 'Good' people will rise from the dust and will be stuck in this place FOREVER, rather than be rewarded with heaven.
I'm sorry to say that there is no way in hell that I could have faith in anything like this. Or any form of religion, or God for that matter. As far as I can see, if God cared one iota about humans, or if they loved us AT ALL, they would not have given us these bizzarre religions. It seems like a complete mockery of all who have faith! After experiences such as this, I am still having trouble putting faith in my own existence. It's all to wierd. Descartes didn't even think this problem through far enough, as I sometimes wonder (usually at 4am after much wine) if ones own thought is any proof of existence at all. Even thought gets too strange.
Regards.
Steve.
When I got home, I was just about to do the dishes, etc., when I heard the doorbell go. When I opened the door there were two extremely clean, blonde and tidy gentlemen stood there (they were frighteningly plastic, reminiscent of Hitlers Super-Race). The one on the right started off by telling me that they had been speaking to my neighbours about 'death'. They also wanted to know if this subject interested me. By this point I figured that these fellows were Jehova's Witnesses but I was quite freaked out by these guys and, rather than close the door, I succumbed to their sales ploy. I had never bothered to learn about these '7th Day Adventus' people so was quite shocked to learn that they believe that the world is going to end in a few years and they have beleived the world will end in a few years for a great deal longer than a few years. Not only that, but they also beleive that Heaven only has room for 144,000 souls and so when the saviour comes to kill everyone, all of the 'Good' people will rise from the dust and will be stuck in this place FOREVER, rather than be rewarded with heaven.
I'm sorry to say that there is no way in hell that I could have faith in anything like this. Or any form of religion, or God for that matter. As far as I can see, if God cared one iota about humans, or if they loved us AT ALL, they would not have given us these bizzarre religions. It seems like a complete mockery of all who have faith! After experiences such as this, I am still having trouble putting faith in my own existence. It's all to wierd. Descartes didn't even think this problem through far enough, as I sometimes wonder (usually at 4am after much wine) if ones own thought is any proof of existence at all. Even thought gets too strange.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 36/188 24-Sep-02 @ 11:17 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Can u imagine coming 144,001st?
bummer
bummer
Message 37/188 24-Sep-02 @ 11:23 PM - RE: Faith
listen mate, you're name's not on the list, you're not coming in, i don't care if you do know paul.
Message 38/188 24-Sep-02 @ 11:23 PM - RE: Faith
"ahh man", standing at the gate as the horde follows the glowing man on the white horse in. "Hook a brotha up man! Number 144,001!!!! What's that sh*t? Damn..."
Looking for ways to climb the fence... sneak in past security... etc
The idea that this paradise has a finite amount of space is sort of rediculous. And if there is a finite space in heaven, why does the creator continue to allow more and more souls?... more and more people abandonded to the earthly confines of our floating blue ball.
e
Looking for ways to climb the fence... sneak in past security... etc
The idea that this paradise has a finite amount of space is sort of rediculous. And if there is a finite space in heaven, why does the creator continue to allow more and more souls?... more and more people abandonded to the earthly confines of our floating blue ball.
e
Message 39/188 24-Sep-02 @ 11:38 PM - RE: Faith
Sometimes people forget what a metaphor is and they start worshipping the literal dogmas of their faith. Where does this stuff come from? 144,000? A thousand gross... nice round number I suppose...
Even more subtle metaphors can be found in more common faiths, though. I see a Bible full of em.
psylichon
Even more subtle metaphors can be found in more common faiths, though. I see a Bible full of em.
psylichon
Message 40/188 25-Sep-02 @ 12:08 AM - RE: Faith
"learn about these '7th Day Adventus' people "
adventists.
I will say this...religion...faith...in and of itself is a pure process, but it is WE who ruin it by applying our perception
144k? give me a fucking break
adventists.
I will say this...religion...faith...in and of itself is a pure process, but it is WE who ruin it by applying our perception
144k? give me a fucking break
Message 41/188 25-Sep-02 @ 12:19 AM - RE: Faith
"religion...faith...in and of itself is a pure process"
Absolutely. The damage is done by coniving egoists, not the doctrine. Most new testament stuff is hard to argue with... except (for me) where it endeavors to explain the nature of our experience.
e
Absolutely. The damage is done by coniving egoists, not the doctrine. Most new testament stuff is hard to argue with... except (for me) where it endeavors to explain the nature of our experience.
e
Message 42/188 25-Sep-02 @ 12:47 AM - RE: Faith
e - "The damage is done by coniving egoists"
I think this is a bit harsh. I mean, yes, there are people in the world are are hell-bent on misleading people for their own purposes. But they are in the vast minority, I'll bet. Most people don't realize when they're letting human interests get in the way of true spirituality. And others just follow the road set for them by their predecessors. We're all a bit selfish, but religious leaders aren't necessarily more so just because they lead a congregation. Know what I mean?
psylichon
I think this is a bit harsh. I mean, yes, there are people in the world are are hell-bent on misleading people for their own purposes. But they are in the vast minority, I'll bet. Most people don't realize when they're letting human interests get in the way of true spirituality. And others just follow the road set for them by their predecessors. We're all a bit selfish, but religious leaders aren't necessarily more so just because they lead a congregation. Know what I mean?
psylichon
Message 43/188 25-Sep-02 @ 04:49 AM - RE: Faith
nah. definitely not. and I dont think thats what E meant either...
Message 44/188 25-Sep-02 @ 07:22 AM - RE: Faith
Just read it again. Yeah you're probably right. I read into things sometimes.
psylichon
psylichon
Message 45/188 25-Sep-02 @ 10:50 AM Edit: 25-Sep-02 | 02:56 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
"but it is WE who ruin it by applying our perception "
But isn't that the point! Humans will invariably screw things up in this way. It's in our nature. Now, I'm not saying that all humans are like this and I agree that there are cases where religion works. BUT, there are a great deal of assholes out there who are either too stupid to understand the point of religious and spiritual teachings, or are so damned selfish and manipulative that they use religion for their own non-spiritual gain. Put these people together and you have power-hungry monsters using religion to control masses of fools (sound familiar???). As far as I can see, these people, the people who don't think and the people who suffer from greed and ignorance, make up the greater number of the human race and until we learn how to deal with these people, religion, politics and many other systems that rely on human thought will not work. This is an age-old philisophical problem: how do we deal with the majority; the idiots? Until we figure this out, I will not take stock in any religion as it will be misinterpreted and it will be used to mislead people. Until we learn enough about ourselves behaviourally, I, personally, feel that religion and the learning of our spirituality is too dangerous. Hence the reason that I don't beleive in God. God, would have perceived the monstrosities that religion would be responsible for and if they cared for humans, they would not have given us these beliefs.
Regards.
Steve.
But isn't that the point! Humans will invariably screw things up in this way. It's in our nature. Now, I'm not saying that all humans are like this and I agree that there are cases where religion works. BUT, there are a great deal of assholes out there who are either too stupid to understand the point of religious and spiritual teachings, or are so damned selfish and manipulative that they use religion for their own non-spiritual gain. Put these people together and you have power-hungry monsters using religion to control masses of fools (sound familiar???). As far as I can see, these people, the people who don't think and the people who suffer from greed and ignorance, make up the greater number of the human race and until we learn how to deal with these people, religion, politics and many other systems that rely on human thought will not work. This is an age-old philisophical problem: how do we deal with the majority; the idiots? Until we figure this out, I will not take stock in any religion as it will be misinterpreted and it will be used to mislead people. Until we learn enough about ourselves behaviourally, I, personally, feel that religion and the learning of our spirituality is too dangerous. Hence the reason that I don't beleive in God. God, would have perceived the monstrosities that religion would be responsible for and if they cared for humans, they would not have given us these beliefs.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 46/188 25-Sep-02 @ 03:21 PM - RE: Faith
Maybe he's just an old git. You'd get bored being god after a while though. I tried it once but that omnipresence got to me, I was just all over the place.
ok, i'll get me goat. sorry, coat.
ok, i'll get me goat. sorry, coat.
Message 47/188 25-Sep-02 @ 06:56 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
If God is omnipotent then he can do anything right?
So, can he make a mistake?
So, can he make a mistake?
Message 48/188 25-Sep-02 @ 07:03 PM - RE: Faith
You guys are thinking anthropomorphically or whatever the hell it's called.
God doesn't DO anything. God IS everything. God can't make a "mistake" because there's no such thing as a mistake. Even a freakish, asteroid death to all of us this evening wouldn't be a mistake.
Humans are so selfish when it comes to cosmological scales.
psylichon
God doesn't DO anything. God IS everything. God can't make a "mistake" because there's no such thing as a mistake. Even a freakish, asteroid death to all of us this evening wouldn't be a mistake.
Humans are so selfish when it comes to cosmological scales.
psylichon
Message 49/188 25-Sep-02 @ 07:16 PM - RE: Faith
of course we're thinking anthropomorphically. if there's an error there, it's to think that whatever conscienceness God has is down on our level.
a god that is everything and does nothing, is functionally equivalent to no god existing at all, and we are only playing games with semantics at that point.
a god that is everything and does nothing, is functionally equivalent to no god existing at all, and we are only playing games with semantics at that point.
Message 50/188 25-Sep-02 @ 07:24 PM - RE: Faith
N- " god that is everything and does nothing, is functionally equivalent to no god existing at all"
I don't agree with that. I think that all the crazy interactions in the universe... all the "doing", really is a bunch of hooie. You're not really "doing" anything, just like time isn't really "passing." Just like too many quotes are "annoying"
God is the great non-doer. He just _is_. That's why meditation/prayer/drugs/trance makes you feel closer to God. You're breaking down your normal connections of space and time and reality; "stopping the world"
That was my first yellow smiley, by the way. It hurt. I'll never do it again.
psylichon
I don't agree with that. I think that all the crazy interactions in the universe... all the "doing", really is a bunch of hooie. You're not really "doing" anything, just like time isn't really "passing." Just like too many quotes are "annoying"
God is the great non-doer. He just _is_. That's why meditation/prayer/drugs/trance makes you feel closer to God. You're breaking down your normal connections of space and time and reality; "stopping the world"
That was my first yellow smiley, by the way. It hurt. I'll never do it again.
psylichon
Message 51/188 25-Sep-02 @ 07:34 PM - RE: Faith
AGREED with P!!!.... it's SO true... Humans are so full of shit they cant even envisage the existance of the planet without them being part of it... ha!!..
Where ARE those Insect Overlords when you really need them!! - damn!
Where ARE those Insect Overlords when you really need them!!
- damn!
Message 52/188 25-Sep-02 @ 07:51 PM - RE: Faith
sure, i know the world could and will go on without me, or without any humans. that's not my point.
the point is, that what you are saying flies in the face of the way most people think of God. you can make that statement if you want, but be aware that you are redefining what most people mean when they say 'god'. in logic, we call that 'equivocation'. (oh yeah, i prefer single quotes. and why do the smileys get converted to those annoying yellow circles?)
the point is, that what you are saying flies in the face of the way most people think of God. you can make that statement if you want, but be aware that you are redefining what most people mean when they say 'god'. in logic, we call that 'equivocation'. (oh yeah, i prefer single quotes. and why do the smileys get converted to those annoying yellow circles?)
Message 55/188 25-Sep-02 @ 10:11 PM - RE: Faith
lol!!!... what'dya call a raver sitting in the corner of the bank?
Safe
Safe
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 56/188 25-Sep-02 @ 10:26 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
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If God is everything, what is NOT everything?
If there is something that is NOT everything then it can't be God can it?
If there is something that is NOT everything then it can't be God can it?
Message 57/188 25-Sep-02 @ 10:32 PM Edit: 25-Sep-02 | 10:32 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Tee-hee-hee! Nice one K! :P
Regards.
Steve.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 58/188 25-Sep-02 @ 10:33 PM - RE: Faith
oh, bollocks to it, i'm off down the pub for last orders.
Message 59/188 25-Sep-02 @ 10:35 PM - RE: Faith
"If there is something that is NOT everything then it can't be God can it?"
I don't understand this. It is my belief that God (and I use the word symbolically, of course) is EVERYTHING, and there is nothing that isn't a reflection of God. And while everything might seem like a lot of stuff to us, a lot of seperate things and events and actions; in God's scale, everything is unified and symmetrical and such concepts of me and you and right and wrong are nothing but misconceptions of a lower-dimensional race who thinks their view is from the top.
psylichon
I don't understand this. It is my belief that God (and I use the word symbolically, of course) is EVERYTHING, and there is nothing that isn't a reflection of God. And while everything might seem like a lot of stuff to us, a lot of seperate things and events and actions; in God's scale, everything is unified and symmetrical and such concepts of me and you and right and wrong are nothing but misconceptions of a lower-dimensional race who thinks their view is from the top.
psylichon
Message 60/188 25-Sep-02 @ 11:12 PM - RE: Faith
zen man!... ok... so what do you call a raver sitting in the corner of the post office?
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 63/188 26-Sep-02 @ 12:28 PM - RE: Faith
lol!... old but gold!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 64/188 26-Sep-02 @ 03:26 PM - RE: Faith
so there are two lines of thinking about how we know what god is like...
1) we get to decide what he is like and make up and ascribe any characterists about him that we want to.
2) we trust humans who have had interactions with him directly in the past to tell us what he is like as he described himself.
to me number 1 is stupid. anyone can make up anything they want about god and that doesn't make it true. heck we can't even agree on items we have tons of evidence on in the physical realm. so now anyone's whim about what god may be like is valid?
to me number 2 is the better way. but it requires that you put trust in written historical accounts. of course there is reason to believe or disbelieve various accounts etc. you have to sort thru all that stuff and some people will never trust *anything* any person has written and resort to number 1.
in either way of 'knowing about god' you have the personal experience. some people limit their experience to the natural realm, others take it to the supernatural. you can do 1 or 2 from a natural or supernatural experiential viewpoint.
so i take it me and nomad are of persuasion 2 and everyone else here is liking 1.
thoughts on that?
jamey
1) we get to decide what he is like and make up and ascribe any characterists about him that we want to.
2) we trust humans who have had interactions with him directly in the past to tell us what he is like as he described himself.
to me number 1 is stupid. anyone can make up anything they want about god and that doesn't make it true. heck we can't even agree on items we have tons of evidence on in the physical realm. so now anyone's whim about what god may be like is valid?
to me number 2 is the better way. but it requires that you put trust in written historical accounts. of course there is reason to believe or disbelieve various accounts etc. you have to sort thru all that stuff and some people will never trust *anything* any person has written and resort to number 1.
in either way of 'knowing about god' you have the personal experience. some people limit their experience to the natural realm, others take it to the supernatural. you can do 1 or 2 from a natural or supernatural experiential viewpoint.
so i take it me and nomad are of persuasion 2 and everyone else here is liking 1.
thoughts on that?
jamey
Message 65/188 26-Sep-02 @ 03:53 PM Edit: 26-Sep-02 | 03:58 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
The problem that I have with faith, God and faith in God, stems from taking option two all of my life. I just feel that all of the historical accounts are so utterly rediculous and somewhat limited that there is no way that I will ever believe any of it! Not only that but putting faith in what is said by others creates the possibility for the holders of this 'knowledge' to manipulate and control the lesser-minded followers. Which, I am sure you don't need to be told is very, very dangerous. So, I will watch from the side-lines if you dont mind.
Regards.
