the long route..................

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Subject: the long route..................

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Original Message 1/40 07-Oct-05 @ 10:11 AM - the long route..................

Dominic

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Im such a prat. Just reduced all my delta 410 soundcard levels (within the control panel) to consumer -10db. Now -10db on a Logic instrument track matches -10db on my mackie desk. Its a bloody revelation I can set my kick at 0 db, my snare at -2db, bass at -10db, guitar at -15db, etc and my tracks actually sound right!!!! Track now peaking at +3db on my desk.

Before I had the 410 control levels up at full cos I was trying to get the best signal to noise ratio but when I burnt stuff to CD to listen on my stereo my stuff sounded too chunky, no dynamics and not spacey enough when compared to my favourite producers. Now its like another world!!!!!!

Im a proper fool. My friend told me that the guy who now runs Juno did something similar he gave up trying to produce cos he couldnt understand why his tunes never sounded pro enough. After 4 years of trying a bloke walked into his studio and told him his speakers were out of phase.

My question is can I find something in Logic that will give me a test tone so I can (exactly) match 0db on my instrument track to 0db on my Mackie? I would have though the Osc plug would but maybe it needs an input signal to work.

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Message 2/40 07-Oct-05 @ 12:13 PM - RE: the long route..................

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set a synth to a sine wave and put in single note @ 1k to play in a continuous loop (roughly note C5) - however, i'm SURE there is downloadable test tones out there or a simple TT osc plugin

lol about the speaker phase - yeah... a 'producer' lol

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I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 3/40 07-Oct-05 @ 04:00 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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tut tut dominic....actually it took me a while to get my head round gain staging (hardwarewise- so aint as complex as software) but once i did i found it made a lot of difference...also a/bing against tracks to match kick levels etc so you can build the mix froma solid static foundation

greg

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Message 4/40 07-Oct-05 @ 04:01 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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ah but doing so didnt pro up my tracks too much- mayhe i ened some bloke to come round and look at the phase of my speakers

greg

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Message 5/40 07-Oct-05 @ 05:19 PM - RE: the long route..................

Dominic

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That's funny Greg.

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Message 6/40 08-Oct-05 @ 02:44 AM - RE: the long route..................

psylichon

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I'm finding gain staging in the box is even more important to your final mix than I ever thought before. There is a "sweet spot" for most plugins, and it's usually way lower in level than most people cut their tracks. Now I'm a fanatic to make sure nothing is hitting any plugin in my session too hot, even if I can't hear it clipping, because those plugs need their headroom to work properly and I find that running the whole show quieter really tightens and clears up everything.

Try cutting your tracks with more headroom (i.e. not as loud), keep their faders lower in the software, then using some sort of digital gain at the end of your chain to make up for any headroom in the final mix. This is how 24-bit systems are designed to be used, yet people still print their signals as hot as they would with analog. Not good.

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Message 7/40 08-Oct-05 @ 12:20 PM - RE: the long route..................

milan

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"he gave up trying to produce cos he couldnt understand why his tunes never sounded pro enough. After 4 years of trying a bloke walked into his studio and told him his speakers were out of phase."

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Message 8/40 10-Oct-05 @ 01:38 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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That's funny Greg.

>>>>>>>>>>

well yes and no...it will cease to be funny when i cant get of my mixes to work- at the mo i think its something im doing...

ive finally pulled my finger out and set my gear up again- will post pics tomorrow-

the space i have now is smaller so i would def appreciate any critisms on the speaker placement and ideas on fixing it without moving them...

greg

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Message 9/40 10-Oct-05 @ 03:18 PM - RE: the long route..................

Dominic

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What you mean in terms of the mix balance/dynamics or more the sound of the instruments?

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Message 10/40 11-Oct-05 @ 09:31 AM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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mix balance but thats related to sound- ive documented this before (although hoped some of my old prob was down to working space- or lack of) but my mixes seem to be very middy- i try and mix them the best i can but i find its the thumping bass drum balance that often cocks me up- i try and get it as hot as possible to match the club sound without ruining my headroom but when i do this i find it hard to balance the rest effectively with it sounding rather middy, when i dont go for the slammin bass drum the mix is easier to handle (although i struggle with top end sheen on mid-rnage based instruments- story for another day) but obviously is lacking in low end thump...

ill post some pics of where it will all be now...one question though, as ive got to the trouble of getting my speakers separated from the stand (usingf mounting screws) should i not put gear on top of them? i ask as im running out of room

greg

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Message 11/40 11-Oct-05 @ 11:41 AM - RE: the long route..................

Domimic

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Greg I wouldn't put anything ontop of the speaker. Plus are you trying to match your kick drum against a kick drum in a mastered track? This doesn't work - I know. I wasted months before I realised. What works for me is having my kick drum peaking at 0db and my snare peaking at -2db. Bass at -10db and guitar at -15 db. These are just rough, starting figures but I rarely drift from these settings by 2db up or down. Whole track now peaks at +3db on the Mackie metres. This is before limiting.

