Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

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Subject: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

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Original Message 1/35 13-Jun-03 @ 08:36 AM Edit: 13-Jun-03 | 09:30 AM - Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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Anyone who's been here awhile knows my views on people bragging about using warez and copies or looking for such on K's site but, if he's not averse to an academic discussion on the matter I'd like to pose something of a question.

Some time ago a friend of mine mentioned that his father, a very successful business man, would "acquire" software and use it over a period of months, sometimes up to a year, to determine if it was stable and truly useful to him in his business. After a period of time he would make a decision and either move on to evaluate another piece of software or call the software company and request a license and documentation. Usually he would get some sort of a discount since he didn't need a packaged product. Also, he was never challenged regarding his somewhat unusual request. Some of the things my friend attributed to his father's financial success was honesty, integrity and an unwillingness to invest money in anything that didn't work or contribute to his business.

Considering how much software for professional use costs I have a hard time being critical of this approach. In addition, the current trend of releasing software that hasn't been thoroughly beta tested has softened my attitude (I'm reminded of my difficulties when Cubase VST32 was released). The key, obviously, is in the purchase of software that one intends on keeping after a thorough evaluation. If such purchases are not made then the software determined to be truly useful will go away and the user may be forced to turn to an inferior product, all becuase of not paying up after evaluation. The flip side is that software companies that choose to foist beta testing onto paying customers would be forced to reevaluate such practice or go out of business. So, what say the good folk of DT?

I know this may sound cheesy but I'd rather this thread not continue until K gives it his blessing (hopefully he'll see it) as an academic discussion especially considering his desire to sell product through DT. And please don't get on me about even bringing the subject up if I have doubts regarding its propriety. I bring it up because I respect the differing opinions here and believe it to be especially relevent considering the proliferation of file sharing and the aforementioned trend in the software industry. If K deems it inappropriate I would hope he simply deletes the post. Thanks.

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Message 2/35 13-Jun-03 @ 11:12 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

cheddar

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And then you have to cos you don't have the cash to buy.

And then the cost is pretty fixed across the world, possibly even cheaper in the US but does this mirror incomes, no, thats a barrier to entry.

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Message 3/35 13-Jun-03 @ 12:47 PM Edit: 13-Jun-03 | 12:59 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

dARKSTATe

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Its a tricky one that for sure.. Its an argument that's raged on and on and on....

To follow some of Micks points though; what other products would one be expected to pay for, with the justified expectation of receiving a fully working/fully functional product, only to find that it had not in all truth been quality control tested to the point where it can be deemed as fully fit for use? There aren't many that's for sure (if any at all)

This arguement alone doesn't advocate the use of piracy by a long shot, but clearly there are many things wrong with the model/attitudes in place within the software industry that has allowed this situation to worsen. Worsen to the level that some people DO genuinely feel justified in "evaluating" the software by any means necessary before chosing to make a purchase.. In some cases there's shareware, or demo copies but that doesn't really come close to covering it.

To be honest, I've gone off topic from Mick's original post to comment on the state of the industry, but what's also as important as talking about piracy, is that we should be asking ourselves about the quality of the software we ARE buying... Its all well and good eulogising about how good Logic, Sonar and SX are.. its another when those tools do NOT offer all of the promised functionality straight out of the box.. More often than not, the user pays for the developers/publishers testing costs, costs which should have been factored into the original project estimate and have since been swept aside..

Developing patches to fix the *occasional* bug or improve functionality is one thing. Developing patches the rectify major problems or flaws in the original design spec and developement is something else entirely..

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Message 4/35 13-Jun-03 @ 02:53 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

99devils

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I program computers for a living, so I'm definately on the anti-warez side of the fence. But I do exactly what Mick described, and I do it quite often. I don't think there's a problem with that in a perfect world, because you'd either pay or stop using the product.

The problem is that people continue to use the product but don't pay.

