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Original Message 1/34 09-Mar-03 @ 07:42 AM - free will

psylichon

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Does it exist? Is it an illusion? I can't find an argument, either philosophical or logical, that even begins to demonstrate its existence. Is abandoning free will a cop-out? Is belief in it humanity's main mistake?

I have a LOT to say on this, but I'm gonna leave it for now. Mainly because I'm just curious what my fellow DT'ers think.

psy

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Message 2/34 09-Mar-03 @ 08:20 AM - RE: free will

psylichon

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only halfway through it, and not sure of its conclusion (if there is one at all) but it's a fascinating read nonetheless. ^^^

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Message 3/34 09-Mar-03 @ 11:25 AM Edit: 09-Mar-03 | 05:41 PM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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How can we have free will? It is more of a concept than an actuality. I don't mean this in a bad way. I am talking about Biology here. We have instincts and drives. Who we are and what we do is built on past experience coupled with our instincts and emotions. There are even many respected Psychoanalysts who believe that conscious thought itself is born of random unconscious signals and thoughts, and that the way we percieve consciousness is almost and illusion. Our conscious mind is only the tip of a very deep iceberg that we know very little about. We are highly eveolved socially. Living in the most complex society of any creature that we are aware of, hence our large brains and complex languages, but other than that we are not majorly different from any other mamal on this planet. The question that I'd like to know the answer to is do other animals feel that they are in control of their own lives? You would have thought so.

At any rate, truly free will can't exist within the minds of creatures of instinct, emotion and experience, such as ourselves. If anyone has been watching Derren Brown, or has ever learned about human Psychology, including areas such as Neurolinguistic Programming, then you will know what I mean.

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 4/34 09-Mar-03 @ 03:25 PM - RE: free will

man called clay

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we are also just as guided by the stars as any notion of what we want...or who we might think we are.
i'm a double libra (w/sag rising) so it's hard for me to back down when there's a contest involving some issue regarding justice.
what sign are you guys?

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Message 5/34 09-Mar-03 @ 03:50 PM - RE: free will

Trillium

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Libra/Libra rising, Pisces moon.........

Psy........

I've given up, there's no free will. ;)

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Message 6/34 09-Mar-03 @ 03:58 PM - RE: free will

Zazza

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I do believe in free will... not because of any application of intellectual rigor (philosophers have been debating this one since the year dot) but I choose to..

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Message 7/34 09-Mar-03 @ 03:59 PM Edit: 09-Mar-03 | 04:01 PM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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How strange. Three doubles already. Wonder if it's a musician thing? I wouldn't have thought you peeps would be into Astrology, so I have never mentioned it, but I am Scorpio/Scorpio, with Aquairus rising (I think), and it does tend to show

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 8/34 09-Mar-03 @ 04:11 PM - RE: free will

man called clay

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yeah...this is strange and cool....

and yes....free-will exists or we'd all be stuck in dancetech forums forever!

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Message 9/34 09-Mar-03 @ 05:33 PM Edit: 09-Mar-03 | 05:33 PM - RE: free will

Zazza

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You mean we're free to leave?

...............................>

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Message 10/34 09-Mar-03 @ 09:46 PM - RE: free will

man called clay

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i was only speaking hypothetically

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Message 11/34 09-Mar-03 @ 11:27 PM - RE: free will

bedwyr

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free willy!

oh, he's already free.

damn, and dead too?

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Message 12/34 10-Mar-03 @ 04:24 PM - RE: free will

knowa it all

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psy: hey you brought it up and I don't feel like working so here goes...

definitely check out steven pinker's "how the mind works". it's not too technical (and you can skip the more tech sections without really losing anything).

my reading of pinker's (not wholly original) argument is that as empirical scientists, we have to consider humans as following the same determinist laws that governs other inhabitiants of the universe. but our sense of morality is integral to what it means (to us) to be human, and there is no reason to give it up just because it falls outside the domain of scientific inquiry.

science is not about "tapping into reality"--it's about making causal predictions, which are largely probabalistic (meaning that we can determine how X will TEND to behave under Y conditions).

nor is morality about "tapping into reality". our sense of right and wrong is important to us becuase it's important to us, not because Right and Wrong "really exist".

