normalization help - Mixing & FX forums

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Subject: normalization help

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Original Message 1/25 04-Dec-02 @ 10:12 PM - normalization help

a.d.d.

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o.k. so i got this new track up and it seems really quiet. but i boosted the levels as hot as i could w/o clipping when i transferred it from minidisk to the harddisk. then i raised the amplitude to just below clipping in my wave manipulation program(nero waveburner. but now when i play back in winamp the frequency levels look super hot but the volume seems 2-3dB's lower than what i want. how can i get this without overloading something somewhere along the way?

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Message 2/25 04-Dec-02 @ 10:23 PM - RE: normalization help

milan

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compression or limiting. i noticed you are a 100% hardware kinda guy, but think about getting software like wavelab or something where you can do some postproduction. with waves L1 (orL2) you could easily raise the level on a tune like that by 5-6db probably, without changing the overall ballance too much. you could actually use any relatively decent compressor with a very low ratio (like 1.3) and a very low threshold to take off 2-3db and then normalise.

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Message 3/25 04-Dec-02 @ 10:34 PM - RE: normalization help

a.d.d.

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milan, you're just a helpful guy today aren't you?
well i compressed most of the tracks on the way into the minidisk recorder and the minidisk seems to have some inherent compression by whatever codec they use, but i never thought about compressing the mix on the way into the computer. the levels for all of the frequencies seem really hot though. how can i boost the levels anymore without nasty digital distortion?

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Message 4/25 04-Dec-02 @ 11:01 PM - RE: normalization help

nomad

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equivocation.... minidisk compression is not the same thing as what milan is talking about.

minidisk 'compression' = reduction in file size.
audio 'compression' = reduction in dynamic range of the signal. they have nothing in common (though i suppose part of reduction in file size could include a reduction in dynamic range).

you don't need anything complicated. try the cool edit 2000 demo (http://www.syntrillium.com , i think you can use the basic compressor and save in the demo... amplitude, dynamics processing, start with the "4:1 above -20db" preset and go from there. don't forget the makeup gain.

there are of course much better compressors, but it might give you an idea, and then you can go from there.

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Message 5/25 04-Dec-02 @ 11:07 PM - RE: normalization help

milan

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a.d.d., yes i am. actually, its more of a case of being bored after finishing a mixdown really

anyway... if you compress your mix (either on the way into the computer, or later on) you are changing loudness relative to the peaks (logical), so your peaks dont have to get hotter than they are- you are jut bringing the rest up. alternative to that is to use a s/w brickwall limiter to squash only the peaks, which then allows you to bring the rest up (also logical, yes?). only reason i said s/w is because the h/w ones are usually bloody expensive. i�d suggest doing all of this after recording the signal so you can undo if you are not happy with the results. like verything else, it takes some practice.

ok, nuff being helpfull for today. off to bed...

cheers, m.

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Message 6/25 04-Dec-02 @ 11:09 PM - RE: normalization help

milan

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and what nomad said: ATRAC (compression used by minidisc) relates to throwing away bits of data, pretty much like mp3. it has very little or no noticable effect on dynamics in your case.

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Message 7/25 04-Dec-02 @ 11:50 PM - RE: normalization help

a.d.d.

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oh so that's why it sounds so bad...

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Message 8/25 06-Dec-02 @ 01:26 PM - RE: normalization help

a.d.d.

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well i have an alesis 3630 compressor already which i used to compress the individual tracks on their way into the minidisc, and i also used the admitedly limited compressor in wave burner on the whole mix. but what im trying to say is this: as far as i understand it, when a compressor is used on a mix it makes the quiet and loud parts the same volume. when i look at the graphic eq leds on winamp while my track is playing they are all just below peaking and there is not alot of variability, i.e. they are pretty squashed already. i think i used a 4:1 ratio. should i have gone higher? 10:1? inf:1? whenever i do that on the 3630 things sound so lifeless. what i'm asking is basically, with everything so squashed already will adding more compression and gain really fix this?

