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Forums - Computer music & technology
Subject: Virus KC and Sonar
Viewing all 17 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2
Original Message 1/17 04-Jan-03 @ 09:51 AM - Virus KC and Sonar
Disclaimer: I'm pretty new to the world of synthesizers and sequencers, so if my questions seem stupid, they probably are. 
Based on a music dealer's recommendation, I made an investment in Sonar 2.0 XL because it's "rock solid and works with everything"...famous last words...haha I'm now trying to set up Sonar to work with my Access Virus KC synth, but the MIDI patches in Sonar aren't playing the right sounds (if I pick "flute," a sound comes on with heavy bass, for example). Also, if I load a Sonar "tutorial song," only one instrument will play (eg: piano), but it sounds nothing like a piano. Selecting "solo" on any other track (saxaphone, drums, triangle, etc.) just results in silence.
Cakewalk recommended that I create instrument definitions for the keyboard. They also said that I might be able to find instrument definitions that others have previously set up in user forums such as this. If anyone knows about instrument definitions for the Virus KC, I'd really appreciate the advice. Cakewalk said that this may also solve another problem I'm having with Sonar: After exiting Sonar, my keyboard won't make any sound until I turn it off/on - then it plays normally again.
But here's what really confuses me: I also have Reason 2.01 and it seems to work fine. If I record MIDI from the keyboard into Reason, I can choose different patches (using Subtractor, for example) and the sound I pick is the sound that I hear (no surprises, unlike Sonar).
I'm at a loss as to why Reason doesn't require all of these instrument definitions like Sonar does...I'm really looking forward to making some music instead of troubleshooting it, but at least I've solved the problem with my Layla 24 not transmitting MIDI Sysex data properly (thanks to my new Midisport 2x2 box), but that's a whole other story!
Anyway, I'd like to know if anyone else uses the Virus KC with Sonar...I'm hoping that I'm not the only one! Thanks.
Based on a music dealer's recommendation, I made an investment in Sonar 2.0 XL because it's "rock solid and works with everything"...famous last words...haha I'm now trying to set up Sonar to work with my Access Virus KC synth, but the MIDI patches in Sonar aren't playing the right sounds (if I pick "flute," a sound comes on with heavy bass, for example). Also, if I load a Sonar "tutorial song," only one instrument will play (eg: piano), but it sounds nothing like a piano. Selecting "solo" on any other track (saxaphone, drums, triangle, etc.) just results in silence.
Cakewalk recommended that I create instrument definitions for the keyboard. They also said that I might be able to find instrument definitions that others have previously set up in user forums such as this. If anyone knows about instrument definitions for the Virus KC, I'd really appreciate the advice. Cakewalk said that this may also solve another problem I'm having with Sonar: After exiting Sonar, my keyboard won't make any sound until I turn it off/on - then it plays normally again.
But here's what really confuses me: I also have Reason 2.01 and it seems to work fine. If I record MIDI from the keyboard into Reason, I can choose different patches (using Subtractor, for example) and the sound I pick is the sound that I hear (no surprises, unlike Sonar).
I'm at a loss as to why Reason doesn't require all of these instrument definitions like Sonar does...I'm really looking forward to making some music instead of troubleshooting it, but at least I've solved the problem with my Layla 24 not transmitting MIDI Sysex data properly (thanks to my new Midisport 2x2 box), but that's a whole other story!
Anyway, I'd like to know if anyone else uses the Virus KC with Sonar...I'm hoping that I'm not the only one! Thanks.
Message 2/17 04-Jan-03 @ 02:57 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
simple, because reason has lists for it's OWN sounds for it's OWN synths which are contained inside the whole Reason programme - remember, Reason is a sequencer AND a suite of synths/sampler/drums etc
of course. When you select a patch-name' in Reason, you are selecting a name for a sound of a synth WITHIN Reason, so of course Reason has the names because it is all in the same programme... Reason's synths are built in...
