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Forums - Music techology
Subject: Why and when do you need a patchbay?
Viewing all 4 messages - View by pages of 10: 1
Original Message 1/4 17-Mar-98 @ 11:03 PM - Why and when do you need a patchbay?
I now have a drum machine and before I buy a mixer I would like to make sure that I couldn't use a soundcard with a built in mixer like the new Yamaha Factory Card.
Because the keyboard and drum mod. is midi and my midi interface has only 1 in/out I would have to buy a midiman with 2 in/outs. But then how would the drum machine be heard? My keyboard is using the amps R/L ins.. By the way, are there amps with more than one R/L input? So lets say you've totally convinced me I need an outboard mixer, so I go out and buy how many channels, well lets see, 8 for audio, 16 for midi, and at least 3 for drums.LOL no I don't think I have that kind of money for all those channels. But then I'm reduced to combining tracks, and I don't really want to do that until the song is finished. So what do you guys do? Will the drum machine midi in/out plug into the mixer ? Should I keep the keyboard plugged into my midi interface ? And the analog outs of the drum machine plug into the mixer with the analog outs of the keyboard, then the analog outs of the mixer go to the amp?
Thanks eveyone for helping me figure out how to hook all of this up. Oh yeah, and where does a patchbay come into play, I'm almost afraid to ask.LOL
Because the keyboard and drum mod. is midi and my midi interface has only 1 in/out I would have to buy a midiman with 2 in/outs. But then how would the drum machine be heard? My keyboard is using the amps R/L ins.. By the way, are there amps with more than one R/L input? So lets say you've totally convinced me I need an outboard mixer, so I go out and buy how many channels, well lets see, 8 for audio, 16 for midi, and at least 3 for drums.LOL no I don't think I have that kind of money for all those channels. But then I'm reduced to combining tracks, and I don't really want to do that until the song is finished. So what do you guys do? Will the drum machine midi in/out plug into the mixer ? Should I keep the keyboard plugged into my midi interface ? And the analog outs of the drum machine plug into the mixer with the analog outs of the keyboard, then the analog outs of the mixer go to the amp?
Thanks eveyone for helping me figure out how to hook all of this up. Oh yeah, and where does a patchbay come into play, I'm almost afraid to ask.LOL
Message 2/4 17-Mar-98 @ 11:05 PM - Why and when do you need a patchbay?
I now have a drum machine and before I buy a mixer I would like to make sure that I couldn't use a soundcard with a built in mixer like the new Yamaha Factory Card.
Because the keyboard and drum mod. is midi and my midi interface has only 1 in/out I would have to buy a midiman with 2 in/outs. But then how would the drum machine be heard? My keyboard is using the amps R/L ins.. By the way, are there amps with more than one R/L input? So lets say you've totally convinced me I need an outboard mixer, so I go out and buy how many channels, well lets see, 8 for audio, 16 for midi, and at least 3 for drums.LOL no I don't think I have that kind of money for all those channels. But then I'm reduced to combining tracks, and I don't really want to do that until the song is finished. So what do you guys do? Will the drum machine midi in/out plug into the mixer ? Should I keep the keyboard plugged into my midi interface ? And the analog outs of the drum machine plug into the mixer with the analog outs of the keyboard, then the analog outs of the mixer go to the amp?
Thanks eveyone for helping me figure out how to hook all of this up. Oh yeah, and where does a patchbay come into play, I'm almost afraid to ask.LOL
Because the keyboard and drum mod. is midi and my midi interface has only 1 in/out I would have to buy a midiman with 2 in/outs. But then how would the drum machine be heard? My keyboard is using the amps R/L ins.. By the way, are there amps with more than one R/L input? So lets say you've totally convinced me I need an outboard mixer, so I go out and buy how many channels, well lets see, 8 for audio, 16 for midi, and at least 3 for drums.LOL no I don't think I have that kind of money for all those channels. But then I'm reduced to combining tracks, and I don't really want to do that until the song is finished. So what do you guys do? Will the drum machine midi in/out plug into the mixer ? Should I keep the keyboard plugged into my midi interface ? And the analog outs of the drum machine plug into the mixer with the analog outs of the keyboard, then the analog outs of the mixer go to the amp?
Thanks eveyone for helping me figure out how to hook all of this up. Oh yeah, and where does a patchbay come into play, I'm almost afraid to ask.LOL
Message 3/4 18-Mar-98 @ 08:47 PM - RE: Why and when do you need a patchbay?
The way you're talking about (mixing?) MIDI and audio channels has me a little confused so excuse me if I start at the top...
At its simplest, MIDI data describes how an instrument should play - note values, velocities etc. Upon receiving note data a MIDI instrument will (should) play the relevant sounds which will be fed to the audio outs on the instrument.
There are therefore two approaches to digital recording of MIDI equipped instruments:
1. Record the MIDI data on a sequencer. So to play what you have "recorded" you play the MIDI data back to the MIDI instruments. The instruments in turn reproduce the sounds - how many instruments and how many audio outputs are being used on those instruments determining how many audio channels need to be mixed.
