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Forums - Music techology
Subject: Levels and all that...
Viewing all 11 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2
Original Message 1/11 30-Sep-06 @ 06:53 PM - Levels and all that...
Ok, so this is doing my head in all this metering stuff.
I'm in the process of a command module overhaul and would like to get
everything to work at it's best possible.
Here's my set-up:
pentium II 350 Mhz running Cubase vst/32 5, Delta 66
Phonic Mixer with 4 buss.
Each buss is sent to one of the 1/4 inch input of the Delta.
Delta out 1 & 2 are are respectively taking Chanel 15 and 16
of the Phonic mixer routed to main wich feeds a pair of Alesis
M1 Active.
I don't want to use the Phonic for mixing, once in the box, the
signal will stay there.
So the question is: How should i set up in the Delta Control panel ?
+4, consumer, -10 ? both for output and input
Running at +4 all the way, i find that recorded signal, once played back
is extremely low, barely moves the channel meter, even if it danced in the
yellow while inputing, is this normal ? Do i need to raise the material prior
to mixing or monitor louder ?
thanks for any tips
I'm in the process of a command module overhaul and would like to get
everything to work at it's best possible.
Here's my set-up:
pentium II 350 Mhz running Cubase vst/32 5, Delta 66
Phonic Mixer with 4 buss.
Each buss is sent to one of the 1/4 inch input of the Delta.
Delta out 1 & 2 are are respectively taking Chanel 15 and 16
of the Phonic mixer routed to main wich feeds a pair of Alesis
M1 Active.
I don't want to use the Phonic for mixing, once in the box, the
signal will stay there.
So the question is: How should i set up in the Delta Control panel ?
+4, consumer, -10 ? both for output and input
Running at +4 all the way, i find that recorded signal, once played back
is extremely low, barely moves the channel meter, even if it danced in the
yellow while inputing, is this normal ? Do i need to raise the material prior
to mixing or monitor louder ?
thanks for any tips
Message 2/11 01-Oct-06 @ 11:55 AM - RE: Levels and all that...
well then use -10dBv since thats obviously what your mixer uses.
+4 basicaly means that your soundcard will expect much higher levels to be sent to it, hence the low output.
+4 basicaly means that your soundcard will expect much higher levels to be sent to it, hence the low output.
Message 3/11 01-Oct-06 @ 05:56 PM - RE: Levels and all that...
well, i don't know, it's suppose to output +4 this mixer.
But, i've found out some good stuff searching the trheads.
I also figured what that INS socket was for, i thought it meant Instrument, Doh !!
Got myself an insert cable, so i'll finally be able to patch the compressor properly. I guess i'll be able to know now what all that compression stuff is about.
Also found out that the sub out go through some summing amplifier process wich makes them
less hot than the direct outs, wich i will try using with my brand new balanced cable. That's another thing i found out. A stereo cable isn't neccesarely balanced. Supposedly you get slightly hotter output through balanced, and since the direct out on the mixer is and the input on my delta is, i might win some gain there.
we'll see, errr i mean hear
thanks for the reply
But, i've found out some good stuff searching the trheads.
I also figured what that INS socket was for, i thought it meant Instrument, Doh !!
Got myself an insert cable, so i'll finally be able to patch the compressor properly. I guess i'll be able to know now what all that compression stuff is about.
Also found out that the sub out go through some summing amplifier process wich makes them
less hot than the direct outs, wich i will try using with my brand new balanced cable. That's another thing i found out. A stereo cable isn't neccesarely balanced. Supposedly you get slightly hotter output through balanced, and since the direct out on the mixer is and the input on my delta is, i might win some gain there.
we'll see, errr i mean hear
thanks for the reply
Message 4/11 01-Oct-06 @ 08:40 PM - RE: Levels and all that...
quote
well, i don't know, it's suppose to output +4 this mixer.
well, i don't know, it's suppose to output +4 this mixer.
maybe you're not using balanced cables. you know, the "stereo" cable with two rings on it
quote
A stereo cable isn't neccesarely balanced
A stereo cable isn't neccesarely balanced
no, of course it is. thats the same TRS cable -> earth + 2 contacts on it.
good luck
Message 5/11 01-Oct-06 @ 09:31 PM - RE: Levels and all that...
diagrams in the mixer manual seems to contadict that.
They show both balanced and unbalanced.
The unbalanced stero jack goes like this:
tip to tip
ring to sleeve
wheras the balanced stereo jack goes
tip to tip
ring to ring
sleeve to sleeve
unless there is something that i'm not getting (wich is a realistic probability, being me)
p.s: i have also found out this about my mixer, been pulling my hair out with this for a while.
In most respects, the MR2443 behaves quite conventionally, though there's something a little odd about the gain structure. Normally, if you PFL a signal and then compare its level with the normal mixer output, with both channel and output faders set to unit gain, the level will be the same. Here though, the mixer output seems to be 10dB below the expected PFL level, which means you need to use some of the available gain on the faders to restore the level. This may be just a buss headroom issue, but it's something you need to be aware of.
They show both balanced and unbalanced.
The unbalanced stero jack goes like this:
tip to tip
ring to sleeve
wheras the balanced stereo jack goes
tip to tip
ring to ring
sleeve to sleeve
unless there is something that i'm not getting (wich is a realistic probability, being me)
p.s: i have also found out this about my mixer, been pulling my hair out with this for a while.
In most respects, the MR2443 behaves quite conventionally, though there's something a little odd about the gain structure. Normally, if you PFL a signal and then compare its level with the normal mixer output, with both channel and output faders set to unit gain, the level will be the same. Here though, the mixer output seems to be 10dB below the expected PFL level, which means you need to use some of the available gain on the faders to restore the level. This may be just a buss headroom issue, but it's something you need to be aware of.
