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Subject: RIAA wants you!
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Original Message 1/116 26-Jul-03 @ 06:01 PM - RIAA wants you!
* if i remember correctly, in the first three months of this year music sales increased in the uk.
Message 2/116 26-Jul-03 @ 08:12 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
lucky for me i have no fixed IP
Message 3/116 26-Jul-03 @ 08:54 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
-j
Message 4/116 27-Jul-03 @ 12:42 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
they're trying to arrest the "service providers"
Message 5/116 27-Jul-03 @ 01:06 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
is football season over already?
damn.
Message 6/116 27-Jul-03 @ 04:47 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Ape
Message 7/116 27-Jul-03 @ 09:35 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Regards.
Steve.
Message 8/116 27-Jul-03 @ 09:36 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 9/116 27-Jul-03 @ 03:13 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 10/116 27-Jul-03 @ 09:07 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
the RIAA has that kind of loot.
Message 11/116 27-Jul-03 @ 09:09 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
theres one flaw in the whole "market shit music, to make as much as possible"
because...those big labels spend whole ing piles of money to market that shit music! Its sick how much they SPEND in order to make back a few bux.
seems like...damn...just find the real music out there, the good stuff, and dont get so hype on it. Dont require million dollar studios, etc...and dont market it so high, and get FAIR returns, not 1000000000000000000000000000000000%...
see...the music industry is fat and bloated ALL OVER, not just the records. EVERYTHING is over priced. Hell, bro, where do you work again? Only one of the most expensive sound design companies out there! Ever ask what their profit margins are? Not saying I know, but...
its not JUST the record companies. Its all intertwined, and its all bloated and disgusting, 100% across the board
and FUCK the RIAA
Message 12/116 28-Jul-03 @ 04:47 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
the separation of music and television will have to occur and of course.....the young powell will do everything he can to keep it a huge monoplistic business...as long as he keeps his job. which will be til september, he says. he can pillage and loot and then make a run for it. it's how the game is played anymore.
Message 13/116 28-Jul-03 @ 09:19 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Douglas Adams has a saying that if we find out the answer to L, the U and E, then the while thing be immediately replaced by something more bizarre
Message 14/116 28-Jul-03 @ 01:35 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Same with books. Wheres the pleaure of reading a book on your computer screen, when you should be sitting on the chod bin having a shite and reading it.
If the RIAA sends a subpeona to me then there gonna get it back in the post, with a big steaming turd accompanying it.
Message 15/116 28-Jul-03 @ 02:02 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
---------------------------------------------
It always bothers me that they hide behind the moral high ground. "We're protecting the artists!".. Sure, whatever.. They're spending more money prosecuting these people than they're losing! And they're alienating their customers.
YOU CANNOT STOP IT!!!!
Message 16/116 28-Jul-03 @ 03:47 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
"SEND A TURD TO HILARY "
musicians and people ww sending in turds in jiffy bags!
Message 17/116 28-Jul-03 @ 04:19 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 20/116 29-Jul-03 @ 08:34 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
*sound of fat bloke running off*
Message 22/116 29-Jul-03 @ 05:49 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
i bet you can't even buy half the shit i got here.
Message 23/116 29-Jul-03 @ 07:35 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 25/116 02-Aug-03 @ 01:07 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
I'm a bit disappointed in you, really, as you of all people here should know the deal with the music industry. You have the most connects of anybody here in it.
"because...those big labels spend whole ing piles of money to market that shit music! Its sick how much they SPEND in order to make back a few bux."
This is utter falicy. Why? Because the major labels in actuality spend nothing on any of it. It's ALL out there as loans to the artists. It's entirely recoupable. If the artist doesn't sell enough records to bring the record companies a FAT profit, then they keep all the money that they've made on sales, PLUS the artists have to pay back all of the money that the record company spent on recording, marketing, legal fees, etc. The list goes on and on. I KNOW you've read the info on this before. Folks here have posted links to articles that some BIG names have written about how that shit really goes down.
It is the fact that this stuff is fairly well known with nothing done to change it for whatever reason that pisses me off to the point of destructiveness. The biggest problem with the entire music industry is that it has NO risk. The majors have NO RISK: it's all just profit to them. They don't give a fuck about artistic nature. They give a fuck about what the accountants and market researchers say is the coming trend, and what the next catchy trick that some unknown pulled in a recording, and the kids will love when they hear.