-Craig

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Message 5/35 13-Jun-03 @ 03:32 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Yonce N Mild

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It depends on how you view right and wrong. Is it black and white or only shades of gray? technically using warez at all is stealing. I know people say you wouldn't buy a car without test driving it first, but you don't steal a car and drive it around for 6 months to a year to "thoroughly" test it before rolling into the dealership and saying I'll take it !! It is also difficult to truely evaluate a cracked version of software because you don't know if the bugs are real or just because it's cracked. I "evaluated" sonar 1.0 for about a year it would lock up occasionally and i got these annoying audio dropouts, since it was a cracked version I blamed the dropouts on that. Once I finally ordered Sonar 2.0 I found out that the dropouts were actually a legitimate bug in the software. some "evaluation" huh

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Message 6/35 13-Jun-03 @ 05:45 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Influx

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I was under the impression that cracks dont usually have "bugs" as the code isnt altered except the protection scheme?

I was gonna wait til Kilo approved the thread, as mick suggested

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Message 7/35 13-Jun-03 @ 05:50 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

psylichon

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Do you honestly seeing k having a problem with us talking about this? nobody's promoting warez here, just questioning the standard model. Isn't that what we do here?

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Message 8/35 13-Jun-03 @ 06:53 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

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sounds like reasonable behaviour to me... you know for example from using a 'copy' of photoshop that it's stable as can be.

As an example of this theory, a mate of mine has a crack of SX he's evaluating (he owns legal boxed VST-5)... it's stable, no 'Poofs' - so i'd be more inclined to pay steinberg a fee and use a copy of that from hiim, than go out and buy it in a box & possibly get problems.

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Message 9/35 13-Jun-03 @ 07:03 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Yonce N Mild

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the glitches from cracked software don't come from the progran itself but from the modifications that the crack makes to the system information or the registry in order to bypass the softwares security. I know using a cracked version of fm7 absolutly fucked my system up it took me two days to clean up just to make my pc useable again. then it took a complete os reinstall before all the problems went away.

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Message 10/35 13-Jun-03 @ 07:25 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

psylichon

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Yonce, I doubt it was the crack's fault... probably seemingly related but not. Because we prolly used the same crack and I had no problems with it

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Message 11/35 13-Jun-03 @ 07:37 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Yonce N Mild

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I don't know psy i was running fine then I installed fm7 used it in a track in sonar it worked fine until I closed sonar and shut the computer down. next time I opened that track as soon as i tried to modify anything I woud get a bluescreen i also had problems outside of sonar with random crashes and I didn't have the problem in sonar on tracks without the fm7. Once I uninstalled fm7 the problem went away but the track i was working on was permanatly corrupted. I reinstalled fm7 just to check and i started having the same problem. The problems I experienced after the uninstall were probably caused by me fucking around trying to fix the problem before I realised what it was. But I was experiencing a very specific problem that only happened when I was using fm7. it was an Oxygen crack by the way.

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Message 12/35 13-Jun-03 @ 08:04 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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K, this is the second time I've heard about the SX crack being more stable than the official version. THAT is a perfect illustration of what dARKSTATe expounded on. My initial experience with VST32 was less than inspiring then to cap it all they develope SX and seemingly cease development on VST. "That shit ain't right, that shit is WRONG!" (Chris Rock, from Head of State)

IQS is doing something interesting in that they are releasing their SAW software for $200.00 and accepting payments over time (total price is $2500.00) after filling out a simple handshake agreement form. I assume that if you find the software not to your liking you can cease payments. Its not an ideal situation by any means however it does seem to indicate a change in attitude that could inspire otheres to seek out more workable solutions.

I've wanted to purchase editing software for some time but the cost of testing full unrestricted versions of what's available would be well over a thousand bucks. That's way to much tin on the floor for evaluation purposes. So, it would seem the only thing to do would be to try the various cracks then support the company that makes the best software. Ultimatly, in the current climate it is considered stolen software until its paid for, however, when a piece of kludgy software is released whose zoomin' who?

dARKSTATe really hit the nail because the entire software industry is taking advantage of customer faith in advertising. That brings me to another matter, that of the US government's obligation to monitor truth in advertising abuses. Not that we should trust the government any more than advertisers these days by failing to do what we can to protect ourselves, with warez the the only seemingly viable means of doing that, but third parties have been charged with that duty for some time.

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Message 13/35 13-Jun-03 @ 08:26 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Influx

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its really fuckin sad when folks like steinberg release such a flawed program as SX

mindyou, Ive been able to do everything I needed, knock on wood, with no problems whatsoever, so Im LUCKY...but there are quite a few people with major problems

I think SW companies should release fully functional demo versions with timeouts after say 30 days or something?

