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Subject: So, there's no proof?

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Original Message 1/53 14-Mar-03 @ 04:56 AM - So, there's no proof?

Martin S.

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http://www.news4colorado.com/Global/story.asp?S=1178349

Satan Inside (TM)

So much for the liberals who say there's no proof of terrorist links...lol

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Message 2/53 14-Mar-03 @ 05:41 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

BJT

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Well der, its been known Saddam has been trying to appease palestinians for decades. Extremist muslims still hate him. What about Iran's involvement or Saudi Arabia????

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Message 3/53 14-Mar-03 @ 06:03 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

errata

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this isn't news... we all know He's paid money to the families of Martyrs...

People don't argue his terrorist links, they argue his links to al Queda.

I suppose EVERY country that has supported terror as a means of regime change is now on the Hit List? Every nation that has funneled money or resources into repressed rebel groups so that they could practice suicide bombing, and other terror acts on the innocent? Is that what you're suggesting?

Careful, now!

e

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Message 4/53 14-Mar-03 @ 09:21 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

cheddar

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doesnt the us fund terrorists here an there, St Patricks day celebrations for the old country, an that ignores deep cover gov employees getting up to undemocratic behaviour.

You got to be smarter than the dog, i mean when they point don't look where they point or, like the dog, look at the end of the finger, look at the body, the face, anywhere, most especially the opposite fkn direction.

The machinery of becoming pres is ultra skilled in media manipulation, forget "did he.. didn't he" it's put there to excersize the jaws of fishwifes, look at what is going on. Increasing global legislation to reduce our rights and increase the gov's, increasing % of GDP being funnelled into the military when there is no competition for super power status, cultural persecution in bulk , wars for individual financial profit, and lets not forget (thought the length of this (advertising) campaign makes it hard to remember) the massive diversion of the everyday business of government to account to its electorate.

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Message 5/53 14-Mar-03 @ 09:29 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

cheddar

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and another thing. All this crp about "are there still terrorists out there", "have we caught them all yet". Terrorists arnt born they are made. and somewhere between "your either with us or against us" anti terrorist legislation, toothless media and the lack of any gov response to the largest public demonstrations in history means there may be more to come

action causes results, can we know what will happen?

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Message 6/53 14-Mar-03 @ 03:00 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

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oh, yes, Martin S., that'll show "those liberals" lol. twat.

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Message 7/53 14-Mar-03 @ 04:20 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

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ha ha ha - I'm still pissed that the US gov't spent 15 years using a so-called 'weapons defense tracking station' in Uk to spy on british and other european corporations. Nice!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 8/53 14-Mar-03 @ 06:12 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

influx

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what a stupid smug attempt at justification

youre probably one of those people "rallying" by waving the american flag and saying "support our troops"

or maybe youre my buddy who came over the other night and said, simply "gladiate" in reference to our actions over there.

yes. gladiate indeed. why not

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Message 9/53 15-Mar-03 @ 01:18 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Def Z

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Cheddar...

"doesnt the us fund terrorists here an there, St Patricks day celebrations for the old country, an that ignores deep cover gov employees getting up to undemocratic behaviour."

Being from Boston, it is my understanding that some people from around here support the IRA. Not the US government. Some people. There's a difference.

I could be wrong, though. I'd be interested to the see that in the next budget proposal coming up. Do you think "support for the IRA" is part of "Discressionary Spending"? or does it have it's own line...

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Message 10/53 15-Mar-03 @ 03:13 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

man called clay

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proof....or otherwise whether you know murderous drug dealers etc....lo-key state dept. doc shows any war mounted now will make democracy nearly impossible to fulfill in iraq. bush is the michael jackson of politics...born and raised to an overzealous and hungry father who never allowed the soul a childhood...now it's all fight fight fight...i'm bad...i'm bad....all you gotta do is....
go suck an egg dork.

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Message 11/53 15-Mar-03 @ 03:18 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

man called clay

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ps that overzealous father was the guy who funded saddam all these years only to have saddam thumb his nose at him later. this ain't about terrorism...this is about
gangster ethics.
ya don fuk wit da mob.
or as the bumper sticker says....don't mess with texas.

okay...now go insure democracy will NEVER happen in the mideast as a result of your holy war.
we'll watch from here thank you.