Steve.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 66/188 26-Sep-02 @ 04:10 PM - RE: Faith
so you feel that option 2 is unreliable and option 1 is not valid so you don't participate.
i think thats what most people do out in the general population. well they probably do 2 and if they get disenfranchised they jump to 1 or none...
jamey
i think thats what most people do out in the general population. well they probably do 2 and if they get disenfranchised they jump to 1 or none...
jamey
Message 67/188 26-Sep-02 @ 05:27 PM Edit: 26-Sep-02 | 05:29 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Not quite. I don't really agree with option 1 at all! My father is a DR in linguistics and as a child I was tormented with double meanings and semantics so I don't appreciate it when people create their own meanings for things. It drives me mad (one of those neuroses that parents are so damned good at generating in their children). I have allways preferred to let people tell me what God is and I just ignore them.
But, yes; I feel that option 2 is unreliable as what we are told about God, and so on, is too bizzarre for me and it is open to abuse.
Regards.
Steve.
But, yes; I feel that option 2 is unreliable as what we are told about God, and so on, is too bizzarre for me and it is open to abuse.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 68/188 26-Sep-02 @ 06:51 PM - RE: Faith
"2) we trust humans ...."
Those words alone are enough to invalidate method 2, as far as I'm concerned. And I'd like to add a third moethod of knowing God, an edited version of #1:
3) we get to DISCOVER what he is like and DISCERN any characterists about him that we CAN.
Scientists rarely talk about God in the lab, but many of them are devoutly spiritual after the discoveries of the past few decades. When I talk about God as the simplest form, it's not to fulfill my desire for his form, it's to agree with the mathematical model of pure symmetry, total unification. Non-local spacetime events were once the subject of science fiction and miracles. Now they do that sort of thing all the time.
I don't place all my faith in science (it WILL NOT give us the "final answer"), but I think it can draw a great map for spirituality. If science can, in any way, break through the illusion of the senses and give us an idea greater than ourselves, then things can really start to change.
It's like a road map. You could have a map of a city that is detailed and correct in every conceivable manner, but until you actually go down the roads, you won't really KNOW the city.
And I wouldn't put all my faith in people's accounts of their road trip, either.
psylichon
Those words alone are enough to invalidate method 2, as far as I'm concerned. And I'd like to add a third moethod of knowing God, an edited version of #1:
3) we get to DISCOVER what he is like and DISCERN any characterists about him that we CAN.
Scientists rarely talk about God in the lab, but many of them are devoutly spiritual after the discoveries of the past few decades. When I talk about God as the simplest form, it's not to fulfill my desire for his form, it's to agree with the mathematical model of pure symmetry, total unification. Non-local spacetime events were once the subject of science fiction and miracles. Now they do that sort of thing all the time.
I don't place all my faith in science (it WILL NOT give us the "final answer"), but I think it can draw a great map for spirituality. If science can, in any way, break through the illusion of the senses and give us an idea greater than ourselves, then things can really start to change.
It's like a road map. You could have a map of a city that is detailed and correct in every conceivable manner, but until you actually go down the roads, you won't really KNOW the city.
And I wouldn't put all my faith in people's accounts of their road trip, either.
psylichon
Message 70/188 26-Sep-02 @ 08:43 PM - RE: Faith
yay 4 ched
#3 - if you shut up the mind all will be music what sculpture of sound cannot what cannot et c.
still brewing a notion to do 'storm the studio #1' ie. it's genocide oh can't you see et c. in that one 'fly my beautiful balloon' style.. got a catchy banjo riff.
anyway. if no one ever told you anythnig about god it'd be a lot better for seeing eh?
unlearn, you must :p
die religion die
#3 - if you shut up the mind all will be music what sculpture of sound cannot what cannot et c.
still brewing a notion to do 'storm the studio #1' ie. it's genocide oh can't you see et c. in that one 'fly my beautiful balloon' style.. got a catchy banjo riff.
anyway. if no one ever told you anythnig about god it'd be a lot better for seeing eh?
unlearn, you must :p
die religion die
Message 71/188 26-Sep-02 @ 09:39 PM - RE: Faith
can we get rid of calculus while we're at it? at least the integration part? i didn't like it either.
... erm.
personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me.
if the universe is ordered, if the universe has simplicity (whatever that is... simplicity rarely exists in the real world, it is an abstraction that lets our feeble minds appreciate, use, and break down the complexity that exists)... even so, how does this make it god? or a person of any kind?
if you think it does, i'd like to hear it, because it doesn't make sense to me, and maybe you can make it make sense.
if you don't think it does, then we're back to using the same word two different ways.
i know that the appreciation of these things, the appropriation of truth into our minds, often leads to a joy and an emotional experience that seems 'spiritual'. but if these things are god, we must ask a question: why? why do these things echo in our mind, resonate in our soul? does our pancreas explode with similar delight when it discovers its place in a human body? is a star flooded with emotion when it realizes the order in its galaxy? what is different about man?
and i will say again, functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?
and if you say that god is 'laws of the universe, relationships, etc' like knowledge that are sort of 'apart' from what 'is', how is this any different from any other physical phenomena, or the once-proposed 'aether' holding everything together etc?
... erm.
personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me.
if the universe is ordered, if the universe has simplicity (whatever that is... simplicity rarely exists in the real world, it is an abstraction that lets our feeble minds appreciate, use, and break down the complexity that exists)... even so, how does this make it god? or a person of any kind?
if you think it does, i'd like to hear it, because it doesn't make sense to me, and maybe you can make it make sense.
if you don't think it does, then we're back to using the same word two different ways.
i know that the appreciation of these things, the appropriation of truth into our minds, often leads to a joy and an emotional experience that seems 'spiritual'. but if these things are god, we must ask a question: why? why do these things echo in our mind, resonate in our soul? does our pancreas explode with similar delight when it discovers its place in a human body? is a star flooded with emotion when it realizes the order in its galaxy? what is different about man?
and i will say again, functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?
and if you say that god is 'laws of the universe, relationships, etc' like knowledge that are sort of 'apart' from what 'is', how is this any different from any other physical phenomena, or the once-proposed 'aether' holding everything together etc?
Message 72/188 26-Sep-02 @ 10:21 PM - RE: Faith
Wow this thing hurt my head... Errata and Psylichon, reading your experiences are like deja vu to me..
I believe in some sort of entity beyond this world. I do not know what kind of influence it has on those who dwell here, myself included, but I believe we are all a part of, or at least connected to, said entity. This is what shapes (what I hope is) my open-minded attitude towards other people, and my tendency to be argumentative with those who tend to take what they're told as law when in reality there exists no true way to prove or disprove what they say.
The important thing in all this, I think, is that I came to this conclusion by interpreting my own feelings and experiences. Just as Jamey came to his spirituality through his epiphany, for lack of a better term. Both are valid, and I think that all religions are simply culturally-influenced doctrines which attempt to explain the entity I feel is present, but don't feel is adequately explained by any formal religious doctrine.
Make sense? Probably not, but when you think about it from a scientist's perspective neither does religion
-Craig
I believe in some sort of entity beyond this world. I do not know what kind of influence it has on those who dwell here, myself included, but I believe we are all a part of, or at least connected to, said entity. This is what shapes (what I hope is) my open-minded attitude towards other people, and my tendency to be argumentative with those who tend to take what they're told as law when in reality there exists no true way to prove or disprove what they say.
The important thing in all this, I think, is that I came to this conclusion by interpreting my own feelings and experiences. Just as Jamey came to his spirituality through his epiphany, for lack of a better term. Both are valid, and I think that all religions are simply culturally-influenced doctrines which attempt to explain the entity I feel is present, but don't feel is adequately explained by any formal religious doctrine.
Make sense? Probably not, but when you think about it from a scientist's perspective neither does religion
-Craig
Message 73/188 26-Sep-02 @ 10:42 PM - RE: Faith
"all religions are simply culturally-influenced doctrines which attempt to explain the entity"
Again I ask, has anyone read Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" ?
It talks exactly about what you're saying here, Craig. It speaks of archtypes and metaphors that have been with humanity for all of recorded history (and beyond). These images and ideas are constantly recurring in our stories, our myths, our dreams, and of course, our religions. It's a seriously DEEP book and I bet 99% of the people reading this thread would REALLY dig it.
It's just a beautiful view of the human condition. Check it out...
psylichon
Again I ask, has anyone read Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" ?
It talks exactly about what you're saying here, Craig. It speaks of archtypes and metaphors that have been with humanity for all of recorded history (and beyond). These images and ideas are constantly recurring in our stories, our myths, our dreams, and of course, our religions. It's a seriously DEEP book and I bet 99% of the people reading this thread would REALLY dig it.
It's just a beautiful view of the human condition. Check it out...
psylichon
Message 75/188 27-Sep-02 @ 12:02 AM - RE: Faith
Okay, I know I initially said only personal experiences here, not other people's ideas, but we all knew that wouldn't last... so....
Joseph Campbell's stuff is just too appropriate for the thread. Just to whet yer whistle:
"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. "
"God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."
"Follow your bliss and doors will open where there were no doors before."
"I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive."
"We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."
"Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths." (LOVE that one)
"A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself."
http://www.soultospirit.com/teachers/quotes/jcampqt.asp
(Lots of good stuff there)
Damn, now I'd like to know what you guys have read on this subject. Oh well, I started the thread, I can change its guidelines, right?
psylichon
Joseph Campbell's stuff is just too appropriate for the thread. Just to whet yer whistle:
"Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. "
"God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that."
"Follow your bliss and doors will open where there were no doors before."
"I don't believe people are looking for the meaning of life as much as they are looking for the experience of being alive."
"We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us."
"Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths." (LOVE that one)
"A hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself."
http://www.soultospirit.com/teachers/quotes/jcampqt.asp
(Lots of good stuff there)
Damn, now I'd like to know what you guys have read on this subject. Oh well, I started the thread, I can change its guidelines, right?
psylichon
Message 76/188 27-Sep-02 @ 12:15 AM - RE: Faith
Ah... missed one of your posts there, nomad.
"can we get rid of calculus while we're at it?"
Actually, a popular way that scientists look at the universe today involves a process called renormalization which (in simplified terms) never allows for infinite reduction. This agrees with quantum field theory. There is a minimum length in our universe, and therefore finite answers can be found without calculus. Actually, with basic algebra. Yay!
"personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me."
Well, I'm saying when you get right down to it, the artist and the art really ARE unified. At least that's how it seems to me.
"functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?"
NOW you're starting to see. The universe simply IS, but it couldn't BE without some sort of creative force that I call GOD. This creative force is reflected in EVERYthing. But the mere fact that we see our universe and our souls as divided instead of united with God is strange and mysterious, indeed.
I'm kinda starting to think that if the universe remained unified, there could be no creation. Maybe the division of space and time was the birth of creation. Perhaps "creativity" is such a driving force, it simply had to exist, and made and continues to make our world today...?
I'm gonna go do a bong hit now.
psylichon
"can we get rid of calculus while we're at it?"
Actually, a popular way that scientists look at the universe today involves a process called renormalization which (in simplified terms) never allows for infinite reduction. This agrees with quantum field theory. There is a minimum length in our universe, and therefore finite answers can be found without calculus. Actually, with basic algebra. Yay!
"personally, it looks like you are looking at the artwork, and wanting to call that the artist. that doesn't make any sense to me."
Well, I'm saying when you get right down to it, the artist and the art really ARE unified. At least that's how it seems to me.
"functionally, such a god is equivalent to no god. if the universe simply was, with no god behind it (as you say that god merely is everything), would we notice the difference?"
NOW you're starting to see. The universe simply IS, but it couldn't BE without some sort of creative force that I call GOD. This creative force is reflected in EVERYthing. But the mere fact that we see our universe and our souls as divided instead of united with God is strange and mysterious, indeed.
I'm kinda starting to think that if the universe remained unified, there could be no creation. Maybe the division of space and time was the birth of creation. Perhaps "creativity" is such a driving force, it simply had to exist, and made and continues to make our world today...?
I'm gonna go do a bong hit now.
psylichon
Message 78/188 27-Sep-02 @ 01:50 AM - RE: Faith
i think what you need is some real sincere tragedy to throw a little twist into your oh-so delightful little dance routine there. then check back with me, mmkay? you got a wife and kid? heh heh, i know ya do.. fancy watching them get fucked to death by coke-crazed akitas who then proceed to sever your spinal cord at the neck?
maybe it would be cool if you could philosophise about it now, huh? that'd be right entertaining. bad things truly suck, and they aren't fairy tales.
go on, about god. speak more. i'm enjoying this.
maybe it would be cool if you could philosophise about it now, huh? that'd be right entertaining. bad things truly suck, and they aren't fairy tales.
go on, about god. speak more. i'm enjoying this.
Message 79/188 27-Sep-02 @ 02:09 AM - RE: Faith
Well, I guess I won't know until I live through everything like you have, xoxos. The whole human experience, that is.
I've thought about my parents dying. No, I don't think I'd cry at this point in my life. Not sure about my wife. Don't have any kids.
You're right. I won't talk about God until I feel some more pain. It's just pointless.
psylichon
I've thought about my parents dying. No, I don't think I'd cry at this point in my life. Not sure about my wife. Don't have any kids.
You're right. I won't talk about God until I feel some more pain. It's just pointless.
psylichon
Message 80/188 27-Sep-02 @ 02:22 AM - RE: Faith
You know, I'd cry a lot. It would be the most painful thing in my life if someone laid a finger on my wife. Maybe that IS what I really need to understand life and all its many facets. I've had it easy up to now.
But maybe reading, thinking about these things, and talking about them will prepare me for such a day. Even if my beliefs only help me at that point in the smallest of ways imaginable, I still think the pursuit of knowledge is a noble endeavor.
That is, unless you've already figured it all out. Then you can stop.
psylichon
But maybe reading, thinking about these things, and talking about them will prepare me for such a day. Even if my beliefs only help me at that point in the smallest of ways imaginable, I still think the pursuit of knowledge is a noble endeavor.
That is, unless you've already figured it all out. Then you can stop.
psylichon
Message 81/188 27-Sep-02 @ 10:44 AM Edit: 27-Sep-02 | 10:46 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Then said Almitra, "Speak to us of Love."
And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said:
When love beckons to you follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.
For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.
Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you until you are pliant;
And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.
All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.
But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.
Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.
When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.
But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:
To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
And to bleed willingly and joyfully.
To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;
To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;
To return home at eventide with gratitude;
And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.
And he raised his head and looked upon the people, and there fell a stillness upon them. And with a great voice he said:
When love beckons to you follow him,
Though his ways are hard and steep.
And when his wings enfold you yield to him,
Though the sword hidden among his pinions may wound you.
And when he speaks to you believe in him,
Though his voice may shatter your dreams as the north wind lays waste the garden.
For even as love crowns you so shall he crucify you. Even as he is for your growth so is he for your pruning.
Even as he ascends to your height and caresses your tenderest branches that quiver in the sun,
So shall he descend to your roots and shake them in their clinging to the earth.
Like sheaves of corn he gathers you unto himself.
He threshes you to make you naked.
He sifts you to free you from your husks.
He grinds you to whiteness.
He kneads you until you are pliant;
And then he assigns you to his sacred fire, that you may become sacred bread for God's sacred feast.
All these things shall love do unto you that you may know the secrets of your heart, and in that knowledge become a fragment of Life's heart.
But if in your fear you would seek only love's peace and love's pleasure,
Then it is better for you that you cover your nakedness and pass out of love's threshing-floor,
Into the seasonless world where you shall laugh, but not all of your laughter, and weep, but not all of your tears.
Love gives naught but itself and takes naught but from itself.
Love possesses not nor would it be possessed;
For love is sufficient unto love.
When you love you should not say, "God is in my heart," but rather, I am in the heart of God."
And think not you can direct the course of love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
Love has no other desire but to fulfil itself.
But if you love and must needs have desires, let these be your desires:
To melt and be like a running brook that sings its melody to the night.
To know the pain of too much tenderness.
To be wounded by your own understanding of love;
And to bleed willingly and joyfully.