Message 6/11 02-Oct-06 @ 08:38 AM - RE: Levels and all that...
quote
The unbalanced stero jack goes like this:
tip to tip
ring to sleeve
The unbalanced stero jack goes like this:
tip to tip
ring to sleeve
thats not stereo, thats just unbalanced-> remember, one contact is always ground wire, leaving just one more to carry the signal!
Message 7/11 02-Oct-06 @ 06:18 PM - RE: Levels and all that...
What resolution are your meters set to in Cubase (if there is such an option)
You'd be surprised how low an analog signal that is properly gain-staged will look on a properly-calibrated D/A converter. Most are cal'ed to -18 nominal operating level. That means if your analog front end is riding at its nominal levels, your signal will ride below -18 dB on your digital meters! (in pro-tools land this is only about halfway up the meter... and there is no resolution adjustment for the meters there) Peaks of course may go higher, but that's the headroom benefit of cutting at 24-bit (you ARE cutting 24 bit right? You should if you can). Won't go into the math, but you're not losing resolution cutting this low at 24-bit. In fact, that's how the system is designed to be used. Pushing the signal hotter means you're running your analog front end hotter than it's supposed to be run (which can be cool with cool preamps, but no offense... probably not with yours).
So how hot are you trying to cut here?
You'd be surprised how low an analog signal that is properly gain-staged will look on a properly-calibrated D/A converter. Most are cal'ed to -18 nominal operating level. That means if your analog front end is riding at its nominal levels, your signal will ride below -18 dB on your digital meters! (in pro-tools land this is only about halfway up the meter... and there is no resolution adjustment for the meters there) Peaks of course may go higher, but that's the headroom benefit of cutting at 24-bit (you ARE cutting 24 bit right? You should if you can). Won't go into the math, but you're not losing resolution cutting this low at 24-bit. In fact, that's how the system is designed to be used. Pushing the signal hotter means you're running your analog front end hotter than it's supposed to be run (which can be cool with cool preamps, but no offense... probably not with yours).
So how hot are you trying to cut here?
Message 8/11 02-Oct-06 @ 09:13 PM - RE: Levels and all that...
quote
milan wrote:
thats not stereo, thats just unbalanced-> remember, one contact is always ground wire, leaving just one more to carry the signal!
milan wrote:
quote
The unbalanced stero jack goes like this:
tip to tip
ring to sleeve
The unbalanced stero jack goes like this:
tip to tip
ring to sleeve
thats not stereo, thats just unbalanced-> remember, one contact is always ground wire, leaving just one more to carry the signal!
So basically, when i buy a stereo lead in a shop i can be confident that it's balanced ?
psy: Oh, i was set at 32bit truetape
I've checked things with this precious info you've given and i find the meters in cubase peak at
-12 when meters on the board peak at +10. So i could still be recording quieter and still get all resolution ? That's a shitload of headroom. I think i understand now why i was never able to put many different instruments into the same track.
many many thanks guys.
it might be a small step to the other guy, but it's one fucking giant leap to me
Message 9/11 03-Oct-06 @ 12:46 AM - RE: Levels and all that...
quote
nutoniom wrote:i find the meters in cubase peak at
-12 when meters on the board peak at +10. So i could still be recording quieter and still get all resolution ?
nutoniom wrote:i find the meters in cubase peak at
-12 when meters on the board peak at +10. So i could still be recording quieter and still get all resolution ?
That makes perfect sense since +10 on your board outs means 6 dB over nominal (+4), and if your D/A's are cal'ed to -18, then -12 would be also be 6 dB hotter. Welcome to unity gain, my friend! Keep your soundcard at +4 then.
And I wouldn't stress the -18 thing too much... just set your analog front end for whatever gain stage sounds best and don't be cranking your pre more just to get the level up, ya know? As long as your signal isn't floating SIGNIFICANTLY below -18 in your DAW, you're not losing any resolution. And you will also not overload your plugins or your digital sum, resulting in much cleaner, clearer, and punchier in the box mixes. Like you said, if you're trying to do a large mix, if you cut hot you're gonna have to pull down faders on individual channels anyway or else you're smashing your mix buss (and whether or not that reduces resolution depends on your DAW). And besides, raising the analog gain that much is generally just raising your noise floor... super-quiet pro studios with super clean gear on a great day has maybe 90 dB noise floor to nominal. a 24-bit system has a theoretical dynamic range of 144 dB! Blah blah blah...
In PT land, pulling down the master fader is mathematically identical to pulling down all the channel faders feeding it. I generally do not cut hot, have my channel faders at unity, and my master fader down -6dB or more. Don't push a digital mix bus even close to the reds... it's not analog. Then I'll put a compressor or L2 or something on the master buss and makeup whatever gain I need to there. As a result, my ITB mixes do not sound ITB, if I may be so bold
Message 10/11 03-Oct-06 @ 02:38 AM - RE: Levels and all that...
quote
psylichon wrote:
Welcome to unity gain, my friend!
psylichon wrote:
Welcome to unity gain, my friend!
Eh, feels like the doors went swoooshhh and i just walked on the deck, getting my first glimpse at deep space.
Thank you SO much
gonna go play pinhead now
Message 11/11 03-Oct-06 @ 10:12 AM - RE: Levels and all that...
yeah it's a bit of a freak out eh when you first record something and the meter hardly seems to be registering on the DAW channel
quote
As a result, my ITB mixes do not sound ITB, if I may be so bold
As a result, my ITB mixes do not sound ITB, if I may be so bold
___________________________________
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