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Message 12/53 15-Mar-03 @ 04:34 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

man called clay

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and carry that document around with you as you go converting islam to bushlam.

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Message 13/53 15-Mar-03 @ 02:59 PM Edit: 15-Mar-03 | 03:21 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

��R

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And knock it off with the Liberal tag. That's for people who haven't much of substance to say. Or we could start calling rightwingers nazis.

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Message 14/53 15-Mar-03 @ 03:58 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

man called clay

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yes...pinko works fine for me.

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Message 15/53 16-Mar-03 @ 10:33 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

obliviouw

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Fact: The whole thing that started this fugging mess was 911. Fact: 15 of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Fact: Saudi Arabia has no separation of Church and state. Fact: The textbooks used in Saudi Arabian schools preach hatred toward America and Western culture in general. Fact: The Saudi Royal family is worth Billions yet provides little or no money for public education free from religios zealotry and in fact supports their religious leaders due to fear of being removed from power. Seems to me before we start bombing the whole planet we might start putting an end to the the real training camps of terror, their bigoted religous schooling. Fact: I hate religion in general. It only serves to breed ideological extremists. Most Religions are so full of contradictions it boggles my mind how people could embrace such ridiculous crap......... Their was a time in when Christian/Western European nations were controlled soley by the church. I think they called it the "DARK AGES" Freedom from this mental gag order came during "The Renaissance" When intellect and reason guided our views, as they did in Ancient Greece where democracy came from. Any questions???????????????

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Message 16/53 16-Mar-03 @ 11:30 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

milan

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fact: you're talking rubbish dude.

question: were you sentenced to american public school system or something?

fact: you dont even have a name

question: are you 13 or so? sure do sound like it.

fact: i'm out of here... peas biach

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Message 17/53 16-Mar-03 @ 12:14 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

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no questions, but 'The Dark Ages' was only in christian europe because the church denied science. Islam did not, as it is founded on science with no deity and absolutely NO idol worship allowed, not even an image of their prophet is allowed. So there was no 'dark ages' in islam, rather the other way round, in Islamic states at that time they had the cream of global scientist, the biggest universities and lecturing hospitals etc.

I dont think you'll find that during 'the renaissance' religious liberalism existed much either.

regarding the seperation of religion from state etc, well, it's always a compromise isn't it?... we might not have the flaws of their legal system, but then again is our's perfect?... people defending their home from an attacker or breakin or attack often find themselves locked up for years for defending themselves or their home while the attacker goes free and even in some cases, the attacker sues the victim for negligence or injury or some such crap - ("My client badly cut his arm on the defendants window glass while in the process of breaking into the defendants window to rob his house, thus hampering my clients future trade as a burglar") - so everything has flaws.. in may cases, our westernised legal system offers up ludicrous instances of injustice.

and for a final nail in the coffin, whilst public executions might seem distasteful, the USA is the only western 'democracy' left that executes people, and wether done behind closed doors with chemicals or in public with a sword or gun... what's the differecne.. barbarism (if you consider the death penalty as 'barbaric') is barbarism regardless of the style in which it is commited.

This is simply a game of words imo - all places are equaly AS crappy to their people. It doesnt matter where you live, or under what type of government or religious institution you live, if the people get up to challenge the leadership in any way they all get beaten down by the police and army. end of story.

device and rule - the oldest trick in the book.

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Message 18/53 16-Mar-03 @ 07:35 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

oblivious

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The fact that people in the middle east might have severe and legitmate greviences against the west doesn't bother me. I was merely pointing out that 911 could be traced back to a hatred that can certainly be traced back to religious schooling in that country. The fact that the Saudi goverment regime could smile and shake our hands while doing business while simultaneously allowing bigotry and hatred in any form to be taught in their own schools is disturbing. While America and the west have done many crappy things, I think people in oppressed countries ought to look for fault in their own goverments before they start attacking others. If the terrorists hate america that much why don't they fly a plane into their own Saudi palaces and demand our troops leave their homeland. 911 didn't just hurt America. Inciting a global war with WMD on the table is insane no matter who starts it. Only religious fanatics could relish the starting of WWIII. I do not. Hitler, Stalin, Napolean, Caesar, Chinese emperors ect. Oppression and imperialism are not limited to any group. Ignorance is the real enemy and in my opinion religion has done more harm than good in this respect.