To wake at dawn with a winged heart and give thanks for another day of loving;
To rest at the noon hour and meditate love's ecstasy;
To return home at eventide with gratitude;
And then to sleep with a prayer for the beloved in your heart and a song of praise upon your lips.
Message 82/188 27-Sep-02 @ 11:13 AM - RE: Faith
*sniff*
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 83/188 27-Sep-02 @ 02:14 PM - RE: Faith
i'm not going to read all that.
you see, that's the thing, imho. those joseph campbell quotes.. those thoughts would occur and pass thru my mind like water and be gone without a moment's hesitation.. but we've got this situation going on where bad motherfuckers are making their thoughts into comestibles and living off the profits.
i think it's a fucked up paradigm.. you curl up with a book and you're all comfy but what you're really doing is putting thoughts on a pedestal. "it's funny because it's true." that's why the brains of people are so pathetically useless, because they've been trained to look for thoughts in things instead of just having them, and when thye have one, they carry it around with them like 'ooh what a smashing thing' prohibiting the flow of other thoguhts that would naturally take it's place.
that joseph campbell book (which i found rather forgettable many years ago) is like a cheerleader.. no, i don't care to expand upon that statement. figure it out yourself.
i had to stop you here.. look back.. you made a proposition, discovered that a few people seemed to be aligned with said proposition, then went all merry about it and started repeating it over and over again like 'yay! i'm onto somethnig! look at me i'm onto something!' well cool.
if you focus on perceiving instead of deciding whether the quality of your perception is kosher, you'll probably go a lot farther with it.
you see, that's the thing, imho. those joseph campbell quotes.. those thoughts would occur and pass thru my mind like water and be gone without a moment's hesitation.. but we've got this situation going on where bad motherfuckers are making their thoughts into comestibles and living off the profits.
i think it's a fucked up paradigm.. you curl up with a book and you're all comfy but what you're really doing is putting thoughts on a pedestal. "it's funny because it's true." that's why the brains of people are so pathetically useless, because they've been trained to look for thoughts in things instead of just having them, and when thye have one, they carry it around with them like 'ooh what a smashing thing' prohibiting the flow of other thoguhts that would naturally take it's place.
that joseph campbell book (which i found rather forgettable many years ago) is like a cheerleader.. no, i don't care to expand upon that statement. figure it out yourself.
i had to stop you here.. look back.. you made a proposition, discovered that a few people seemed to be aligned with said proposition, then went all merry about it and started repeating it over and over again like 'yay! i'm onto somethnig! look at me i'm onto something!' well cool.
if you focus on perceiving instead of deciding whether the quality of your perception is kosher, you'll probably go a lot farther with it.
Message 84/188 27-Sep-02 @ 02:35 PM Edit: 27-Sep-02 | 02:41 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Doesn't anyone here enjoy perception without thought. I mean, it is fantastic to be able to think, it's a great gift. But our thoughts are limited. It's like listening to a track with lyrics. Lyrics are great, yes, but they distract you away from true experience. Whereas music without words is all down to your own experience of the music. Just shutting down thoughts and feeling is so much, well.. I can't really explain it. But I think most of you will get my point.
I am definitely a solipsist at heart. Because, at the end of the day, all one can say is that they are here. And that is not even a dead-cert. Thinking about religion, belief and existence just hurts my head. Thinking will never take us beyond toying with these ideas. What if we were brought up in a different kind of existence? What would we think of then? We will never know. It all seems a bit pointless to think about these things. "Ignorance is bliss", much over quoted but there is a stupid amount meaning in that.
It's like you build up your beliefs in something then life bites you in the ass and tears your beliefs to pieces. Leaving you worse off and with even more questions. Sorry, I am just ranting here. But I feel that we could all be so much more comfortable with life if we ignored thought to some extent. Don't ask "why am I dancing?" just dance. It makes more sense that way.
Regards.
Steve.
I am definitely a solipsist at heart. Because, at the end of the day, all one can say is that they are here. And that is not even a dead-cert. Thinking about religion, belief and existence just hurts my head. Thinking will never take us beyond toying with these ideas. What if we were brought up in a different kind of existence? What would we think of then? We will never know. It all seems a bit pointless to think about these things. "Ignorance is bliss", much over quoted but there is a stupid amount meaning in that.
It's like you build up your beliefs in something then life bites you in the ass and tears your beliefs to pieces. Leaving you worse off and with even more questions. Sorry, I am just ranting here. But I feel that we could all be so much more comfortable with life if we ignored thought to some extent. Don't ask "why am I dancing?" just dance. It makes more sense that way.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 85/188 27-Sep-02 @ 03:11 PM - RE: Faith
'The universe simply IS, but it couldn't BE without some sort of creative force that I call GOD.'
why not? (or maybe more precisely, why do you call this God?)
i am thinking that we just may have fundamentally different perceptions. (that's probably a comfort to some of you :-)
x, i doubt even you are bitter enough to really wish that on someone else. but i do understand what you are getting at. i know i will never fully understand.
why not? (or maybe more precisely, why do you call this God?)
i am thinking that we just may have fundamentally different perceptions. (that's probably a comfort to some of you :-)
x, i doubt even you are bitter enough to really wish that on someone else. but i do understand what you are getting at. i know i will never fully understand.
Message 86/188 27-Sep-02 @ 03:12 PM - RE: Faith
Xoxos, you seem to assume that when people speak of something like God, that they feel it has some kind of power over their lives, or some kind of ability to change things, or even that it has a sense of good or evil. I don't think any of these things are true. I think it simply IS.
The conditions of human existance are the fault of humans alone, IMHO.
-Craig
The conditions of human existance are the fault of humans alone, IMHO.
-Craig
Message 87/188 27-Sep-02 @ 03:47 PM - RE: Faith
so to completely pry xoxos, why *are* you such a bitter person?
you don't have to live that way at all. regardless of your religious beliefs or lack of them.
the campbell stuff sounds nice but its #1 up above. just some guy stating that whatever anyone makes up is truth.
i think if you believe in absolutes you will tend to like number 2... if you don't number 1 is more appealing.
for me, there is truth. it exists outside of our percieved realities. each one of us on this planet forms views of what things are and how they exist etc. the number of views are as numerous as there are people (maybe more if you count multiple personality disorder :-)
so if i think that gravity works upside down from what it does does that mean that the truth about gravity is changed? nope.
thats why its silly for me to think i can formulate my own ideas about god.
plus there is so much supernatural stuff out there... but just because something is supernatural doesn't make it good and doesn't make it god.
i am into creator worship and will take earnest looks at anyone in history who claims to have had interaction with the creator instead of created things in the supernatural realm. that is why the new pagan and wicca stuff have no appeal to me.
so i find this creator by learning about other folks who interacted with the creator. so i start praying.
praying is talking to god, right? well i have to say that it works.
once you start praying to the creator you will find that truth as established (not as percieved) starts to implant itself inside your very being.
once you know what the creator is like in an intimate personal way thru prayer its much easier to understand and accept writings that are ancient and may not seem to have much relevence today.
at the end of the day there are two goals most humans should have (in my opinion)...
A) satisfaction on earth
B) satisfaction in the afterlife
A is a bit hard to attain because external circumstances (such as xoxos suffering examples) put focus on things temporal instead of things eternal. but if you plug in so to speak with the being that created us all, even death becomes bearable, in others or ourselves.
B is equally hard to attain. if you can work out A in this life, B should follow as a logical extension.
there are some hard things about this life we all have to deal with. being more or less religious doesn't make the circumstances we live in change, but it will change the way we view them and respond to them.
here is the hardest thing to think about. nearly all religions believe in an afterlife (secular humanism is the only one that doesnt)
if thats the case, what is 70 years or so compared to eternity?
if the lights don't just turn off upon death, it doesnt matter. you may as well have spent your life in complete hedonism. but if life continues that means the 70ish years we all get here in this life are like the proton in an atom compared to the boundlessness of space.
jamey
you don't have to live that way at all. regardless of your religious beliefs or lack of them.
the campbell stuff sounds nice but its #1 up above. just some guy stating that whatever anyone makes up is truth.
i think if you believe in absolutes you will tend to like number 2... if you don't number 1 is more appealing.
for me, there is truth. it exists outside of our percieved realities. each one of us on this planet forms views of what things are and how they exist etc. the number of views are as numerous as there are people (maybe more if you count multiple personality disorder :-)
so if i think that gravity works upside down from what it does does that mean that the truth about gravity is changed? nope.
thats why its silly for me to think i can formulate my own ideas about god.
plus there is so much supernatural stuff out there... but just because something is supernatural doesn't make it good and doesn't make it god.
i am into creator worship and will take earnest looks at anyone in history who claims to have had interaction with the creator instead of created things in the supernatural realm. that is why the new pagan and wicca stuff have no appeal to me.
so i find this creator by learning about other folks who interacted with the creator. so i start praying.
praying is talking to god, right? well i have to say that it works.
once you start praying to the creator you will find that truth as established (not as percieved) starts to implant itself inside your very being.
once you know what the creator is like in an intimate personal way thru prayer its much easier to understand and accept writings that are ancient and may not seem to have much relevence today.
at the end of the day there are two goals most humans should have (in my opinion)...
A) satisfaction on earth
B) satisfaction in the afterlife
A is a bit hard to attain because external circumstances (such as xoxos suffering examples) put focus on things temporal instead of things eternal. but if you plug in so to speak with the being that created us all, even death becomes bearable, in others or ourselves.
B is equally hard to attain. if you can work out A in this life, B should follow as a logical extension.
there are some hard things about this life we all have to deal with. being more or less religious doesn't make the circumstances we live in change, but it will change the way we view them and respond to them.
here is the hardest thing to think about. nearly all religions believe in an afterlife (secular humanism is the only one that doesnt)
if thats the case, what is 70 years or so compared to eternity?
if the lights don't just turn off upon death, it doesnt matter. you may as well have spent your life in complete hedonism. but if life continues that means the 70ish years we all get here in this life are like the proton in an atom compared to the boundlessness of space.
jamey
Message 88/188 27-Sep-02 @ 03:50 PM - RE: Faith
"if the lights don't just turn off upon death"
should read
if the lights just turn off upon death
jamey
should read
if the lights just turn off upon death
jamey
Message 89/188 27-Sep-02 @ 04:43 PM - RE: Faith
truth is a property of statements about the world, not a property of the world itself(Wittgenstein).
there might be forces that are "beyond human perception or conception" but--by definition--we will never percieve or conceive of them.
people construct elaborate defenses against simple fact that nobody has any freaking idea why there is a world.
what in the world would a satisfying answer to the question "why is there a world?" look like?
a warm loving feeling in your chest?
I am all in favor of warm loving feelings in chests.
I have no idea what warm loving feelings in chests reveal about the nature of existence or the world, but they're certainly my favorite part.
isn't funny how the most bitter people are often the kindest?
and the most spiritual people always want to bomb Iraq?
PS please pray for me because there's lots of evidence that praying and being prayed for is good for people's health, but everytime I tried it it felt phony.
there might be forces that are "beyond human perception or conception" but--by definition--we will never percieve or conceive of them.
people construct elaborate defenses against simple fact that nobody has any freaking idea why there is a world.
what in the world would a satisfying answer to the question "why is there a world?" look like?
a warm loving feeling in your chest?
I am all in favor of warm loving feelings in chests.
I have no idea what warm loving feelings in chests reveal about the nature of existence or the world, but they're certainly my favorite part.
isn't funny how the most bitter people are often the kindest?
and the most spiritual people always want to bomb Iraq?
PS please pray for me because there's lots of evidence that praying and being prayed for is good for people's health, but everytime I tried it it felt phony.
Message 90/188 27-Sep-02 @ 04:52 PM - RE: Faith
"now i know some of you have brothers and sisters and friends that haven't turned to the lord yet, and now is the time to reach out to them. you see, with this upcoming election, we have a very special opportunity to elect a chairman who stands for all of us and who stands for the lord."
"we have been blessed this day with the chance to share the riches of the reservation with substantial ore deposits, so let's vote to make the world a better place for all our brothers and sisters across the globe and open up those land rights."
oh and we're sorry you can't fish in the river any more because it's fucked, but we have good jobs for you, which you can use to buy our good bleached and enriched food.
ya see i'm not trying to have someone tell me what i can and cannot do to mind my own business here. i'm not trying to have someone disempower my ability to nourish myself from the rock i was born on through land usage and property legislation. and i'm not trying to be punished for that.
i'm not even trying to go to the slammer because i felt like tending my garden without any clothes on. i'm not trying to go to jail to protect some prude for that!
but i'm glad you've got it all sorted out there, j. you've got the hook up!
hook up my fucken ass that is.
"we have been blessed this day with the chance to share the riches of the reservation with substantial ore deposits, so let's vote to make the world a better place for all our brothers and sisters across the globe and open up those land rights."
oh and we're sorry you can't fish in the river any more because it's fucked, but we have good jobs for you, which you can use to buy our good bleached and enriched food.
ya see i'm not trying to have someone tell me what i can and cannot do to mind my own business here. i'm not trying to have someone disempower my ability to nourish myself from the rock i was born on through land usage and property legislation. and i'm not trying to be punished for that.
i'm not even trying to go to the slammer because i felt like tending my garden without any clothes on. i'm not trying to go to jail to protect some prude for that!
but i'm glad you've got it all sorted out there, j. you've got the hook up!
hook up my fucken ass that is.
Message 91/188 27-Sep-02 @ 04:57 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
x: you should my post.. the author isnt making money or cheerleading, in fact it is quite brutal.
The very reason I posted it is because it isn't the usual sentimental crap that passes for spirituality these days..
The very reason I posted it is because it isn't the usual sentimental crap that passes for spirituality these days..
Message 92/188 27-Sep-02 @ 05:10 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
formant: 'i am into creator worship and will take earnest looks at anyone in history who claims to have had interaction with the creator instead of created things in the supernatural realm. that is why the new pagan and wicca stuff have no appeal to me. '
New pagan and wicca stuff? err.. actually christianty knicked most of it's celebrations from the OLD pagan and wicca stuff.
And why don't you just take earnest looks at everything and make your own mind up?
Anyhow i met the creator and he is just an energy vampire with a bad sense of humour.
New pagan and wicca stuff? err.. actually christianty knicked most of it's celebrations from the OLD pagan and wicca stuff.
And why don't you just take earnest looks at everything and make your own mind up?
Anyhow i met the creator and he is just an energy vampire with a bad sense of humour.
Message 93/188 27-Sep-02 @ 05:14 PM Edit: 27-Sep-02 | 05:16 PM - RE: Faith
Many religious historians believe that the death and resurrection legends were first associated with Attis, many centuries before the birth of Jesus. They were simply grafted onto stories of Jesus' life in order to make Christian theology more acceptable to Pagans.
formant: please just search for the origins of the christian beliefs in an open-minded way and remember that the Bible (New Testament) was written by a MAN, St Paul not God. And he did a pretty brutal rewrite on the source material as well.
formant: please just search for the origins of the christian beliefs in an open-minded way and remember that the Bible (New Testament) was written by a MAN, St Paul not God. And he did a pretty brutal rewrite on the source material as well.
