bloody bass................. - Music techology forums

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Subject: bloody bass.................

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Original Message 1/47 31-May-05 @ 03:45 PM - bloody bass.................

Dominic

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In my humble opinion, BASS is the single most difficult area of club music production to master. I've tried everything��different VSTi's including ESM, ESP, ES1, ES2, TRILOGY, ALBINO, PRO-53, FM7, ALBINO, TRIANGLE, the list goes on. No, I haven't just scrolled through presets��I've tried rolling my own.

I've tried writing basslines on all the octaves in all keys��..I've tried different settings on software compression, hardware compression, software distortion, hardware distortion, software overdrive, hardware overdrive, hi and low pass filters, cutting 40-50hz from the bottom end, layering, just using one oscillator, just using 2 oscillators, blah, blah, bloody blah��

What are you chaps using for bass? How can I get that phat sounding bass I hear on pro underground electronic house tracks��.? PLEASE��.I can do every other element (drums, leads, gated pads, SFX, mixing, production, limiting to a 7.5 out of 10 standard). I just cannot do bloody bass.......is there a secret VSTI?

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Message 2/47 31-May-05 @ 05:48 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Bluescreen

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I'd invest some bucks for a few lessons in a professional studio.

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Message 3/47 01-Jun-05 @ 03:42 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

BOO

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Try rolling off the low low frequencies of the bass. Start a gentle slope at around 100hz or so and
roll off to taste. Most of the stuff at the real low end is just sub noise, anyway. I always thought
you needed these hz in tact for *big* bass, but you need less of it than you think. Once this is all
done, you'd be surprised at how large you can make your bass - Bring it's fader up, or boost the
eq from 100 - upwards.

I've been frustrated with bass for ages and I've only just recently started rolling off the nasty bits.
For one reason or another, I'd forgotten to do this.

Also - Layer bass with a pad or another bass.

And also - Chorus!

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Message 4/47 01-Jun-05 @ 05:28 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Dominic

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wicked, so maybe I should try rolling off at 100hz rather than 40hz. Nice - gonna try this tonight. Makes sense cos then as you say I will be able to push the fader up a bit and make it appear louder without robbing headroom. Thanks Boo.

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Message 5/47 01-Jun-05 @ 05:56 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Influx

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gonna have to disagree with that one, big time

"BIG BASS" is 40hz, around there.

100hz wont do it.

are you using a highpass EQ or "rolling off" those are two different terms. Id try a steep sloped highpass.

I cut my bass at 30, kicks and such at 60-100 depending, and everything else that might have the slightest bit of unnecessary low at whatever I determine to be that region

do you hve an analyzer, either plugin or outboard? if not, check out INSPECTOR. it is a free spectral analyzer plug, the best Ive found so far.

make sure you put it on an insert that is post fader (on the main bus) otherwise itll clip all the time.

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Message 6/47 01-Jun-05 @ 06:41 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

BOO

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It depends on the source material and style?

I'm not going to disagree with Influx because he knows his stuff. However, gently hi passing at 100 seems to clean up my stuff no end. I've been experimenting with that and I'm able to get some seemingly huge basses without any mud - Got a couple of A/B mixes played out on a big sound system with and without cut and it made the world of difference to my stuff. Now, it can go as loud as you like and still sound crisp, yet heavy. Hmmm. Also, adding more bass during playback can add more lower end, yet it's still sounding good. More experimentation.

Maybe my basses just aren't that big?

But, I guess some of the industrial stuff I've heard is pretty muddy down there, though. Some people like that.