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Message 19/53 16-Mar-03 @ 07:57 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

influx

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"The fact that the Saudi goverment regime could smile and shake our hands while doing business while simultaneously allowing bigotry and hatred in any form to be taught in their own schools is disturbing."

hmmm. reminds me of MY school years here in the STATES

my man...while I see what youre trying to get at, youre not doing a very good job

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Message 20/53 16-Mar-03 @ 08:11 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Martin S.

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To write "Liberals" is wrong how?

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Message 21/53 16-Mar-03 @ 09:24 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

what YOUR Zip code

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" I think people in oppressed countries ought to look for fault in their own goverments before they start attacking others"

"Inciting a global war with WMD on the table is insane no matter who starts it. "

"Only religious fanatics could relish the starting of WWIII."

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Message 22/53 16-Mar-03 @ 11:46 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Zazza

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You're talking about the US and George W Bush yes?

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Message 23/53 17-Mar-03 @ 05:30 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

pict

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Ancient Greece where all those nice ideas about democracy came from was a slave based society.Plato's Republic isn't my idea of utopia.Regarding the separation of Church from State both are hierarchical systems that are designed to regulate our lives I think that hierarchy is the problem,it's about time we evolved past the idea of leaders and the power structures they belong to.

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Message 24/53 17-Mar-03 @ 05:39 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

man called clay

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...yeAH... ya talkin bout some positive anarchy now.
good ideas never go stale.

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Message 25/53 17-Mar-03 @ 08:33 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

cheddar

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money = poor (Iain M Banks)
order = death
gov = oppression

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Message 26/53 17-Mar-03 @ 08:48 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

milan

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ah... the culture

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Message 27/53 17-Mar-03 @ 01:50 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

obl

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www.aisquith.org/Muslim%20Hatred.doc

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Message 28/53 17-Mar-03 @ 02:42 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

BJT

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I read something about America using their data-spying facilities for industrial espionage against french telecommunication companies. They claimed the french were bribing people to win tenders, which doesn't surprise me in the least.

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Message 29/53 17-Mar-03 @ 03:10 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

cheddar

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So BJT is that why they set up covert spying structures, just to bring justice to other nations questionable business behavior...

So anyway I takes this client out to dinner and we were getting nicely drunk an he was telling me about whats happening with the tender and then the 'Sobriety Police' burst into the place brandishing their "Roadmap to Temperance", take us out back and begin shooting. The client was killed and then they make the survivors pledge, in the name of The Lord Tea (do not use tepid water with HIM), secrecy and dedication to the aims of peace, tolerance and brotherliness or they were going to re-educate us at the 'Togetherness through fences' re-education centre in Guantanamo Bay

etc

New improved heaven, download trial on earth

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Message 30/53 17-Mar-03 @ 03:35 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

BJT

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I just love the justification.

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Message 31/53 17-Mar-03 @ 07:07 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

errata

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just learned this

Iraq starting selling oil in Euro's instead of dollars in 1997. The world trades oil on the dollar. If Iraq sells oil on the Euro the value of the dollar declines. Venezuella is considering the same thing. Syria already started selling on the Euro... If the world shifts to the Euro as the Oil trading standard the HUGE US international debt margin (somehting like 4 trillion) dollars will be called in. You see we borrow against the value of the dollar in the oil market to pay for a LOT of what we do.

So, we go to war in Iraq and prevent one of the largest oil stockpiles from selling on the Euro or we let it happen, and more countries follow suit (it's good business to go with a stronger monetary unit with less implied debt) and the US sinks into the greatest economic depression it's ever seen!

Now, with this knowledge do you think more or less Americans would support the war?

I think it would be more... which in my mind is a direct indictment of the American people and their government!

e

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Message 32/53 17-Mar-03 @ 07:11 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

nobody

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[image file]

Solution, of course, is non-existent. Or is it?

Who really believes that humans have the potential, in their current state, to rise above all this pettiness?

First thing that needs to happen, I'd say, is people need to utterly rid themselves of any reactionary tendencies.

It's like there's two halves to anyone's mind: Reactionary, and Analytical. They may be at constant odds, one might be dominant, one might be non-existent in you. It's not an absolute, this, but it's a fairly workable way of looking at the human brain/mind/whathaveyou. So, you can simply extinguish reactive tendencies, which, if you're alert enough, you can spot in yourself when they come up, or you can succumb to the stupidity, the epic fucking fog...

