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Subject: reverb theory

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Original Message 1/25 21-Sep-04 @ 04:02 PM - reverb theory

Dominic

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So the bigger the room, what?

1. More pre delay
2. More decay
3. Less liveness
4. Less Attack
5. Less high frequencies and more low frequencies eq

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Message 2/25 21-Sep-04 @ 05:00 PM - RE: reverb theory

beds

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yes

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Message 3/25 21-Sep-04 @ 08:43 PM - RE: reverb theory

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no - not neccessarily - ever been in a huge room and clapped your hands? if the room is BIG bottom end is actualy swallowed up and top-end is emphasised, but also depends on the walls (like say an old factory with concrete walls & floor etc - pre-delay is good, but in large room you'll get post reflections.

attack is down to the positioning of the mic (in the mix i mean), like if you mic'd someone singing fairly close, but also recorded the huge concerete room you'd still get alot of attack

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I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 4/25 22-Sep-04 @ 06:21 AM - RE: reverb theory

psylichon

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another rule of thumb i've found is higher density for more transient material and less density for sustained pads and vocals. high density on vocals can make them unclear and confusing.

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Message 5/25 22-Sep-04 @ 10:15 AM - RE: reverb theory

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yeah, 'swamped in reverb' vocals is a typical noob problem... well, over-use of reverb generaly is a usual noob mistake isn't it.

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Message 6/25 22-Sep-04 @ 10:16 AM - RE: reverb theory

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the other thing is of course (obvious probably) if stuff that is to the front of the mix has no reverb, then 'some' reverb added to other thinsg will have more emphasis.. but if everythings got 'some' reverb on it, you'll need to add even more reverb to create the impression of 'more' reverb on the other things - the whole mix will loose definition as a consequence.

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Message 7/25 22-Sep-04 @ 10:43 AM - RE: reverb theory

Dominic

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Cool, thanks guys. Reallly useful. The only thing I never put reverb on is the kick drum and bassline. Everything gets a dash of reverb. Thing is I quite like the snare to have a room on it which means that if nothiing else gets reverb it sound odd. S'posse I could use an ambience patch to treat the drums. This is how I kinda use my reverb:-

1. Room 10 metres - drums

2. Chamber 20 metres - synths and the odd percussion like rimshots, claves (and maybe a cheeky clap)

3. Hall 40 metres - pads, strings, fx

But then I read reverb articles that say the general rule of thumb is to put everything in the same space to make it sound cohesive and if its all coming from one space. But when I try this is just sounds wanky.

Hmmmm, maybe I should start using a plate for my drums, one hall for everything else and then have a special fx reverb for the odd FX.

How do you guys treat your tracks when it comes to reverb? Probably depends on the type of track. Maybe longer times for slower tracks and shorter decay, dly, etc times for faster tempo tracks. But what type of reverb d'you think works well for club tracks around the 128bpm mark. I'm just getting into using plates and it does sound chunky. I know we're s'posseed to leave FX until the last stage but I'm naughty in that I can't really "feel" a track unless there'e a dash of reverb going.

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Message 8/25 22-Sep-04 @ 11:50 AM - RE: reverb theory

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um.... but we cant actualy HEAR a your music can we?... you aint added anything to your profile to listen to.

what kinda music do you make?

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Message 9/25 22-Sep-04 @ 12:15 PM - RE: reverb theory

Dominic

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K, I (try) to make house but I'm rubbish. I have no natural talent at music making whatsoever. This is not me trying to be modest. Its the truth. I still love trying to make music more than anything though but this is why I don't have any tracks up on DT. There crap mate.

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Message 10/25 22-Sep-04 @ 01:28 PM - RE: reverb theory

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what sequencer U using?

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Message 11/25 22-Sep-04 @ 01:30 PM - RE: reverb theory

Dominic

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Logic 5.5 on a PC running Battery, Pro 53 and Absynth 2. Can't blame the tools then?

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Message 12/25 22-Sep-04 @ 06:14 PM - RE: reverb theory

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well why not just import a drum/rhythm loop from some track you like, then use the Logic quantise section to grab a midi quantise from the audio loop and use that to do your midi drum parts - copy basicaly until it becomes second nature to you.