Inspector IS good and free:

Inspector

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Message 7/47 01-Jun-05 @ 07:11 PM Edit: 01-Jun-05 | 07:19 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

S1GNALRUNNERS - BLU

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yeah i agree on the roll off - theres fuck all wrong witrh sloping off at 80-100, dep[endant on style but your ojn the house stuff dom right -

BIG BASS in your house and BIG BASS in a club / big rig is 2 entirely diff things - you dont need as much as youd think id bet - use your ears instead of numbers ( u always sound to me like your taking numbers direct from some text book no offence

) What you percieve as a stomach churning bassline in your house normally soudns like a big fucking mess once you get it played out a full on system

i posted a track on the music section recorded from radio 1 last month - called 3000 mile away - thats got a hi-ish bass cut on it and sounds fucking lovely on a big club system, comes out next month- listen out for it

as for vsts, good moog samples are your friend if your making house thumpers!

blu

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Message 8/47 02-Jun-05 @ 01:19 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

Influx

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I dont know where this 100hz thing came from! thats "bass" but its not BASS

an open e on a bass guitar is 60hz. would you highpass that? if you did you would be cutting the meat of the sound

theres a fundamental difference between highpass and rolloff eq, so maybe thats how you guys are getting results that are satisfactory. or else youre just fucking HIGH

I just finished a tune that I wrote the B-line without thinking of where it was hitting. It does an octave drop/rise and in the higher notes its hitting around 100hz, and the "BASS" truly disappears.

I think that bass should be LOW...40hz up to maybe 60 max. Of course there can be harmonics above that, and you can add top-end sounds to accentuate the bass and make it audible on small speakers and shit, but literally CUTTING below 100hz is just ludicrous. Im really confused by you guys claimin that this is working for you. youre removing the LOW from the LOW! why?

yes, highpassing is a damn good idea as it frees up lots of room, but if a sound is supposed to have lots of low in it...why eliminate that? just clear it out of other sounds to make room for it!

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Message 9/47 02-Jun-05 @ 01:49 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

S1GNALRUNNERS - BLU

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well, im talking about rolling eq , boo 'a gentle slope at around 100hz ' which suggests the same, so i think your getting mixed up a little

I dont think anybodys talking about lashing a grm tools hipass clean onto 100 hz - from what i read

blu

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Message 10/47 02-Jun-05 @ 06:31 AM Edit: 02-Jun-05 | 06:32 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

urbicide

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electronic music? hmmm... I cannot compose good techno. There's something missing in me to do it but I do other stuff, guitar, piano, etc... and this is what I've been going by.

Ever use that bass boost function on your amp in your car or home system? If you push that button and if it sounds like shit. Even if its just a smidgen. You got a problem down the line.

I've never used a digital bass... maybe a dx7 but I've found analog to be the best bet. It has thoose natural frequiences that just gel a piece together. When I use a bass, I usually end up driving the eq on the low end. I raise the gain/q usually below 60 hz and sometimes lower the mud around 120... altering stuff below 28 hz usually causes massive problems. be careful. I have some pretty good monitors... 4 grand a pair (there not mine btw).... but, I tend to boost the bass for some reason and it works for me.

I also tend roll-off the instruments from time to time or atleast lower the back end. Most instruments like acoustic guitar boom the mic, heh. Some mic brands design mics to roll off instruments to get rid of the back-end. Thats where the bass guitar or synth fits in to me... It creates thoose near missng freq's. the back bone.

A drum kick shouldnt be too low, unless its designed to carry the track. You gotta understand what your feeling in the track... then build. But to me having analog is a big plus. Manipulation is easier than digital. But in techno, I've heard great digital stuff and it baffles me. I guess your ears are the most important part. Ppl have done great stuff with nothing.

take care dude. think of style first.

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Message 11/47 02-Jun-05 @ 08:17 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

Pongoid

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Do a search on pongoid for threads relating to bass going back a ways, like a year or two at least. I can't remember which one it was off the top of my head, but in the archives I know I've explained this one a couple times. The operative words are "making room in the mix", and "efficiency". Honestly you don't want a tone that hogs up all the energy in your mix. Good luck.