Or, as I've always spouted, simply KILL ALL HUMANS. The planet, the animals, the plants, fungi, bacteria, don't need humans around. Or you can just go to the sidelines and watch as humans spiral downward, as they are now. Sure, the arts are flourishing, but don't they often, in times of widespread distress??? Seems to me they do. All the bullshit sort of acts as fuel for creativity, or whatever you want to call it.

America is blindly, boldly, leading the way toward worldwide hypocrisy. I reckon.

Everyone get some flag stickers! Everyone get a flag-patterned air freshener for your transport! Everyone buy "food" at McDonald's, Subway, Pizza Hut, Taco Bell, Burger King, Wendy's, Jack In the Box, support General Mills, Post, because ALL THESE COMPANIES CARE ABOUT YOU!!!!!

Note the obvious bouts of cynicism.

Shit, I'm all out for now. Coffee is tasting kinda overbrewed, and my film developer is ready to go. So I'm going to process this roll of film made in Hralc Kralove, in Ye Olde Czech Republic. Fuck a KODAK. How about some Black & White? Image of some fucking waste next to a stream. Hooray for rubber and plastic...

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Message 33/53 17-Mar-03 @ 07:41 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

errata

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I DO THINK that people have the capacity to rise above it. Do I think they will tap that capacity? Well, I hate to be a cynic, but...

The art's really aren't flourishing. There are lots of artists, but I would say it is not with a flourish! sigh In fact here in the states Arts are under heavy attack from all angles now!

Ah well, it is wall a reflection of my mind. Right? Damned absoluteists!

e

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Message 34/53 17-Mar-03 @ 08:18 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

nobody

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Yeah, I'll grant you that. Capacity, yes. Desire and willingess, no.

They are stuck in the fog. Yes??

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Message 35/53 17-Mar-03 @ 08:19 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Martin S.

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Great, yet another environmentalist.

The war is not JUST about oil.

Don't forget the freedom that the Iraqi people will enjoy...amazing how much the liberals are quiet over the success afghanistan. The oppressive islamic yoke is thrown off of women and they have the freedom to live a life of choice rather than a forced, male decided burden.

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Message 36/53 17-Mar-03 @ 08:23 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

cheddar

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"Don't forget the freedom that the Iraqi people will enjoy..."

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Message 37/53 17-Mar-03 @ 09:50 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Maarten

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"Don't forget the freedom that the Iraqi people will enjoy...amazing how much the liberals are quiet over the success afghanistan. The oppressive islamic yoke is thrown off of women and they have the freedom to live a life of choice rather than a forced, male decided burden."

Excuse me.. you do know that this only counts for the kabul do you? Most tribes around the country have not changed on that point..

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Message 38/53 17-Mar-03 @ 11:58 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

errata

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hmmm, yeah... huge fuggin' success in Afghanistan... we only killed 3000-3500 civilians in the 6 weeks of bombing there. We only liberated the city of Kabul, throughout the rest of Afghanistan life hasn't gotten any better... In fact in many provinces it has gotten worse.

And now the population of Kabul must live in constant fear of street gun battles, and car bombings.

Funny how people who blindly support death and destruction so often site illusory positives in their quest to dominate and destroy others.

Again!::: The US Military expects around 100,000 civilian deaths in Iraq! Roughly 60% of the Iraqi population is under the age of 16!!! SO, that's 50,000 children you heartless, unthinking As+hole.

AMERICA WILL KILL 50,000 CHILDREN BY THE END OF SPRING! (by it's own estimates, which are likely to be low.) If you don't care about that, just fuggin' say so!

e

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Message 39/53 18-Mar-03 @ 12:34 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

influx

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Martin S for president!

oh wait. Dubya

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Message 40/53 18-Mar-03 @ 02:21 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Pongoid

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well, before you get all kinds of gung-ho about that one...we kill the same amount of people here EVERY YEAR WITH ALCOHOL...DO NOT PAY ATTENTION TO THE MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!!

I'm not saying that this shit in the middle east is cool at all, just that it's not the only thing folks need to be paying attention to or distracted by at the moment.

