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Subject: want to program?
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Original Message 1/45 26-Mar-03 @ 05:32 PM - want to program?
i don't believe it codes .dlls (for vsti) directly but it handles a lot of other things, ie. com ports. i wouldn't expect the performance of c++ but if you've ever wanted to build your own midi sequencer, audio arranger and are as abhorrent of finance as i, here you go.
already written my own 'wordpad' app after about 5 hours! successfully opened, created, edited files!
Message 4/45 26-Mar-03 @ 08:50 PM - RE: want to program?
Message 6/45 26-Mar-03 @ 11:17 PM - RE: want to program?
Message 7/45 26-Mar-03 @ 11:58 PM - RE: want to program?
Message 8/45 28-Mar-03 @ 12:56 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 10/45 28-Mar-03 @ 08:02 AM Edit: 28-Mar-03 | 09:57 AM - RE: want to program?
The Brainfuck programming language consists of eight commands, each of which is represented as a single character.
> Increment the pointer.
< Decrement the pointer.
+ Increment the byte at the pointer.
- Decrement the byte at the pointer.
. Output the byte at the pointer.
, Input a byte and store it in the byte at the
pointer.
[ Jump past the matching ] if the byte at the pointer is zero.
] Jump to the matching [.
Message 11/45 28-Mar-03 @ 06:59 PM - RE: want to program?
if you're on linux, fire up gcc.
i dunno.. i love c/c++ (psy metnioned pascal.. yeah, that was the bomb too, but i've forgotten most of that though occassionally the := slipts through ;))...
anyway.. i'm waiting for swan to come by.. he mentioned darkbasic (? haven't taken a look yet)
-j
Message 12/45 28-Mar-03 @ 07:22 PM - RE: want to program?
borland also used to give away an older version of turbo C++ or the big borland C++.... should still be on their website... i think it was 5.0...
Message 13/45 28-Mar-03 @ 08:03 PM - RE: want to program?
As for Basic/VB and Pascal/Delphi, if I ever hear of those languages again I'll shoot someone!
Regards.
Steve.
Message 14/45 28-Mar-03 @ 08:28 PM - RE: want to program?
i too have a fondness for "toy" languages, such as the new wave of BASIC-based langs (darcbasic/realbasic/etc.).. but at the same time, there's a certain degree of limitation.
it's great that a language lets you get programing quick+easy, but when you have to design your app to get around the limitations of the language.. it's almost more work than just learning c++. (i speak from intensely frustrating personal experience.)
rapid-q looks decent.. (um.. why is it running in the java VM though?!). i suppose it's just a clever BASIC-style wrapper around a few core parts of java?! (i.e a simple cut-down version of java..) um.. it might just be easier to learn "basic" java or even javascript.
recently i had to actually code in BASIC (i.e no function calls, etc. etc.) and it really made me realise how much i love modern languages.
i MUST recommend ActionScript ("scripting" lang of flash.. almost identical to javascript); it's probably _the_ slowest language, but.. it's sooooooo easy to use. i realise it involves having $$$ to buy flash... but, it's an extremely small, friendly-to-use lang. dynamic EVERYTHING. (the tradeoff is, it can check very little beyond syntax errors at "compile"-time)
anyway, let me just correct xoxox: if you want to learn programming, try AS. it's VERY simple; much prettier/nicer/cleaner/etc. than BASIC-style stuff. and you'll learn a bit of OOP too, instead of all that nasty SUB/FUNC "bollocks". (and the built-in graphics and sound APIs are, while basic, very simple to use. AAAND.. who doesn't love anti-aliased gfx?)
having said that, it's nowhere near as poweful, in terms of speed and capabilities (i.e no directX, etc.). BUT: if i had to learn programming in BASIC, i would kill myself. soooo ugly! and.. isn't it statically typed? etc.. kind of "unfriendly". not the kind of stuff "newbies" want to worry about...
anyway xoxox.. "rapid q. best running interactive web media i've ever used.".. um.. what about flash?!
raigan
p.s - also -- java and c++ are free, aren't they?! there are TONS of online books and tutorials.. and good compilers... etc.
p.p.s - AS is also cross-platform... haha!
p.p.p.s - sadly, it's also quasi-proprietary.. (the language spec/etc. are free/open, so technically someone could write a free AS compiler.. and a few people have, but not a fully-functional one like the embeded-in-flash one.. more like for use as a UI scripting tool for playstation games/etc..)
p.p.p.p.s - sorry about this deranged post...