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Message 13/25 23-Sep-04 @ 09:45 AM - RE: reverb theory

Dominic

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Copying tracks IS all I do. Its not the writing of the tracks that's an issue K. Its the production. I can never seem to get my tracks pumping, kicking or have any depth. They always sound 1 dimensional when I compare them to the producers I rate. It can't be ALL about mastering surely? But I s'posse if it was easy then everyone would be doing it. Plus the fun bits getting there innit.

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Message 14/25 23-Sep-04 @ 10:18 AM - RE: reverb theory

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so ....how does it connect to your original question?.... you cant get the 'space'

reverb might not be the answer - btw - you are comparing your results to vinyls or CD's on the SAME system yes? - just wanna check it's not your speaker/amp combo for the lack of 'punch' issue.

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Message 15/25 23-Sep-04 @ 11:23 AM - RE: reverb theory

Dominic

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Exactly K. This reverb thread relates to one of these 3 areas of my production problems, namely depth. I'm kinda thinking that if my reverbs represent the "sound stage" I should be able to use my reverbs to give the listener a sense of depth, eg I want my aquatic sounding pads to feel like they are in the distance compared to my snare and hi-hat. While a plate works fantastic for drums and percussion, it doesn't sound good over a pad. A big gothic hall sounds better over a pad but doesn't sit well with the plates - it doesn't sound cohesive enough and as if the drums and pads are coming from the same tune.

Yes I always rip CD tracks into my computer and then import the WAV into my Logic arrangement. One quick question though K��I want to be able to send program change messages to my MPX 500 so I plugged a midi lead going out of my AMT8 into the midi in of my lexicon but what track do I use in the arrangement window to send the program change message and do I have to set this up (as an midi instrument) in the midi environment page?

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Message 16/25 23-Sep-04 @ 09:37 PM - RE: reverb theory

craig

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I usually tend to use no more than 2 reverbs per track, unless I'm using something crazy for effect. I think it sounds more natural and it's much harder to wash out the track that way, with lots of competing reverbs.

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Message 17/25 23-Sep-04 @ 10:30 PM - RE: reverb theory

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tough one man cos it's so dependent on the material... I suggest using ONE reverb ...

perhaps try just doing excercises in depth - use the one verb and set it to a hall - more 'present' eq's (in the mid band 1-5k ish) bring thinsg forward, roll of the top and mid and things are less 'present' - add some verb to those to complete the illusion as a basic excercise.

if someone talks and backs away talking further and further as an experiment (try it with a mate in the park) the presense & top-end dissapears off their voice, the definition gets less and less

but delay is a very important tool cos it does delay to give depth and spacey-ness bbut can also create width... very very short delays panned one way and the instrument panned the other - create stereo spread, open up holes in the middle, add things into the hole etc

longer delays added very subtley and with 'some' reverb too creates alot of depth and spaceyness, but you gotta be subtle with the delay, not actualy really hear distinct repeats, the delay timing HAS to be right, and you can use less verb then... spaceyness doesn have to mean 'swamped in reverb

you can stop 'mushiness' by filtering the send signal to the effect unit, so the signal going to the reverb can have the bass-end shelved off subtley or dramaticaly... you could shelve off to remove deeper bass at around 110hz

do you ever solo the reverb bus in logic and listen to it alone? - anyways you can get glossy reverb with no bass or low-mid setup a signal to the reverb eq's in different ways and see the effect - like setup a send to Bus 1 in logic, add a 'FAT EQ' - THEN a reverb - setup a long verb and experiment with the eq

then add the delay on another bus and mix those two with the original, just like as a mess about I mean to see what you can see with those 3 items - one sound/VSTi, one eq/reverb bus and one delay bus, then just mess about

anyways, it's very dependent on the context, production decisions are so unique to each track, dont get obessed with depth.. which leads me to a question:

how's your mixes WITHOUT reverb at all?... or delay.. just raw and dry?