American Idol is a hit for MILLIONS. Doesn't that tell you something about the fucking lower than shit pathetic state of ignorance and uncaring attitude that the public has been programmed into? I don't understand how the fuck everybody in this place doesn't just wretch on every single TV screen they see showing this show, and spit on every ad for it within spitting distance of them. It's the WORST affront I've ever in all of my years seen to artists and artisans. AND IT'S BLATANT!!!!! It's not funny, it's not a joke. It's sad because it already has made millions of dollars in advertisement, let alone the money that's going to be made on that tubby ass' renditions of somebody else's creativity. It's a message to the public that artisrty doesn't matter. No artist is unique. It's like 'Trading Places' for real. Now imagine how many kids were watching the show when they could have been working on their chops. Imagine how much originality got squashed with the latest ads to but the latest garbage from useless people. How fucking pathetic. And who makes money off of all that shit?
THE
R
I
A
A
I would rob a bank to pay for a contract to have Hillary Rosen's head cut off and immersed in a bucket of pig shit before her brain died, and then have photos circulated to the rest of the majors' execs, marketing wizards, and lawyers of her carcass being fed to more pigs to send them the message that they're next.
Who? Me? Pissed off at Rosen? Nah, just mildly irritated. You wouldn't want to see me when I'm actually pissed off.
Ape
Message 26/116 02-Aug-03 @ 03:43 AM Edit: 03-Aug-03 | 11:32 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
its not just the record companies. Gear is over priced, studio time is WAY overpriced, and the list goes on and on
at one point the micro economy that was the entire music industry could support the bloated cash cow that it had become, which is why studios could get away with paying $1000000000000 for a console, and charging 100000000 a day for their services.
times have changed, and the gluttony that was the norm is now backfiring, across the board. The fat pigs at the top are going to go DOWN and theyre gonna kick and scream all the way. Im glad to see it, even though it might affect me as well. I have yet to see a dime from any of this, but thats not even a minute part of why I got into it
What trips me out is that you seem to think that artists "deserve" to get paid for their efforts, but even that was a created situation! The "right" to make money doesnt exist, ya know?
Oh, and...dude...youre telling me record companies dont SPEND money? thats just utter nonsense. Youre disappointed in me...O.K! Sure sounds condescending!
Message 27/116 02-Aug-03 @ 09:20 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
That's the whole reason that most music on the market these days sucks. The record companies don't care. Thay don't have to. The overhead is so low for CD duplication that the profit margin is astronomical. No matter what they do, they win. It's a fuckin joke. Sure studio time is exspensive cuz the gear is and so many folks are doing stuff at home in 24/96, so who needs the big studios? If you read enough and practice enough...sure it won't be Abbey Road, but it'll be good enough for broadcast.
At the end of the day...FUCK THE MAJORS cuz they're fucking everybody else.
Ape
Message 29/116 02-Aug-03 @ 12:17 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
are
to
are
should do it.
-j
Message 30/116 02-Aug-03 @ 06:39 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
just checked.. oooh.. the html didn't go through.
i meant to say...
oh forget it.
-j
Message 33/116 03-Aug-03 @ 06:29 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Ape
Message 34/116 03-Aug-03 @ 11:33 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
ape..we're in total agreement on everything except that you seem to think its only the record companies doing the screwing.
that part I dont agree with
Message 35/116 03-Aug-03 @ 07:00 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
They don't care, so I say make them care. Take their money away, and give it to starving people all over the world, and show them the films of hungry children eating their profits, getting medicine, and learning to read and write, while the greedy fucks have ice-picks shoved under their knee-caps, bamboo spikes slowy pushed under their fingernails, and the odd electrical shock to keep them awake and aware.
grr.
Ape
Message 36/116 03-Aug-03 @ 09:02 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 37/116 04-Aug-03 @ 08:11 PM Edit: 04-Aug-03 | 08:14 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
If there is any criticism I can level at file sharing its when people download music made by independents and then not purchasing a CD if they like what they hear. Call me a hypocrite but if someone (Lars Inc.) is on a major label, fuckem because they a part of the problem with the music industry. If its an independent artist (Aimee Mann) having their work go unremunerated then I take exception. My examples above are, I believe, very good examples of two parties arguing the same point and only one having any ground to stand on.