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Message 12/40 11-Oct-05 @ 12:03 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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no not to a mastered track just to get the initial levels to build a foundation from...for me with house and those dance floor styles it starts with the kick so i like to get it as pounding as poss but with headroom to spare- matching it exactly to a mastered track would give me nohting as everyone seems to limit their tracks up to -.3db...what im finding is the bigger (and more convincing) i make the kick the worse the rest of the tune sounds, ive tried ducking, side chaining etc

greg

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Message 13/40 11-Oct-05 @ 12:14 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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Greg I wouldn't put anything ontop of the speaker.
>>>>>>>>

bugger! you'll see why when i post my pic that i was hoping you would say it doesn't matter (despite me knowing in my heart that it does- damn i invest too much in what other pros say!!

)

ill find somewhere else for my bits to go.

i have my kicks peak around -3db (bare in mind i mix outside and not in a pc) usually lower, i then build around that with the bass probably around -6db (these are wild guesstimates- based on my last track i can remember) but essentially my tracks dont go above 0db...this is matched inside my pc (im just using soundforge- 24 bit recording) where i ensure nothing is clipping- its often looking at these more precise meters that i will go back and tame wild peaks which sneak through...

once that is all done i try and coax a little more loudness out- not to squash the whole thing but to use the old trick of limiting the kick to bring the overall volume up....i experiment with L2 using a -0.3db max output limit....

this sometimes actually makes my tracks too loud but most of the time works very well...i prefer not to squash to much of the mix as a whole and as the kicks are louder than anything else it only generally compresses the kicks...

seems everything i try gets me nearer to the sound i want but takes me further away from what ive already achieved.....

the problem im finding with using this technique is that my tracks are often quite middy and harsh where the kicks seems to honk through the mix, yet i bring them down and the whole track just doesnt thump...

greg

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Message 14/40 11-Oct-05 @ 02:06 PM - RE: the long route..................

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what speakers/amp?

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Message 15/40 11-Oct-05 @ 02:32 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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well it was a samson servo 170....but ive pwaned that as i picked up one of those t-amps and much preferred it...so its now a sonic impact t-amp (the portable jobby but running off mains) and the speakers (monitors k, monitors

) are alesis monitor 1s (passive)

ive made the effort to bring the monitors about 1 foot away from the back wall but as its an enclosure ive set up in it means they are quite close to the sides:

im hoping that doesn't affect them too much!

greg

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Message 16/40 11-Oct-05 @ 02:33 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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oh ive put a shitty diagram in the link
greg

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Message 17/40 11-Oct-05 @ 03:56 PM Edit: 11-Oct-05 | 04:07 PM - RE: the long route..................

beds

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no you haven't

[edit]
oh yes you have. nice picture.

you know that's a terrible place to put your speakers don't you. what's that in the left corner?

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Message 18/40 11-Oct-05 @ 04:42 PM - RE: the long route..................

Dominic

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Is that to scale?

Seriously though aren't you s'possed to have monitors at least 2 foot away from any walls?

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Message 19/40 11-Oct-05 @ 04:50 PM - RE: the long route..................

Dominic

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Also Greg the gents here told me to use 0.1db on the limiter output clip. Plus computer music magazine did the same thing in their "sound like Royksopp" article last month. So it must be right..........

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Message 20/40 12-Oct-05 @ 08:59 AM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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you know that's a terrible place to put your speakers don't you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>

beds it says "1 foot"..i can get 1 foot separation from the back but not the sides...is there anything i could do to lessen the absorption of sound through those walls?....i dont really have anywhere else to put my gear but dont wanna spend all my time compensating for the fact my speakers are too close to the walls..

dom, im guessing its not a great place no- i thought it was 1 foot away not two but ill take your word for it- i def cant achieve the 2 foot separation- i dont have the room,

-0.1db!! oh no it gets louder!!

greg

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Message 21/40 12-Oct-05 @ 10:23 AM - RE: the long route..................

milan

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quote
Dominic wrote:

computer music magazine did the same thing in their sound like Royksopp article last month. So it must be right

thats where we get our tips from, innit! the whole "dont read FM/CM" smear campaign was just a trick to leave all the good stuff to us pros!

anyway, Greg... a) you *could* leave your kick be louder than the rest too, no? i have plenty of 4/4 tracks where kicks actually is louder (peakwise too) then the rest, or b) compress it some more to slam the peaks down.

and also... why dont you lot NEVER post any examples of your tracks so we know what your actual problems are???

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Message 22/40 12-Oct-05 @ 12:58 PM - RE: the long route..................

Dominic

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I've only been on DT 5 years without posting a tune..........I just talk a good game. I'm stupid cos I want to post spmething that is good rather than average/acceptable. Too anal I know. I've got quite a few finished tunes on my harddrive (like everyone) but they're just not good enough.