Message 15/45 28-Mar-03 @ 10:14 PM - RE: want to program?
how 'bout vb if you don't want to learn c? then you get access to dx and it's reaaallly easy now.
-j
Message 16/45 28-Mar-03 @ 10:34 PM - RE: want to program?
that's the thing.. i started with borland's free c++ (fclt) AND bought a book, but it didn't have information on compile codes i was picking up bits of info from various places on the net.. i went thru some gnu sites but generally in reference to fclt, i felt like i didn't have a chance of actually putting anything together because i was finding a reference to one compile code in one place that sounded like i should be using it, but wasn't in my text. i guess it's all there for gnu then.
this was pretty bad as well.. there's several ways to put a bitmap on your form, and i had to go through 4 different databases before i could write a script that did what i wanted that worked despite what i took as a complete documentation. it's diaspora.. i don't like haivng to pester people "i know you write programming languages all day long, do you mind taking a second to tell me how to put a flippinmg box on my screen?" then you have to be all "thank you thank you"
so basically right now i'm kidding myself and saying "when i can buy an official c++ package, there will be sufficient documentation and examples.." even tho i know i'll probably have to write at least 15 pleading emails, go thru 30 sites et c. and pay several thousand dollars for the .dlls that make it work after you buy it, if i know the commercial market..
i figured this bastard out, i've had enough of sniffing chocolate starfishes trying to discern why the hell someone wouldn't just write one plain, simple, effective graphics call.. this works now.. i'll have some tutorials up soon since no one else realises that if you want to know how to put a box on the screen you don't want to pick apart some way-outta-your-way proprietary directx script to do it.
i think c++ is just an excuse to see who can come up with the longest variable/function names. damn, it might be antidisestablishmentarianismcount but you can just call it x, peeps! just a little tip from a basic person.
Message 17/45 28-Mar-03 @ 11:54 PM - RE: want to program?
Regards.
Steve.
Message 18/45 29-Mar-03 @ 05:30 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 20/45 29-Mar-03 @ 07:43 AM - RE: want to program?
Free version: http://www.trolltech.com/download/qt/noncomm.html
Gives you gui designer etc.. then you just fill in the specific code in c++..
Id suggest gnu c++, free etc.. run cygwin on windows http://www.cygwin.com/setup.exe
And there's no shortage of help/examples on the web..
Message 21/45 29-Mar-03 @ 08:42 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 22/45 29-Mar-03 @ 01:32 PM - RE: want to program?
MS, you gotta love 'em
Message 23/45 01-Apr-03 @ 10:48 PM - RE: want to program?
I'd suggest Java if you want to learn a real-deal language that might actually be useful to you later on. There's lots of good suggestions for "learner" languages that have been mentioned above, I'd add Eiffel, but they're useless in the real world.
The JDK is free from Sun and includes a compiler. Java also has one of the most active online communities around, so lots of people can help you out.
-Craig
Message 24/45 01-Apr-03 @ 11:05 PM - RE: want to program?
i really don't know about java; the thing is, for a newbie, it seems a bit "heavyweight"; not much different from c++ (i.e both langs are equally complex).
like.. it's going to be hard to see the fundamental concepts involved in programming. again.. i REALLY must stress how clean and simple actionscript is. yes, it's not really much of a language, but it is DEFINITELY the best "learn the concepts" language i've used.
like.. if i show non-coder friends some source, they usually understand most of what's going on. which i doubt could be said for java.
also, there are like 3-4 different openGL-for-java libs, and NONE of them are any good!
but i definitely agree that it would be a good choice for learning how to "really" program once you get the basics.
aaaanyway..
raigan
Message 25/45 02-Apr-03 @ 10:45 PM - RE: want to program?
i've just created an app for batch processing renaming duties.. you know, when you have a sample library with some stupid naming designation or a load of mp3s with !!s or Layer3 in their name, you run them through this and get them all tidy.. or when your prog only uses so many characters of the name.. et c.
i've looked for something like this a few times before (not for a while tho :p) but now the bastard's built. have to put in a few different name formatting options and perhaps add a script function ie. to automatically deal with !!s scenario or ?? suggestions?
freeware 1 motherfuckers 0
Message 26/45 03-Apr-03 @ 07:29 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 27/45 04-Apr-03 @ 12:16 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 28/45 04-Apr-03 @ 04:29 PM - RE: want to program?
i'll check that thing out though, for sure.. once i manage to find some time....
raigan
Message 29/45 07-Apr-03 @ 04:52 PM - RE: want to program?
See, the thing is learning how to program PROPERLY is ery different from learning how to program. Sure you can hang yourself in Java You can hang yourself in anything!
