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Subject: Cheaper monitors the way?

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Original Message 1/40 29-Jan-03 @ 02:20 AM - Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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Ok, Really struggling with my mixing here-

Im using a pair of JBL studio series monitors (forget model number)and am thinking of changing them- I can get my mixes to sound pretty good on them, A/B'ing against pro tracks sounds similar. i listen on a couple of hi-fi's round the house and everything sounds well spaced out and eq'd. The mix sounds comparable(ish) to the tracks im listening against.

Im working in clubs 2 or 3 nights a week so i can listen to them on a big system, however, as soon as they get played across a club system they sound dreadful.

My friend has got these ancient shabby sony speakers hooked up to his stereo and when i played him the track, i could here exactly where the mix was wrong on his set-up, like i could on the big club systems.

Basically looking for any advice on where to go from here- they dont make ns-10's anymore right?
When i bought these monitors i A/B'd against a few others including Spirit Absolute's etc but ive now lost total faith in these jbl monitors along with my ears

Any thoughts appreciated

SpinbacK

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Message 2/40 29-Jan-03 @ 03:01 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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maybe get some Auratone cubes?

kinda odd that you could go around and the mixes would sound good til theyre loud. usually the other way around?

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Message 3/40 29-Jan-03 @ 03:26 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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I spose i need todays equivalent of the ns-10?

These jbl's are more hi-fi than monitor and are colouring the sound, need something thats going to give me a proper image.

Its soul destroying spending the week getting a mix ready, only for it to sound awful when i test it out, and doubley frustrating when I take it back home and it sounds fine through these.

I know this will sound stupid, but id rather trust what somebody else advised to buy, rather than listening for myself because i trusted my ears the last time and came home with these!

Ive got a servo170 amp, just need something thats going to show up bad mixing instead of covering up

Spinback

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Message 4/40 29-Jan-03 @ 06:52 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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After a bit of reading old posts ive noticed alot of good things said about the Alesis active M1's.

Older but good flat reference no?

spinback?

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Message 5/40 29-Jan-03 @ 08:37 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

milan

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ah, so your monitors rent actually that good? i mean, they dont reproduce even the "pro" tracks faithfully? why not look for a 2nd hand ns10's mebbe? myself, i'd look into somethig with lower bass extension if the tracks are gonna be getting any club play, like maybe hhb circle5's? they seem to be my favourite amongst passives.

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Message 6/40 29-Jan-03 @ 09:14 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

nomad

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what exactly is the problem? you say you a/b with pro mixes and they sound comparable, so what do you find missing when you get to the big system?

you know about fletcher-munson? maybe just try testing the mix at a few different volumes?

you'd be surprised the difference a good amp can make too (i wouuldn't call the servo 170 that good).

i have heard some people say they don't like jbls because a lot of their speakers use horns instead of 'normal' tweeters... but other people really love them...

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Message 7/40 29-Jan-03 @ 09:56 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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Im usin KRK V6 and getting near perfect translations all across the board. honest

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Message 8/40 29-Jan-03 @ 04:36 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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Milan, The professionaly done tracks sound great at home AND out, Mine just sound good/ok at home and rubbish out.

So i spose im looking for a monitor that doesnt make my and professional mixes sound so good at home.

I like the idea of having Ns10's to reference against, or the Alesis active M1's mebbe?

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Message 9/40 29-Jan-03 @ 07:01 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

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like rubbish how exactly? too much low end
robbing headroom?

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Message 10/40 29-Jan-03 @ 07:09 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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you should find yourself a frequencey analyzer. just to take a look at what your mixes are doin, and compare them

sometimes visuals help

also..whats your room like?

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Message 11/40 29-Jan-03 @ 08:20 PM Edit: 29-Jan-03 | 08:21 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

psylichon

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hmmmm... freq analyzer? I see where you're coming from, influx, but...

"The professionaly done tracks sound great at home AND out, Mine just sound good/ok at home and rubbish out."

Therein lies the problem. Just compare your stuff to pro stuff while you're mixing. Match levels and everything so you're only comparing tonal balances. If your stuff doesn't sound "great" like the pro mix does then you're not done yet! Simple as that. You can do it with any speaker system really.

psy

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Message 12/40 29-Jan-03 @ 08:58 PM Edit: 29-Jan-03 | 09:26 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

milan

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i think his problem *might* also be a lack of "punch", which may have to do with either speakers with not so great dynamics, or more likely not knowing how to listen for "punch". i'm only saying this because i get mixes from people which sound rather good on a hifi, and even on monitors at normal listening volume, but as soon as you turn it up they turn into this big, swolen, bloated mess of sound which sounds rather poor and does not push air like you'd expect it too.

Spinback, you think i might be on to something?

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Message 13/40 29-Jan-03 @ 10:23 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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as soon as I typed frequency analyzer I realized I was setting someone up to use a crutch

ignore what I said, and just practice. youll get it

it very well could be crappy monitors. happens. but not quite as often as crappy sounds, crappy mixing environment, etc...

or so Ive been told. not like I really KNOW anything on my own

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Message 14/40 29-Jan-03 @ 10:37 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

Stuff

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"I spose i need todays equivalent of the ns-10?"

