Has digital audio won the battle?? - Synths & synthesis forums

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Subject: Has digital audio won the battle??

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Original Message 1/34 07-Oct-01 @ 07:23 PM - Has digital audio won the battle??

tweaker_at_work

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I really used to love those analog equipment. I
used to work with Juno's Prophet and some Roland
x0x drumcomputers. But lately i have becomming
more and more impressed by the huge possibilities
of digital audio. Do the possibilities digital
audio give outweight the authentic sound of analog
equipment???

PS:
I still love that analog sound but Digital has
also got it's charms but the trick is not to
compare those two but make something different out
of it.

I am interested in youre opinion on

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Message 2/34 07-Oct-01 @ 10:01 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Maarten

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Digital does not describe a certain feel to sounds as it used to I guess. Any die hard pro-'analogist' would have to agree, at least partially. I have my VirusB now for a couple weeks and already sometimes can't tell the difference between it and my (sold) SH-101, S.A. Neptune and (at times) me TB303. Still I sometimes regret having sold the SH, don't know why though but if it keeps eating at me much longer I'll search for it again. This on it's own brings questions to this topic for me, there probably is some difference when sound is created by pure electricity instead of a bunch of 1's and 0's.

-M-

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Message 3/34 08-Oct-01 @ 03:07 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Pongoid

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No matter how hard I try, nothing matches the punch, clarity, and thickness of my analog stuff. I use both, and they both sound great in their own way, but especially for live sets, the diffrence is clear, analog is still the shit.

Ape

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Message 4/34 11-Oct-01 @ 07:36 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Matt Hutch

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Yo Ape,

How would you compare the sound of your analog gear running through an analog mixer through the amp to speakers vs. recorded tracks, created on your analog gear, coming out of your computer audio card through the amp to speakers?

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Message 5/34 13-Oct-01 @ 11:57 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Pongoid

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bigger, louder, and more raw. Each piece of each sound is clearer. Individual waveforms are much more distinct and defined, and the harmonic content just seems richer.

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Message 6/34 14-Oct-01 @ 06:20 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

panama

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analog is the way man... took me 2 1/2 years
to figure it out (actually, just a few days ago).
Digital has some good things about it
though... intresting modulated sounds and
good square waves here and there. BUT,
analog is KING no matter what.

Analog has this essence about it - especially
VCO synths... little shifting in tones, gives the
ear the goodies it needs... you can hear this
live definitley - it gives you more than you
need, like cutting the mix and making it
'phatter' with ease.

Run a recorded bassline off a virus and put it
through a filter factory... then listen to the
changes as the filter sweeps... now get a
sh-101 and filter it with a Filterfactory, or a Big
Briar Low-pass and hear the difference in the
sweep... something is there

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Message 7/34 14-Oct-01 @ 04:57 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Pongoid

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try samples of an 808 versus a real one live. Just not the same beast.

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Message 8/34 15-Oct-01 @ 06:39 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

bedwyr

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is it the inherent 'randomness' of analog that peoples ears like? digital is the exact same sound every time (slightly simplistic..), if you put a bit of random-ing into a digital patch maybe your ears don't get bored so quickly?

panama, sh-101 and virus are different synths, so there will be a difference no? question is which one do u like...

ps why is analog 'authentic'?

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Message 9/34 15-Oct-01 @ 09:45 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Bastiaan (Hajee)

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By definition Analogue is authentic (the original) since digital VA's try to copy/recreate them. I think it takes more than randomization to get that full sounds and recording an analogue on your PC than playing it back (digitally) STILL is not the same as the sound of a softsynth or VA...let me give you an example to clarify: when I record some Bach played by a real symphonic orchestra and play it back digitally tru my computer I possibly loose some high freqs and some dynamic content but it still sounds a HELL of a lot better dan any sampler or digital synth can do...same goes with analogue versus digital synths...albeit with possible lesser difference.