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Message 9/25 06-Dec-02 @ 01:59 PM - RE: normalization help

nomad

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4:1 is pretty serious compression to use on every track, probably unnecessary (if you're only really using 2-3db of gain reduction, it might be OK I guess). one thing that overcompressing can do is remove high end as well, this might also be heard as lower volume. and normally, 4:1 (or above) is considering limiting, not compression.

that said, the 3630 is rumored to not sound that great anyways... not sure i'd want to put everything through it... never used that one but i have used a couple other cheapish ones (behringer autocom...yuck... ruined anything that went through it, even when no gain reduction was done...). for cheap compressors, my 522s are OK (especially after my upgrades) but i still wouldn't use them on every track...

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Message 10/25 06-Dec-02 @ 03:39 PM - RE: normalization help

bedwyr

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4:1 limiting? nah, surely some mistake?

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Message 11/25 06-Dec-02 @ 04:20 PM - RE: normalization help

milan

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>10:1 is normally considered limiting. but still, 4:1 is rather much on a complete mix. as i�ve stated before, you should either do a very gentle compression on the whole mix (like 1.2-3:1 with a very low threshold) and take 2-3db off, or do serious limiting (10-infinity:1) with a very high threshold, and still only remove few db. mind you, that alesis isnt going to do either pretty good. thats why i was reccomending s/w from the start.

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Message 12/25 06-Dec-02 @ 05:45 PM - RE: normalization help

nomad

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i've heard both 4:1 and 10:1 being 'the beginning of limiting'.... just chose the more conservative number... it's just a guideline anyway, there's a lot more involved in 'true limiting'...

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Message 13/25 06-Dec-02 @ 06:50 PM - RE: normalization help

psylichon

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It's all relative. Hell, the ratio knob on the SSL channel compressors goes from 1:1 to infinity:1 with NO MARKS in between, even at halfpoint! You just use your ears and the meters.

But higher ratios aren't always for limiting, either. I commonly use 8:1 on the 1176 for a kick drum. With a slow attack and about 6 dB of gain reduction, it really does wonderful things to a kick's waveform. Instead of phoooo, phoooo, phoooo, phoooo, you get POO, POO, POO, POO!

Hehe, I said poo poo.

psy

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Message 14/25 06-Dec-02 @ 07:57 PM - RE: normalization help

milan

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lol "you get poo"! you got two people rolling on the floor here with laughter!

now, where was i... yeah, 1176 doesnt sound as brutal anyay, and with slow attack... ah nevermind, just wanted to say it was funny

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Message 15/25 07-Dec-02 @ 02:58 AM - RE: normalization help

Pongoid

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1176? oh my, very nice. I've got an 1178, that I'm about to get working.

a.d.d.
Don't believe too much but your ears. First. MDs do NOT have good dynamics. That ATRAC compression throws away parts of the sound that you supposedly don't hear, but let me tell you; those thrown away parts make a BIG difference. Go straight to your HD. I'm a hardware fiend myself when it comes to the instrumentation, and original recording, when I can be, but I don't have the budget or the studio at the moment to be 100% and get the sound quality I can get by using both. For live, it's ALL hardware, but recorded...well you gotta go with what works and you can afford to get the highest quality sound that pleases your ears. Personally, I'd skip that 3630 altogether, record uncompressed and do your compression/limiting/normalization/volume maximization in the computer. I'm partial to Ozone myself, but that things kinda complex. You might want to start off with something a little easier to use like Wavehammer, and then see from there. The thing is that in a comp ALWAYS save a completely untouched, uncompressed, un eq'ed, unfucked with raw recording. Make copies and mess with those, but NEVER EVER EV ER mess with your raw master, cuz that's what may end up in a big bucks studio and be redone correctly, and if you're already messed it up doing a bed edit and saing it, then you're gonna be trying to pollish a turd. $.02

Ape

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Message 16/25 08-Dec-02 @ 12:41 AM - RE: normalization help

A.D.D.