Get a pair of Genelec 1030's then!

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Message 15/40 29-Jan-03 @ 11:43 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

milan

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bollox!

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Message 16/40 30-Jan-03 @ 12:38 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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D- 'like rubbish how exactly? too much low end robbing headroom?'

ok heres what i did-

Compiled my drums and samples, did some loops in reason, edited etc, burned cd and loaded them into G4/PT 5l.e 24bit session.

Recorded all synth parts green/yellow

Arranged track, routed individual tracks across 6 or 7 busses, and onto a Stereo master, being very careful not to drive any of the busses hard onto the master.

Master Output from PT card through Mackie1202, with a bit of Master gain, into the PC!

The track sounded great at home, went out and it sounded like:-

Drums- too loud/ no thickness.
Hats- far to sharp
Synth- no audible midrange hardly
Bass- Too loud, boomy.

As hard as it is to believe i didnt notice any of this at home!?

Now, like i said at start, i could here the exact same faults on my friends old fu�ked speakers like i could in the club, he said he thought they were sony's but they were that old they didnt have grills/badges so i cant be sure- anyway they were VERY revealing, if i had something like that at home i could fix the mix no problem. Im presuming this to be why people used those yamaha's? ive never heard them, but i could really use something like those.

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Message 17/40 30-Jan-03 @ 01:00 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

spinback

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milan- the punch thing

Under my log in name (BlooVooDoo) theres a mix e'qed with these mystery monitors, and while the song isnt really that good the mix sounds incredible both at home and in the clubs, especially in the club systems actually. This is why im so upset, i feel like im pissin into the wind with these JBL's , wish i had the model number of them!

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Message 18/40 30-Jan-03 @ 02:47 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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"Master Output from PT card through Mackie1202, with a bit of Master gain, into the PC! "

just curious but WHY? why not just mixdown in protools?

and also:
"Compiled my drums and samples, did some loops in reason, edited etc, burned cd and loaded them into G4/PT 5l.e 24bit session. "

again..WHY

you only have reason for your PC? not that this really matters in the sound quality necessarily..but..

to be honest it just sounds like you just need some practice mixing. Learning to use HighPass eq on sounds helps a lot (and is a nice perk to having a DAW...cuz Ive NEVER seen a budget mixer with variable highpass eq!)

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Message 19/40 30-Jan-03 @ 03:02 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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influx,

the first one- dont have a cd burner on the mac (yet), so its the only way to get the track onto my pc/cd (although i borrowed my friends zip drive earlier which im about to try)

2nd- yes only on pc, before i got the mac

maybe Im just going to have to face facts that my ears are hopeless, grrr

although- when i was reading through a pile of old posts on monitoring i came across lots of posts on people saying stuff like -

" My -XXXXXX- monitors exagerate the top end so i always mix less than i think to make up for it"

I realise room dynamics play a part of the monitors sound but I cant be arsed mixing that way. I want a true uncoloured sounding monitor

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Message 20/40 30-Jan-03 @ 04:20 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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theres almost no such thing it seems

some just dont f- things up as bad. maybe you need to switch

whats the model on the JBLs again? can help see if you can maybe get some $$ for em and get yourself something thatll suit you better

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Message 21/40 30-Jan-03 @ 05:10 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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im over in the uk mate, but thanks for the offer. I'd quite like to keep these and have a flatter set of monitors alongside- I may just have to scrape some cash together and see what I can afford.

Problem being in scotland where theres not much used stuff happening- I read a few favourable reviews on those alesis M1 actives so ill check them out, and theres a few sets of ns10's used on the sos readers ad's, bit of a lottery tho- you come across them much?

SpinbacK

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Message 22/40 30-Jan-03 @ 06:49 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

psylichon

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I've seen Events used in studios pro and amateur for years now. They come in all sizes, all price ranges, and for the most part they all sound the same, tone-wise. Most people's experience (mine included) is that they translate very well to other systems. If anything, they have a slightly splashy high end, but this can be easily dealt with. The best thing is you can find Event stuff discontinued and used and it's all really great shit. That's how I got my Trias, and I love em to death. Everyone that ever visits my place agrees.

psy

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Message 23/40 30-Jan-03 @ 08:51 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

milan

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aight Spinback, punch is definitely not a problem on this track you got up on your user page

actually it does sound totaly decent (i will_not comment on the music!). so, sod it... get different monitors then...

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Message 24/40 30-Jan-03 @ 10:15 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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yup. theres always Event/Echo

they got the TR8 out now and at $499 US/pair...sheesh

M-Audio BX8

thing is..why bother getting SHITTY monitors like NS10s?