Ape

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Message 12/47 02-Jun-05 @ 09:52 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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i really need help too- ive been experimenting with getting the mid low cracked first- so often i try tweak my bass with a 100hz filter switched in on my mixer and when happy with the character bring the low end back in....

resonant high pass filters with some low mid scooped out with eq with quite hard compression have worked for me but have sometimes produced too low a bass where tyere seems to be a gap between the tune and the bass yet tuning it up an octave amkes it too high- blu heard this in one of my tracks and i can only imagine this would just ruin things at a club- i have a couple of peeps interested in tunes and i wanna make them club ready- (or at least be able to do a cd and a club mix) but am very wary of adding too much- i just try copy the tonal balanace of a club tune i like and hope for the best- unfortunatly with out big club speakers to listen on its impossible to know-

greg

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Message 13/47 03-Jun-05 @ 08:58 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

Dominic

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Thanks for all the input chaps. Cutting at 100hz works superbly. That's exactly what I was looking for. At last...............................horray! Now, where am I going to find my next excuse................

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Message 14/47 03-Jun-05 @ 09:32 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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sorry dom what did you do? was it a high pass or a roll off and what kind of slope- i recently followed a few eq tips which talked about rolling off freqs from drum hits i often found the roll off too steep sounding even at -12/bd..so would be interested to hear which slope you used and how much you took off....

greg

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Message 15/47 03-Jun-05 @ 09:58 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

Dominic

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Hi mate

Well I ended up going with a Logic Lo-Cut @ 100 hz. I tried using a Logic Hi Pass @ 100hz but it makes the bass audio track red line by over 3 db which meant I had to pull the fader down by nearly 4 db. This didn't happen when using the Lo-cut plug (I didn't have to move the fader). Plus I prefered how the Lo-Cut plug sounded. Now I can move the mackie fader up by around-about +4 db and get that phatt, thick sound I was looking for.

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Message 16/47 03-Jun-05 @ 10:35 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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cool ill look into what slope the logic lo-cut plug is using- im not a logic user but do have a copy- this reminds me of a tip i once heard about using this lowcut plug and then using something called 'autofilter' to bring a clear resonance back in below the cut- imma gonna try this when my setup is back together- i for one was having major headroom issues in that my kicks were always balanaced yet took up so much of the tracks headroom i could never compress beats as a whole or anything like that- now realise my kicks just have far too much energy and have been carving the shite outta them.....now if i could just get that daft punk/house bass/bd combo sound ill be happy- played together the two just eat each other!!

greg

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Message 17/47 03-Jun-05 @ 11:32 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

Dominic

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Yeah, I had that problem for ages. I was A/Bing my tracks (as I mixed them) with my favourite tracks of CD recorded into an audio track in Logic. I was pulling my hair out at trying to match the levels of my drums with the drums off the CD tracks. I would end up having the kick too loud and it never sounded like the pro tracks. Then I learnt about limiting via the adaptive limiter in Logic and finally realised how they were getting those sorts of level/volumes to CD.

Now I mix to +3db on my Mackie, push the mix through my Mixmaster, out the Mixmaster and digitally into Logic. Then I wack the Logic Adaptive Limiter over the mix and dither down to 16 bits ready for CD. My tracks sound the same level and have the same punch as commercially available music now.

LIMITING is the key. I wasted 3 years getting depressed about why I couldn't get my tracks sounding phatt like other producers. Stupid of me really. LIMITING is sooo important to the final sound.

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Message 18/47 03-Jun-05 @ 11:55 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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really? thats cool- ive been messing with some tips from breet b here and one from the waves site which shows you how to get maximum volume without resorting to limiting- im gonna have to try this some more- nevere really cracked it-

you mix at +3db?!?!?!? i was always told to stay below 0 so i generally have my kicks between -3 and -6 build around that to have the whole track peaking at just below zero- i still find that the kick is taking up most of the room- so one more q- how much gain reduction are your getting when you limit your mix? if its a case of coaxing say another 6db by limiting the kick and bringing it all back up then i think im on the right track- is this what your aiming to do??? limit your big arse kick down so the rest of the track can come up? im hoping so cos then i think i may have also finally got the hang of it....