But, in SONAR, you are asking sonar to list all sounds for the virus you own which is a 3rd party hardware synth made by another company, it doesnt work like that, because SONAR is not part of the virus and there are hundreds of different synths, and sonar like all other sequencers relies on 3rd party or in-house developed patch lists to list names of sounds for 3rd party synths you might be using with sonar (such as the virus range of aynths) - it's the same for vst/sx or logic... you can get patch lists for most popular synths which you can load into these sequencers.
So it's no bad thing on Sonar's behalf to not list all the patch names.
what you need to do is simply use numbered patch selections in Sonar... select patch 1 and patch 1 in your virus will select... you just dont get the name of the patch in Sonar - that is why you need to create a list of patch names.
and of course what if you have re-edited all your virus patches to your own custom sounds and have renamed them in the visrus??.... how then can you expect that same created custom patch-name to apear by magic in Sonar?... you can't of course expect that... so you must create patch lists.
Sonar has a notepad onboard which saves with each song that you can make notes about what virus patch is used... you can also add bank/patch changes to your sequences etc... you just need to get into that side of the sonar patch-name protocol deeper... it'd be just as much a learning curve in any other sequncer such as logic or vst/sx.
sorry, but that's life... if you think it's hard now you should try it before all this s/w synths back in the hardware only days.... in those days loading a song to work on it required the following:
setting up ALL mixer channels with the right eq settings
setting up all aux sends on all channels exactly right and then setting all outboard fx to the correct settings.
setting all midi routing and all patches on all synths, samplers drums etc in your outboard sound-generating gear, and then patching all those outboard sound-generating kit's outputs to the right mixer channels.
setting up your tape and syncroniser settings so the midi will run in sync with any tape
loding the sequence to your sequencer and assigning all the right midi ports and leads to the required outboard sound-generators
etc etc etc
it could take up to an hour just to setup a song ready to play and continue working on.
be thankful!!
of course. When you select a patch-name' in Reason, you are selecting a name for a sound of a synth WITHIN Reason, so of course Reason has the names because it is all in the same programme... Reason's synths are built in...
But, in SONAR, you are asking sonar to list all sounds for the virus you own which is a 3rd party hardware synth made by another company, it doesnt work like that, because SONAR is not part of the virus and there are hundreds of different synths, and sonar like all other sequencers relies on 3rd party or in-house developed patch lists to list names of sounds for 3rd party synths you might be using with sonar (such as the virus range of aynths) - it's the same for vst/sx or logic... you can get patch lists for most popular synths which you can load into these sequencers.
So it's no bad thing on Sonar's behalf to not list all the patch names.
what you need to do is simply use numbered patch selections in Sonar... select patch 1 and patch 1 in your virus will select... you just dont get the name of the patch in Sonar - that is why you need to create a list of patch names.
and of course what if you have re-edited all your virus patches to your own custom sounds and have renamed them in the visrus??.... how then can you expect that same created custom patch-name to apear by magic in Sonar?... you can't of course expect that... so you must create patch lists.
Sonar has a notepad onboard which saves with each song that you can make notes about what virus patch is used... you can also add bank/patch changes to your sequences etc... you just need to get into that side of the sonar patch-name protocol deeper... it'd be just as much a learning curve in any other sequncer such as logic or vst/sx.
sorry, but that's life... if you think it's hard now you should try it before all this s/w synths back in the hardware only days.... in those days loading a song to work on it required the following:
setting up ALL mixer channels with the right eq settings
setting up all aux sends on all channels exactly right and then setting all outboard fx to the correct settings.
setting all midi routing and all patches on all synths, samplers drums etc in your outboard sound-generating gear, and then patching all those outboard sound-generating kit's outputs to the right mixer channels.
setting up your tape and syncroniser settings so the midi will run in sync with any tape
loding the sequence to your sequencer and assigning all the right midi ports and leads to the required outboard sound-generators
etc etc etc
it could take up to an hour just to setup a song ready to play and continue working on.
be thankful!!
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 3/17 04-Jan-03 @ 04:36 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Did you check out the access website ?
http://www.access-music.de/downloads.php4?product=viruskc
http://www.access-music.de/downloads.php4?product=viruskc
Message 4/17 04-Jan-03 @ 09:35 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Yes, I had checked out the Access website before leaving my first message. I found instructions there for downloading a .INI file specific for the Virus, which I did, but I'm not really sure what it accomplished (there was no change as far as I could tell).