I mean...that crap about "if they sound good on these they sound good anywhere"..why the hell would you want to make it so unenjoyable to listen to your own tunes?!?!?

so...again...I have KRK V6s. look into them. Theyre not the super top end be all end all of monitors but they do a damn fine job...plenty of low end, clear mids and highs, and loud enough but not all that loud really.

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Message 25/40 30-Jan-03 @ 11:50 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

Breakerbox

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i have had 20/20s for a while and they sound good.. but my mxes dont translate very well.. but i think it has to do with my crappy mixing skills.. and Influxes mixes are fucking tight.. listening to cd here... sounds so good.

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Message 26/40 30-Jan-03 @ 01:59 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

psylichon

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the only reason to get NS10's is if you do a lot of mixing in a lot of different studios and you want to get used to "the standard." That's the only reason people use em!

psy

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Message 27/40 30-Jan-03 @ 03:12 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

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I thought it was the "forcing you to get the
midrange right" thing

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Message 28/40 30-Jan-03 @ 03:23 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

milan

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its both probably. i'd just prefer something with more low end for dance...

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Message 29/40 30-Jan-03 @ 09:31 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

BJT

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Spinback, this is a common problem, its actually very common for someones first whitelabel pressing.

I thought the NS10s were for mixing songs for radio or TV. Whereas if you mix for a club system you need bass fidelity?
You first get the bass right, then mix from there upward?

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Message 30/40 31-Jan-03 @ 12:47 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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Ah, i see- well to be honest the only medium im interested in getting my stuff duplicated onto is vinyl, i read and read shitloads on mastering for it, about stereo phasing, bass etc.

one thing ive been thinking about alot the last while tho:-

Is it important to have the master cd sounding absolutely flying on a big system if im just going to hand it on to a vinyl engineer to master and cut?

Wouldn't they just prefer a flat mix to compress/eq themselves? afterall, what sounds good on cd may not on vinyl?.... no?

Actually, does it have to sound amazing at all (the mix, not the track!)or can that be produced/recovered through a good final multiband eq by a good pressing house/engineer? Wont they just compress the tits off it anyway?

SpinbacK

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Message 31/40 31-Jan-03 @ 12:50 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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Influx- you just got one released right?- how did that go?

spinback

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Message 32/40 31-Jan-03 @ 01:20 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

milan

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you should get it sounding as good as possible before sending it off for mastering. ideally, they would slightly tweak the freqencies and make it a bit louder, but thats about it. i hear many tunes which have been compressed to jesus at the mastering stage but you can bet that the tonal balance was simmilar to that even before mastering. you see, fixing stuff at the mastring stage is a rather risky business because you cant really influence one element without influencing the rest, even with multiband compression. so... make it sound good, test it out with a version where you *maybe* did some limiting on the final mix, just to get the loudness there, but send an unprocessed version of the final mix to the mastering house. your mix should be maybe about 90% of the finished product, e.g. as good as you can make it.

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Message 33/40 31-Jan-03 @ 01:31 AM Edit: 31-Jan-03 | 01:56 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

BlooVooDoo

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Think I may do a bit of re-aranging, the positioning wont be helping much,

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Message 34/40 31-Jan-03 @ 01:35 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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got 3 tracks out now. 2 on KWS, one on Dulcet in FL

how did it go? meaning?

I got the mixes as good as I could...to where it sounded ok, then had it mastered (which, to answer your question is NOT where the majority of stuff goes on..as others stated its only a "finalizing" process in which slight compression/limiting and eqing are done. well..maybe not so slight sometimes, but...your job is to get it solid as can be from the start)

my mixes have gotten better with practice. thats kinda all there is to it. Im lucky to have two friends who are pretty well-versed in audio engineering so Ive been blessed

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Message 35/40 31-Jan-03 @ 02:10 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

BlooVooDoo

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yup, thats the kinda thing i was asking. cheers

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Message 36/40 31-Jan-03 @ 03:13 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

influx

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if your monitors are as tucked in the corner as that pic makes it seem then you could be in for some REAL trouble.

got anything behind em?

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Message 37/40 31-Jan-03 @ 03:58 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

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so, essentially you've got an 11 ft cube with a little cubby along one side??!?! oh no! any treatment?

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Message 38/40 31-Jan-03 @ 06:58 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

SpinbacK

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Nope, fraid not!

I'm thinkin of rearanging onto the door wall so the sound wont be trapped, but the room isn't 'strictly' a studio see, so Ive other factors to take into account.

Basically im thinking of emptying the room and building and arranging it as ideal a studio as i can first, then fitting the other bits in to whats left over (i.e-bed!) instead of the other way round which is what seems to be the case just now.

so kinda like checking my bed into that cubby, and picking the best wall to start on...

Any thoughts?

spinback

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Message 39/40 31-Jan-03 @ 07:10 AM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

psylichon

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put your shit against the 11-ft window wall. make sure you can see out that window. smoke fatties regularly. make hits.

psy

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Message 40/40 31-Jan-03 @ 02:38 PM - RE: Cheaper monitors the way?

spinback

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LOL, dont do the last two, but ill have a go at the first couple

spinback

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