ive been in a funk for years too- all production/sound based...always had the ideas but my sound was (and still is in places) so lacking in depth, thickness and sheen....finally got my head round compressing properly and also realised my monitoring set up was all but killing my top end and accueating my mid range and this kick.bass element was the final thing that was getting me (well apart from a particular bass sound) so i cant wait to try this on my new track, ill work as normal and then hope to do what you say afterwards with the waves l1 or l2....

any tunes up? would like to hear some

greg

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Message 19/47 03-Jun-05 @ 01:59 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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However, gently hi passing at 100 seems to clean up my stuff no end.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

what do mean by gently- last time i highpassed anything so high i lost too much bass...are you talking a couple of dbs?

greg

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Message 20/47 03-Jun-05 @ 08:20 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

psylichon

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Let's get our terminology straight, folks.

hi-pass and lo-cut are the same type of filter. There is no dB gain parameter, simply a cutoff point and a slope, and it can never be a boost, only a cut. A "gentle" hi-pass/lo-cut would be 6dB/octave. A "hard" one would be 24dB or more per octave. But even with such a simple definition on paper, I find that many EQ plugins sound quite different at the exact same settings. Experiment.

Shelving filters are similar, but do not have a continuous slope down to inifinite. It will slope below the given frequency (or above for a hi shelf), at a rate according to the Q parameter, to a level defined by the gain parameter. Unlike pass/cut filters, shelving can be either a boost or a cut.

Generally, I like to keep the 50-80Hz clear for the kick, so I'll do a gentle (6dB/oct) locut below 80Hz (sorry influx, there's just not that much useable info down there... you said it yourself, the lowest fundamental on a regular E-bass is 60Hz, you should at least roll off below there). But this is not a hard and fast rule by any means.

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Message 21/47 03-Jun-05 @ 09:41 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Influx

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psy

dont you mix rock mostly? or rather, "real instrument" music?

"not that much usable info"? with breaks and jungle and shit?

nonsense.

40hz on a big system? SHIIIIT.

that area shouldnt be overly active, obviously, but to cut it out almost entirely...I dunno...the pros I know, with tons of releases under their belts would scoff at such a thing

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Message 22/47 04-Jun-05 @ 04:31 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

damballah

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sixty? it's more like fourty one point two but you hear the note at the higher multiples. stick a five string with a low B and guess what ya get.

you're hitting +3 on a mackie and you've used up all the headroom. common trick with mixers with low headroom summing is to mix well below 0 on your meters and pump it with a device that's got better headroom, like your mixmaster.

cheers

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Message 23/47 06-Jun-05 @ 09:35 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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hi-pass and lo-cut are the same type of filter. There is no dB gain parameter, simply a cutoff point and a slope, and it can never be a boost, only a cut. A "gentle" hi-pass/lo-cut would be 6dB/octave. A "hard" one would be 24dB or more per octave.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

so there are different slopes- 6/db/oct to 24/db/oct- thats what i was looking for cos i was thinking the low cutting i was doing with a 12db/oct sl;ope was too much- seems i was doing the right thing- cool

greg

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Message 24/47 06-Jun-05 @ 05:01 PM Edit: 06-Jun-05 | 05:03 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Steve Roughley

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In response to the problems expressed here about getting a heavy, punchy kick to sit nicely with a heavy fat bass and not blow the track's headroom: Obviously you are trying to apply EQ as the solution, which is an essential move... initially. Too much EQ can kill the sounds that you are trying to mix, so try applying a compressor to the bass, using the kick as a sidechain. Basically, all it does, is duck the bass during the kick. Sometimes you need to hammer the bass here. I often have the reduction meter showing up to 12+ db of reduction. I do this with all of my bass-heavy tracks and it works so damned well to clean up the bottom end and really helps in getting a nice tight, punchy relationship between the Kick and the bass.

Stephen.