2. Don't worry about the MIDI - record the audio on your sequencer/HD recording package. Each instrument plays and its audio output goes to the PC soundcard. The PC records all the sound, thus to replay the performance the PC/soundcard internally mixes the sounds and outputs to its audio outputs.
MIDI data is quite compact, it takes maybe less than 6 numbers to tell a MIDI keyboard to play a note, how hard and for how long. Digitally recording sound on the other hand uses a lot of space tens of thousands of numbers for every second recorded. It takes more PC processor power to "mix" to sounds, whereas practically no processing is needed to "mix" MIDI data - the data is just sent to the instruments and they each create the sounds they've been told to, but the sounds do need to be recombined, i.e. a mixer.
OPTIONS
1. Record MIDI
Pros
+ Doesn't take much memory space or processing power.
+ You can edit the data - so you can easily change the note lengths or the sounds after the recording.
Cons
- You need to have enough instruments to recreate your performance/recording.
- You need to mix the audio outputs (and you also have to manually reconfigure your mixer settings and audio routings to work on an old track).
2. Digitally record sound
Pros
+ Captures the actual sound of the recording - you can edit this later.
+ You can do things to the recorded sound that MIDI data cannot tell you instruments to do. Furthermore this is done in software, which is very often cheaper than getting more hardware.
+ The signal processing is done digitally, it is therefore practically immune to degradation.
+ If your aiming to distribute your music on CD you're already most of the way there.
+ You could get away with fewer instruments because having recorded an instrument playing one part you can use it again to play another and another - you don’t need the instrument to replay all the recorded sounds simultaneously.
Cons
- It needs a powerful PC, with lots of memory and lots of hard disk space. (or expensive dedicated hardware).
- If you want to work on a lot of different tracks at different times you'll need even more space.
- To change the original sound on the synth you will need to re-record the sound. (Edits on the audio is more like an effect than a change to the synthesis method used.)
Now because neither of these recording methods is quite ideal, a modern hard disk recording enabled sequencer will allow you to use both of these techniques as fits your needs. The software may say each part is using a "channel", but that may be MIDI or it may be audio - it won’t be both.
But whatever you do there will be no MIDI going to your mixing desk. (It may be possible to have a MIDI controlled digital mixing desk but the MIDI will be used to tell the mixing desk how to set levels etc… not for carrying sound.)
Something else on the MIDI/audio channels thing. A midi cable carries 16 "channels" worth of midi data (in one direction), what this means is that the cable can talk to 16 different MIDI (errr…) "sound sources" I guess. That is, if you have two mono-timberal synths then they will each use only one MIDI channel, if you have a 16 part multi-timberal synth then it could be listening to all 16 MIDI channels at the same time and producing different sounds as a result of messages on each.
Timbrality=(potential) MIDI channel consumption. But in audio channel terms, your two mono synths may each have a stereo out (total 4 audio channels), whereas your 16 part multi-timberal synth _may_ only have a stereo out, meaning that all 16 sounds (one per MIDI channel) are being mixed inside the synth. Alternatively a 16 part multi synth may have a couple of extra (audio) sub-outputs, so maybe 16 MIDI channels are triggering 16 sounds mixed to 4 audio outputs.
A crude way out with only two sound sources, is to pan the sounds in each source (say) hard left, then send the left output of each instrument to the left and right amp inputs respectively. If your instruments are multi-timberal you can probably set their levels with the level settings on you MIDI sequencer - that is the sequencer will tell the synth how loud to play each MIDI channel in the synth's mixing stage.
Amps with more than two inputs (are we talking about bi-wirable Hi-Fi type amps?), I don't know, maybe... but remember (I always hear that) instruments can potentially produce levels that your Hi-Fi wont like.
By the way, a patchbay is a way of making some of your audio wiring easier. In the course of using a hardware mixer you will want to re-route some channels to external effects, or take a sub-mix effect it and fold it back into another channel... (Notice how more mixer channels have crept in here without you having bought more instruments...hmmm...). Anyway audio wires in and out of you mixer will not always be connected in the same way and re-routing is a pain 'cos all the sockets are neatly out of the way at the back of all you kit. The patchbay allows you to route audio paths to points on the patchbay and then connect them as your task requires, using additional patch cables... Of course you can get smart patchbays that get rid of the patch cables and route internally. (Whether this is programmed through the front panel or through MIDI messages I don't know!)
I hope that makes some things clearer (to anyone) - Sorry if it is too simplistic. Personally I'm more confused now...
Rich
At its simplest, MIDI data describes how an instrument should play - note values, velocities etc. Upon receiving note data a MIDI instrument will (should) play the relevant sounds which will be fed to the audio outs on the instrument.