I dunno...no matter what we say theyre gonna just keep on keepin on I think

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Message 14/35 13-Jun-03 @ 11:56 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

spinback

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the cracked Atari st cubase v3 was aparently much more stable than than the original. Thats what i started on, if i hadn't been able to use the cheapo crack id never have gotten into this in the first place and as such ended up giving steinberg and other companys money (cubase VST score, reason, Soundforge etc...) - so in a perverse way their bank balance benefited from my use of this crack way back........

using a 5 squid cd full of warez to make music is wrong imho (even more so if you make money from it), which is why i dont look forward to the current trend of diminishing hardware.

SpinbacK

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Message 15/35 14-Jun-03 @ 09:41 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

cheddar

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wait all will become clear.

we cannot own anything (privatise the air)

software minutes, downloaded and charged accordingly

web services only 0,005c/min pages filled with them. Do not worry about software companies the time is coming

what do you want to do

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Message 16/35 14-Jun-03 @ 06:03 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

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well FM7 requires a patch file to be sent from NI doncha know.

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Message 17/35 18-Jun-03 @ 01:43 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

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You can't compare evaluating software for 6 months with driving a car around for six months. There are few similarities between owned and copywrighted information, like sofware, and physical goods; most stealing and ownership analogies are flawed.

As far as bugs in cracked versions... only messing with the copy protection is how it works in theory. Sometimes the software just doesn't work as well after its been adulterated. I have seen it work the opposite way too.

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Message 18/35 18-Jun-03 @ 03:17 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

influx

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heh. like WAVES?

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Message 19/35 18-Jun-03 @ 06:02 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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Did Waves become more stable after being cracked??? Considering how much their stuff costs that's pretty f*%&ing sad.

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Message 20/35 18-Jun-03 @ 08:22 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

pict

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Mick check this article out for an opinion of waves copy protection http://www.prorec.com/prorec/articles.nsf/files/4F0B51C39C17DA6386256B7F0077FBA6

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Message 21/35 21-Jun-03 @ 03:17 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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Pict, seems like a long time since I've seen your handle. I read the article. That's a pretty harsh indictment. What do you do, pay for the license and use the more stable crack? That's a sad irony. Or would that be a paradox???

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Message 22/35 21-Jun-03 @ 03:26 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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Oh, K, I was reading the posts at the Steinberg site and all I seemed to read about were "poofs". I've been using Cubase for ten years now but this really makes me want to migrate if it comes time to upgrade.

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Message 23/35 21-Jun-03 @ 04:32 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

influx

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Ive never had a poof, mick

the waves thing..heh

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Message 24/35 21-Jun-03 @ 04:46 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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Copy "never had a poof".

Perhaps I should have said, "Naive guy gone bad."

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Message 25/35 23-Jun-03 @ 11:53 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

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exactly - look at all the users WITH the dreaded SX 'poof' bug, (apparently it even was 'poofing' at the trade show repeatedly according to the cubase forum discussion)... so if I had to buy SX, I'd pay up, and keep the box on the shelf and
use the stable copy which I KNEW 100% worked.

Factualy, alot of people do that anyways, they have the box sitting on the shelf un-used cos they dont like to run a dongle. same with Logic users too & definately the same with waves users as referred to above as a famous example.

Why would I bother f*cking about HOPING that a legal 'copy', (which is all they are after all, just 'copies'), would work, when I know that so-called illegal copy works for sure??

Now therefore, sure, you give Steiny the cash, and what you get is... nothing back, except knowing you contributed to the writers/company... but what they offer isnt much use outside of the core programme from which someone anonymous can hack a stable version which needs no dongle, which paid-up users can then run...Their support is worth jack shite, and updates are useless as they mostly are just bugged again all over, and round you go.

If you follow 'the law', lets say you build a new PC, and setup SX/cubase on that.... illegal! - you cannot do multiple installs of the s/w according to your licence as far as I know.

The problem with this whole industry is they can't figure out a way to retail their goods properly to stop crack users. When the subject comes up on forums, it always descends into a mire of intellectualising about the 'rights & wrongs' of cracked s/w, and no-one ever has a solution.