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Message 10/34 16-Oct-01 @ 04:41 AM Edit: 16-Oct-01 | 04:44 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

panama

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bedwyr: you kind of got the idea but didnt... as
Pongoid stated, analog on a live PA sounds
much better than a digital setup. This applys
seemingly with analog synth and drum gear.
Yes, you could prolly do slight changes in tone
with digital gear... but it's not the same thing
as with vintage analog. Voltage Controlled
Osc's warm up and get sexy... while VA's just
turn on and are ready to go. These VCO's have
real circuits and real parts making sound
exist... VA's are just code and computer
software with processors.

for me, I'd rather start with real product, then
take it further... because along the way -
secrets rely in what you 'really' don't hear.

Analog has it... digital does not!

but hey! you can write music on a digital and
rock the party ten times harder... but for me,
analog is true music to my ears.

sh-101 vs. Virus basslines? eh? just an
example of why analog has earthly character
compared to a VA.

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Message 11/34 16-Oct-01 @ 06:31 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

bedwyr

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well, i don't think digital has it, yet. as u were saying 'va's r just code & processors' - better code & faster processors? 4 an orchestra (baastian) if u modeled every handmade violin, individual vibrato & timing, position & reverb ... it's a long shot, but we just might make it

never played (or seen) a virus, 101s are just so easy to use, it's all in front of ur face!

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Message 12/34 16-Oct-01 @ 12:44 PM Edit: 16-Oct-01 | 01:15 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

milan

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yeah, but theres also something to be said for the sound which comes out of your analog, and the sound of digitaly recorded analog.

once i place my Oberheim in the mix, the sound is no longer so phat and meaty, even with 20Bit/48Khz recording. it just shrumps in the size, and is no phatter than anything coming from a VA or whatever...

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Message 13/34 16-Oct-01 @ 06:05 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

8life8

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Analouge just makes your music soo organtik, I had a recording artist try to talk me into using these real shakers and claves ect in my music cos he said it's lacking organtik feel, then I brought in the 808 and just like a real drummer the sound is always changing producing organtik vibe/feel (I've gone through loads of 808 rom kits and nothing can compare, even if I sample it directly it' loses botom and the "magic feel" to me it's the dif of being real or virtual...

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Message 14/34 17-Oct-01 @ 01:14 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

milan

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but what when you record it? shouldnt be any different than sampling it. i mean, the variations will stay, but the sound quality wont, thats what i was reffering to in the previous post.

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Message 15/34 17-Oct-01 @ 02:56 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Maarten

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That's why I enjoy live performances above DJ sets, not only drooling over gear but there's something to the sound coming out directly and unprocessed as mentioned earlier.

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Message 16/34 17-Oct-01 @ 03:34 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

knowa

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milan, the difference between (a) recording six minutes of a real 808 and (b) programming six minutes of 808 samples would be that (a) would contain 6 minutes of all the fluctuations in pitch/timbre/magic/etc. associated with 'analog warmth', and (b) would contain 6 minutes of identical, static samples. Right? I get what you're saying about the difference between live analog and digitally recorded analog. The differences between my Pulse, Virus, and Pro-52 are less pronounced once they are recorded. I can still hear the difference though. To my ears, it just gets cleaner and cleaner, the farther you stray from real analog. --knowa

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Message 17/34 17-Oct-01 @ 03:38 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

milan

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erm... "the variations will stay, but the sound quality wont". we agree, no?

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Message 18/34 17-Oct-01 @ 03:48 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

knowa

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duh, right.

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Message 19/34 17-Oct-01 @ 04:34 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

bedwyr

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who said it was a battle anyway?

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Message 20/34 18-Oct-01 @ 01:05 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

steve

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they both give music their own lick - an ob8 can`t do what an fs1r can and vice-versa. Digital is much better when its not pretending to be analogue really, the term 'va' is just a pile of wank, better 'digital subtractive' or something.

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Message 21/34 18-Oct-01 @ 03:29 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

knowa

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right on, steve. bottom line, they sound different. once I gave up on trying to make my Virus sound like an MS-20, I fell in love with it again like I did in the store.