There are therefore two approaches to digital recording of MIDI equipped instruments:
1. Record the MIDI data on a sequencer. So to play what you have "recorded" you play the MIDI data back to the MIDI instruments. The instruments in turn reproduce the sounds - how many instruments and how many audio outputs are being used on those instruments determining how many audio channels need to be mixed.
2. Don't worry about the MIDI - record the audio on your sequencer/HD recording package. Each instrument plays and its audio output goes to the PC soundcard. The PC records all the sound, thus to replay the performance the PC/soundcard internally mixes the sounds and outputs to its audio outputs.
MIDI data is quite compact, it takes maybe less than 6 numbers to tell a MIDI keyboard to play a note, how hard and for how long. Digitally recording sound on the other hand uses a lot of space tens of thousands of numbers for every second recorded. It takes more PC processor power to "mix" to sounds, whereas practically no processing is needed to "mix" MIDI data - the data is just sent to the instruments and they each create the sounds they've been told to, but the sounds do need to be recombined, i.e. a mixer.
OPTIONS
1. Record MIDI
Pros
+ Doesn't take much memory space or processing power.
+ You can edit the data - so you can easily change the note lengths or the sounds after the recording.
Cons
- You need to have enough instruments to recreate your performance/recording.
- You need to mix the audio outputs (and you also have to manually reconfigure your mixer settings and audio routings to work on an old track).
2. Digitally record sound
Pros
+ Captures the actual sound of the recording - you can edit this later.
+ You can do things to the recorded sound that MIDI data cannot tell you instruments to do. Furthermore this is done in software, which is very often cheaper than getting more hardware.
+ The signal processing is done digitally, it is therefore practically immune to degradation.
+ If your aiming to distribute your music on CD you're already most of the way there.
+ You could get away with fewer instruments because having recorded an instrument playing one part you can use it again to play another and another - you don’t need the instrument to replay all the recorded sounds simultaneously.
Cons
- It needs a powerful PC, with lots of memory and lots of hard disk space. (or expensive dedicated hardware).
- If you want to work on a lot of different tracks at different times you'll need even more space.
- To change the original sound on the synth you will need to re-record the sound. (Edits on the audio is more like an effect than a change to the synthesis method used.)
Now because neither of these recording methods is quite ideal, a modern hard disk recording enabled sequencer will allow you to use both of these techniques as fits your needs. The software may say each part is using a "channel", but that may be MIDI or it may be audio - it won’t be both.
But whatever you do there will be no MIDI going to your mixing desk. (It may be possible to have a MIDI controlled digital mixing desk but the MIDI will be used to tell the mixing desk how to set levels etc… not for carrying sound.)
Something else on the MIDI/audio channels thing. A midi cable carries 16 "channels" worth of midi data (in one direction), what this means is that the cable can talk to 16 different MIDI (errr…) "sound sources" I guess. That is, if you have two mono-timberal synths then they will each use only one MIDI channel, if you have a 16 part multi-timberal synth then it could be listening to all 16 MIDI channels at the same time and producing different sounds as a result of messages on each.
Timbrality=(potential) MIDI channel consumption. But in audio channel terms, your two mono synths may each have a stereo out (total 4 audio channels), whereas your 16 part multi-timberal synth _may_ only have a stereo out, meaning that all 16 sounds (one per MIDI channel) are being mixed inside the synth. Alternatively a 16 part multi synth may have a couple of extra (audio) sub-outputs, so maybe 16 MIDI channels are triggering 16 sounds mixed to 4 audio outputs.
A crude way out with only two sound sources, is to pan the sounds in each source (say) hard left, then send the left output of each instrument to the left and right amp inputs respectively. If your instruments are multi-timberal you can probably set their levels with the level settings on you MIDI sequencer - that is the sequencer will tell the synth how loud to play each MIDI channel in the synth's mixing stage.
Amps with more than two inputs (are we talking about bi-wirable Hi-Fi type amps?), I don't know, maybe... but remember (I always hear that) instruments can potentially produce levels that your Hi-Fi wont like.
By the way, a patchbay is a way of making some of your audio wiring easier. In the course of using a hardware mixer you will want to re-route some channels to external effects, or take a sub-mix effect it and fold it back into another channel... (Notice how more mixer channels have crept in here without you having bought more instruments...hmmm...). Anyway audio wires in and out of you mixer will not always be connected in the same way and re-routing is a pain 'cos all the sockets are neatly out of the way at the back of all you kit. The patchbay allows you to route audio paths to points on the patchbay and then connect them as your task requires, using additional patch cables... Of course you can get smart patchbays that get rid of the patch cables and route internally. (Whether this is programmed through the front panel or through MIDI messages I don't know!)
I hope that makes some things clearer (to anyone) - Sorry if it is too simplistic. Personally I'm more confused now...
Rich
Message 4/4 18-Mar-98 @ 08:55 PM - RE: Why and when do you need a patchbay?
Sorry my text formatting all went a bit wrong in the middle there. There are two options presented and following each pros are prefixed + and cons -...
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