Message 94/188 27-Sep-02 @ 05:58 PM - RE: Faith
"New pagan and wicca stuff? err.. actually christianty knicked most of it's celebrations from the OLD pagan and wicca stuff. "
that should have read neo-pagan sorry... wicca etc i just lump all the ancient comeback religions together. you know they actually had some folks worshiping baal here in town? :-)
yah i have read about the suppossed 'borrowing' from mithra, gnostisicm, etc etc etc. the list is very long. there are also scholarly rebuttals for all of them.
the jesus project or whatever its called keeps trying to find ways to say that jesus is not historical etc etc as well.
there is a whole counter culture out there that call themselves 'skeptics' who try and come up with new stuff all the time. all of it is easily rebutted. nothing new under the sun and all that :-)
btw, paul didn't start the religion even tho some protestants might think so (i am protestant btw) it was started by the 12 disciples and they are the ones who had interaction with jesus.
for you to go so far as saying that paul mangled what jesus said either means you haven't read what the man wrote or you read some book of someone of that opinion.
the attacks of the historical events surrounding the first century and the formation of christianity will never go away but they are grasps at straws at best.
really it all stems from the idea that a man could not be virgin born, and could not raise from the dead.
if anyone cares to disbelieve, they will of course go out of their way to find other 'evidence' of untruths that don't exist.
i have many other 'scientific' problems aside from the resurrection if i choose to go that route... there is the flood, creation, joshua's long day, the parting of the red sea etc etc. none of which is fully explainable by modern science. most modern christians decide to explain these away as myth. but if you do that you may as well say there is no resurrection. and if there is no resurrection, that person who is a christian should just go off and live as a hedonist because now is as good as it gets.
jamey
that should have read neo-pagan sorry... wicca etc i just lump all the ancient comeback religions together. you know they actually had some folks worshiping baal here in town? :-)
yah i have read about the suppossed 'borrowing' from mithra, gnostisicm, etc etc etc. the list is very long. there are also scholarly rebuttals for all of them.
the jesus project or whatever its called keeps trying to find ways to say that jesus is not historical etc etc as well.
there is a whole counter culture out there that call themselves 'skeptics' who try and come up with new stuff all the time. all of it is easily rebutted. nothing new under the sun and all that :-)
btw, paul didn't start the religion even tho some protestants might think so (i am protestant btw) it was started by the 12 disciples and they are the ones who had interaction with jesus.
for you to go so far as saying that paul mangled what jesus said either means you haven't read what the man wrote or you read some book of someone of that opinion.
the attacks of the historical events surrounding the first century and the formation of christianity will never go away but they are grasps at straws at best.
really it all stems from the idea that a man could not be virgin born, and could not raise from the dead.
if anyone cares to disbelieve, they will of course go out of their way to find other 'evidence' of untruths that don't exist.
i have many other 'scientific' problems aside from the resurrection if i choose to go that route... there is the flood, creation, joshua's long day, the parting of the red sea etc etc. none of which is fully explainable by modern science. most modern christians decide to explain these away as myth. but if you do that you may as well say there is no resurrection. and if there is no resurrection, that person who is a christian should just go off and live as a hedonist because now is as good as it gets.
jamey
Message 95/188 27-Sep-02 @ 06:40 PM - RE: Faith
But Jamey, you have to agree that from a purely logical and scientific viewpoint the vast majority of the Bible is as easily rebuffed as the theories of the skeptics.. Hell, there's enough doublespeak and contradiction in the Bible itself to invalidate most of it in logical argument without leaving its own pages. My point being, there is no more proof in the traditional sense that the resurrection happened as that it didn't. The concept of faith simply grows out of that - some choose to believe the accounts they are told (that Jesus was raised from the dead and born of a virgin), while some do not. Some choose not to form an opinion
I don't really think though that any of this invalidates your position or mine, or anyone's. I suppose I believe that we've all got it wrong, but as long as you live a good and honest life doing minimal damage to the life around you it doesn't matter..
I don't really think though that any of this invalidates your position or mine, or anyone's. I suppose I believe that we've all got it wrong, but as long as you live a good and honest life doing minimal damage to the life around you it doesn't matter..
Message 96/188 27-Sep-02 @ 06:50 PM - RE: Faith
"some choose to believe the accounts they are told (that Jesus was raised from the dead and born of a virgin), while some do not."
right...
i guess my point was kind of like, if you choose to believe one point, you need to be consistant in your thinking across the board with it.
"enough doublespeak and contradiction in the Bible itself to invalidate most of it in logical argument without leaving its own pages."
um not really. but that would *have* to be another thread. most of the biblical "difficulties" aren't really so difficult. it is for the most part internally consistant. only if you go to outside 'scientific' logic does it become impossible.
but your point is valid about people choosing not to form an opinion. i think thats what most people do.
jamey
right...
i guess my point was kind of like, if you choose to believe one point, you need to be consistant in your thinking across the board with it.
"enough doublespeak and contradiction in the Bible itself to invalidate most of it in logical argument without leaving its own pages."
um not really. but that would *have* to be another thread. most of the biblical "difficulties" aren't really so difficult. it is for the most part internally consistant. only if you go to outside 'scientific' logic does it become impossible.
but your point is valid about people choosing not to form an opinion. i think thats what most people do.
jamey
Message 97/188 27-Sep-02 @ 07:31 PM - RE: Faith
listen.. jamey - you can't take someone seriously who admits that they lump other religions/beleifs together into easily dismissable groups.
"wicca etc i just lump all the ancient comeback religions together"
that shows you are ignorant, predjudiced and have no basis on which to formulate any valid opnion and that what you are saying is just predjudiced. - so predjudiced in fact that you feel it's FINE to dismiss everything else as 'that other stuff' -
Your ignorance is shown by stupid comments like calling those things 'comeback religions' as if they ever went away... as if they are some fad of the modern age??....
do you know WHY THOSE OTHER BELEIFS WENT UNDERGROUND?.. THATS RIGHT !!!.... COS YOUR LOT, THE FUCKING CHRISTIANS, CAME ROUND BURNING THOSE PEOPLE TO DEATH, STICKING STEEL SPIKES INTO THEM TO GET THEM TO 'CONFESS' TO NOT BEING WITH JESUS!!... RIPPING THEIR UNBORN BABIES OUT OF THEM AND IMPALING THEM ON SPIKES... RAPING THEIR CHILDREN AND WOMEN, CUTTING OFF THEIR HEADS AND PUTTING THEM UP ON SPIKES AS A WARNING TO OTHERS NOT TO DARE FOLLOW ANYTHING BUT JESUS, SKINNING THEM ALIVE, BURNING OUT THEIR EYES WITH RED-HOT STEEL BLADES...
shall i go on with WHY other peoples religion/beleifs/faiths in europe & beyond were forced underground??... (not to mention the genocide of whole cultures in several continents along with their beleifs)
Now little boy!... you walk off to your bed, and tonight you have fucking GOOD LONG THINK ABOUT IT!!....
"wicca etc i just lump all the ancient comeback religions together"
that shows you are ignorant, predjudiced and have no basis on which to formulate any valid opnion and that what you are saying is just predjudiced. - so predjudiced in fact that you feel it's FINE to dismiss everything else as 'that other stuff' -
Your ignorance is shown by stupid comments like calling those things 'comeback religions' as if they ever went away... as if they are some fad of the modern age??....
do you know WHY THOSE OTHER BELEIFS WENT UNDERGROUND?.. THATS RIGHT !!!.... COS YOUR LOT, THE FUCKING CHRISTIANS, CAME ROUND BURNING THOSE PEOPLE TO DEATH, STICKING STEEL SPIKES INTO THEM TO GET THEM TO 'CONFESS' TO NOT BEING WITH JESUS!!... RIPPING THEIR UNBORN BABIES OUT OF THEM AND IMPALING THEM ON SPIKES... RAPING THEIR CHILDREN AND WOMEN, CUTTING OFF THEIR HEADS AND PUTTING THEM UP ON SPIKES AS A WARNING TO OTHERS NOT TO DARE FOLLOW ANYTHING BUT JESUS, SKINNING THEM ALIVE, BURNING OUT THEIR EYES WITH RED-HOT STEEL BLADES...
shall i go on with WHY other peoples religion/beleifs/faiths in europe & beyond were forced underground??... (not to mention the genocide of whole cultures in several continents along with their beleifs)
Now little boy!... you walk off to your bed, and tonight you have fucking GOOD LONG THINK ABOUT IT!!....
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 98/188 27-Sep-02 @ 07:45 PM - RE: Faith
so you think that state governments that endorsed christianity for their own means and gain are the same thing as true christianity?
your gripe is with state religion, not with the guy who said 'love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you'
lets not confuse the two things. state religion is nothing more than mans attempt to legitimize his killing, raping, and torture.
"can't take someone seriously who admits that they lump other religions/beleifs together into easily dismissable groups. "
i lump the neo pagan/wicca/newage stuff together. wouldn't put judiasm of islam in that category. there is also the secular humanist category.
human life is all about categorization K... its really not right to belittle me because i organize things into groups. don't you do the same? sure we all do...
i also understand that i cannot know the intricate depths of each of these religions just as your understanding of my religion is a historical caricture.
so lets get back to civil here, shouting and telling me to off does nothing for the discussion, much less persuade me to your point of view.
is the best method for convincing someone of something yelling and insults? thats a bit of a sophmoric approach on your part K sorry...
jamey
your gripe is with state religion, not with the guy who said 'love your enemy, pray for those who persecute you'
lets not confuse the two things. state religion is nothing more than mans attempt to legitimize his killing, raping, and torture.
"can't take someone seriously who admits that they lump other religions/beleifs together into easily dismissable groups. "
i lump the neo pagan/wicca/newage stuff together. wouldn't put judiasm of islam in that category. there is also the secular humanist category.
human life is all about categorization K... its really not right to belittle me because i organize things into groups. don't you do the same? sure we all do...
i also understand that i cannot know the intricate depths of each of these religions just as your understanding of my religion is a historical caricture.
so lets get back to civil here, shouting and telling me to off does nothing for the discussion, much less persuade me to your point of view.
is the best method for convincing someone of something yelling and insults? thats a bit of a sophmoric approach on your part K sorry...
jamey
Message 99/188 27-Sep-02 @ 07:51 PM - RE: Faith
j- "the campbell stuff sounds nice but its #1 up above. just some guy stating that whatever anyone makes up is truth. "
But I give him credibility because of his scholarship. This guy knows humanity's stories, and all he's doing is correlating them. While there is interpretation of metaphor involved, from what I've read I agree with his interpretations just because they make sense logically. I believe in absolutes, and he IS trying to find them, and I think he's going about it right by studying the history and stories of man and finding common ground. That, to me, is more objective than a personal epiphany. Whether that makes it better is a moot point. You can either relate to what he says or it's a bunch of hooie.
I'm sorry his words are hollow to you, xoxos. But exactly what words aren't anymore?
I whole-heartedly agree that the experience should be of utmost priority, and thought comes after that. You can't "follow your bliss" by thinking about it... you just have to know. However, when one is raised in an environment where he thinks that what the senses record is "reality" (i.e. most of the western world) then sometimes it takes ideas (thoughts, mantras, what have you) to get the brain into doubting that reality. That's where I am now. I can't really say I've ever truly *experienced* anything in my life... I really feel rather numb at times to the world. How lucky to be someone like x who knows his experiences are true.
Sorry, xoxos, I'm not trying to come down on you here, you just amaze me with your negativity. I'm sure you were just like us "younguns" at some point in your life, and you would have hated someone condemning you for your spiritual search. It's like the assholes at college who gave me shit because I wanted to trip out all the time and they've "been there done that, no boomers for me thank you." I got such attitude, it's like "you WERE me 2 years ago... so stop fucking judging me!"
I see a parallel here? Or did you just come into the world knowing everything, x?
knowa - "there might be forces that are "beyond human perception or conception" but--by definition--we will never percieve or conceive of them."
I don't think anything is beyond human perception. Or tree perception or rock perception for that matter. I think if you could step back from this world you could experience and know it's all an illusion. I really don't think anyone's ever done that though. Maybe a few. Humanity has a long way to go. Good thing we've only been around for almost a cosmic blip.
psylichon
But I give him credibility because of his scholarship. This guy knows humanity's stories, and all he's doing is correlating them. While there is interpretation of metaphor involved, from what I've read I agree with his interpretations just because they make sense logically. I believe in absolutes, and he IS trying to find them, and I think he's going about it right by studying the history and stories of man and finding common ground. That, to me, is more objective than a personal epiphany. Whether that makes it better is a moot point. You can either relate to what he says or it's a bunch of hooie.
I'm sorry his words are hollow to you, xoxos. But exactly what words aren't anymore?
I whole-heartedly agree that the experience should be of utmost priority, and thought comes after that. You can't "follow your bliss" by thinking about it... you just have to know. However, when one is raised in an environment where he thinks that what the senses record is "reality" (i.e. most of the western world) then sometimes it takes ideas (thoughts, mantras, what have you) to get the brain into doubting that reality. That's where I am now. I can't really say I've ever truly *experienced* anything in my life... I really feel rather numb at times to the world. How lucky to be someone like x who knows his experiences are true.
Sorry, xoxos, I'm not trying to come down on you here, you just amaze me with your negativity. I'm sure you were just like us "younguns" at some point in your life, and you would have hated someone condemning you for your spiritual search. It's like the assholes at college who gave me shit because I wanted to trip out all the time and they've "been there done that, no boomers for me thank you." I got such attitude, it's like "you WERE me 2 years ago... so stop fucking judging me!"
I see a parallel here? Or did you just come into the world knowing everything, x?
knowa - "there might be forces that are "beyond human perception or conception" but--by definition--we will never percieve or conceive of them."
I don't think anything is beyond human perception. Or tree perception or rock perception for that matter. I think if you could step back from this world you could experience and know it's all an illusion. I really don't think anyone's ever done that though. Maybe a few. Humanity has a long way to go. Good thing we've only been around for almost a cosmic blip.
psylichon
Message 100/188 27-Sep-02 @ 07:54 PM - RE: Faith
"if you choose to believe one point, you need to be consistant in your thinking across the board with it."
consistent :p
why? so it's easier to pointlessly pontificate about it on and on forever so that meaningless things seem important?
consistent :p
why? so it's easier to pointlessly pontificate about it on and on forever so that meaningless things seem important?
Message 101/188 27-Sep-02 @ 07:57 PM - RE: Faith
I agree with you there Jamey. State-sponsored religion is a whole 'nother cat. It's the same arguement as with Islam in today's news.
Just one more thing I wanted to comment on:
formant -"so if i think that gravity works upside down from what it does does that mean that the truth about gravity is changed? nope."
There are so many documented occurances of the forces of nature being violated throughout history that they would fill many volumes. Now, you can dismiss all these supernatural activities as hoaxes if you like, but I find that difficult to believe. Jamey, if you were truly devout and had all the faith in the world, you don't think God would let you fly?
psylichon
Just one more thing I wanted to comment on:
formant -"so if i think that gravity works upside down from what it does does that mean that the truth about gravity is changed? nope."
There are so many documented occurances of the forces of nature being violated throughout history that they would fill many volumes. Now, you can dismiss all these supernatural activities as hoaxes if you like, but I find that difficult to believe. Jamey, if you were truly devout and had all the faith in the world, you don't think God would let you fly?
psylichon
Message 102/188 27-Sep-02 @ 08:03 PM - RE: Faith
lol @ k! ho ho! aah, shit, i bet there are some times when it's just amusing to be a parent (or to wathc someone else be..)
anyway, just to be boring and go on and on, psy and jamey, this (k's comment) is the sort of shit why i'd much rather do away with all organised religion.. that way all the big john/little john stuff is nice and personal, no fucker can use it for their own ends, aight?
anyway, just to be boring and go on and on, psy and jamey, this (k's comment) is the sort of shit why i'd much rather do away with all organised religion.. that way all the big john/little john stuff is nice and personal, no fucker can use it for their own ends, aight?