-Craig
Message 30/45 07-Apr-03 @ 05:17 PM - RE: want to program?
Message 31/45 07-Apr-03 @ 08:34 PM - RE: want to program?
Steve.
Message 32/45 08-Apr-03 @ 07:10 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 34/45 08-Apr-03 @ 06:03 PM - RE: want to program?
-Craig
Message 35/45 08-Apr-03 @ 07:03 PM Edit: 08-Apr-03 | 07:04 PM - RE: want to program?
That I agree with.
Accessible beauty? I don't happen to think so.
I'm sure you do have your uses for it, Craig, and I'm glad you don't think I'm saying anything against you - but I never figured you as the misinterpreting type.. So..
The thing that really pisses me off about Flash animation is how carried away people get with it, and how coooooooool they think it is to bombard you with this.. stuff.. eh. Now appearing on your screen whether you like it or not! "Slick" ads for bullshit movies like Bulletproof Monk! Eh. I just wanted to look up an actor on imdb.com, not be slapped with the lastest money-making scheme of some idiots.. blablabla..
Hi Craig.
Message 36/45 08-Apr-03 @ 08:18 PM - RE: want to program?
well.. i agree, but -- there's a big difference between flash animation, and AS. it's kind of like "virus presets" vs. "virus synth engine". you know?
what i wanted to say was:
"These are scripting languages and not full blown programming languages"
well.. yes, it's javascript. but.. it supports inheritance, encapsulation, etc.. what makes it not "full blown"? the fact that "script" is part of it's name?
i suppose it's really semantics -- i don't know what the difference between a scripting language and a real language is. but...
what bad habits?! i disagree with the "it doens't apply to other langs" thing -- all it does is abstract much of the machine-dependant stuff, like data types/etc.
i just don't think knowing about the difference between chars/strings/floats/longs/etc. is integral to programming. it's just language-specific syntax.
any examples of bad habits?
raigan
Message 37/45 08-Apr-03 @ 08:19 PM - RE: want to program?
Message 38/45 09-Apr-03 @ 02:12 PM - RE: want to program?
As far as bad habits, the idea of stashing code in multiple layers or in different frames is whack. Of course this is less of an issue if you're following the best practices, but the best languages for learning to program FORCE you into the best practices by design of the language.. That's why they often teach things like Eiffel and Modula-2 in universitites. These languages are designed so that the way to accomplish something is laid out along the best practices for doing so in a more open language.
I don't know.. A lot of the things I have to bitch about in Flash I'd bitch about with any 4GL, like Powerbuilder or Visual FoxPro, or VB or whatever.. I don't think they make good learning tools. Put it this way, someone who knows C++ can easily pick up something like FoxPro. Someone who knows FoxPro isn't going to have a prayer at C++, they have a lot more learning to do.
These are just my opinions remember I'm biased because I came through the standard university computer science program, and compared to my peers who didn't have the foundations I had, I write cleaner, faster, more maintainable code. I also pick up new languages more easily, and understand new concepts more easily than they do.
-Craig
Hi Nobody!
-Craig
Message 39/45 09-Apr-03 @ 06:24 PM - RE: want to program?
i'm in 4th-year compsci (minor).. and it appears i've had a somewhat different experience ;)
i definitely agree with "they have a lot more learning to do." but.. i really don't think this is a bad thing.
it's mostly my experience with non-coding friends: looking at AS source, they can get the gist of what's what. this lets them gradually understand the basics in a more abstract setting. i.e they understand what a variable is.
they DON'T need to understand the 132586 niggling details about data types. when they move to c++, they _will_ need to learn this, but they'll probably find it easier to expand their knowledge of variables than to have to swallow both the abstract idea of what a variable IS, and million implementation-specific things about how variables work in c++, simultaneously.
i suppose my argument is, AS is better to learn in because it allows you to learn in small increments, from the very abstract to the very specific. in c++, both abstract concept and implementation are both sort of lumped together, and that makes it harder for people to grasp the specifics as simple implementations of a more eneral, abstract concept. like, it's harder to seperate the ideal thing from the way c++ handles the thing. but.. to each his own i suppose.
however, i think that AS is the future in terms of programming, because to be honest, i don't CARE about how the machine is storing my numbers, and i shouldn't HAVE to care -- eventually (hopefully), machines will be too complex for us to be able to really map our though-concepts onto physical processes in a meaningful way.