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Message 18/25 23-Sep-04 @ 10:32 PM - RE: reverb theory

beds

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the sends in logic are mono, so when you pan, the signaly going to the reverb is still in the centre. this is gonna fuck your space up.

you want something to go back in the mix? #1 turn it down, take off some top and bottom, give it some reverb.

bring it forward? turn it up, give it some top and bottom, less reverb.

try it out with just 2 similar sounds, panned left and right.

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Message 19/25 24-Sep-04 @ 04:37 PM - RE: reverb theory

Dominic

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Good advise guys. And yes K, good point on delay aswell. Delay is fundamental for depth. I will give a go at just using 2 reverbs aswell.

K, my mixes sound Okish with just compression on the bass and kicks, sub group compression on my drums and sub group compression on my synths, then compression across the sub masters but��..this together with the writing of the tunes is about as far as I get. I try to use distortion and overdrive (in all the different forms of logics native plug-ins) but its just sounds too harsh (to me anyway). Apart from a bit of flange on the hi hats I'm not really sure what else to try on drums?

I worked out how to send program change messages to my lexicon. The idea was to load different patches into my lexicon as the tempo of my track changes to try and get all the reverb parametres in sync with tempo but it takes 3 seconds for the patches to load which means my parts had no reveb for 3 seconds which sounded crap so I binned that idea and just took an average of all the tempos Vs ms timings of decay parametres, pre delay, etc and compromised.

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Message 20/25 24-Sep-04 @ 04:52 PM Edit: 24-Sep-04 | 04:55 PM - RE: reverb theory

SignalRunners - BLU

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what i do sometimes-

say you use many different reverbs like your doing now, but back off a bit on them a little and use 1 general reverb to send each part to overall-

i.e

Ill use different settings of/and reverbs on my audio tracks, getting everything sounding nearly there, but i pump the channels all out to 16 tracks on desk and have a hardware lexicon that i set-up , like k says, hall (medium whatever) which i send tiny bits of the reverbed audio tracks to , to gloss over the already partially reverbed parts, giving (hopefully) a cohesive mix.

I dont use sends in the sequencer however, i just sit plug ins straight onto tracks (pt) so i dont know how tricky this may be to do in your particular set-up.

works well tho!

blu

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Message 21/25 24-Sep-04 @ 05:18 PM - RE: reverb theory

Dominic

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Cool idea Blu. A bit like what a finaliser does or that old studio trick of putting the final mix through a reverb unit to make it shimmer and sound expensive. I'm gonna try this tonight. Thanks. But:-

What room size (metres) do you punch into your "master" Lexicon and do you add a touch of verb to the kick and bass too?

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Message 22/25 24-Sep-04 @ 06:23 PM - RE: reverb theory

SignalRunners - BLU

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It really depends (that old cliche) on the mix before it , never an exact figure- just what sounds right to me really i guess, i never really go for a gigantic room size tho. Ill sometimes apply settings onto the lex and then solo/unsolo the send and adjust size etc back and forth from there till i have something that clicks into place

i never reverb the kick and bassline either, its really just used on tie all the other stuff together, previously verbed stuff - synths, vocals etc...

blu

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Message 23/25 01-Oct-04 @ 04:36 PM - RE: reverb theory

L$8

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If you want to try something fairly dramatic on drums, try the PSP vintagewarmer and crank the drive knob up 6-8dB.

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Message 24/25 01-Oct-04 @ 08:05 PM - RE: reverb theory

psylichon

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another fun thing to do is put processors before you reverb on an aux channel. For example, a gently-sloping hipass filter to prevent low frequency content from getting muddled in the verb. Or an old-skool trick of putting an expander first so the louder a singer sang, the more verb they got. Or try extreme compression for the opposite effect.

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Message 25/25 18-Apr-05 @ 01:19 PM - RE: reverb theory

monkeybasket2001

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i do house tunes around that tempo- havent cracked my big verbs yet but for drums i use my lexicon lxp-1.....shortest decay- top rolled down, density up, and a delay of either 8ms/16ms/28ms or 58ms- usually 28 or 16 as they are divisions of the 130 tempo...picked it up froma book by bobby owsinki....seems loads of pros use pre delay on verbs all the time- copied it and yes it sounds great!!

greg

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