Message 103/188 27-Sep-02 @ 08:43 PM - RE: Faith
"Jamey, if you were truly devout and had all the faith in the world, you don't think God would let you fly? "
apparently i could make a mountain fly... :-)
dunno if i will ever get there. i have seen crazy stuff happen that is unexplainable from a scientific point of view myself, the gravity was the quickest example i could come up with for an absolute and of course you bring up the point that even that isn't absolute ha ha
anyway where were we going with this?
jamey
apparently i could make a mountain fly... :-)
dunno if i will ever get there. i have seen crazy stuff happen that is unexplainable from a scientific point of view myself, the gravity was the quickest example i could come up with for an absolute and of course you bring up the point that even that isn't absolute ha ha
anyway where were we going with this?
jamey
Message 104/188 27-Sep-02 @ 08:56 PM - RE: Faith
"anyway where were we going with this?"
We're figuring it all out, remember? Man, and I'M the pothead!
psylichon
We're figuring it all out, remember? Man, and I'M the pothead!
psylichon
Message 105/188 28-Sep-02 @ 12:21 AM - RE: Faith
I read alot of Alan Watts books on Zen and he
used to be a minister in his younger years
before he took the Zen path he
said"Christianity is a beautiful religion but
when Im surrounded by nature, it just doesnt
seem to fit". After reading that I laughed...
anyone have any acid???
used to be a minister in his younger years
before he took the Zen path he
said"Christianity is a beautiful religion but
when Im surrounded by nature, it just doesnt
seem to fit". After reading that I laughed...
anyone have any acid???
Message 106/188 28-Sep-02 @ 12:56 AM - RE: Faith
Fuck me tho it's a bit rich for a member/adherent of one religion that spent almost 1000 years or more actively perseucuting another one to refer to the other dismissively as a 'comback religion' when the only reason that thing dissapeared is cos it was violently crushed by the other... to say it's slightly ironic is an understatement... and besides, i was reallt pissed off today and seeing stuff like that it makes me just depressed cos you realise when this sort of talk kicks off that nothing will ever change on this planet. How the hell can it when people are so closed and unwilling to be accepting of others.
you see the hting is about christians i devide them into 2 groups you can spot by what they mention regarding their faith
1. a group who follow the teachings of a prophet called Jesus, christians they were called in the old days and there are still alot of them. It's not relevent to them to beleive in jesus the miracle birth and resurrection cult thing because the thing was going before he was dead based on the word. They can quite easily just be happy with the teaching which of course was the whole point of why jesus did teach, he didnt teach so that people would in future make a cult out of him surely?
2. the other lot... the 'son of god literaly/resurrection' posse who always mention first about that aspect of it before any other, if you ask them what is so important, they never answer "To live each day following the teachings of the prophet/Jesus" - they will bang on about the super-natural stuff & go off on tangents to do with that whole supernatural/did it happen/proof/refutation etc.... Their psychology is less about just living to a teaching and more about the whole beleif/worship/heaven/hell/miracles worshipping/glorifying the supernatural etc trip..
it's the second lot that are weird for me.
you see the hting is about christians i devide them into 2 groups you can spot by what they mention regarding their faith
1. a group who follow the teachings of a prophet called Jesus, christians they were called in the old days and there are still alot of them. It's not relevent to them to beleive in jesus the miracle birth and resurrection cult thing because the thing was going before he was dead based on the word. They can quite easily just be happy with the teaching which of course was the whole point of why jesus did teach, he didnt teach so that people would in future make a cult out of him surely?
2. the other lot... the 'son of god literaly/resurrection' posse who always mention first about that aspect of it before any other, if you ask them what is so important, they never answer "To live each day following the teachings of the prophet/Jesus" - they will bang on about the super-natural stuff & go off on tangents to do with that whole supernatural/did it happen/proof/refutation etc.... Their psychology is less about just living to a teaching and more about the whole beleif/worship/heaven/hell/miracles worshipping/glorifying the supernatural etc trip..
it's the second lot that are weird for me.
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 107/188 28-Sep-02 @ 01:01 AM - RE: Faith
btw - good quote dj19
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 108/188 28-Sep-02 @ 01:17 AM - RE: Faith
psy--bats hear frequencies that are beyond
human perception. and even really special
jews like jesus couldn't hear them ;)
jamey--sorry if I sounded hostile. I just can't
stand any of your opinions. I'll try to remember
to love the opinionated and hate their opinions
;)
I also agree with K's scolding though.
human perception. and even really special
jews like jesus couldn't hear them ;)
jamey--sorry if I sounded hostile. I just can't
stand any of your opinions. I'll try to remember
to love the opinionated and hate their opinions
;)
I also agree with K's scolding though.
Message 109/188 28-Sep-02 @ 08:34 AM - RE: Faith
"Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: it transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural & spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity"
Albert Einstein [1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press]
Albert's thoughts on religion and science can be found here. Interesting stuff..
Message 110/188 28-Sep-02 @ 06:03 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Zazza, you really should read "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra (if that's how it is spelt). He is a very insightful fellow.
Regards.
Steve.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 111/188 28-Sep-02 @ 06:32 PM - RE: Faith
Buddhism is not even a religion. thats what makes it so apealing to lot of people.
Message 112/188 28-Sep-02 @ 08:47 PM - RE: Faith
Wow... go out of town for 2 days and look at the mess... hehehe
I'll say that reading ALL OF THAT up there, I found only xoxos to be lucid in his statements. (Wierd in of itself)... I think he's right. The interesting thing about the internet is everyone gets a turn on the soapbox. And that's what this thread has turned in to. The kids jump up there, shout something and then get down. Here comes another. And the shouter goes unheard because everyone's waiting to get up there and thinking about what they have to say, and not what's being said. Which is really OK because 9 of 10 are saying nothing.
That's the problem with spiritual discussions. They tend to happen between people that see things differently. And usualy between those who have zero interest in seeing things another way. So they tend to turn into messy vomitous ego games. I must now validate my impressions in the face of contradiction. This forces us to become attached to our notions, our CONCEPTS. And forget what led us here in the first place. It is the conceptualization of our experience, this dichotomy of this and that (belief and un-belief) that have led us to this ignorant mess in the first place.
Just be, motherf*cker. Stop making SO MUCH out of it!
e
I'll say that reading ALL OF THAT up there, I found only xoxos to be lucid in his statements. (Wierd in of itself)... I think he's right. The interesting thing about the internet is everyone gets a turn on the soapbox. And that's what this thread has turned in to. The kids jump up there, shout something and then get down. Here comes another. And the shouter goes unheard because everyone's waiting to get up there and thinking about what they have to say, and not what's being said. Which is really OK because 9 of 10 are saying nothing.
That's the problem with spiritual discussions. They tend to happen between people that see things differently. And usualy between those who have zero interest in seeing things another way. So they tend to turn into messy vomitous ego games. I must now validate my impressions in the face of contradiction. This forces us to become attached to our notions, our CONCEPTS. And forget what led us here in the first place. It is the conceptualization of our experience, this dichotomy of this and that (belief and un-belief) that have led us to this ignorant mess in the first place.
Just be, motherf*cker. Stop making SO MUCH out of it!
e
Message 113/188 28-Sep-02 @ 10:38 PM - RE: Faith
"So they tend to turn into messy vomitous ego games."
I'm sorry I just don't see this. I think we've been very civil here (more so than in other threads)
I've gotten a lot of valuable opinions. And while one person's turn on the proverbial soapbox may not get me to abandon the belief system I've built all my life, there's almost almost something in the debate I hadn't considered, and take it to be a part of me.
No, I'm not "living" while I'm talking about living. I GET it. Whether it's the right way to go about figuring out reality or not, it's fucking FUN for me so don't be such a buzzkill! If you get defensive reading other people's opinions, then don't read em. Just skip to the bottom and put in your bit. I'll read it along with the others.
Damn, is discussion really that tedious for you guys?
psylichon
I'm sorry I just don't see this. I think we've been very civil here (more so than in other threads)
I've gotten a lot of valuable opinions. And while one person's turn on the proverbial soapbox may not get me to abandon the belief system I've built all my life, there's almost almost something in the debate I hadn't considered, and take it to be a part of me.
No, I'm not "living" while I'm talking about living. I GET it. Whether it's the right way to go about figuring out reality or not, it's fucking FUN for me so don't be such a buzzkill! If you get defensive reading other people's opinions, then don't read em. Just skip to the bottom and put in your bit. I'll read it along with the others.
Damn, is discussion really that tedious for you guys?
psylichon
Message 114/188 28-Sep-02 @ 10:38 PM Edit: 28-Sep-02 | 11:35 PM - RE: Faith
Steve Roughley
Posts: 1178
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Baaa! (sheep noise) :P
Regards.
Steve.
Regards.
Steve.
Message 116/188 28-Sep-02 @ 11:28 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
SteveR: Yup, read that when it came out.. heh...
Check 'The Holographic Paradigm' which came about as result of discussions between David Bohm and Karl Pribram amongst others.. excellent mind blowing stuff...
errata: peace man.. have some smileys
Check 'The Holographic Paradigm' which came about as result of discussions between David Bohm and Karl Pribram amongst others.. excellent mind blowing stuff...
errata: peace man.. have some smileys
Message 117/188 28-Sep-02 @ 11:34 PM - RE: Faith
btw, ta e, nothing personal anyone, but it does get wearing having so many people insist that i don't make any sense. it's not like i'm all that cosmopolitan or anything.. i'm a hermit for cliff's sake.
honestly, i've had quite enough. i give up. evil empire wins. between old age taking it's toll on my family, the constant onslaught of idiots at work, and trying to talk reason into the netizens for four years, oh and my fucking neighbor staying up in his driveway slinging coke for two months (driveway=next to my bed=no sleep longer than 3 hours) i think it's time to give my nerves a rest. xoxos is on vacation. i'm signing in as mr. salty for the next 6 months.
honestly, i've had quite enough. i give up. evil empire wins. between old age taking it's toll on my family, the constant onslaught of idiots at work, and trying to talk reason into the netizens for four years, oh and my fucking neighbor staying up in his driveway slinging coke for two months (driveway=next to my bed=no sleep longer than 3 hours) i think it's time to give my nerves a rest. xoxos is on vacation. i'm signing in as mr. salty for the next 6 months.
Message 118/188 28-Sep-02 @ 11:35 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
formant: someone should put you in a comfy chair and make you watch Life of Brian a few times..
Message 119/188 28-Sep-02 @ 11:52 PM - RE: Faith
would you prefer I pretend to understand, x?
I can smile and nod with the best of em. :}
People don't always understand me, either. c'est la vie.
psylichon
I can smile and nod with the best of em. :}
People don't always understand me, either. c'est la vie.
psylichon
Message 120/188 28-Sep-02 @ 11:55 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
"Hello, Technical Support? I want to move my cursor to the left of my screen but my mouse is on the far left side of the mouse mat. What shall I do?"
Message 121/188 29-Sep-02 @ 12:17 AM - RE: Faith
you have that problem, too? I just reboot when that happens.
psylichon
psylichon
Message 122/188 29-Sep-02 @ 03:08 AM - RE: Faith
no, p, not you. i get these people that pop out of nowhere (who are probably all votive) just to say i don't make sense, you know what i mean. really, it's just the people at work, so i've got to cut down on my venues for people to torment me with their horrible slavery compromised minds or my eye is going to start to bulge out of it's socket or something.
you see, i've been thinking, maybe they're right *nod~=wink*
you see, i've been thinking, maybe they're right *nod~=wink*
Message 123/188 29-Sep-02 @ 04:17 AM - RE: Faith
Do you really want to make sense to those people though? Knodameen?
Ugh, we need a Faith 2. This is starting to suck.
psylichon
Ugh, we need a Faith 2. This is starting to suck.
psylichon
Message 124/188 29-Sep-02 @ 12:13 PM - RE: Faith
w/o causing a party for the sort, let me just say if i don't quit, i'm going to have serious problems, like now. i really don't want to have to quit this job for my health.
Message 125/188 29-Sep-02 @ 12:52 PM - RE: Faith
to expound: as 411, i get one abusive cretinous robot brain strapped to my head (phones) after another, and i'm starting to get this burning sensation in my guts when i talk to them. a bad burning sensation. but the job pays twice as much as i'd earn anywhere else, so i've got to cut down on my idiot intake.
why do i get a burning sensation? because it's just terrible that anyone can be like them.
check this out - i chat on a christian message board. for strategic purposes.
recently, someone mentioned yoga.. ie. what do you think of it, exercise or evil religion?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the problem with yoga is that is opens you up to further hinduistic ideas and demonic influence
"Heavy metal shirts aren't funny" - R. Martin "I want to thank the good Lord for making me a Yankee" - Joe D. "They aren't evil, they're just insane" - Moiraine Sedai "Ich will in Beifall untergehen" - Till Lindemann
Qwix
pqmq superstar
Posts: 1126
(9/28/02 1:27:23 pm)
Reply Re: n
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You guys know that Yoga is not supposed to be about exercise, right? It's a form of Hindu worship. Some one once said that using yoga for exercise is like making a weight loss diet based off of the Lord's Supper. It might work, but that's not what it's meant for.
i can't go on like this, peeps. this kind of prejudice just makes life with humans unbearable.
why do i get a burning sensation? because it's just terrible that anyone can be like them.
check this out - i chat on a christian message board. for strategic purposes.
recently, someone mentioned yoga.. ie. what do you think of it, exercise or evil religion?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
the problem with yoga is that is opens you up to further hinduistic ideas and demonic influence
"Heavy metal shirts aren't funny" - R. Martin "I want to thank the good Lord for making me a Yankee" - Joe D. "They aren't evil, they're just insane" - Moiraine Sedai "Ich will in Beifall untergehen" - Till Lindemann
Qwix
pqmq superstar
Posts: 1126
(9/28/02 1:27:23 pm)
Reply Re: n
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You guys know that Yoga is not supposed to be about exercise, right? It's a form of Hindu worship. Some one once said that using yoga for exercise is like making a weight loss diet based off of the Lord's Supper. It might work, but that's not what it's meant for.
i can't go on like this, peeps. this kind of prejudice just makes life with humans unbearable.
Message 127/188 29-Sep-02 @ 07:25 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
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x: strategic reasons?
Message 128/188 29-Sep-02 @ 08:24 PM - RE: Faith
well how am i going to be effective if i don't study up?
Message 129/188 29-Sep-02 @ 08:44 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
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but don't they just depress the shit out of you?
seems a trifle masochistic...
never argue with a creationist...
seems a trifle masochistic...
never argue with a creationist...
Message 130/188 29-Sep-02 @ 09:22 PM - RE: Faith
power systems don't just go away on their own, zaz.
Message 131/188 29-Sep-02 @ 10:11 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
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well, yes they do actually.. all things must pass...
or do you see yourself as a conceptual subversive or summat?
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm just interested in your agenda...
or do you see yourself as a conceptual subversive or summat?
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm just interested in your agenda...
Message 132/188 29-Sep-02 @ 11:28 PM - RE: Faith
I find it helpful, when I'm neck-deep in the banality of humanity, to focus less on the futility of it all and more on how damn funny it is. Even if we all kill ourselves and our planet in a remarkable display of hubris, it's all just the biggest joke ever (the fact that we think it really matters). And it's funny. Or is it just me? If everyone just laughed at how fucked up it is, would it be so fucked up? I don't think a world of laughing people could be like it is today.
psylichon
psylichon
Message 133/188 30-Sep-02 @ 01:05 AM - RE: Faith
in my lifetime zazza? in your child's? in hers? fancy that, still living under fascism? put some fucking elbow into it. have a little empathy for people who won't otherwise know any better but will certainly be able to imagine it. you're free in your dreams? words of a slave. i find unpleasantness downright unlaughable. i'm not even trying to like it. you'll excuse me for having an imagination here ;P what's the word i'm looking for.. obsequious.....
i can't change the past, and i can't change what crappy people have done, but i can act now to change points henceforth. yes, you can open minds. yes, you can educate. and if you tell me otherwise, i'm going to punch you.
then when you're holding your hand over your nose i'm going to call you a robot, and you'll be all like "no, xoxos, no" but deep inside you'll know and you'll have to say "yes, yes.."
with awesome distain and terrible love,
xoxos.
i can't change the past, and i can't change what crappy people have done, but i can act now to change points henceforth. yes, you can open minds. yes, you can educate. and if you tell me otherwise, i'm going to punch you.
then when you're holding your hand over your nose i'm going to call you a robot, and you'll be all like "no, xoxos, no" but deep inside you'll know and you'll have to say "yes, yes.."
with awesome distain and terrible love,
xoxos.
