Forums - Mixing & FX
Subject: Why is digital less warm than....
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Original Message Date: 28-Feb-02 @ 09:02 PM - Why is digital less warm than....
We all hear things like, digital isn't as warm as analog, and while I'm not here to argue that specifically, did you ever think about why that is? Outside of some of the basic physical properties, you'd think the two mediums wouldn't be that divergent.... and in some sense, maybe they're not. Now I'm gonna try a little heresy...
Maybe the reason mixes from analog sounds warmer, more musical, whatever, is: our techniques for recording, mixing, etc., are mostly built and modeled on analog experience. We've learned techniques for, say mic placement, that were establised in the analog realm... maybe we should be evaluating new ways of doing things....?
I mean think about one of the most basic differences between the two mediums, the level meter... Many of us that came from the analog world were sorely surprised to find out we couldn't push the LEDs "past the red" on a digital board... Now once I learned how to use digital LEDs, mt life, and my mixes, sounded better...
I'm not really trying to lay out new "rules" of digital recording/mixing, but just bouncing the idea off you all. If you have any experience with what I'm on about here, by all means share it. If you got a "warm sound" from all digital equipment, what was your methodology? Why do you think it worked that way? If you captured a digital take of a vocalist that just simply shimmers, did you do it the "traditional" (i.e., basically as it's always been done on analog equipment) way, or did you find a technique that is exclusive to digital?
Anyhoos, just some thoughts....
Peace All
Message 31/157 05-Mar-02 @ 12:09 AM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
knowa, have you heard the gill evans arrangement for big band of so what? the whole band plays miles' solo. mmmmm.
Message 32/157 05-Mar-02 @ 05:20 AM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
Message 33/157 05-Mar-02 @ 05:22 AM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
Message 34/157 05-Mar-02 @ 09:56 AM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
I used to 'master' from my 01V through a Finalizer Express and direct to CDR, all digital all the way. Bought an SPL Vitalizer Mk2T (with tubes) on reputation alone and inserted between the 01V and Finalizer (adding two stages of conversion to the stereo mix, not the best move in theory), and it does make a very welcome difference on the right material. The subtle but noticeable tube sound is there, sparkle, clarity (all the usual superlatives apply) and it's (mostly) all under your control. It's like an adaptive equaliser, adjust one part of the spectrum and the neighbouring frequencies are adjusted in accordance with the Fletcher-Munson curves for optimum sweetness. Best of all, it lets you know if you are feeding it a duff mix, as it hardly has any effect at all on poorly mixed material. Good mixes sound better, bad mixes sound a bit less bad. SPL gear isn't that well known in the US (bad distribution, marketing etc.) but its well worth checking out. Link above^^^
Message 35/157 05-Mar-02 @ 10:34 AM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
now seriously: at one studio i used to put finished mixes thru a mindprint tube compressor with variable tube saturation. it has a separate dial for tube drive, so i could choose if i want to compress or not, but still ad some warmth. the unit was equiped with digital i/o so i could go from protools thru the comp and then to dat with just one unavoidable conversion stage. at another place i used to put a finished mix thru channles on a neve, which sounds just sweet. and also, for a short while i had access to a protools rig with Focusrite Red series eq and compressor. that was just the dog´s bollox...
but maaan...there are cheaper ways than those. that PSP vintage warmwer is great, some other emulator plugins also. even the tube saturation on antares mic modeler is great (though not for whole mixes of course). dont sweat the technology too mch, if you´re having music released its bound to go to a profesional mastering studio at some point, and they can take care of that for you.
and anyway, why the hell should raw and underground dance tracks have to sound like audiophile recordings? good music is good music even at lo-fi streaming rates, let alone on a vinyl or a cd. i dont think that many consumers are going to know a difference if you dont use hi quality shit.
just my 2eurocents.
Message 36/157 05-Mar-02 @ 03:32 PM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
And he always mixed drunk, not bad.