After that, I contacted Cakewalk and found out that I needed to set up the instrument definitions file. Went back to the Access site and found 2 definitions files there. I downloaded the latest and then went into Options, Instruments, Define, Import in Sonar and imported the file.
Now it looks like the standard Virus definitions have been added. I then proceeded to "drag & drop" each bank from the right side over to the instrument corresponding to the Virus on the left side, per the instructions from Cakewalk (at http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Docs/InstrumentDef.asp)
Then I got to the part about modifying the Bank Select Method - I think that this selection was already included as part of the definition file that I downloaded (clicking on the instrument on the left hand side in Sonar shows Bank Select Normal). To verify, I checked the MIDI Implementation chart in the manual for my Virus KC and it shows Control Change 32, Transmitted 0, Recognized 0 for Bank Select. Although this is about as easy for me to understand as learning Dutch (I tried once, but I'm American...lol), I think 0 and 32 is the Bank Select Normal setting so all seems o.k. with this.
Onto the final test, I opened up a new MIDI-only project in Sonar and recorded some notes from my keyboard. Then I chose "flute" instead as the patch and I heard some kind of bass instrument instead, so something must still be incorrect. Unless someone can easily explain what might be wrong, I'll keep experimenting and will place another call to Cakewalk if all else fails.
Thanks much for the explanation of how Reason works vs. how Sonar works. From what I had read about MIDI, I was under the impression that the keyboard transmitted only instructions for the sound and that the computer controlled which actual sound is played. It seems that in Sonar that the "computer" is actually the keyboard, and I think that's the part that I didn't understand.
Hopefully once I learn more about the keyboard and how it works (made it partway through the Access user manual but realized that I needed to use the keyboard more before I could understand it), I'll remember this day and how easy this all was! ...then onto making some good music!
After that, I contacted Cakewalk and found out that I needed to set up the instrument definitions file. Went back to the Access site and found 2 definitions files there. I downloaded the latest and then went into Options, Instruments, Define, Import in Sonar and imported the file.
Now it looks like the standard Virus definitions have been added. I then proceeded to "drag & drop" each bank from the right side over to the instrument corresponding to the Virus on the left side, per the instructions from Cakewalk (at http://www.cakewalk.com/Support/Docs/InstrumentDef.asp)
Then I got to the part about modifying the Bank Select Method - I think that this selection was already included as part of the definition file that I downloaded (clicking on the instrument on the left hand side in Sonar shows Bank Select Normal). To verify, I checked the MIDI Implementation chart in the manual for my Virus KC and it shows Control Change 32, Transmitted 0, Recognized 0 for Bank Select. Although this is about as easy for me to understand as learning Dutch (I tried once, but I'm American...lol), I think 0 and 32 is the Bank Select Normal setting so all seems o.k. with this.
Onto the final test, I opened up a new MIDI-only project in Sonar and recorded some notes from my keyboard. Then I chose "flute" instead as the patch and I heard some kind of bass instrument instead, so something must still be incorrect. Unless someone can easily explain what might be wrong, I'll keep experimenting and will place another call to Cakewalk if all else fails.
Thanks much for the explanation of how Reason works vs. how Sonar works. From what I had read about MIDI, I was under the impression that the keyboard transmitted only instructions for the sound and that the computer controlled which actual sound is played. It seems that in Sonar that the "computer" is actually the keyboard, and I think that's the part that I didn't understand.
Hopefully once I learn more about the keyboard and how it works (made it partway through the Access user manual but realized that I needed to use the keyboard more before I could understand it), I'll remember this day and how easy this all was! ...then onto making some good music!
Message 5/17 04-Jan-03 @ 10:22 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
To put it as simply as I can, you are transmitting MIDI data from your keyboard (the Virus) to the computer to be recorded as a stream of performance data in Sonar. That data is then echoed back to your synth (in this case, also the Virus). You may want to turn off what is called "Local Control." This will 'disconnect' the virus keyboard from the virus synth internally... that way you can play your virus through Sonar. This way you can record multiple tracks of MIDI data into Sonar, echoing them back to different MIDI channels which the Virus will respond to by playing multiple instruments. It's all a bit much, I know, but you'll get the hang of it. Just search and study these forums, it's all there.