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Message 22/34 19-Oct-01 @ 04:15 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Bastiaan (Hajee)

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Yeah copying stuff is a waste of time.

I made my an1x sound like a thumbpiano today...I WAS TRYING TO MAKE A SYNTHESIZED CYMBAL but got this funky thumb piano sound instead...

erm.. why am I saying this? Oh yeah...here's my qustion: are people saying that even 24/96 digital recordings can't capture analogue...pff...HOW accurate can one's hearing be? I agree that 16 bit is not enough resolution for a lot of music....expecially stuff like classical music and opera have too much dynamics and some people claim to be able to hear aliasing and other artifacts on cd's...but won't interpolation, oversampling and possibly a good (tube)-amp cure that??

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Message 23/34 19-Oct-01 @ 05:03 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

knowa

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16-bit cd's sound really good to me. jazz sounds better on vinyl. but I never listen to opera, so what do I knowa.

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Message 24/34 19-Oct-01 @ 07:21 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

milan

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dunno, but i do notice that when i record sounds from my oberheim and play them back , the sound just shrinks in size. not a lot, but its there and unmistakable.

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Message 25/34 20-Oct-01 @ 11:03 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

xoxos

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i don't doubt that.. had the same experience with recording my pro one. why shouldn't a human be perceptive enough to pick up on subtle stuff like the difference between oscillations?

each analog circuit has it's own way of producing the waveform you hear.. it's not like perfect math jsut ocmes naturally in electronics. there are little ways of doing stuff to reduce the 'peak' that comes in at the start of when a pulse wave switches.. leveling out oscillations and stuff i don't understand at all.. tons of stuff on it on the web. yer basic low-parts-count referred-to-as-a 'pulse' osc has a load of shrinking teeth along the edge from whanging that current back and forth. it's an edgy sound i am familiar with (you too if you remember my homemade box.)

in other words, it's a buggery job trying to get a perfect sawtooth ramp. designers have different ways of applying circuitry (ie. there is no perfect way afaik) to approximate this ideal form, and each way is going to produce it's own, unique timbre, of ocurse.

now in virtual form, drawing a straight line is easy.. the only thing you've got to deal with is your digital resolution, which is a new sound altogether.

so on about my z again.. it's got 4 lfos right and i've been doing these analog emulations with layered (say one at 5Hz and one at 14Hz) 'random vector' lfo waveforms (it generates a positive random vector and a negative one for eahc cycle.. like two straight lines, but the angle to be determined) and it's just so right on analog. you know when the sound comes out of an analog and it's so colourful you can taste berries.. it gets there.. really sounding vivid and alive like analog where the self-oscillating resonance licks around your head like a hallucinatory salamander. my filter sweeps go thru my fucked up warbling oscillators like 'ooh glitchy dirty potentiometer..' sounds so lovely..

i think i'm kinda liking it more than real analog because it's so clean, but it's a bit starchy to set all the variations personally.. to ramp the scale just so.. just a little flat on the highs.. ie. ooh, i'll pitch this one down, offset it one 3Hz.. sorta silly when there's one that's 'messed up' naturally.

16, 32, 1024 random vector modulators should be even better, to apply in seperate layers (ie. a fast and a slow random vector and maybe another pair subtly altering the speed of each..) to envelope times, et c. my envelopes are sounding bit stiff now that i've got the oscillators coloured up. the bass doesn't seem as thick either but that's probably largely idiomatic.

cos in analog, you've got all these things that are affecting your waveform.. the circuit design, down to temperature, dare i say planetary magnetic fields and cthulhu and stuff.

but why not just-as-peachy??? it's not like there are digital speaker cones and digital air (hope not anyway) so eventually the sound has to go analog somewhere.

maybe one day there'll be a v.a. with presets designed to emulate an analog played on neptune, or by kilo, since we have magnetic fields too. subtle, but there's your variation and magic.

when i finish this track (riight..) i'm also sampling some 'raw' oscillator (for making a point elsewhere) if anyone wants to look forward to it. it's sweet!