Message 134/188 30-Sep-02 @ 11:37 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
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x: I am not arguing with you x.. that's why i post on a number of forums.. and try to point out the sheer illogicality and bankruptcy of many world views..
I also look after a variety of people in the third world through various mechanisms and also put my money where my mouth is by sponsoring various 'conscious' websites...
So, more power to you my friend, you'll get nothing but support from me!
I also look after a variety of people in the third world through various mechanisms and also put my money where my mouth is by sponsoring various 'conscious' websites...
So, more power to you my friend, you'll get nothing but support from me!
Message 135/188 30-Sep-02 @ 12:02 PM - RE: Faith
not surprised.. water doesn't roll off a duck's back too well when said water blows off half the duck's back.
same for p - benefit of laughter noted, but it's a sour fix when those akitas come rolling around. "but, ho ho, they did fuck and snap my neck with such panache.." not
driven to repeat these points.. they're so timely!
aah, one of my neighbors just got marauded. police way too late.
same for p - benefit of laughter noted, but it's a sour fix when those akitas come rolling around. "but, ho ho, they did fuck and snap my neck with such panache.." not
driven to repeat these points.. they're so timely!
aah, one of my neighbors just got marauded. police way too late.
Message 136/188 30-Sep-02 @ 05:35 PM - RE: Faith
hehehe... I wasn't pissed or anything. But thanks to you all for the cheery posts. And x, I was just playing, knowing the reputation you have 'round here I thought I'd play at a little sarcasm.
All I meant was that, like most internet threads this one had descended into an odd mish mash of quasi-wisdom and rant. Wouldn't follow these forums if they bugged me.
Sorry to give the impression of frustration...
It's the reading list's I often find the most interesting in the end.
e
All I meant was that, like most internet threads this one had descended into an odd mish mash of quasi-wisdom and rant. Wouldn't follow these forums if they bugged me.
Sorry to give the impression of frustration...
It's the reading list's I often find the most interesting in the end.
e
Message 137/188 01-Oct-02 @ 11:16 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
For truly is it not written...
He who writes betrays the truth.
He who writes betrays the truth.
Message 138/188 11-Oct-02 @ 06:26 AM - RE: Faith
Why I remained fascinated in science as a form of spirituality, neatly encapsulated by a professional writer:
"Hindu mythology is virtually a large-scale
projection into the psychological realm of
microscopic scientific discoveries. Hindu deities
such as Shiva and Vishnu continually dance the
creation and destruction of universes while the Buddhist image of the wheel of life symbolizes the unending process of birth, death, and rebirth which is a part of the world of form, which is emptiness, which is form.
Subatomic particles forever partake of this unceasing dance of annihilation and creation. In fact, subatomic particles *are* this unceasing dance of annihilation and creation. This twentieth-century discovery, with all its
psychedelic implications, is not a new concept.
In fact, it is very similar to the way that much of the earth's population, including the Hindus
and the Buddhists, view their reality.
Imagine that a group of young artists have
founded a new and revolutionary school of art.
Their paintings are so unique that they have come
to share them with the curator of an old museum.
The curator regards the new paintings, nods his
head, and disappears into the vaults of the
museum. He returns carrying some very old
paintings, which he places beside the new ones.
The new art is so similar to the old art that
even the young artists are taken aback. The new
revolutionaries, in their own time and in their
own way, have rediscovered a very old school of
painting."
-Gary Zukav, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters"
psylichon
"Hindu mythology is virtually a large-scale
projection into the psychological realm of
microscopic scientific discoveries. Hindu deities
such as Shiva and Vishnu continually dance the
creation and destruction of universes while the Buddhist image of the wheel of life symbolizes the unending process of birth, death, and rebirth which is a part of the world of form, which is emptiness, which is form.
Subatomic particles forever partake of this unceasing dance of annihilation and creation. In fact, subatomic particles *are* this unceasing dance of annihilation and creation. This twentieth-century discovery, with all its
psychedelic implications, is not a new concept.
In fact, it is very similar to the way that much of the earth's population, including the Hindus
and the Buddhists, view their reality.
Imagine that a group of young artists have
founded a new and revolutionary school of art.
Their paintings are so unique that they have come
to share them with the curator of an old museum.
The curator regards the new paintings, nods his
head, and disappears into the vaults of the
museum. He returns carrying some very old
paintings, which he places beside the new ones.
The new art is so similar to the old art that
even the young artists are taken aback. The new
revolutionaries, in their own time and in their
own way, have rediscovered a very old school of
painting."
-Gary Zukav, "The Dancing Wu Li Masters"
psylichon
Message 139/188 11-Oct-02 @ 08:16 AM - RE: Faith
Not really caring if anyone reads this or not, but it's here (and yeah, it could be posted in about 3 other threads):
"Randolph Bourne's observation "war is the health of the state" is familiar to most critics of militarism, but few have delved into why this is so. Statism is dependent upon mass thinking which, in turn, is essential to the creation of a collective, herd-oriented society. Such pack-like behavior is reflected in the intellectual and spiritual passivity of people whose mindsets are wrapped up more in images and appearances than in concrete reality.
Such a collapse of the mind produces a society dominated by entertainmen, which places little burden on thinking,ather than critical inquiry, which helps to explain why there has long been a symbiotic relationship between the entertainment industry and political systems. Entertainment fosters a passive consciousness, a willingness to "suspend our disbelief." Its purpose is to generate amusement, a word that is synonymous with "diversion," meaning "to distract the attention of." The common reference to movies as a form of "escape" from reality, reflects this function. Government officials know what every magician knows, namely, that to carry out their illusions, they must divert the audience's attention from their hidden purposes. "
_Politics and War As Entertainment_ by Butler Shaffer
psylichon
"Randolph Bourne's observation "war is the health of the state" is familiar to most critics of militarism, but few have delved into why this is so. Statism is dependent upon mass thinking which, in turn, is essential to the creation of a collective, herd-oriented society. Such pack-like behavior is reflected in the intellectual and spiritual passivity of people whose mindsets are wrapped up more in images and appearances than in concrete reality.
Such a collapse of the mind produces a society dominated by entertainmen, which places little burden on thinking,ather than critical inquiry, which helps to explain why there has long been a symbiotic relationship between the entertainment industry and political systems. Entertainment fosters a passive consciousness, a willingness to "suspend our disbelief." Its purpose is to generate amusement, a word that is synonymous with "diversion," meaning "to distract the attention of." The common reference to movies as a form of "escape" from reality, reflects this function. Government officials know what every magician knows, namely, that to carry out their illusions, they must divert the audience's attention from their hidden purposes. "
_Politics and War As Entertainment_ by Butler Shaffer
psylichon
Message 140/188 11-Oct-02 @ 11:17 AM - RE: Faith
as time progresses man will develop the technology to see inwardly the same amount and find that atoms contain another whole universe of orbiting harmonicaly relational objects within, decreasing in 'relative' scale... you can't have infinity in only one direction surely? - infinity in either direction and you are the mirror at the junction between the two worlds. After all, if you zoom IN far enuff on a human you'll enter a huge milky-way of atomic orbits, zoom into one proton and go inside and enter a whole new system which contains yet more - zoom right out, and just like when they do 'zoom out from a galaxy' sims in sci-fi films to eventualy show a distinct galaxy swirl, you'll pull back/out until eventualy those objects form a human being.... mebbe. But i cannot accept a universe in one direction only.
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 141/188 11-Oct-02 @ 11:50 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
According to the latest M-Theory, the multiverse is 11 dimensional and contains a possibly infinite number of universes crashing against other like waves in the sea. Each universe would have its own physical laws...
cool...
cool...
Message 142/188 11-Oct-02 @ 11:50 AM - RE: Faith
K, Scale is a pattern (like vector graphic) so infinity may not be relevant here. OK in this plane we have a group belief in physicality, which introduces 'a real world' with distance/topography but, like any organised thought we build on this structure to explain the complex but shared world around us. Empirically there is a physicality, a 'place' so introducing distance, composition etc and your point about universes and scale. BUT what if we are the dreams of dolphins or reflections of a truer existence or a cacophony of genes inherited (like the single DT voice composed of all our posts) then what we are looking for maybe exactly somewhere else.
I think that technology is a hardening of resolve not to explore there and 'take it as read'.
I am not sure how technology can help with our personal understanding of ourselves. It's fine that science can give us models that help us to explain or come to terms with how we feel/experience but I think that technological development is way ahead of human development (I mean look at out interpersonal behaviour - have we evolved much?) so the idea of technology helping us to understand will probably become a case of applying tech to find what we are looking for (should we really be amazed at discovery!). Remember science usually breaks systems down to discrete reliable? units (something I have trouble with in an equilibric system). Holistic approaches are too wooley and give answers that are difficult to interprit and apply specifically. Deffinatly technology is strong but the powers that wield it are collectivly neanderthal by comparison
What am I trying to say here
erm
DT ROOLZ! YAH
I think that technology is a hardening of resolve not to explore there and 'take it as read'.
I am not sure how technology can help with our personal understanding of ourselves. It's fine that science can give us models that help us to explain or come to terms with how we feel/experience but I think that technological development is way ahead of human development (I mean look at out interpersonal behaviour - have we evolved much?) so the idea of technology helping us to understand will probably become a case of applying tech to find what we are looking for (should we really be amazed at discovery!). Remember science usually breaks systems down to discrete reliable? units (something I have trouble with in an equilibric system). Holistic approaches are too wooley and give answers that are difficult to interprit and apply specifically. Deffinatly technology is strong but the powers that wield it are collectivly neanderthal by comparison
What am I trying to say here
erm
DT ROOLZ! YAH
Message 144/188 11-Oct-02 @ 02:40 PM - RE: Faith
oh and on cheddar (what does that make me? onions?) i'd say - let technology speak for itself then. find ways to bring technology to people.. in a friendly user way, not a user friendly way, or something.
Message 145/188 11-Oct-02 @ 03:04 PM - RE: Faith
tech - piss on it. Oh yeah it can do. Do what?
What they decide we want to do with it, keep us as tame hungry beta testers for the next killer app
changes living around todays tech till tomorrow changes living
who is in charge here? people serve the pockets of technocrats.
same deal with the car. Possessions.
pos·ses·sion (p-zshn) n.
The act or fact of possessing.
The state of being possessed.
Something owned or possessed.
possessions Wealth or property.
Law. Actual holding or occupancy with or without rightful ownership.
A territory subject to foreign control.
Self-control.
The state of being dominated by or as if by evil spirits or by an obsession.
Sports.
Physical control of the ball or puck by a player or team.
What they decide we want to do with it, keep us as tame hungry beta testers for the next killer app
changes living around todays tech till tomorrow changes living
who is in charge here? people serve the pockets of technocrats.
same deal with the car. Possessions.
pos·ses·sion (p-zshn) n.
The act or fact of possessing.
The state of being possessed.
Something owned or possessed.
possessions Wealth or property.
Law. Actual holding or occupancy with or without rightful ownership.
A territory subject to foreign control.
Self-control.
The state of being dominated by or as if by evil spirits or by an obsession.
Sports.
Physical control of the ball or puck by a player or team.
Message 146/188 11-Oct-02 @ 05:53 PM - RE: Faith
Yeah, tech sucks. Go turn off that synth now.
It's interesting k, there's a point of reduction or reduced scale (the planck length... roughly equal to 1.6 x 10^-35 m or about 10^-20 times the size of a proton) at which point it makes just as much sense to use another means of measurement. You see, we measure things a certain way because it's the easiest way in our scale of existence (using photons and vision and such). But without getting too much into the math of it (mainly because I don't know it), there's an equally valid way of measuring sub-planck lengths that indicates the "shrinking" scope is actually getting bigger. It will never reduce to 0, instead it will actually increase according to the new measurements (which will actually be an easier system at this scale than our system of measurement would be)
The best analogy I can think of is the decimal point. Each successive place on the left side (our scale of existence) represent larger ideas and realities (10 of something is less than 100). However, increasing spaces on the right side of the decimal represent diminishing realities (.001 is larger than .0001). It's all the same numbers, just how they are used symbolically that matter.
What this all boils down to is that infinities are everywhere to show us how limited our modes of thinking are. And if you understand what I mean here please come over and share some coffee and a joint with me cause none of my friends do.
psylichon
It's interesting k, there's a point of reduction or reduced scale (the planck length... roughly equal to 1.6 x 10^-35 m or about 10^-20 times the size of a proton) at which point it makes just as much sense to use another means of measurement. You see, we measure things a certain way because it's the easiest way in our scale of existence (using photons and vision and such). But without getting too much into the math of it (mainly because I don't know it), there's an equally valid way of measuring sub-planck lengths that indicates the "shrinking" scope is actually getting bigger. It will never reduce to 0, instead it will actually increase according to the new measurements (which will actually be an easier system at this scale than our system of measurement would be)
The best analogy I can think of is the decimal point. Each successive place on the left side (our scale of existence) represent larger ideas and realities (10 of something is less than 100). However, increasing spaces on the right side of the decimal represent diminishing realities (.001 is larger than .0001). It's all the same numbers, just how they are used symbolically that matter.
What this all boils down to is that infinities are everywhere to show us how limited our modes of thinking are. And if you understand what I mean here please come over and share some coffee and a joint with me cause none of my friends do.
psylichon
Message 147/188 11-Oct-02 @ 05:58 PM - RE: Faith
I do!
And it's all very fascinating. I would say what it boils down to, is we're monkeys for trying to measure it in the first place. The reality of quantum physics is that things only take on substance (from our perspective) when we measure/evaluate them. So in measuring, we receive what we expect.
The sun only rises because we expect it to?!
e
And it's all very fascinating. I would say what it boils down to, is we're monkeys for trying to measure it in the first place. The reality of quantum physics is that things only take on substance (from our perspective) when we measure/evaluate them. So in measuring, we receive what we expect.
The sun only rises because we expect it to?!
e
Message 148/188 11-Oct-02 @ 06:03 PM - RE: Faith
yeah, but I think that mechanism should be explored. We can't just throw our hands up and give up on science because it doesn't tell us anything. We need to understand why it doesn't work. We need a pardigm shift.
The amazing thing is that science is starting to answer the question of its own validity. It's showing the great "nothingness" and "unity" that so many religions talk about. Hell, the fact is that science is the modern religion, and the more metaphysical psysics becomes, the more willing people will be to embrace spirituality. Nuff said... science is a good thing.
psylichon
The amazing thing is that science is starting to answer the question of its own validity. It's showing the great "nothingness" and "unity" that so many religions talk about. Hell, the fact is that science is the modern religion, and the more metaphysical psysics becomes, the more willing people will be to embrace spirituality. Nuff said... science is a good thing.
psylichon
Message 149/188 11-Oct-02 @ 06:24 PM - RE: Faith
I didn't say it wasn't. I love science, and I agree it's the new spirituality. It's just logic, and at the heart of even the "moon is our goddess" religions it's all logic. An effort to measure and understand our experience. Just 'cause we call it science, doesn't make it different or superior to other "faiths"...