Good or bad music, it works. If their music sucks no one is out major bucks. The artist doesn't owe a record company their house and perhaps goes back to perfect their chosen craft or back to their day job and the potential CD buyer gets to try out the music by downloading for free before buying a $16.00 coaster. If the artist's music is of some merit then the artist keeps the money in their pocket instead of paying to keep the record company's studio friends in catered food and SSL desks while the CD buyer gets quality work at a reasonable price (even if it is the "going rate" the buyer can feel good about being a direct patron to the artist - supporting the release of the artist's next CD).
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WorldBeat/05/14/ani.difranco/
http://u.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,216~24307~1526655,00.html
Message 38/116 04-Aug-03 @ 08:31 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
so, because you get to go indy you still charge the inflated commercial rates?
Message 39/116 04-Aug-03 @ 08:38 PM Edit: 04-Aug-03 | 08:39 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 40/116 04-Aug-03 @ 09:16 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
bro...shirts are like $5-$7 MAX each at low levels...I worked for a printer for 5 years.
Message 41/116 04-Aug-03 @ 10:06 PM Edit: 04-Aug-03 | 10:28 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Nor do I see the need for people who have paid their fair dues to be crammed into a minivan for hours on end. That doesn't mean I think they need a huge tour bus but an RV still isn't cheap to rent or to purchase and maintain. After a certain number of years and at a certain age, damn. Show a little love. After a certain point in an artists career they deserve a little more.
Another thing to consider is that these people must provide their own insurance and retirement. The only reason I have decent insurance and any type of retirement is because of my union and I've seen how much it cost when I didn't get enough gigs to cover my days for eligibility - I had to lose it. For that matter union dues aren't cheap nor are the benefits that have to be paid for any sidepeople if they are union and playing in union halls.
Just because someone chooses to be an artist doesn't make them immune to the same needs as everyone one else and if they are to make a living at it there are real world issues that must be addressed. The "suffering artist" thing is as much an overly romanticized illusion as the "rock star" thing.
Suffering for "art" is for amateurs and when your "art" costs $15.00 for the general public to experience it becomes, for better or worse, business. When its time to hit the road and make a living as a performer money must change hands. If one isn't savvy enough to insure enough money is changing hands to make a reasonable profit that takes business concerns and one's future into consideration one won't be performing anywhere other than one's garage, living room, or porch after too long.
I also don't really have a problem with an artist setting their prices at a level that the market will bear because they are getting the money not a huge corporation whose experience in the music amounts to supplying gin and vodka to clubs. If an audience feels the price is unfair or that the gains are put to ill use then they won't support the artist.
In the end it is no longer about going to see a show it is, literally, about supporting the artist. That doesn't mean being the loudest one at the show's encore. That means that, you, the concert goer are buying them their house. You are paying for their kids to be raised outside of poverty. You are paying for their family's food and clothing, for their kids to spend summer at the grandparent's, their kids' college tuition. You're paying them to invest the money that you give them wisely so they can be successful enough to keep you entertained for as long as they wish and for as long as there is an audience for them. THAT is what supporting an independent artist is about.
Message 42/116 04-Aug-03 @ 10:24 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
We have this ugly notion in our culture that success is measured in money. You and I wouldn't know Ani's name (well, my girlfriends a recovering lesbian, feminist, alterna-chick.. so maybe I would) if it wasn't for her success. And, "Why shouldn't she live by the same standard as other artists appearing on rolling stone?"
It's obscene that these artist's rattle on about the inequities of the industry, andthen work and play by it's rules. One sees the devil and Miss DeFranco in a dark room glaring at each other over a table... the devil says, "You and I are ONE, ANI! You sing the song of independence, but you suck from the tit of MY machine!"
OK, that's a little dramatic, but it's true. And here we rag on about the freedom of underground parties and how disconnected form the industry it all is... but I've never EVER met a promoter that could afford to keep promoting who was in it for the scene and not the money. And about 7 of 10 shows I've had to argue about, and fight for the money I was promised at a gig! So there you go!