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Message 23/40 12-Oct-05 @ 01:36 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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my post didn't appear for some reason:

i have posted one track before but that was a while back and done on another system so not really representative

im looking for some beats i could paste up now...

i think in terms of the kick im just gonna play safe and get the tune as a whole sounding good- if the kick doesn't thump ill have to live with it...

greg

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Message 24/40 12-Oct-05 @ 02:36 PM - RE: the long route..................

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dude, never put speakers in a alcove/hole - can we see a map of the whole room inc door & any windows, and with proportions in imperial feet

also, the wall material (plaster & brick, stud walling etc), whatever each wall is made of

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Message 25/40 12-Oct-05 @ 03:04 PM - RE: the long route..................

milan

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sorry Dom... wasnt really out to get you or anything, but posting a tune on DT wont kill you innit

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Message 26/40 12-Oct-05 @ 03:31 PM - RE: the long route..................

Dominic

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no but it would dent my already fragile ego.................

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Message 27/40 12-Oct-05 @ 03:36 PM - RE: the long route..................

milan

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sheesh... yeah, like all those other newbies we laughed at on this forum.

"what you mean your tracks are not as good as BT's???"

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Message 28/40 12-Oct-05 @ 03:52 PM Edit: 12-Oct-05 | 03:53 PM - RE: the long route..................

beds

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cyfri2.mp3

i bet bt never did one this good

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Message 29/40 12-Oct-05 @ 04:18 PM - RE: the long route..................

milan

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lol... is that the one about a strapping welsh laddie running into a lost baby sheep in the woods then?

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Message 30/40 12-Oct-05 @ 04:25 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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ok im convinced, ill take photos of my room and measure it up tonight....

cheers
greg

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Message 31/40 13-Oct-05 @ 10:03 AM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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right measured the room and took some phots just need to get them off my camera.

the room is 11.4 ft long and around 10.2 ft wide- when i moved in ui tried oputting my bed in the alcove- it was like 1 inch out- gutted! wall 1 is an internal wall- room on the otherside, wall 5 is a mmain wall onto the outside, wall 2 connects to my neighbour so is a party wall, wall 3 is an internal wall and so is wall 4. dont know what materials these walls are made off but am guessing the outside ones are brick and plaster

due to the furniture at the time i put the gear there and my wardrobe at the other end, its been like that ever since...

i do take your advice very seriously and will move everything to wall 1 where my wardrobe and desk is...it will take a while but if you're convinced the alcove is a bad idea so am i....

therefore im going to try and set the gear up so the monitors are a foot away from the wall and at unequal distances from either side wall, put the acoustic foam on the back and side walls and move all that furniture into the alcove....

if anyone has any more comments please add....

cheers

greg

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Message 32/40 13-Oct-05 @ 12:45 PM - RE: the long route..................

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you want your speakers there really, so i guess it's time to dump the bed and get a futon which you can roll-up - why waste all that space. i spose you could leave the gear where it is and put the speakers on brackets, or move the gear and put the cupboard & desk in the alcove or dump the cupboard

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Message 33/40 13-Oct-05 @ 01:19 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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cool, i think as i cant put the bed anywhere (and wont sleep on a futon- i like comfort

) ill just swap the gear for the cupboard and put it like shown.

hopefully i wont have too many monitoring issues with it set this way- id rather not have the speaker facing a window but ive run out of options...

cheers

greg

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Message 34/40 13-Oct-05 @ 03:28 PM - RE: the long route..................

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dude, a futon is WAY WAY more comfortable and better for your back... and if the truth be known, way better for shagging on than a bed if you dont use the stupid wooden frame (a western add-on, Japanes dont use a wooden frame.)

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Message 35/40 13-Oct-05 @ 03:53 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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iyo...

i slept on a futon for the first month of moving in sans frame and although it wasn't that hard it wasn't that comfy either...believe me ive tried as i liked the idea of rolling a bed up but i dont like futons and they seem to be the best and most comfy of the fold away bed range...

greg

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Message 36/40 13-Oct-05 @ 04:07 PM - RE: the long route..................

Dominic

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ahahah. This is cool.

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Message 37/40 13-Oct-05 @ 04:14 PM - RE: the long route..................

milan

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heheh... "what futon for..."

or you could just get on with it. make music for fun until you move into a better space or something...

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Message 38/40 13-Oct-05 @ 04:25 PM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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i do make music for fun, having monitoring problems wont stop me doing that but ive been doing this for 3 years and wanna step my game up, i dont plan to move any time soon as ive only been here 6 months- so am stuck here for good but at the same time want my tunes to sound more pro...you can forgive me that at least....perhaps i should have got frustrated like the guy from juno records did and give up and sell off rather than address what might be causing the problem....

greg

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Message 39/40 13-Oct-05 @ 10:32 PM - RE: the long route..................

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oh well different strokes... i cant sleep in a bed really any more unless it's really super-solid. If i stay in a hotel i sleep on the floor

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Message 40/40 14-Oct-05 @ 08:46 AM - RE: the long route..................

monkeybasket2001

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^^
hippy....

i think my proposed idea is the best compromise- cheers

greg

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