20 years ago, human-written asm ruled over compilers. now, most of the time the compiler wins, because CPU architecture is soooooo much more complex now -- we can no longer really fit all of the processes involved into our minds at the same time. but.. well, whatever. blahblahblah..
to me, the important part of programming is the abstract "devellop an algorithm to solve a problem" part, and actually expressing the algo in terms a computer can understand is sort of the boring, crappy, hopefully-soon-fully-automated task. [having said that, one course i'm taking right now is numerical methods, so i definitely see how sometimes, the implementation details need to influence the algo. but.. i don't agree that this is how things SHOULD be.]
aaaaaaaaanyway..
i know exactly what you mean about frame crap -- i HATED that shit. and then flashMX arrived, and guess what? now things work the way they should -- you can write an entire program all in a single text file, without doing anything flash-specific (i.e nomucking w/ movie clips, _all_ you need is a text file). woo!
also, you don't need flash to write in AS, there are a few 3rd party apps which will generate bytecode from txt. [and, just in case you miss c, you can hack the byte-code (as close as you get to assembly) with flasm.]
since the specs for AS are open, a lot of people have develloped various open tools..
aaanyway.. maybe it's simply due to lazyness on my part, but.. i prefer writing in AS to java/c++ simply because, most of the time i don't CARE about writing a "real" program, i care about the algos. like: does my solution work?
once i get a stable stack of boxes in my *!%$*% physics sim, THEN i'll worry about porting it to a real lang. until then, i want to be able to know that the instability is due to a problem with my approach/solution, and not simply a problem with my description of my solution.
okay, end of rant.
raigan
Message 40/45 10-Apr-03 @ 02:22 PM - RE: want to program?
A lot of this doesn't become apparent until you graduate, get a real job, and inheirit maintenance duties to a 5 year old program, and nobody has any idea how it works. With C++, you could look at the parameters to the function you're working on and see what's coming in, what type it is (which often gives you a clue to what it's use will be). If the variables aren't carefully named and the code carefully commented (hahaha!! Good fucking luck!), then you're screwed and you'll waste hours going through the code trying to figure out exactly what goes into the variable "v1_c" and what it's purpose is.
4GLs and script-based languages are great tools, and they're useful - much of my professional life has been spent in 4GL tools (Cold Fusion, Visual FoxPro).. If you ever have to do database programming though, like Oracle stored procedures, you're going to have a steep learning curve. If you were trained in Modula-2 or C, or preferably ADA (the syntax is very similar), then you're going to have a much easier time of it. You can also program the DB in Java now..
But anyways, back to the point... What you cite as an advantage is something I see as a bad habit, because it results in code that's more difficult to maintain. You really need to pay attention to everything your professors tell you where your gut reaction is "That's stupid, this way is easier"... It's easier when it's one guy writing a 200 line program that he's going to submit for a project and never see again.. But when you're part of a 4 person team collaborating on a million-line program that's going to be in use for 5-10 years, then it's a whole different ball game.
It's not that you can't learn using ActionScript (although I'd recommend Javascript over ActionScrit for previously mentioned reasons).. And it's going to depend on what you intend to do with that knowlege. Xoxos probably just wants to learn how to program so he can build various widgets for himself and basically just learn for learning's sake, but if you intend to apply that knowlege in the business world it's going to get you into habits that wind up producing inferior code.
My 2 cents anyways...
-Craig
Message 41/45 10-Apr-03 @ 05:50 PM - RE: want to program?
the main difference between AS and other langs is that you the programmer are forced to have more discipline (i.e there's no formal/automatic mechanism present in the language for "making" a process private or public. however, if you simply treat/use it as private/public, there's no difference)...
sadly, i learnt the "you can ace all your assignments but still know nothing abour real programming" thing in 2nd year. that really sucked. to be honest, i'm hoping to never have to face "real" programming, by getting into game coding -- smaller teams, and WAY looser practices.
and.. i ALWAYS comment and label things. i HAVE to, because (due to AS), flash can't really tell me anything about anything -- i need to tell my(future)self.
aaaanyway, i have no doubt that you know what you're talking about, but.. i say ;P to the business world. it's gross!! i want some damn creativity with my coding! otherwise i'm just another of the legion of IT monkeys.
raigan
Message 42/45 10-Apr-03 @ 06:25 PM - RE: want to program?
-Craig
PS - the real world pays better
Message 43/45 11-Apr-03 @ 04:37 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 44/45 11-Apr-03 @ 10:25 AM Edit: 11-Apr-03 | 10:27 AM - RE: want to program?
Message 45/45 11-Apr-03 @ 02:11 PM - RE: want to program?
-Craig
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