There are a lot of truely disengaged scenes of merit out there... but they are mostly populated by those who've chosen to remove themselves COMPLETELY, or those who have day jobs!
Pongoid's friends at AMF come to mind as an example of how it COULD be done, if we'd all just get over ourselves... and our greed/complacency!
e
Message 43/116 04-Aug-03 @ 11:24 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
at the same time, Im not saying they should starve either, and since there is a viable market, there's no reason not to take part in it, but...no..dude...youre not gonna convince me that a $25 t-shirt (and, actually..the number I quoted was a bit HIGH, to factor in shipping, artwork and layout, etc) or a $7 sticker, or a $21 CD is justifiable.
and WHO THE FUCK IS GOING TO SUPPORT ME, then? eh? the argument youre presenting is as tho Im supposed to send Ani's kids to college?
wtf is that shit, man?
fact is, expectations are too high. ANYONE can fucking live off say $40k a year, actually way less really, if they just trim the fat a bit. Yes, concerts are expensive...
honestly, man...youre surprising me...you seem so anti-commercialism (simply for its own sake) most of the time, and yet, simply because someone tags themselves as independent, and then insists on operating at the same level as the norm, you defend them?
fuck..what was this thread about anyway? oh..the RIAA.
fact is, the whole fucking thing is a bloated bullshit scam. A paradigm was set when recorded music first became a commodity, and its gone straight down hill ever since.
I agree, an artist should be able to market their wares, no doubt, but if youre gonna claim to be bucking the system then DO IT. Charge LESS for things. Trim the fat, drastically if necessary. Got 2 cars? sell one. Got 15 keyboards? sell TEN. Booking time on an SSL? Find a cheaper studio.
its not that hard
Message 44/116 04-Aug-03 @ 11:32 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 45/116 04-Aug-03 @ 11:36 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Mick, man..Im sorry but I just dont agree with this.
what if they feel that they need to live in a 10br 3500sf compound? drive BMW instead of hondas? send their kids to harvard instead of a state school?
Im supposed to pay for that because I dig their tunes? bulllllshit
Message 46/116 05-Aug-03 @ 04:50 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
I hate having to repeat myself.
I don't want to sound condescending but maybe its something that one learns with age. That $40,000 a year needs to be profit and it needs to be consistant. Freelancing means that one year you may make 80,000 - 100,000 or more one year then be lucky to clear 10,000 the next year or the following one. THAT'S the reality. If you work for someone else, if you have never freelanced and had to (or like a fool never bothered to) look into purchasing your own insurance plan (a decent one that includes comprehensive preventative health care) then you don't know what's up. When you're 70, the SSA is bankrupt, you never could afford a 401k (or whatever), and you health is failing because you could never afford decent insurance and now no one will touch you is the wrong time to figure it out. Think beyond the immediate or grow old and die like a stray dog. I've watched someone close to me die a horrible, humiliating, death for want of decent preventative health care so I've seen it first hand.
Message 47/116 05-Aug-03 @ 05:38 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Im fucking self employed dude. have been for 5 years now.
yes, you do sound condescending;)
$40k a year PROFIT?!?!?1 are you fucking KIDDING ME?!?!?!
man...mick...you live on a different planet. sucks something bad happened to someone you know but bad things happen to millions of people every single day, and the majority of it has to do with profiteering
Message 48/116 05-Aug-03 @ 06:22 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 49/116 05-Aug-03 @ 07:38 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Funny, here we were bashing on the proftieering, greed and ME ME ME bullsh+t and you come riding in telling us to grow up!
I'm sorry this bad thing happened to your friend. Really. It's not ok that people have to die that way.
But your analogy is a bit like the guy who learns to punch first 'cause he got jumped once in the street. Lives the rest of his life worried about it happening again. It's smart, sure... but it sure is supid too. (Not that I'm calling you stupid, that's not my point!)
A Tibetan teacher said:
The problem with people in the west is they're so busy worrying about what might happen that they miss what's happening!