concepts like "responsibility" and "love" may be difficult to operationalize and study empirically, but that doesen't make them irrelevant.

a school of thought called "eliminative materialism" (stich, churchland) claimed that because "beliefs" and "desires" have no empirical status, they were wrongheaded and needed to be replaced by a theory of mind based on a scientific understaning of consciousness. but then they had nothing to offer...do YOU have a better way of talking about everyday human behavior?

it's not about whether or nor free will "exists", but what we gain or lose by choosing to behave as if it does.

steve:

"There are even many respected Psychoanalysts who believe that conscious thought itself is born of random unconscious signals and thoughts"

there are no psychoanalysts who believe this. (maybe you mean "psychologists"?). the presmise of psychodynamic theories is that consciousness is meaningful and related to unconscious motivations in an organized way. some cognitive science types write stuff like this because it's provacative. it makes stuff for sense like dreams--you "interpret" the random neuronal firings as narrative which often makes little sense. if your interpritiaion is meaningful, then it;s meaningful, but there's no Mr. Meaning sitting there waiting to be discovered.

"and that the way we percieve consciousness is almost and illusion."

how can you be wrong about your experience? you may be wrong about what causes it, but the ONE thing you cannot be wrong about is 'what it feels like to be you'.

Our conscious mind is only the tip of a very deep iceberg that we know very little about."

yup.

"We are highly eveolved socially. Living in the most complex society of any creature that we are aware of, hence our large brains and complex languages, but other than that we are not majorly different from any other mamal on this planet."

this does not qualify as a "major difference"? tough cookie.

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Message 13/34 10-Mar-03 @ 04:44 PM - RE: free will

man called clay

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dr.kia... if your interpritiaion is meaningful, then it;s meaningful, but there's no Mr. Meaning sitting there waiting to be discovered. <<<

but we can't know this....as surely many of the
firings are random and yet they're based upon ready-experience which has seeped in and made an imprint within us.
i believe we dream before we are even born (this is not a basis for a pro-life argument on my part, however...that's another issue in which i side with the child and mother in determining whether the child will have to withsatnd a lifetime of suffering in unready hands....i'm purely pro-choice).
anyway....i believe dreams are not to be discounted as merely random designs.

here's my dream of some weeks ago.
in a somewhat idyllic warm afternoon setting....it feels old english...sun a nd breeze gently pushing through the curtains. i'm sitting at an ancient underwood typewriter....hacking away.
an insect of a bee-sih nature starts to take to my key-hammers...tapping away. i always try to avoid killing even the peskiest of insects and so i start to shoo him away and attempt to persuade him of his certain death were he to get caught between a hammer striking and the paper. he comes up at me and grimaces and yells at me like i'm just some jerk trying to bully him.
i continue to attempt to shoo this fellow yellow and black guy as i try to continue typing.
he goes up under the typewriter and out from underneath emerges a giant blackarmour-plated warrior wasp/scarab type beetle and pounces upon my face.
i slightly awakened.
probably no meaning. just random images flickering.
i have tons of dreams i can derive mr. meaning
from.
in fact i have dreams of dreams and being monitored and discussed by apanel of experts and even a national television audience.

one man's dreams becoming a major successful television series.

earthling

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Message 14/34 10-Mar-03 @ 05:14 PM - RE: free will

nutoniom

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Robert Jastrow is another fascinating read, "The Enchanted Loom"

ram, scorpio rising *sigh...*

oh, and chinese ? monkey

free will hun? Is the algorithm patented?

"i will not get drunk again, i will not get drunk again, i will not get drunk again, i will not get drunk again, there's a slight possibility i might get drunk again, , there's a possibility i might get drunk again, i might get drunk again, i W I L L get drunk again"

yup, free wheelin' again

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Message 15/34 10-Mar-03 @ 06:10 PM Edit: 10-Mar-03 | 06:28 PM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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"there are no psychoanalysts who believe this. (maybe you mean "psychologists"?)"

I didn't mean Psychologists, I meant those who study psychoanalytic theory. I have read countless theories that diverge quite drastically from Freuds original Psychodynamic Theory. Yes, I know that alot of these theories are complete rubish but I was just making the point that such theories have been created. Don't forget that some bizarre theories come from very respected psychoanalyic theorists that stem directly from Freuds traditions.