By the way, the reason those MIDI files you're trying to play aren't playing back the right sounds is because they were made for a "General MIDI" instrument. This is a pretty old standard by now... it was established as a way to avoid what you're experiencing by defining standard patch numbers and what sounds they should be (patch 1, grand piano, patch 23 trumpet or whatever). Your Virus is definitely NOT a General MIDI instrument... its soundbanks don't correspond in any way to those sounds. The Virus is a whole 'nother beast than General MIDI synths. It's much better!
psy
By the way, the reason those MIDI files you're trying to play aren't playing back the right sounds is because they were made for a "General MIDI" instrument. This is a pretty old standard by now... it was established as a way to avoid what you're experiencing by defining standard patch numbers and what sounds they should be (patch 1, grand piano, patch 23 trumpet or whatever). Your Virus is definitely NOT a General MIDI instrument... its soundbanks don't correspond in any way to those sounds. The Virus is a whole 'nother beast than General MIDI synths. It's much better!
psy
Message 6/17 07-Jan-03 @ 02:25 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
I don't mean to be a dick, but if you're looking for flutes and general MIDI type performance you bought the wrong synth.
-Craig
-Craig
Message 7/17 07-Jan-03 @ 03:32 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Haha...I'm not. Just trying to make sure that Sonar is working right. The music that I intend to make will be Trance and Progressive House, and I get a lot of inspiration from Ferry Corsten, Armin van Buuren, Paul van Dyk, Piet Blank and other such DJ's. My friend in the Netherlands says that the Virus is the right synth for me!
Message 8/17 08-Jan-03 @ 02:20 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Yep, it is, but you can forget those patch layouts. All you need to do is send whatever patch number you want.. I usually enter them manually in the event list so as not to have to bother with counting patches. For a synth like the Virus where you're going to be programming your own sounds all the time, you'd go crazy keeping that list up to date. Just use the numbers
-Craig
-Craig
Message 9/17 09-Jan-03 @ 05:54 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Exactly... Craigs got it.
Don't worry about what the name of the patch is in sonar... just be sure the MIDI channel corresponds to the channel on the virus that makes the cool sound you want to use.
Sounds to me like you've WAY over-complicated it. Understandable, but just keep it simple... go to the virus, find a patch you like and tell it to respond to a certain MIDI channel.
Then set up a MIDI track in Sonar with the same MIDI in/output channel, and knock yourself out.
You'll be able to use multiple MIDI channels (with different patches on each one) if you set your synth to "multi" or "performance" mode (not sure what access calls it). OR you can get a big huge wall shuddering, window breaking patch by stacking different patches on the same channel... whatever blows your skirt up!
Psylichons right as well... disable the Local switch on the keyboard... that way you won't double the notes you're playing through the sequencer. And set Sonar "echo through" to on in the MIDI panel...
e
Don't worry about what the name of the patch is in sonar... just be sure the MIDI channel corresponds to the channel on the virus that makes the cool sound you want to use.
Sounds to me like you've WAY over-complicated it. Understandable, but just keep it simple... go to the virus, find a patch you like and tell it to respond to a certain MIDI channel.
Then set up a MIDI track in Sonar with the same MIDI in/output channel, and knock yourself out.
You'll be able to use multiple MIDI channels (with different patches on each one) if you set your synth to "multi" or "performance" mode (not sure what access calls it). OR you can get a big huge wall shuddering, window breaking patch by stacking different patches on the same channel... whatever blows your skirt up!
Psylichons right as well... disable the Local switch on the keyboard... that way you won't double the notes you're playing through the sequencer. And set Sonar "echo through" to on in the MIDI panel...
e
Message 10/17 10-Jan-03 @ 12:31 AM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
and also..just to add...even though you havent quite gotten it figured out yet, you deserve MUCH props for the effort youre putting in!
you say youre a beginner, but youve gone a long way toward learning this stuff on your own, with all your investigating and reading
good on ya. Youre learning to fish instead of being given one
I like that!
you say youre a beginner, but youve gone a long way toward learning this stuff on your own, with all your investigating and reading
good on ya. Youre learning to fish instead of being given one
I like that!