I think that's smarter, personaly!
e
Message 50/116 05-Aug-03 @ 08:08 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 52/116 05-Aug-03 @ 06:22 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 53/116 05-Aug-03 @ 07:35 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 54/116 05-Aug-03 @ 09:25 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
"Grow the hell up, and stop being so idealistic!"
Whatever. This has become a pointless debate for me.
Message 55/116 05-Aug-03 @ 09:47 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
psy
Message 56/116 05-Aug-03 @ 10:10 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
and no one told you to grow up, Mick. It seemed as though that was what you were saying
Message 57/116 05-Aug-03 @ 10:35 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
I totaly get the point.. i just don't agree. I think that a lot of that is what makes the mess... but then, I'm not a capitalist! Not sure why you'd get angry just because we don't see eye to eye.
it's the Ant and the Grasshoper, isn't it? I suppose, once you've hoarded all your nuts you'll be damned if your taxes will pay for my healthcare needs as well.
We have a fundamental disgreement here of how things SHOULD be. So what?
That all said, I totaly understand and agree with your point about the money. $40,000 after costs... absolutely, reasonable, exceptable! Because as a few of us have said, there's nothing wrong with selling what you do to make a living... and if I have a day job, my tracks won't go where I want them... won't be what i want them to be.
The point here, is (I think) that folks like Ani are maing more than that magic number, now aren't they? Significantly more... and there's the rub... greed is ugly, but it's even uglier when it's couched in something altruistic.
e
Message 58/116 06-Aug-03 @ 12:08 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 59/116 06-Aug-03 @ 12:44 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Rules of economics 1: there is no enough
I was at a consolodated gig and on the 'pass the mic session' someone complained that the t shirts were 10 pounds, so the lead singer said, make them a fiver for the night.
An Mick "Market will bare" hahahahahahaha
Message 60/116 06-Aug-03 @ 01:22 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 61/116 06-Aug-03 @ 04:09 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
$40,000 wouldn't even cover the cost of a year's touring. $40,000 net I might agree with but I'm curious as to the number of people on this site who have children and what they think of raising a family on $40,000. God forbid someone's child is born needing lifelong medical attention beyond the norm.
Message 63/116 06-Aug-03 @ 02:45 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
I get annoyed by the Ani thing...one of my ex's dragged me to a show, and the merch was still like $25 for a shitty shirt, CDs were $21 or so...
---------------------------------------------
I have to weigh in on this a little bit. Being from Buffalo, I hear a lot about Ani and her comings and goings. What I can say is that she pumps a ton of money back into the community. She still lives here, in her home town. She runs her business out of Buffalo. She just shelled out like $3 million or something like that to buy and restore a landmark church that was crumbling to the ground, and our city council was too fucking stupid to figure out how to save it. They literally had the street closed on the churches block for years because the were afraid the steeple was going to fucking fall off the church. She's setting up all her companies in that building, creating jobs in the city, and paying taxes in a place that's lost like 40% of its population over the last 10 years.
So she isn't hiding behind anything. Of course she plays the game.. What artist doesn't? Once you make the decision you're going to live off it you have no choice. Like Mick said, you have realities you need to think about - medical expenses, retirement, supporting a family, etc.. It's nice to know that she gives it back when she knows she has a surplus...
As opposed to Johnny Rzeznik of the Goo Goo Dolls who took his money and split to LA, or some of these rappers who have one hit song and buy a fucking grage full of Bentleys.
-Craig
PS - sometimes she's even sighted at people's gigs or in various bars downtown..
Message 64/116 06-Aug-03 @ 05:34 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
It is a bit hypocritical to sing songs about a departure from the machine, how ugly the shit is, and then to dig right in with everyone else... that said i do not feel entitled in any way to judge anybody and it's a mistake that it got to bashing any individual!
I'm just saying if you don't like the machine, if it makes you sick... don't feed it. Period
Hey Mick, I'm not pissing on you... didn't mean to come off that way. I'm a grown up, with children... I live on right around $40,000 and frankly when compared with the rest of the earth, that's obscene! It's fuckin' sick that I make twice the earth's monthly wage everyday! That's not OK... but our culture REQUIRES it to some degree... I don't want my children to be homeless and shit on by a twisted society that puts greed before compassion. So I'm a part of that shit too. But I don't NEED more than that, and therefore I don't take it. I could.