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well, i never used the 3630 to compress the mix, i used the compression/normalization utility in waveburner. as for the 3630 being shit, i'm sure it is but its so much better than the dbx 166 i was using before it. i just don't have the cash to lay down on a $500 rnc. if i had that kind of cash i'd be picking up another synth or a tape delay or something useful. the only compressor i've ever really liked was my friends mxr dynacomp guitar pedal, "the source of the nashville sound", or so the box says. 2 knobs and an on/off switch. everything that went thru it sounded fantastic. little noisy though. oh and pongoid, i hate computers! i use one at work. i use one to do most of my school work. hell, i'm using one now to tool around the internet. when its time to make music the last thing i want to see is a computer. also, my comp. is NOT spec'd for music at all. soundblaster live value with mono 1/8in. jack i/o's!??! wtf am i supposed to do with those? new soundcard? for that money i could pick up one of the 2 adats with under 200 hours i just watched close on ebay for $300. got no money though so its all moot. just sold my pulse for $250 so maybe when i get that check. dunno. sorry if i seem like i'm not listening to what all of you are saying, its just that i've spent a couple of years just learning how to make music. then i spent a couple of years buying and selling gear and trying out everthing i could get my hands on until now i finally feel like i have a versatile core of soundmaking tools around me and i'm entering the final phase of my learning. namely, how to take everything i know about songwriting, synthesis and recording, apply it and using every available studio trick to make it sound f*cking trancendant. it's this studio trickery part that's throwing me. i know the minidisc is shite, but its not mine its just the best recorder i have access to until i get my own adat. where am i going with all this? maybe i just need a producer... ape you down?

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Message 17/25 08-Dec-02 @ 12:43 AM - RE: normalization help

a.d.d.

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almost forgot. ape, of course i saved an unadulterated copy, that was kinda why i was asking what to do... thanks

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Message 18/25 08-Dec-02 @ 02:55 AM - RE: normalization help

Pongoid

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You can get an RNC for under $200 if you talk the the right people. I picked up mine for $150, new in the box with the warantee, from a shop. They are not that expensive.

Am I down to be a producer? I've done it before and am doing it for some others now, from time to time. My time is precious so you better have some kind of financial arrangement in mind. I don't mind helping you with tips, but if you want the ears, the tools and the time, be ready to to pay me.

pongoid@hotmail.com

Let's talk.

Ape

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Message 19/25 08-Dec-02 @ 09:35 AM - RE: normalization help

influx1

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"You can get an RNC for under $200 if you talk the the right people."

or you could just call FMR Audio who makes them and buy one for $200 even

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Message 20/25 09-Dec-02 @ 02:32 AM - RE: normalization help

brett

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every mastering engineer out there warns of the ill effects normalization has on the quality of the audio. you are mathematically changing the gain based on the highest peak and then multiplying that factor to each sliver of audio. math truncation is performed and the signal is degraded a generation. they use multiple pieces of hardware in a chain and then resample through high end converters like mytek or apogee. so if you can get it louder via hardware in the beginning, you will be better off. you may not be at the same peak level of zero, but the presence will be much better. I am ordering a fatso to accomplish this. it has a tracking comp followed by a no overshoot limiter for recording to digital. it isn�t cheap but it is supposed to do wonders for digital recordings. I think it will be worth if it does what it supposed to. You should be able to get good results with any decent compressor. The RNC look damn fine for the money. I thought you guys using it said it was best on the bus, but for tracking it was a little to bright and transparent for material with sharp transients.

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Message 21/25 09-Dec-02 @ 09:51 AM - RE: normalization help

milan

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oh shut up! *throws a rolled-up piece of paper in bretts direction*

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Message 22/25 09-Dec-02 @ 06:29 PM - RE: normalization help

Pongoid

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brett, the RNC is like most other decent tools. You learn how to use it and where, and how much, and then it is killer.

Ape

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Message 23/25 09-Dec-02 @ 08:20 PM - RE: normalization help

influx

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brett, I really am curious how much of this gear you actually OWN, or do you just talk about all the expensive stuff youre going to get?

written any MUSIC lately? or did you decide to be an engineer (which is perfectly valid)

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Message 24/25 10-Dec-02 @ 03:23 AM - RE: normalization help

brett

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i own a few nice things. probably less than most of you. go to my web page. there is a list, then subtract the o1v and add a virus indigo and a fatso.

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Message 25/25 10-Dec-02 @ 11:30 AM - RE: normalization help

xoxos

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you got married? hope you signed a prenupt.

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