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Message 25/47 07-Jun-05 @ 08:31 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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nice one steve- ive never been as extreme as -12db on ducking but there are no rules- look forward to having a go...

greg

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Message 26/47 09-Jun-05 @ 09:42 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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Ok any tips for trying to get the bass right for a club system when you dont have a club system to hand, or even a sub for that matter.....there must be at least a coupld of rules for bass in club systems or at least a couple of things you guys stick to when trying to make a club release...esepecially as most of you guys probably dont have a club they can just nip down to.....

im not looking for any magic settings, advice or other esoteric notions that probabbly dont exist but at least so pointers as i feel with what Blu and others have said if i keep mixing my bass the way i do on my monitors its gonna sound shite in a club!!

greg

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Message 27/47 10-Jun-05 @ 06:40 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

psylichon

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how's your car stereo? I would say that's the best poor-man's approximation. Then again, I never really go out to clubs so I have no idear really.

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Message 28/47 10-Jun-05 @ 09:05 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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car stereo is shite- dont really wanna get an amp and sub just for a/bing-

guess its just a case of send it off and hope...

greg

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Message 29/47 10-Jun-05 @ 02:10 PM Edit: 10-Jun-05 | 02:14 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Steve Roughley

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What kind of monitors are you using? If you get a decent set of monitors (we use the Alesis MKII Actives which are dirt cheap but sound awesome) that have a good, clear low end response, you will be able to make sure that the bass sounds tight enough to release. I'm kind of lucky in that my best friend and production partner has residencies at several large clubs, so we can road test the tracks. However, I have noticed that, in general, it is not the bass that we need to tweak, rather the more earsplitting filtered sounds and drums from around 600 to 3000 (we always overdo the EQing on snares for some reason). It would seem that you can get the bass, at least, right on a half decent set of monitors.

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Message 30/47 10-Jun-05 @ 02:33 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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snap- i have a pair of those....i am gonna post a pic of myt new bedroom space at the weekend to try get some advice on best place to put everything- ive until now had one mounted on my kictehn side and the other on the computer desk- i really noticed the difference when i put them on the floor- completely different sound!!

i was speaking to an amercian guy who got taught to mix from some seminal house producer to have the kicks around -6 so you don't rob topo much headroom (rely on mastering to take near to the 0 mark) so am using that as a test ref at the mo- guess its time to go buy myself a nightclub

greg

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Message 31/47 10-Jun-05 @ 06:29 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Influx

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another suggestion:

monitor VERY quietely...almost inaudible. this has helped me a LOT, and I believe it would all but eliminate standing waves, reflections, etc

its a good way to train yourself to listen for the balance between tracks.

works for me

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Message 32/47 11-Jun-05 @ 06:45 AM Edit: 11-Jun-05 | 06:46 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

psylichon

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That's a great suggestion. Anything you can do to minimize the limitations of your room (easily your worst enemy in a mix situation, especially where low end is concerned) would be beneficial.

A serious pair of headphones can also be an indispensable reference when mixing. I find I can judge the lowest octave quite nicely in a pair of Ultrasone HFI-700's.... they're the best I've found. They're slightly hyped in the bass department, but extremely tight. They should show you problems that would arise in a club situation. Highly recommended $250 purchase.

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Message 33/47 11-Jun-05 @ 06:20 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Influx

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in my experience, messing with EQ in headphones has been a bad idea...

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Message 34/47 11-Jun-05 @ 06:51 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

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quote
monitor VERY quietely...almost inaudible

that is a GREAT tip - it's true.... take a brteak, preferably overnight, then come back and as said, really low, tune in over time to the bass-end (well, it works for the whole mix too)

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I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 35/47 11-Jun-05 @ 09:33 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

psylichon

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quote
in my experience, messing with EQ in headphones has been a bad idea...

Agreed, and I don't make most EQ choices this way. Doing levels in headphones is even worse usually. However, I feel choosing things like low rolloff points and slopes in a poorly-tuned room can be much more detrimental than doing it in a tight pair of headphones that you're very familiar with. When I'm mastering, I can either run back and forth between the sweetspot and the corners of the room or put on the Ultrasones when I'm choosing my bass cutoff. Guess which one I choose.

Yes, even professional studios have sonic issues that must be recognized and avoided.