I myself beleive the s/w now is so expensive compared to the hardware you are running it on, it has totaly discounted all advantages of the PC industry... if the hardware corps can survive with ever decreasing profits, why not the s/w?...

So now your basic main sequencer app might cost the same as the hardware parts for your PC, then add some synth & sampler and drum s/w, and editor mastering s/w and the cost has doubled more that the actual PC itself. Perhaps psychologicaly this dissuades people from paying?

i dunno... but there has to be a better way than expecting that everyone can and will stump up a grand or more for the s/w they need all in one go.

I myself advocate ownership 'clubs' which users can join and pay regular installments, topping up their s/w list as and when they need stuff. But that'd mean revamping the sales end for music s/w and licencing independant pc music s/w techs as sort of 'service-agents' etc and not relying 100% on traditional shops.

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Message 26/35 26-Jun-03 @ 11:57 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

teehee

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http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~shane/stasj/div_bilder/49.html

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Message 27/35 27-Jun-03 @ 07:42 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Garuna

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I advocate buying $2 software suites.

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Message 28/35 27-Jun-03 @ 03:38 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

dubmunkey

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it aint just software programmers that released unfinshed products- Akai certainly spring to mind....

Greg

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Message 29/35 27-Jun-03 @ 04:33 PM Edit: 29-Jun-03 | 11:47 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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That's a good point, I've read more than one review about a piece of hardware that was missing some advertised feature or has a major defect. The Yamaha Loop Factory modules come to mind. Even in hardware products, its seems to end up being the softare. WTF is it about software that creates such slack?

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Message 30/35 27-Jun-03 @ 06:09 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Influx

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damn. heavy shit!

dunno...sometimes I think that the machines we create truly are out of control..like...we're not sophisticated enough to REALLY do them correctly...same with SW...its like...we wandered into this room fantasia like and just started swingin the wand

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Message 31/35 27-Jun-03 @ 10:48 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

RagnarOk

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Part of the problem is that these days we want software with LOT of functions. Just simply doing a task isn't enough anymore. Not that you can blame anybody for wanting flexible music software anyways

Point is, for this complexity, you've go to hire a lot of people. As software evolves and gets more and more complicated, you'll need more and more people to make it, test it, make possible for others to work together, etc. And the bigger your team is, the bigger the chance for having incompetent/unmotivated staff being involved. And while complex software needs a lot of hands to make, even one of them can fuck it up completely.

Thre are only a very few exceptions, when software does what it should do, no more, no less, and you can actually stop worrying about saving every 5 minutes. Just have a look at Reason. Closed architecture, limited number of modules, and surprisingly, the concept works. As soon as your SW must work together with 3rd party plugins, etc, you'll face the endless problems of bably implemented/specified interfaces.

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Message 32/35 27-Jun-03 @ 10:54 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

RagnarOk

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No, I'm not saying we should't want plugins, not at all

But makers ans users of music SW WILL have problems, until they realise that there are too many plugin formats, and that forces plugin vendors to have different versions of their plugz to remain competetive (which often means converters, and wrappers), and effort that could've been spent on improving quality.

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Message 33/35 29-Jun-03 @ 12:08 PM Edit: 30-Jun-03 | 12:52 AM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

Mick

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Simple single function software does seem to end up being more stable. I would actually support a company, like Steinberg or Twelve Tone Systems, to begin releasing their software in single function modules designed by teams who would each focus on a specific one, ie., a MIDI seqencing module, an audio sequencing module, a rack module (to handle processors only), an instrument module, (for softsynths & samplers only), etc. Maybe music software would end up being more reliable.

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Message 34/35 29-Jun-03 @ 12:24 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

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i dont think there's any excuse apart from finances... s/w costs alot for what people percieve as the better-end of the market.

BUT, ORION & FRUITY-LOOPS both come with lots of gear included and work great.

I still maintain the problem is the way it is retailed.

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Message 35/35 30-Jun-03 @ 01:25 PM - RE: Software piracy: good guy gone bad?

dubmunkey

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agreed, being essentially hardware-centric i must say Fruityloops was one of the best examples of cheap software out there....it does rudimentary things that even cubase doesn't...

Greg

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