"how can you be wrong about your experience?" That's not what I meant at all. I was referring to the way that we perceive our own thoughts (images, words, etc), not experience.

"this does not qualify as a "major difference"? tough cookie." Re-read, I said that 'other than that' there is no major difference. What I was getting at is that while we are in a far more complex society that other animals, we are fundamentaly the same. We are made of the same stuff, and living in a larger society will not give us the free will that animals are lacking, if indeed they are lacking it, which was the question and point.

Don't mean to be nit-picking, and I know that I could have worded my points better, but I felt that I needed to clear the air a bit.

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 16/34 10-Mar-03 @ 07:50 PM - RE: free will

knowa

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I hope that didn't seem like an attack steve, I didn't mean it to...strange overtired burst of energy this morning. no doubt, there are many bizzarre psychodynamic theories. I guess I just thought you were referring to some stuff you weren't...I'm always tempted by these debates but I never really take the time to explain my position clearly so I should probably just refrain. I'll start now.

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Message 17/34 10-Mar-03 @ 10:05 PM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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Is cool

Steve.

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Message 18/34 10-Mar-03 @ 10:52 PM - RE: free will

errata

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of course we have free will.

Site astrology, karma, god, government, etc all you like. In the end we ARE responsible for ourselves and the mess that we call life. Shirking the responsibility that comes with self determination is the practice of the coward!

I believe that taking the view that we are hopeless victims in a charade of co-existence is a delightful metaphor for sitting in a closet with a shotgun and a bottle of whiskey drinking ourselves stupid and hoping things don't get so bad because of it that we can't take it anymore.

It's sort of like growing up and taking a mature attitude with yourself. Self determination, or free will is merely the idea that we are responsible for who we are, how we behave and what happens to us!

e

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Message 19/34 10-Mar-03 @ 11:31 PM Edit: 10-Mar-03 | 11:34 PM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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I know exactly where you are coming from Errata. We still have the ability to be strong enough to alter our major actions to some extent. But what about the forces that drive our decisions when we are being responsible? And who is it that defined our concept of responsibility anyway? Sure we must all take responsibility for our major actions, but on a finer scale our actions are still influenced by forces that we have no control of. We may not grab the arse of that fit club-bird dancing in front of us, but we still consider it for a split second and the drive to commit such an action still alters where we are looking, how we are fidgeting and how we are feeling. And further down the road, the memory of the fit bird will still affect us on a very fine scale. Total up the amount of experiences of this scale over a period of a persons lifetime and you begin to realise that each little experience we have will accumulate to influence our greater actions further down the road. We can not choose who we fall in love with. We can not choose those people who annoy us for no apparent reason. We can not choose our neuroses or tastes. These are all things that are influenced by past experiences and drives.

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 20/34 11-Mar-03 @ 12:06 AM - RE: free will

errata

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Past experiences are based in the actions we took in the past! Drives are temporary conditions based either on habit or instinct (and are also based on actions we toook in the past)... both of which can be overcome and ultimately avoided. It's YOU who wants to grab her ass, and with enough personal intent this desire (seemingly forced upon you) will fade if you choose to not be the person who wants to grab her ass! it will take time, of course and lots of energy but not because you must battle it out with some external force... but because you've allowed the selfish desire for young girls asses to be your motivator for so long that you've allowed yourself to believe it's not even you who desires the grasping!

Ultimately I reject this kind of thinking because it takes away the need for personal responsibility. A mass murderer who rapes and kills children and says, "It's what I am... how can I control it? I don't choose to rape and kill little children! I don't ask for these thoughts and desires!"

See what i mean?

e

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Message 21/34 11-Mar-03 @ 12:51 AM - RE: free will

psylichon

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The problem as I see it at this point in my life is this: people have a hard time holding two things which seem incongruous in their head, two opposites, even though those two things are required to describe the whole. It always has to be one or the other with us. We talk about grey areas in matter of love, war, life, death, all matters social, but when it comes to a matter as important as free will, we say it has to be one way or the other.

I won't even dealve into the quantum mechanical analogies, because the dualities that exist there fill many volumes. If you want empirical proof of the prevalance of dualities in the universe (perhaps its defining characteristic), the history of quantum mechanics is a good start.