But this ain't about me... just answering your call for someone to speak up who has more than themselves to consider. I'd feel like a shitty father if I taught my children otherwise.
e
Message 65/116 06-Aug-03 @ 05:48 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
e
Message 66/116 06-Aug-03 @ 08:44 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
but as errata said...Im not attacking ADF. It was just an example. This kind of shit happens all the time.
altho..people could just not buy the damn shirts, huh?
Message 67/116 07-Aug-03 @ 12:37 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
market hahahaha
whats the point again?
Message 68/116 07-Aug-03 @ 02:05 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
I can see how easy it is to get caught up in it though.. One minute it's like my band - broke, broke, broke. So broke there's no way we could even think about sustaining ourselves. So you charge whatever the max is you can get so you can pay your bills. Then somewhere along the line you realize, "hey I'm fucking loaded".. At least Ani gives it back to where she came from.
I know it wasn't an Ani diss specifically but I'm sure she's not the only one who does this, and I'm sure there are many who do just feed the machine.
If that matters to you you should only support the artists who have similar beliefs. That's part of the reason why I'm such a huge KMFDM fan - there's a measure of musical integrity that's missing in most bands today.
To steer this back on topic, I saw in Rolling Stone that the RIAA sued four college kids who built MP3 search engines for like $900 million apiece. They wound up settling for $9-12k, but basically they took these kids' college tuition savings.
I swear if I didn't love music so much I'd never buy another fucking CD.
Someone should sue the RIAA on the basis that shutting down things like Napster and MP3 searches illegally re-enforces the virtual monopoly their combined constituents hold over independent artists like ourselves.. In effect forcing artists to go through the system for distribution. It's anti-competetive.
-Craig
Message 69/116 07-Aug-03 @ 10:51 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Every real musician dies destitute but not every destitute musician really LIVES!!!!
"So if ah rrrisk me neck fer yoo do ah get ta kill kill the music industrree execs?"
"Aye, ya get to kill the music industry execs."
"Excellent!"
Message 70/116 07-Aug-03 @ 11:30 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
*ducks hail of arrows,bends over,lifts kilt,shakes arse at the filthy sasannaich*:P
Message 71/116 07-Aug-03 @ 11:49 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 72/116 08-Aug-03 @ 09:48 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
not that it matters in the slightest, but Id like to make it clear that I am in no way against artists making money. AT ALL. Those who have accused me of this are idiots. period.
My "beef" is with "independent" artists who continually spout off about being independent, and yet follow the exact same model as those they claim to be rallying against.
THIS is where the $25 T-Shirt comes in. The kind of profit margin seen on some of these things is ludicrous. I dont remember what was paid to get into the ADF show I went to, but I dont remember it being too high, but it wasnt all that low either.
but...mick..you get so pissy about all this, and yet...you have a HUGE rig, last I saw, with how many keyboards, etc? That is your own personal business, mind you, but the minute you start thinking that is a necessity and that "the audience" should finance you is when it gets ridiculous. Same thing goes for any band...I mean...there are ways to cut costs, and there are ways to reduce the amount of required income and if someone isnt looking into these possibilities, then in my mind their expectations of income are a sketchy.
but there isnt any real reason that a musician, singer, whatever, shouldnt be similiar to a carpenter, plumber, etc. They provide a service, however intangible sometimes, and definitely deserve to get paid.
but..its STILL ludicrous to EXPECT this! no matter what anyone says, talent is a gift and nothing more. All that work to get to that level of proficiency does not automatically equal reward! Yes, maybe it "should" be different. I wont argue against that.
The comment about paying for someones house, etc, and sending their kids to college? Im sorry but wtf is that shit? NONSENSE.
anyway...off topic yet again, but this got brought up by someone else and I was accused of many things which I am not
Message 73/116 09-Aug-03 @ 01:46 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 74/116 09-Aug-03 @ 03:10 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
but what Im saying..hmmm
summation:
modern income expectations are often way too high, including those of "artists"
to expect the plebians to support an exorbitant income expectation is ludicrous. I for one wont go for it, nor would I ask it.
better?
Message 75/116 09-Aug-03 @ 08:10 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
My statement about fans paying for an artist's home, etc. is simply a recognition of a defacto relationship.