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Message 36/47 12-Jun-05 @ 05:34 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

Influx

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ever try to do a whole mix on em, psy?

my buddy was ravin about some phones...they were TOP DOLLAR tho...said he'd rather mix on those if he could...

crazy.

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Message 37/47 12-Jun-05 @ 10:54 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

milan

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*butts in*

yeah, let me third the the idea about listening at barely audible levels. about the only way i can be sure about what i'm doing in my room.

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Message 38/47 12-Jun-05 @ 12:55 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Steve Roughley

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Even better, is to leave the room you are mixing in and listen from outside. I've found that this can really help to identify trouble spots in your mix. Things stand out that you hadn't noticed before.

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Message 39/47 12-Jun-05 @ 04:06 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

milan

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so to summarise, if i may:

listening at barely audible levels, listening in the corner, listening from another room, listening at different levels on as many sources as you can, taking breaks every few hours or whenever you are unsure about what you are doing, and comparing your work to a similar yet well produced track from another person are all essential to getting the mix right.

any other tips for "DT quick'n'dirty guide to listening"?

another thing is to actually GO AND DO IT, not go "yeah yeah" and go back to what you were doing before!

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Message 40/47 12-Jun-05 @ 05:52 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

psylichon

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always check in mono. A-B is revealing too, but I rarely go through the trouble.

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Message 41/47 12-Jun-05 @ 08:46 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

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quote
about the only way i can be sure about what i'm doing in my room.

hey ever tried shelving off some bass wqith a send & bandpass and adding a touch of room-verb to that... hmmm...

___________________________________

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Message 42/47 13-Jun-05 @ 10:40 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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thanks guys- my mate and i had the choice between two bedrooms in the new gaff- yup i ended up with the small one so will be def trying all you said to get the best out of my room/monitor combo....i only really use phones for details and stuff- sometimes what sounds good bass wise outside sounds almost scopped and phasey inside my phones but ive yet to get a decent pai- so never rely on them

i like the idea of very low i used to try that to check balance but think ill work more like that...

its just an ever increasing circle sometimes....repeatedly adjusting bass, then going back to top mid cos its too cutting, then roll of bottom mid as its too harsh, then rebalance- rinse repeat etc etc-

greg

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Message 43/47 13-Jun-05 @ 08:09 PM - RE: bloody bass.................

Influx

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another point that just cant be emphasized enough is to pick appropriate sounds from the start. dont load up certain areas in the frequency spectrum, and dont try to force sounds together. sometimes its just not gonna work and will give you hours of frustration.

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Message 44/47 17-Jun-05 @ 12:37 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

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that is SOOOOOOOOOOOOO true, and a great tip for noobs - Sure, dont waste time trying to fit a round peg in a square hole, if it doesnt work, go with the flow more mebbe and let what comes out come out... mind you, other times you can mess for ages and come up with stuff.. i like to save, tweak, save (with different filename versions - like songX1:songX2:songX3: etc) - Each version has a slightly or even plenty different bass tweak... it's good to save as you go and compare later.. it's so easty to loose something when you go off on one messing & tweaking.

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Message 45/47 17-Jun-05 @ 04:07 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

psylichon

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Yeah, one of the strangest thing I've ever heard from a synthesist while recording is "that sounds awesome... can't wait to hear it with some EQ!" People seem to forget that EQ and compression were designed as correctional tools rather than audio "enhancers". Now, it can be argued that compression can be used much more creatively, not simply as level management, and this is true. But for EQ... when you're making the sounds from scratch anyway, why not 'EQ' at the source? Synth filters are often more musical than plugin EQ's anyway.

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Message 46/47 17-Jun-05 @ 09:31 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

monkeybasket2001

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one thing i do find with synths- spesh some particular synths is that they are so middy that i almost always eq them- so sometimes i do think that sounds nice but needs q'ing...makes sense though- i think its all to easy tos end every channel through eq and compression cos your convinced it will improve things- it does for me but thats more down to problems at source!!

greg

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Message 47/47 17-Jun-05 @ 11:48 AM - RE: bloody bass.................

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quote
it does for me but thats more down to problems at source!!

heh

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