Therefore, I think it is possible for us to have, for all intents and purposes, free will in the material world. This is an illusion, but one that works, much like all of the subatomic world.

I think you will perceive free will until the day you die. At that point, things won't seem so linear and causal. People refer to their "life flashing before their eyes"... time loses meaning. At this point you can see your place in the universe from god's point of view... the eternal view. Until the point of your death, I think you have to live in the reality that in this material world, you are perceived responsible for your actions. You're not, but that only matters in the eternal.

This view does not remove personal responsibility. There are still prices to pay for every action. But as a society leans towards such a viewpoint, however, I think the recognition that all action stems from the eternal will guide personal decisions down the right path. More and more trancendental people with the ability to hold dualities viscerally are what is needed to guide societies to the world of the philosopher rulers.

If murder were made legal tomorrow, would you go kill anyone? Why not? Because you are being guided by more than just "free will."

psy

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Message 22/34 11-Mar-03 @ 12:53 AM - RE: free will

psylichon

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and re: past experiences.

living in the past is mankind's #1 illness.

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Message 23/34 11-Mar-03 @ 01:05 AM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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"Past experiences are based in the actions we took in the past"

So if a dog comes up from behind and bites you when you are four and you end up having a fear of dogs that makes you act irrationally when you are around them, that is your fault?

I also agree that this does not take away the need for personal responsibility. Just because our behaviour is heavily influenced by experience and emotion, does not mean that we have no control over it whatsoever. Although, in the case of a psychotic murderer, they are mentally ill and usually do not have any control as their mind doesn't work correctly.

"people have a hard time holding two things which seem incongruous in their head"

Very true. But surely the concept of truly free will involves the idea that we are in complete control. Not half in control and half behaving as result of various influences, which I feel is the case.

"If murder were made legal tomorrow, would you go kill anyone? Why not? Because you are being guided by more than just "free will.""

Yup!

Regards.

Steve.

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Message 24/34 11-Mar-03 @ 01:16 AM Edit: 11-Mar-03 | 01:17 AM - RE: free will

bedwyr

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can i grab her arse now? and does anybody know the fate of the recently freed willy? he was a fish you know, hmm, mammal.

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Message 25/34 11-Mar-03 @ 01:53 AM - RE: free will

pict

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If you set yourself up in direct confrontation with your desires you're on to a loser,you can only overcome your instincts with reason a faculty that has possibly atrophied beyond recovery in the West.

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Message 26/34 11-Mar-03 @ 06:16 AM - RE: free will

psylichon

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should you overcome your instincts though? Shouldn't you follow your bliss? I believe the true guidance for your life flows from within, and only there can you find the answers for the decisions in your life. Isn't that why we do music?

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Message 27/34 11-Mar-03 @ 03:08 PM - RE: free will

moonunit

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protuberances , hmm

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Message 28/34 11-Mar-03 @ 04:00 PM - RE: free will

��R

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Wasn't there a movie called Free Willy. I think there's where you'll find your answer.

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Message 29/34 11-Mar-03 @ 04:02 PM - RE: free will

psylichon

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ok, that's two free willy references now. I'm blowing the whistle and starting the play over.

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Message 30/34 11-Mar-03 @ 05:06 PM - RE: free will

BJT

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No, I mean Yes, I mean no I meant yes but said no.

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Message 31/34 11-Mar-03 @ 06:46 PM - RE: free will

��R

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LOL @ Psy and BJT! I didn't read the whole thread. I missed the first Free Willy post. If I had an hour I'd throw down my thoughts and beliefs on the matter which are basically the path more and more freedom.

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Message 32/34 11-Mar-03 @ 07:19 PM - RE: free will

CHEDDAR

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Like Sitar I have stuff to say but i will content with

Our biological (physical/chemical) similarity does not preclude free will but does infer similarity and commonality

Thinking outside of the box (free will) still needs a box

did someone mention free porn?

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Message 33/34 11-Mar-03 @ 09:00 PM - RE: free will

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free willy?... i ing charge an hourly fee myself!

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Message 34/34 12-Mar-03 @ 12:30 AM - RE: free will

Steve Roughley

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Tee-hee-hee... you make me laugh K

Steve.

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