Message 37/157 05-Mar-02 @ 03:45 PM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
Message 38/157 05-Mar-02 @ 10:57 PM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
Brett - as relates to my signal path, depends on what I'm trying to do. It sometimes never leaves the PC, sometimes it goes through the 01v, sometimes through the TC box... occasionally it goes through a Mackie analog board... It depends whether I'm mixing down from analog sources (going straight into the PC or to DAT), or if I'm mixing down tracks that have already been recorded into the PC, they get mixed inside... In the case of tracking down, say a synth, it'll generally go straight into the PC. I don't tend to bring things out to a board when I'm recording or tracking unless I'm adding in "live" instruments, that is just listening, sorting, organizing a track, prior to recording it to HD. I'm an old guitar player so I occasionally like to dirty the sound with old decrepit stomp boxes, or maybe I need something a bit deeper like using a multi FX box or what have you, got a couple of shiny new bits around here (like my studio partner's Avalon 737 - yeah after all the hubub about using it/not using it with a recent project, he still went out and bought one... o' course, a lot of why he bought it was cos he got it cheap - real cheap... so...) but we almost never bother with them unless we're trying to tweak something on a particular sound or track... Again, it can really vary depending on what I'm after.... I try to go through the least number of conversions/signal chains as possible. I've been able to get very nice warmth just doing little EQ tweaks and whatnot, all in the PC. For synths and stuff, I find you can "warm" the sound just as easily by using synthesis or EQ, as opposed to running through a DI, tube setup, or other preamp type critter.... and the end result is both warm AND clean (or at least "cleaner").
As for a mastering signal path, it either stays in the PC, or it goes from the PC to the Finalizer (AES/EBU) and back into the PC, or for those folks that still bring me DATs, from the DAT straight into the PC, or from DAT through the TC box then to the PC, depending on what I think the track is going to need....
And, I never master my own stuff anymore, least not my dance bits or anything critical... To me, if you create the track, you really ought to let someone else master it, as you really can't be as objective as you should. I'm not saying don't try to master your own tracks (and sometimes, due to budget considerations, one has no choice but to master it on their own). Even on stuff I send out to master, I'll still do a pass myself to see how stuff is going to sound, but from my own experience I generally go with other folk to do the mastering on my trax. I do master other folks bits, that's a good chunk of my income actually... I just don't do it on me own stuff cos I'm too close to my own work to be properly objective about what needs to be done at the mastering stage.
Just me two pesos... yer mileage may vary....
Peace All
Message 39/157 06-Mar-02 @ 05:38 PM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
I feel the same way about the conversion thing. If it's in my pc why go out again. I see the finalizer coming up comming up a lot. I played with one at GC on some material and didn't get anywhere with it. the presets were not cutting it. I guess I would need some time to get the hang of it. So what do you think about the use of TCpowerecore in Wavelab or the likes for mastering. It has the finalizer plug-in on it now. That way no aes/ebu cables to worry about, and it has all those synths, vocoder and antares goodies on it. I still think I need to get a better input signal from my outboard and I was thinking of getting an avalon 747 or a Empirical labs disstressor with that tape transistor on it. In all honesty, I have been budgeting out a Protools rig with a control 24 as well. I wonder if those focusrite pre-s on the control 24 are as good as the standalon units they make? So in the end what I want is Wavlab with the tc-powercore for mastering and the PT setup for tracking and mixing. With the new Nativeinstruments thing, i can use all those softsynths I am used to in PT.
Message 40/157 06-Mar-02 @ 06:19 PM - RE: Why is digital less warm than....
Control 24 preamps are from the focusrite platinum range, which are still sound sweet mind you, but are surpassed by the red (not to mention blue) stuff they build. though i doubt you´d need more than that for anyway. maybe one good avalon or something in adition to that, for vocals and instruments.
anyway, what are you doing with all that gear Brett? you opening a commercial studio or something? you are talking about more hi-quality standard than i met in some pro studios which still produce quality commercial albums.
my 2 convertible denars :P
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