Ape

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Message 41/53 18-Mar-03 @ 02:53 AM Edit: 18-Mar-03 | 02:54 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

nobody

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Environmentalist? Where? I didn't notice one.

Except that, I'd rather have the planet survive and all humans DEAD. DEAD DEAD, ALL DEAD.

The idea that human life is somehow intrinsically valuable and worth preserving is something of a myth, don't you think? Well, I'm asking Pongoid anyway. And perhaps Maarten. I think I remember the Errata name as well, from years ago.

Aw fuck it. I've got some potatoes roasting. Or is it potatos? Looks right with the e, but I'm not good at grammar, written word rules, etc.

KILL-ALL-HUMANS

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Message 42/53 18-Mar-03 @ 03:10 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

psylichon

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if humans=[beings believing themselves to be more important than the universal balance],

then, yah. kill em. twice.

psy

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Message 43/53 18-Mar-03 @ 03:11 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

psylichon

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I mean
kill them

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Message 44/53 18-Mar-03 @ 05:29 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

man called clay

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martin s...you'd better go to ol king george to get your brownie skirt button.....cause ya ain';t gettin nun here budweiser.

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Message 45/53 18-Mar-03 @ 05:35 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

man called clay

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it's kinda like this....it's okay for us to kill our own...but damns if ya comin here to kill my leader.
everyone feels the same on this one.
we'll not be a hero to the iraqis people...it's just natural....forget about it.

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Message 46/53 18-Mar-03 @ 09:20 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

errata

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Totaly agree Pongoid... but this one's in our face right now, so it's getting the words. Like it PERSONIFIES all the BS in one easy to use disposable container, ya know?

Nobody, no one here said humans are more important than anything else. But in our limited perspective some folks have to start with the compassion somewhere, and since we are human.. it's easyest to identify with those. That said, I do somehow see the killing opf children as something far "worse" (in a relative way, as I've said). And 50,000 children dead before the end of Spring time does indeed get my attention!

e

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Message 47/53 18-Mar-03 @ 11:36 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

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i wonder myself wether people are so keen for this war cos they think it'll be a walkover like last time (prolly will be this time we all expect don't we, frankly?)... but if sadam retaliates with some serious missile based firepower (like, "I've nothing left to loose" type thing) I wonder how ing gung-ho people will be if Allied body bags start to appear on TV in any numbers?

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Message 48/53 18-Mar-03 @ 11:40 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Zazza

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I dont think they are using body bags this time..

Just incinerating the bodies..

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Message 49/53 18-Mar-03 @ 11:48 AM - RE: So, there's no proof?

cheddar

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media friendly fire

trr ch

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Message 50/53 18-Mar-03 @ 04:08 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Winston

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WAR IS PEACE

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

the expectation that language make sense internally and refer to the external world in an organized way has evaporated.

or maybe there is no Iraq, and it is only our selves which are supposed to bend.

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Message 51/53 18-Mar-03 @ 06:15 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Blista

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Have no doubt, the Iraqi soldiers would rather surrender than fight.

Should that lunitic use these pathetic means of desperation, the US is prepared.

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Message 52/53 18-Mar-03 @ 06:16 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

Blista

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Oh, yeah...so, if Saddam doesn't have these weapons, how can he use them?

LOL, he fools himself (and france) more than anyone else.

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Message 53/53 18-Mar-03 @ 06:25 PM - RE: So, there's no proof?

errata

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When Napoleon invaded Spain, everyone in Europe said it's a wash! The Spanish army was demoralized, the French was the strongest on Earth.

The Spanish army rolled over all right, but the population refused to submit to a foreign power. You see, even the the Spanish people were unhappy with the Monarchy, and the military was not dedicated to nationalism, the PEOPLE refused the power of the French because they were FOREIGN INVADERS!

The result was years of violent bloodshed on both sides. Every time the Spanish people killed French soldiers the French wouls slaughter a bunch of Spaniards. UGLY. Not at all what ANYONE expected, and the causes for Napoleon's invasion of Spain closely parallel the "stated" purpose of our war in Iraq... and the Spaniards of 100 years ago, in many ways mirror the Iraqi's of today!

Even in the best of circumstances this won't be pretty, it will be a terrible and COMPLETELY unreasonable violent and aggressive act! But it could turn out to be MUCH WORSE!

e

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