The reason religion gets the knock is that followers of faith often believe without thinking through and exploring the validity of their faith. Like people just excepting scientific notions without educating themselves on where these conclusions came from and how they were determined.
e
The reason religion gets the knock is that followers of faith often believe without thinking through and exploring the validity of their faith. Like people just excepting scientific notions without educating themselves on where these conclusions came from and how they were determined.
e
Message 150/188 11-Oct-02 @ 07:38 PM - RE: Faith
you put too much faith in science.
It's run by people, people who need to get results, who need to get results that make them worthy of more funding.
gods laboratory/church of scientology
spin people!
weekendings beginning
It's run by people, people who need to get results, who need to get results that make them worthy of more funding.
gods laboratory/church of scientology
spin people!
weekendings beginning
Message 151/188 11-Oct-02 @ 08:25 PM - RE: Faith
I don't care why they do it or who funds them or if they're trying to help humanity or just make a buck.
The PROCESS of science fascinates me and I believe it is formulating or at least is attempting to formulate a logical way of describing what TRULY IS. Even mathematicians know their language is just that, a language, and it is just a representation of reality. But the way that they vigorously prove theorums and revise those proofs and just the dynamic nature of the mathematical language makes it the leading candidate to describe reality (to me, at least).
Their quest for a theory of everything may be a farce, but even if they succeeded in the end, it will still be a metaphor, a description, a theory (just like the Bible's or the Koran's or every religion's answers is to all the questions), but I'm attracted to the ideas of symmetry and simplicity by which, believe it or not, science is guided. It's not the experience they're talking about, but the most accurate description of the experience.
Ah fuck it, you guys are just going to tell me to go outside and get some fresh air or something.
psylichon
The PROCESS of science fascinates me and I believe it is formulating or at least is attempting to formulate a logical way of describing what TRULY IS. Even mathematicians know their language is just that, a language, and it is just a representation of reality. But the way that they vigorously prove theorums and revise those proofs and just the dynamic nature of the mathematical language makes it the leading candidate to describe reality (to me, at least).
Their quest for a theory of everything may be a farce, but even if they succeeded in the end, it will still be a metaphor, a description, a theory (just like the Bible's or the Koran's or every religion's answers is to all the questions), but I'm attracted to the ideas of symmetry and simplicity by which, believe it or not, science is guided. It's not the experience they're talking about, but the most accurate description of the experience.
Ah fuck it, you guys are just going to tell me to go outside and get some fresh air or something.
psylichon
Message 152/188 11-Oct-02 @ 08:59 PM - RE: Faith
that larger negative numbers = smaller size like a mirror is VERY interesting... each side meets at zero then and can be a loop like:
10000000000.00000000001
10000000000.00000000001
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 154/188 11-Oct-02 @ 09:17 PM - RE: Faith
But that's the thing, there is no actual zero for either side of the coin. There is a minimum length... the planck length. We can't see anything smaller than the planck length because of heisenberg's uncertainty principle (anything we would use to probe that scale would have too much energy to be of use). In fact, we're not even close to seeing the planck length.
It's been shown (indirectly) that particles spontaneously emerge and annihilate themselves out of "thin air" at that scale, violating all laws of thermodynamics and conservation. In fact, many feel that time and space as we know it simply doesn't exist smaller than the planck length. All bets are off.
The universe is quantized (at least to us) by these units (hence quantum dynamics). The planck measurement and subsequent quantization isn't just for length or space, but mass, energy, and time (10^-43 seconds) as well. According to our best theories to date, we have to say that all of space and time began when the universe was 10^-43 seconds old. Before that, we can't even guess.
Now isn't that fucking fascinating? And you all cherish your true analog synths for their unstepped linearity of control. Pah! No such thing! :}
psylichon
It's been shown (indirectly) that particles spontaneously emerge and annihilate themselves out of "thin air" at that scale, violating all laws of thermodynamics and conservation. In fact, many feel that time and space as we know it simply doesn't exist smaller than the planck length. All bets are off.
The universe is quantized (at least to us) by these units (hence quantum dynamics). The planck measurement and subsequent quantization isn't just for length or space, but mass, energy, and time (10^-43 seconds) as well. According to our best theories to date, we have to say that all of space and time began when the universe was 10^-43 seconds old. Before that, we can't even guess.
Now isn't that fucking fascinating? And you all cherish your true analog synths for their unstepped linearity of control. Pah! No such thing! :}
psylichon
Message 155/188 11-Oct-02 @ 09:24 PM - RE: Faith
er... '10^-43 seconds'
??
??
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 156/188 11-Oct-02 @ 09:34 PM - RE: Faith
.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds
- the time it takes light to travel (you guessed it) the planck length.
psylichon
- the time it takes light to travel (you guessed it) the planck length.
psylichon
Message 157/188 11-Oct-02 @ 09:55 PM - RE: Faith
hold on...
It's been shown (indirectly) that particles spontaneously emerge and annihilate themselves out of "thin air" at that scale, violating all laws of thermodynamics and conservation. In fact, many feel that time and space as we know it simply doesn't exist smaller than the planck length. All bets are off.
who's 'laws' are they breaking?... surely they mean: 'appear out of thin air' - meaning - 'appear out of as far as we can see with our primative technology' ??
so you're saying humans actauly beleive that they can quantify/measure the universe?... i reckon it's pointless creating measurement theories cos you can never measure something infinate.
How can there can be a limit imposed?... I dont think any scientific theory can 'explain' it or rather quantify it. But truly accepting that it is not measureable is in itself very difficult.
It's all a matter of scale - if you were small enuff, you could fly in a spaceship into your body like entering a milky way and gazing at the stars within. But it's strange how we hold together even tho on a molecular scale we're riddled with holes the size of galaxies... odd. anyways it is about being able to 'feel' yourself on a different scale mebbe?.. cos dont we scientificaly try to measure things always starting at the standpoint of OUR scale?... but if you throw that out the window and admit, you really have NO idea what scale you are in terms of the universe then it's odd... you COULD be the size of a galaxy?... compared to what scale you beleive you are in an everyday way I mean. Like syou see a car and compare your scale to that, not to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction x a trillion of an atom.
In reality this solar system is probably one part of one part of one part of one atom in the right elbow of some bloke called Arnold or something & the lifetime of our universe is the life of one of his skin cells.
I mean you cant have infinity in one direction how can that be a balanced universe otherwise?.. the 'outer' universe couldn't exist otherwise surely? - but oddly that contains objects which themselves have inner and outer universes... hmm...
Don't you ever 'do macro' ?.. like go out to a field or park and just study a tiny spot on the ground or a some long grass with insects on it?.. it rocks! - insects interact with each other really interestingly, it's like 'bugs life', after a while you sort of 'lose scale' if you get me
groovy maaaan lol!!
It's been shown (indirectly) that particles spontaneously emerge and annihilate themselves out of "thin air" at that scale, violating all laws of thermodynamics and conservation. In fact, many feel that time and space as we know it simply doesn't exist smaller than the planck length. All bets are off.
who's 'laws' are they breaking?... surely they mean: 'appear out of thin air' - meaning - 'appear out of as far as we can see with our primative technology' ??
so you're saying humans actauly beleive that they can quantify/measure the universe?... i reckon it's pointless creating measurement theories cos you can never measure something infinate.
How can there can be a limit imposed?... I dont think any scientific theory can 'explain' it or rather quantify it. But truly accepting that it is not measureable is in itself very difficult.
It's all a matter of scale - if you were small enuff, you could fly in a spaceship into your body like entering a milky way and gazing at the stars within. But it's strange how we hold together even tho on a molecular scale we're riddled with holes the size of galaxies... odd. anyways it is about being able to 'feel' yourself on a different scale mebbe?.. cos dont we scientificaly try to measure things always starting at the standpoint of OUR scale?... but if you throw that out the window and admit, you really have NO idea what scale you are in terms of the universe then it's odd... you COULD be the size of a galaxy?... compared to what scale you beleive you are in an everyday way I mean. Like syou see a car and compare your scale to that, not to a fraction of a fraction of a fraction x a trillion of an atom.
In reality this solar system is probably one part of one part of one part of one atom in the right elbow of some bloke called Arnold or something & the lifetime of our universe is the life of one of his skin cells.
I mean you cant have infinity in one direction how can that be a balanced universe otherwise?.. the 'outer' universe couldn't exist otherwise surely? - but oddly that contains objects which themselves have inner and outer universes... hmm...
Don't you ever 'do macro' ?.. like go out to a field or park and just study a tiny spot on the ground or a some long grass with insects on it?.. it rocks! - insects interact with each other really interestingly, it's like 'bugs life', after a while you sort of 'lose scale' if you get me
groovy maaaan
lol!!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 158/188 11-Oct-02 @ 10:18 PM - RE: Faith
wouldn't that be doing micro? :}
Yeah I know what you mean. I agree that infinite expansion eventually leads you back to what you thought was infinite reduction (the universe is an elbow molecule), but I think the refers back to itself. There is nothing but our universe (I think), no other universes, but it is an extremely strange and self-referrential universe. Holograms are an increasingly appropriate analogy. In holographic imagery, all of the information to create the entire image is contained in every part of the holographic film (that's why when you cut it in half, you still see the whole image in both parts, and in fourths and so on... these are real holo's btw, not those fake silver stickers)
The point is the universe reflects a similar whole in the parts. Scientists are starting to realize that all those parts they've been discovering only reflect the whole as a unit.
A good page about interconnectedness:
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC34/Gilman.htm
psylichon
Yeah I know what you mean. I agree that infinite expansion eventually leads you back to what you thought was infinite reduction (the universe is an elbow molecule), but I think the refers back to itself. There is nothing but our universe (I think), no other universes, but it is an extremely strange and self-referrential universe. Holograms are an increasingly appropriate analogy. In holographic imagery, all of the information to create the entire image is contained in every part of the holographic film (that's why when you cut it in half, you still see the whole image in both parts, and in fourths and so on... these are real holo's btw, not those fake silver stickers)
The point is the universe reflects a similar whole in the parts. Scientists are starting to realize that all those parts they've been discovering only reflect the whole as a unit.
A good page about interconnectedness:
http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC34/Gilman.htm
psylichon
Message 161/188 11-Oct-02 @ 10:44 PM - RE: Faith
Milan, that song kicks ass. I'm burning a CD for my future child as we speak. Fucking brilliant :}
where did you find it? that's not you?
psylichon
where did you find it? that's not you?
psylichon
Message 162/188 11-Oct-02 @ 10:47 PM - RE: Faith
lol. yes, i was actually part of monthy python´s gang for a while ;)
its from Monthy Python´s Meaning Of Life. this song is the best bit by far.
its from Monthy Python´s Meaning Of Life. this song is the best bit by far.
Message 163/188 11-Oct-02 @ 10:53 PM - RE: Faith
{smacks head} I should have realized.
That's one I never saw.
That's one I never saw.
Message 164/188 11-Oct-02 @ 10:56 PM - RE: Faith
"... cause there´s bugger all down here on earth". i piss myself every tme i hear that part :D
Message 165/188 12-Oct-02 @ 01:01 AM - RE: Faith
Where do you get your drugs from kilo? They are fecking powerfull!
Message 166/188 12-Oct-02 @ 01:06 AM - RE: Faith
accciiiiiiiiiiid!!!!!!!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 167/188 14-Oct-02 @ 05:36 PM - RE: Faith
yeah, there's definately some tripper logic at work here!
One of the most brilliant things I've ever heard was Stephen Hawking on who/what created the universe. He said, "It's not measurable. We have no point of reference prior to the big bang. So the question isn't worth considering."
hehehe, you see... If you can't answer it, why ask the question. I used to spend a lot of time beating my monkey brain on the wall of reality. Trying to make sense of it. But when you personalize the reality of quantum science you find that anythings possible with the right perspective. "As you believe, so it shall be" has never been truer. So questions are mute... because they are only answerable from one individuals perspective, and reality is what we expect it to be. So answers are invalid!
and on...
e
One of the most brilliant things I've ever heard was Stephen Hawking on who/what created the universe. He said, "It's not measurable. We have no point of reference prior to the big bang. So the question isn't worth considering."
hehehe, you see... If you can't answer it, why ask the question. I used to spend a lot of time beating my monkey brain on the wall of reality. Trying to make sense of it. But when you personalize the reality of quantum science you find that anythings possible with the right perspective. "As you believe, so it shall be" has never been truer. So questions are mute... because they are only answerable from one individuals perspective, and reality is what we expect it to be. So answers are invalid!
and on...
e
Message 168/188 14-Oct-02 @ 08:43 PM - RE: Faith
As I see it, it's not important to know what happened before the big bang/creation/whatever. I don't think it is "unknowable," but it is certainly so given our current material existence. I think the more important question is "WHY is it unknowable to us in our current form?" What is the barrier between the finite and the infinite?
psylichon
psylichon
Message 169/188 14-Oct-02 @ 11:05 PM - RE: Faith
less science in that question methinks, and more religion. I agree the answer is knowable. But once we're capable of fathoming it's depths, I suspect we won't give a damn! It'll seem so obvious once we've managed a clearer perspective, that we shall wonder at how we didn't (not couldn't, 'cause I think we can) see it before.
How we go about that shift in perspective is going to be as varied a number as there are perceptions! But I agree that it's important to setermine first how our perspective got so f*cked up in the first place so we can be careful not to let it happen again. I think it's conceptualization myself. Nouns are not our friends, and we've abused them severely to the point of convincing ourselves of somethings validity based on it's name rather than it's material. We've already determined that there's no varifiable material to ANYTHING save what we assume it to be. But we still insist on beating ourselves over the head with the notion that stuff has a measurable existence around us!
Why is that, I wonder?
e
e
How we go about that shift in perspective is going to be as varied a number as there are perceptions! But I agree that it's important to setermine first how our perspective got so f*cked up in the first place so we can be careful not to let it happen again. I think it's conceptualization myself. Nouns are not our friends, and we've abused them severely to the point of convincing ourselves of somethings validity based on it's name rather than it's material. We've already determined that there's no varifiable material to ANYTHING save what we assume it to be. But we still insist on beating ourselves over the head with the notion that stuff has a measurable existence around us!
Why is that, I wonder?
e
e
Message 170/188 15-Oct-02 @ 03:37 AM - RE: Faith
Basically, I think that the new science will be able to prove the existence of things we would have called "supernatural" in the old science paradigm. It won't give the answers from beyond, but it will show that there is a beyond.
Within the next century I bet transcendental meditation will become a standard course of study for all scientists.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/view.html?get=6205
psylichon
Within the next century I bet transcendental meditation will become a standard course of study for all scientists.
http://www.news.wisc.edu/view.html?get=6205
psylichon
Message 171/188 15-Oct-02 @ 07:24 AM Edit: 15-Oct-02 | 07:29 AM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
scientific hat: m-theory DOES look at the pre-big bang reality. And quantum reality does NOT mean that we create our own reality in a material way. What it does seem to imply is that our intuitions, based on the macroscopic, non-quantum, world are insufficient. We are still struggling to understand that nature even as we learn to exploit it. (as usual)
We measure things because, in a very real sense, it works and gives us the power to create things like umm.. computers, synthesizers, aeroplanes etc etc etc
spiritual hat: i largely agree with errata's comments about the trap of conceptualisation, very well said in fact... but we shouldnt fall into the other trap of dismissing the material world, just try to see it in context, as just one aspect of a much greater reality..
peace
We measure things because, in a very real sense, it works and gives us the power to create things like umm.. computers, synthesizers, aeroplanes etc etc etc
spiritual hat: i largely agree with errata's comments about the trap of conceptualisation, very well said in fact... but we shouldnt fall into the other trap of dismissing the material world, just try to see it in context, as just one aspect of a much greater reality..
peace
Message 172/188 15-Oct-02 @ 06:18 PM - RE: Faith
In that we are still acknowledging the stuff as material, I'll agree that measuring the material has a valid point. And i also think that it is merely perspective that has prevented us from measuring in the past. If I can't see beyond the lens of my eye, then I'll never be able to measure the distance from me to you. But if I tune my focus to a broader perspective it becomes a simple matter. I think when we ge there, we'll be surprised at how obvious it was!