Message 11/17 10-Jan-03 @ 07:51 AM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Hey, thanks everyone! Perhaps I have managed to over-complicate it all...I hope so, because learning this synth in my spare time is sofar one of the hardest things I've ever done! lol
I even tried recording to Sonar from Reason the other day...seemed to record o.k., but I couldn't see a track for it anywhere in Sonar - maybe Reason's just omnipresent? Also tried recording a second track from Reason, but gave up on that after awhile (there's like 50 MIDI tracks in Sonar for Reason just waiting to be used, so there must be a way!)
Haven't figured out how to make those smooth, airy trance sounds like my Nederlander friends, much less a decent drum track either, but half the fun is trying, right? ...the other half would be making the holes that I've kicked into my keyboard stand! (actually, my Ultimate stand's so tough it would probably kick holes in me for trying)
Still easier than learning Dutch though I'd say...must work on that before my trip back to Europe this year...Dank u wel!
I even tried recording to Sonar from Reason the other day...seemed to record o.k., but I couldn't see a track for it anywhere in Sonar - maybe Reason's just omnipresent? Also tried recording a second track from Reason, but gave up on that after awhile (there's like 50 MIDI tracks in Sonar for Reason just waiting to be used, so there must be a way!)
Haven't figured out how to make those smooth, airy trance sounds like my Nederlander friends, much less a decent drum track either, but half the fun is trying, right? ...the other half would be making the holes that I've kicked into my keyboard stand! (actually, my Ultimate stand's so tough it would probably kick holes in me for trying)
Still easier than learning Dutch though I'd say...must work on that before my trip back to Europe this year...Dank u wel!
Message 13/17 10-Jan-03 @ 08:24 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
I have a feeling I won't want to say that to anyone whilst in Holland
Message 14/17 11-Jan-03 @ 05:17 AM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Well, to get completely off the subject of this forum, I can say that the Dutch are some of the friendliest people in the world...at least to me! I'm sure there are always exceptions (gotta have a few to distinguish good from bad, you know), but that has been my experience. I met a musician friend from Bovenkarspel online through my website (precede my email address with www. and drop the @aol if you'd like to see it), and we've been great friends for over 3 years now. Whenever I visit, I'm greeted by smiling faces and icy Grolsch's at the door! ..and this is coming from a guy in LA (where "I'll call you!" means "goodbye!"), so you KNOW it's true...lol
I think that there's some incredible music coming from Holland and Europe in general...would probably move there myself if the winters weren't so cold I'm also very thankful for discovering this forum...I feel that it's a great environment to learn things that I don't know, help others out, and I feel just a bit more connected with others who share a strong passion for making music from the heart and sharing it with others. That's what I'm all about, and I'm glad that you are here with me!
End of speech, now back to the Virus!!!!!!!!
I think that there's some incredible music coming from Holland and Europe in general...would probably move there myself if the winters weren't so cold
I'm also very thankful for discovering this forum...I feel that it's a great environment to learn things that I don't know, help others out, and I feel just a bit more connected with others who share a strong passion for making music from the heart and sharing it with others. That's what I'm all about, and I'm glad that you are here with me! End of speech, now back to the Virus!!!!!!!!
Message 15/17 11-Jan-03 @ 03:02 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Those were really wise words I wrote there Craig... if I may say so myself. I'm one of those friendly Dutch people
Message 16/17 14-Jan-03 @ 02:32 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
Oh yes, the Dutch were extremely friendly to me when I was there as well. I'm just always apprehensive about saying something to someone when I don't understand what I'm saying.. Next thing I know I'll be arrested for trying to buy smack or something
-Craig
-Craig
Message 17/17 14-Jan-03 @ 10:39 PM - RE: Virus KC and Sonar
hehe, there are worse things you'll get away with here.. disturbing but true.
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