Message 76/116 09-Aug-03 @ 11:05 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 77/116 09-Aug-03 @ 03:00 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 78/116 09-Aug-03 @ 03:17 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 81/116 09-Aug-03 @ 06:15 PM Edit: 09-Aug-03 | 06:41 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
It isn't "your job" but choosing to support an artist through going to shows, buying CDs, t-shirts, etc., is in fact "telling" them that the job they are doing, entertaining you through their art, has met your approval. You are "telling" them how to do their job and how to live their life. You are saying, "I like your art enough to buy it, keep making art.", "I like your performance enough to buy a ticket, keep performing." If they do something that displeases you, lets say you discover that they are a shareholder in a thirdworld sweatshop, and you stop buying their art and going to their performances then you are saying, "I don't approve of what you've done, I'm not buying your art or seeing your performances anymore." In this instance you are "telling" them how to live.
I guess what I'm getting at is that artists are, and should be, appreciated for their unique ability to do something that few people have the talent and drive to do. If enough people are appreciative then they can make a viable living from their art.
It should go without saying that independent artists tend to have values that differ from those who choose to pursue "the deal". As such there is more expected of them and, if they deliver, they distinguish themselves even more. A talented person who brings joy to others through their ability to create (again, a unique talent) AND displays a level of integrity that is also unique among their peers and the public in general is deserving of the support of their fans. That support is shown through the exchange of cash and that cash is what the artists will be using to buy their house, put their kids through college, take a vacation, etc..
I want to see the artists I like come to town and put on a show. I want them to be able to afford that. I want the artists that I like to be able to go home after tour and take the time they need to write, record and prepare for the next tour. If they can't do that then I don't get to see them again, I don't get to hear their music anymore and there will be more opportunity for shitty music to fill the void in the bins and on the air.
Do they have a "better" house than I? Well lets see. I don't risk my money on touring. I don't have anyone on payroll (i.e., I'm not directly responsible for someone else's livelihood). I don't spend months on the road dealing with fans graciously, day in and day out, regardless of having had a shitty day or not. Have you ever been at dinner with one of these people and had their fans interrupt for an autograph? Anyone who can graciously deal with that on a daily basis deserves a little extra. Perhaps they have earned a "better" house because they have taken risks and put themselves in a position that I have no desire to. Does it make them a "better" person than I? Of course not. They have given up a part of their life, sacrificed something for their art, so they deserve bonus points. After having seen what some of these people deal with I can't begrudge them a little extra, especially if they put it to good use.
Before anyone bags on me for deifying these people, let me first tell you I don't. Let me also say that, unless you have been there with these people and seen first hand what they have to deal with don't go off on some theoretical impression of the way you think things are based upon People Magazine or winning tickets from your local radio station to hang out backstage one night with the headliner. Until you have spent some time with someone who has acquired a level of celebrity don't go there. I also realize that some of these people eat it up BUT not all of them do and not all of them understand the reality of that possibility going in. In the end they are "just like everybody else" the difference is that they have to deal with things that not "everybody else" does, or has the ability to. Again, they get bonus points because all the while they are doing this they are keeping me entertained and sometimes even moved. I want them to be as happy as they make me sometimes. Its only fair.
One question that may clear up a lot of misunderstanding about people's position on such matter is this: "Do you think an chemical engineer should make more money than the guy at Waffle House?"
Message 83/116 09-Aug-03 @ 07:12 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 84/116 09-Aug-03 @ 07:51 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
choosing life as an artist is in and of itself a risk because there are NO guarantees whatsoever. It would be truly wonderful if our system recognized art at the lower levels and encouraged and even subsidized it, but it doesnt, so making that choice is making the choice to struggle. And certain people amongst us clearly believe that they are OWED something, and thats just bullshit
and yes, a recording engineer is justified in earning a higher income because his skills are far more elaborate. flipping waffles is not a high-skilled job (but then, getting paid $6 an hour, which is NOT enough to live on, is not cool)
Im not a socialist, or an anti-capitalist in ANY way shape or form. I hate greed and gluttony though, and the music industry is rife with such, and the model is so thoroughly ingrained in our minds that even those who think they are bucking the system end up directly following that model!