Never had much use for transcendence myself. There is nothing to transcend, no here or there! So why meditate on transcending anything? Hehehe, this from a trance musician!
e
Never had much use for transcendence myself. There is nothing to transcend, no here or there! So why meditate on transcending anything? Hehehe, this from a trance musician!
e
Message 173/188 15-Oct-02 @ 06:24 PM - RE: Faith
incidentaly, I didn't mean we should discard the material. Just that measuring things whose measurements seem dependendant on the observer seems to me to be the wrong approach. Now, learning WHY these things seem to follow our predictions rather than a clearly defined physical law, that's the future of "science". And, i think, where we'll find a truer marriage of science and religion than we have today.
e
e
Message 174/188 15-Oct-02 @ 08:03 PM - RE: Faith
this supposed tension between science and religion really interests me b/c I think it's totally misguided and based on a misunderstanding of what science and religion have to offer.
psy--what's "the new science"? there's nothing "new" about the scientific study of the dali lama's brainstates, though it is interesting and thanks for the link.
I doubt that transcendental meditation will become standard training for scientists in the future. they might try to see if people who meditate score lower on depression inventories or have fewer heart attacks, but I doubt that the *practice* of meditation will in any way affect science education.
not because meditation is uninteresting, but because science is about prediction of external events. eg. "are people who meditate score differently on depression inventories than people who don’t meditate?”
this is a VERY different question than “how can meditatation help me become more happy and satisfied?”
the first is an empirical question. you answer the first by comparing meditators’ scores on a depression measure to those of non-meditators who are as similar as possible to the meditators in every domain except meditation (would be very challenging to do).
The second in a personal question, which is answered, I guess, by trying to learn how to meditate.
I think by "old science" you mean logical positivism/neopositivism which can kinda be summed up the idea that:
"A statement is meaningful if and only if it can be proved true or false...The meaning of a statement is its method of verification; that is we know the meaning of a statement if we know the conditions under which the statement is true or false."
seems like this position is often what people mean by "science" when they say "science says ____". the use of the word "meaning" here has caused all manner of confusion. for "meaning" in this statement, substitute "scientific intelligibility" or something like that, because basically this argument is about what kind of questions *science can answer*, not about the "meaning" in the sense of "making beats is the meaning of my life".
I'm not up for some big epistemology debate but suffice to say that I think there are plenty of meaningful statements that cannot be verified e.g. "through meditiation, I experienced existence in a newly peaceful way". that's not a statement that can be proven true or false, but you'd have to be a real a-hole to dismiss it as meaningless.
similarly, asking “What is the barrier between the finite and the infinite?” is not a scientific question. What would the answer look like? scientists HAVE TO state the answer in advance—“meditiators will score lower or the beck depression inventory” or “meditators will have increased levels of endorphins in their blood”--and then test to see whether their answer/prediction is true or false. I have no idea what form a hypothesis about the “barrier between the finite and the infinite” would take.
again, I’m not saying it’s a dumb question. actually, I don’t think I understand the question. but it’s the kind that’s fun to talk about over some trees.
what I'm saying is that there is no tension between religion and science. and that science will not evolve in such a way that it begins to ask questions about the meaning of life. people may draw upon scienctific theories--physics and psychology esp--when they think about the meaning of life but that's not science.
psy--what's "the new science"? there's nothing "new" about the scientific study of the dali lama's brainstates, though it is interesting and thanks for the link.
I doubt that transcendental meditation will become standard training for scientists in the future. they might try to see if people who meditate score lower on depression inventories or have fewer heart attacks, but I doubt that the *practice* of meditation will in any way affect science education.
not because meditation is uninteresting, but because science is about prediction of external events. eg. "are people who meditate score differently on depression inventories than people who don’t meditate?”
this is a VERY different question than “how can meditatation help me become more happy and satisfied?”
the first is an empirical question. you answer the first by comparing meditators’ scores on a depression measure to those of non-meditators who are as similar as possible to the meditators in every domain except meditation (would be very challenging to do).
The second in a personal question, which is answered, I guess, by trying to learn how to meditate.
I think by "old science" you mean logical positivism/neopositivism which can kinda be summed up the idea that:
"A statement is meaningful if and only if it can be proved true or false...The meaning of a statement is its method of verification; that is we know the meaning of a statement if we know the conditions under which the statement is true or false."
seems like this position is often what people mean by "science" when they say "science says ____". the use of the word "meaning" here has caused all manner of confusion. for "meaning" in this statement, substitute "scientific intelligibility" or something like that, because basically this argument is about what kind of questions *science can answer*, not about the "meaning" in the sense of "making beats is the meaning of my life".
I'm not up for some big epistemology debate but suffice to say that I think there are plenty of meaningful statements that cannot be verified e.g. "through meditiation, I experienced existence in a newly peaceful way". that's not a statement that can be proven true or false, but you'd have to be a real a-hole to dismiss it as meaningless.
similarly, asking “What is the barrier between the finite and the infinite?” is not a scientific question. What would the answer look like? scientists HAVE TO state the answer in advance—“meditiators will score lower or the beck depression inventory” or “meditators will have increased levels of endorphins in their blood”--and then test to see whether their answer/prediction is true or false. I have no idea what form a hypothesis about the “barrier between the finite and the infinite” would take.
again, I’m not saying it’s a dumb question. actually, I don’t think I understand the question. but it’s the kind that’s fun to talk about over some trees.
what I'm saying is that there is no tension between religion and science. and that science will not evolve in such a way that it begins to ask questions about the meaning of life. people may draw upon scienctific theories--physics and psychology esp--when they think about the meaning of life but that's not science.
Message 175/188 15-Oct-02 @ 08:33 PM - RE: Faith
nice point knowa...
How about, Science will lead us to what we no call spiritual understanding in the future.
i would agree that it will not provide this understanding so much as conclusions through scientific methods will point toward spiritual concerns.
e
How about, Science will lead us to what we no call spiritual understanding in the future.
i would agree that it will not provide this understanding so much as conclusions through scientific methods will point toward spiritual concerns.
e
Message 176/188 15-Oct-02 @ 10:03 PM - RE: Faith
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
I believe anything at all can lead us to a greater spiritual understanding, and that includes science.. it all depends on how we approach it.
Message 177/188 15-Oct-02 @ 11:02 PM - RE: Faith
When I mean the new science, I'm talking about the paradigm shift from classical newtonian physics with a 1:1 ratio between theory and reality, and new physics (new being anything in the past century really), where such a correlation isn't possible. Check out this page for a bit more detail:
http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/pq/pq.htm
This guy goes off on a few tangents, but he's got some solid ideas and history there.
Basically, I think that everything in the material world is a reflection, shadow, representation of something we would call supernatural. Scientists cannot directly observe supernatural sources due to the structure of science as it is. I think that structure will evolve and our definition of a "scientist" will change to reflect new understanding of the human condition.
I think knowing the limits of material experience is an important to reaching that goal. Scientists have to know the limitations of science before they can go beyond. How small can we go, and how big?
And while civil engineers and scientists may find it of no use, I think theoretical scientists (the ones who come up with our theories) will need to turn to meditation to go further into universal understanding than material examination will allow.
Oh, I got a lot more to say but I have to run. Check out that link.
psylichon
http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/pq/pq.htm
This guy goes off on a few tangents, but he's got some solid ideas and history there.
Basically, I think that everything in the material world is a reflection, shadow, representation of something we would call supernatural. Scientists cannot directly observe supernatural sources due to the structure of science as it is. I think that structure will evolve and our definition of a "scientist" will change to reflect new understanding of the human condition.
I think knowing the limits of material experience is an important to reaching that goal. Scientists have to know the limitations of science before they can go beyond. How small can we go, and how big?
And while civil engineers and scientists may find it of no use, I think theoretical scientists (the ones who come up with our theories) will need to turn to meditation to go further into universal understanding than material examination will allow.
Oh, I got a lot more to say but I have to run. Check out that link.
psylichon
Message 178/188 14-Nov-02 @ 07:01 AM - RE: Faith
Found this nice synopsis and thought others would enjoy...
From "The Hole in the Universe", by Karen Christine Cole:
While Zen teachings certainly do not share the well-tested validity of scientific knowledge, in recent years, there has been increasing conversation between Buddhist scholars and physicists - primarily on the places where the emptiness of mind and the emptiness of vacuum overlap. UC Santa Barbara Buddhist scholar Alan Wallace, who was trained in physics at Amherst College, works with the Dalai Lama and top physics researchers throughout the world to explore these rich and curious intersections. Many have to do with the obvious interest of both groups in properties of the quantum vacuum - the roiling physical nothing that gives rise to all things.
However, an even more interesting commonality concerns the nature of reality itself. In both physics and Buddhism, every coin has multiple, often mutually contradictory, sides. Particles and fields and forces are to some extent nothing but models made up in the mind's eye. And yet, you cannot walk through a wall made of particles and forces. Walls, like phantom limbs and zero and the funny energy that pushes the stars around, are both real and unreal - something and nothing.
Reality, as both Buddhism and quantum physics tell us over and again, requires two inextricably interwoven players: the observer and the observed. Physics tends to focus on what is observed. That requires various mental and mathematical models that help pin concepts in their place, make them amenable to precise manipulation. Only with the models in place is it possible to ask concrete questions.
Zen practice, however, tends to the observer. Every experiment, no matter how carefully prepared and monitored, begins and ends with the human mind. This is the ultimate instrument of science. There is no contradiction here. The fact that the vacuum is just a convention "by no means implies that its existence is arbitrary," Wallace argues "The laws of physics... are precisely determined by means of experiment and observation. They are not simply creations of arbitrary human whim. They have no independent existence, however."
While many would disagree with his conclusions, it is hard not to see some sense in the implications of these teachings.
In the end, one way to see clearly through both the noise from the real world and the perhaps even noisier rumblings of our own restless senses is to quiet - or at least better understand - the mind itself.
psylichon
From "The Hole in the Universe", by Karen Christine Cole:
While Zen teachings certainly do not share the well-tested validity of scientific knowledge, in recent years, there has been increasing conversation between Buddhist scholars and physicists - primarily on the places where the emptiness of mind and the emptiness of vacuum overlap. UC Santa Barbara Buddhist scholar Alan Wallace, who was trained in physics at Amherst College, works with the Dalai Lama and top physics researchers throughout the world to explore these rich and curious intersections. Many have to do with the obvious interest of both groups in properties of the quantum vacuum - the roiling physical nothing that gives rise to all things.
However, an even more interesting commonality concerns the nature of reality itself. In both physics and Buddhism, every coin has multiple, often mutually contradictory, sides. Particles and fields and forces are to some extent nothing but models made up in the mind's eye. And yet, you cannot walk through a wall made of particles and forces. Walls, like phantom limbs and zero and the funny energy that pushes the stars around, are both real and unreal - something and nothing.
Reality, as both Buddhism and quantum physics tell us over and again, requires two inextricably interwoven players: the observer and the observed. Physics tends to focus on what is observed. That requires various mental and mathematical models that help pin concepts in their place, make them amenable to precise manipulation. Only with the models in place is it possible to ask concrete questions.
Zen practice, however, tends to the observer. Every experiment, no matter how carefully prepared and monitored, begins and ends with the human mind. This is the ultimate instrument of science. There is no contradiction here. The fact that the vacuum is just a convention "by no means implies that its existence is arbitrary," Wallace argues "The laws of physics... are precisely determined by means of experiment and observation. They are not simply creations of arbitrary human whim. They have no independent existence, however."
While many would disagree with his conclusions, it is hard not to see some sense in the implications of these teachings.
In the end, one way to see clearly through both the noise from the real world and the perhaps even noisier rumblings of our own restless senses is to quiet - or at least better understand - the mind itself.
psylichon
Message 179/188 14-Nov-02 @ 08:23 AM - RE: Faith
wow... i just read this entire thread again. your comments make much more sense the second time through
psylichon
psylichon
Message 181/188 24-Nov-02 @ 12:23 AM - RE: Faith
Reality is an algorithmic creation of the mind. This algorithem is a utility... a tool used in order to experience the result. This theory is mirrored in everyone, and in every way...
One designs/developes there personal reality... in example, One will veiw marrage in whatever way. In doing so, this person will experience the resalt of this mental machine.
This is fitting for physics also... A physisist designs a formula useing the syntax of mathematics... in doing so, one can split an atom and perform many other feats. One can apply this to any type of thought.
Now, in this way, one can imagine anything and design a means to acheive it. That is the power of the mind.
Wisdom on the other hand, is knowing whether or not use should use the design/modal... Or... in what way it should be used...
One designs/developes there personal reality... in example, One will veiw marrage in whatever way. In doing so, this person will experience the resalt of this mental machine.
This is fitting for physics also... A physisist designs a formula useing the syntax of mathematics... in doing so, one can split an atom and perform many other feats. One can apply this to any type of thought.
Now, in this way, one can imagine anything and design a means to acheive it. That is the power of the mind.
Wisdom on the other hand, is knowing whether or not use should use the design/modal... Or... in what way it should be used...
Message 182/188 24-Nov-02 @ 05:20 PM - RE: Faith
I disagree with everyone.
Reality are the pieces you feel becoming you. The knowing to look in the eye of the receiver to tell you your description is right
Religon, science and the bloke down the pub all have to say it again and again because that's how the teller remembers (had to remember) and the listener needs to imprint him
my reality is more real than yours... discuss
anon
Reality are the pieces you feel becoming you. The knowing to look in the eye of the receiver to tell you your description is right
Religon, science and the bloke down the pub all have to say it again and again because that's how the teller remembers (had to remember) and the listener needs to imprint him
my reality is more real than yours... discuss
anon
Message 183/188 25-Nov-02 @ 12:45 AM - RE: Faith
What you said is completely valid. As are ALL realities.
"my reality is more real than yours"... I will respond with, "your reality is more real to YOU then is mine"
My point is reality is not an absolute.
"my reality is more real than yours"... I will respond with, "your reality is more real to YOU then is mine"
My point is reality is not an absolute.
Message 184/188 25-Nov-02 @ 01:00 AM - RE: Faith
pict
Posts: 1005
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"I refute him thus!"
Message 185/188 25-Nov-02 @ 09:07 AM - RE: Faith
But that is all nonsense. I am the only real - all of this... is a manufacture for my pleasure, details to soothe my paranoia
well done - do carry on
well done - do carry on
Message 186/188 25-Nov-02 @ 09:18 AM - RE: Faith
Sorry Onemind but your
""your reality is more real to YOU then is mine" " - who told you that?, I mean maybe you had had a bad day - things were getting a bit too large and someone thought some kind words may help to calm or 'earth' out your state of mind - doesn't really matter anyway it's nonsense, all nonscentience.
I spoke to this lady...
I read a book...
I understood what you said...
I remember that guy...
I woke up feeling like a new improved version of myself
""your reality is more real to YOU then is mine" " - who told you that?, I mean maybe you had had a bad day - things were getting a bit too large and someone thought some kind words may help to calm or 'earth' out your state of mind - doesn't really matter anyway it's nonsense, all nonscentience.
I spoke to this lady...
I read a book...
I understood what you said...
I remember that guy...
I woke up feeling like a new improved version of myself
Message 187/188 25-Nov-02 @ 04:20 PM - RE: Faith
BJT
Posts: 90
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Is reality conscience.
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