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Message 26/34 21-Oct-01 @ 02:03 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

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analog!.. wey! :]

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!

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Message 27/34 22-Oct-01 @ 10:21 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Pongoid

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K....wuzzat? It looks purty!!!

Digital and analog do different things. It's not a battle til you try to get one to do the other's job, so why try to reinvent the wheel? You want analog sound? Save your pennies and get analog gear. You want digital sound? Go digital. You want both (like me)? Get both. Why get a Pulse if you want the gnarly dirt of a DX100, and why buy a Virus if you want the grease of a Mini or an SE-1? Why do you think I love doing live sets? Cuz I love plugging cables and breaking gear and getting it dirty and trying babysitting it for hours before and after I play? Fuck no. It's all about the sound and flexibility. If I could caprture the sound, even on analog tape, and then to vinyl, do you think I wouldn't prefer to just play some dubplates, put my record bag over my shoulder, then get my party on and not have to be on point? You think I like just hanging out, packing up my rig while listening to some hack job DJ play his records or waitint til the end of the party, sweating whether my gear is all going to be there and not have some asshole's drink spilled on it, frying it out? That's beside lugging the stuff all over hell and creation. The only thing that makes it worthwhile is when you crank that shit up, and turn that whole soundsystem into your instrument, and that big fat warm stinky analog 'whump' just throws the floor into a frenzy, and everybody is sweatin and groovin with the energy you've taken from the crowd, catalyzed, and given direction to. Nothing I've ever encountered has felt like the sensation of taking a kind of sparse dancfloor, and in minutes, packing it with hundreds, and on occasion thousands of dancing humans. I am a firm believer that the sound of 'REAL analog' circuitry has helped make this happen on more than a few occasions. Of course, I could be completely wrong about all of this and it actually relates to the planetary alignments, and numbers and names that I can't remember, let alone comprehend the significance of. You be the judge.

Ape

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Message 28/34 23-Oct-01 @ 12:08 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

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that's me Trilogy mate - there was a company in the UK in the 80's and they I think were two Sieks, they did synths called CHASE, there was I think the Chase Bit-1, and this is the trilogy which is kinda like one of those cheap moogs in that it blends sections like string, synth & organ or something... hold up...

there she is with the hood up !

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Message 29/34 23-Oct-01 @ 12:10 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

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this camera's focus is crap eh?... mebbe better with a flash

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Message 30/34 23-Oct-01 @ 07:11 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Pongoid

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K,
Such pornograchic images, and filth are not only tolerated here, they are encouraged!!! You are a very dirty and twisted young man, and I applaud you for it. I should have taken pics of my Q opened up, while I repaired it, but wasn't thinking, and besides, it's not nearly as impressive. The MW1 on the other hand...

Thanks for the obceneties. Please carry on.

Ape

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Message 31/34 24-Oct-01 @ 06:00 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Maarten

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Well at least ease my curiosity and post some audio... jeez!

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Message 32/34 30-Oct-01 @ 05:43 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

panama

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yah! audio pleez!

whenever I got a cool sound out of my
JP-8000 (which I'm getting rid of, cuse it's
crap), I would fire up the 101 or the 106, and
create a sound with maybe an effect box, and
take it further. KEEPING analog real! cuse,
digital doesn't give you the age and harmonic
difference that analog does. It's just real and
natural! like a guitar... every tone changes with
each strum of a pick.

punch after punch after punch!

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Message 33/34 30-Oct-01 @ 08:05 PM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

xoxos

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wait til you hear how magic my dx100 sounds then.. feel like i've got crystals for fingers when i play it..

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Message 34/34 19-Nov-01 @ 04:52 AM - RE: Has digital audio won the battle??

Brett B

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xoxoxo, run that dx-100 through a filter. I run mine through my syntechno. It overdrives into sound great textures.

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