Message 85/116 09-Aug-03 @ 07:56 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
call me a nitwit, but I really don't think "independant recording artists" run into the same privacy issues when they're out and about as say "Ben and Jen".
y'know, sometimes talented people can be complete fUckwits. you wouldn't want to encourage people to live or treat other people like Van Gogh did -- hell, you wouldn't even wanna be around the guy -- but he sure could paint.
honestly though, I don't see my relationship to "Artist" as being all that different from my relationship to waffleguy. payment for services rendered. if I like the waffles, I might go back there and eat again. if I like the CD, I might buy the next one. if I like the concert, I might pony up come next tour. once the cash is in someone else's hands, though, it's theirs and not mine, and my say in what happens to it next is, oh like, nonexistant.
Message 86/116 09-Aug-03 @ 08:04 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Im not, at all.
Message 89/116 09-Aug-03 @ 08:55 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
No, you can't call them on the phone and say, "You bastard, stop doing what your doing straight away or I'll get on the bus, hunt you down, and have at you in an unsavory way. Nee, I say.", and expect them to do anything other than call the cops and have you put away for the threat of unsavoryness and saying nee at will to people.
But, spending you money on an artist's work is a tacit agreement between you and the artist. The agreement is that you will support the artist, monetarily (which in turn supports their chosen lifestyle), if they continue to meet your approval, i.e., make art that you like and live their life in a manner that you are willing to support through your patronage. The Dixie Chicks just dealt with this when they expressed their opposition to the war. Their redneck fans said, "Fuck you we won't buy your CD or go see your show". In this case it wasn't because the fans didn't like their music anymore, it was because of the fans' disapproval of the way they chose to live their lives at that particular moment. The result of their fans' decision to boycott directly effected their (inflated) income. This same priniple applies to artists at any level, although, more so at the lower levels where there is not the same kind of financial pad.
As far as an artist feeling that they are "owed" something, that falls under the category of unacceptable and unsupportable behavior. The artists who don't feel this way are the ones whose fans tend to feel the artist actually is owed something. Especially artists whose income does reach a certain point where they feel they owe something back and contribute to their communities. That's what the term "owing something back" means - its literal and many artists take it thus. See the relationship? The irony?
Message 90/116 09-Aug-03 @ 10:28 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
but to me, inflated profits are not the way to do this.
taking from someone to give to someone else..well...just doesnt sit right with me.
and Im just talkin about your average working shmuck.
Message 91/116 10-Aug-03 @ 06:29 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 92/116 10-Aug-03 @ 02:53 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 93/116 10-Aug-03 @ 05:17 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 94/116 10-Aug-03 @ 07:35 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
blech. ptooey. thats not really "given freely" altho it isnt straight up coercion either
Message 96/116 12-Aug-03 @ 09:44 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 98/116 12-Aug-03 @ 10:29 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 99/116 12-Aug-03 @ 10:46 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 100/116 13-Aug-03 @ 12:01 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
fightin words, fellas
Message 101/116 13-Aug-03 @ 01:07 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
*hides behind psylichon*
Message 102/116 13-Aug-03 @ 02:53 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
kinda hard to hide behind psy, man. hes all of what...140lbs? at 6'+ thats not much substance;)
Message 103/116 13-Aug-03 @ 03:28 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 110/116 19-Sep-03 @ 09:49 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Not true but watch out they like systems and automatic (see satelite tracking for speeding and parking fining). Its like having to queue at the police station every morning to ask if you have done anything that you need to give them your money/liberty for
The funny bit is in the RIAA thing is watching the polarization of artists
Message 111/116 19-Sep-03 @ 10:08 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 112/116 19-Sep-03 @ 10:29 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
haven't downloaded any music for ages, last thing i got off kazaa was a load of derek and clive and some porn when the lads came back from the pub the other night.
Message 113/116 19-Sep-03 @ 11:28 AM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Message 114/116 19-Sep-03 @ 02:04 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
Ape
Message 116/116 18-Mar-06 @ 03:16 PM Edit: 19-Mar-06 | 10:38 PM - RE: RIAA wants you!
and your battery will run out quicker with drm. woohoo.
and bill thompson talks some sense
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