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Forums - The lounge
Subject: why war
Viewing all 41 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3 4 5
Original Message 1/41 18-Oct-02 @ 09:40 PM - why war
I see a lot of posts about America and Iraq, and sometimes I find what some of you folks think a bit hard to swallow....
It seems like a lot of you think that America is threatening war simply for oil, so that a few men can obtain more power and money.... Do you really think that? If you do, I think you are misguided. I think that money and power MIGHT be the end result of a war, but that's an dubious proposition at best, and I don't think they are the USA's prime motivating factors for starting one.....
Bush clearly laid out the case that Saddam is a UNIQUE threat for reasons x, y and z... and, after a debate, our Congress voted to go along, and created a resolution authorizing war. So, this isn't "Bush's war" and we're not a "dictatorship". This is a healthy democracy where everyone (including Bush) votes, and are bound by the results according to the rule of law...
To say that we start wars for money and power is kind of selling short what really moves our leaders to action... These guys are seriously concerned about SECURITY, and oil is a part of that.... Like it or not, a steady flow of oil happens to be vital for many nations' national security. So, peace in the region is in the world's best interest. But saying it's just about oil is like pointing at Influx and saying he's only doing music for the money and the chicks... it sells short what he's really about, and trivializes the issue. Hey, these guys all HAVE money AND immense power.... And we all know that wars are very very costly, both in human and economic terms....
So, in my view, these men sit in fear of the judgement of history, because they truly fear what Saddam will do if given a chance......
More people should be GLAD Saddam is going down, but it seems like there's a lot of hand-wringing... the guy is a menace, and he's just going to cause more problems if he's left alone. He's also shooting at us almost every day for fuck's sake. So, what the fuck? Is the world supposed to do nothing? So, what would you do?
There's no denying it will be a tremendous benefit to the West to have a friendly Iraqi regime, and it will be also pretty good for the Iraqi people, too (the ones that survive the war, anyway).... but to say that we threaten all this killing and upheaval because of the greed and power hunger of a few men is too simple an argument...
Before you ask, I don't trust the govt. and I'm not supportive of the USA going to war alone. But I do think the threat is real. The guy has got to go, and it's up to the world to find a way to do it....
It seems like a lot of you think that America is threatening war simply for oil, so that a few men can obtain more power and money.... Do you really think that? If you do, I think you are misguided. I think that money and power MIGHT be the end result of a war, but that's an dubious proposition at best, and I don't think they are the USA's prime motivating factors for starting one.....
Bush clearly laid out the case that Saddam is a UNIQUE threat for reasons x, y and z... and, after a debate, our Congress voted to go along, and created a resolution authorizing war. So, this isn't "Bush's war" and we're not a "dictatorship". This is a healthy democracy where everyone (including Bush) votes, and are bound by the results according to the rule of law...
To say that we start wars for money and power is kind of selling short what really moves our leaders to action... These guys are seriously concerned about SECURITY, and oil is a part of that.... Like it or not, a steady flow of oil happens to be vital for many nations' national security. So, peace in the region is in the world's best interest. But saying it's just about oil is like pointing at Influx and saying he's only doing music for the money and the chicks... it sells short what he's really about, and trivializes the issue. Hey, these guys all HAVE money AND immense power.... And we all know that wars are very very costly, both in human and economic terms....
So, in my view, these men sit in fear of the judgement of history, because they truly fear what Saddam will do if given a chance......
More people should be GLAD Saddam is going down, but it seems like there's a lot of hand-wringing... the guy is a menace, and he's just going to cause more problems if he's left alone. He's also shooting at us almost every day for fuck's sake. So, what the fuck? Is the world supposed to do nothing? So, what would you do?
There's no denying it will be a tremendous benefit to the West to have a friendly Iraqi regime, and it will be also pretty good for the Iraqi people, too (the ones that survive the war, anyway).... but to say that we threaten all this killing and upheaval because of the greed and power hunger of a few men is too simple an argument...
Before you ask, I don't trust the govt. and I'm not supportive of the USA going to war alone. But I do think the threat is real. The guy has got to go, and it's up to the world to find a way to do it....
Message 2/41 18-Oct-02 @ 10:20 PM - RE: why war
well you're a fucking idiot then, and i bet you think that columbus 'discovered' america by accident.
come on, ghost, you've got some ability. close your eyes.. turn off your chatter or whatever and listen.. can't you hear them? why the fuck do you think we need a 72 mile long antenna in wisconsin? get a grip! open your eyes!
come on, ghost, you've got some ability. close your eyes.. turn off your chatter or whatever and listen.. can't you hear them? why the fuck do you think we need a 72 mile long antenna in wisconsin? get a grip! open your eyes!
Message 3/41 18-Oct-02 @ 10:42 PM - RE: why war
hee hee!! I am all those things, and so much less....
Message 4/41 18-Oct-02 @ 11:25 PM - RE: why war
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
I see a lot of posts about Iraq and Israel, and sometimes I find what some of you folks think a bit hard to swallow....
It seems like a lot of you think that Iraq is threatening war simply for power, so that a few men can obtain more power and money.... Do you really think that? If you do, I think you are misguided. I think that money and power MIGHT be the end result of a war, but that's an dubious proposition at best, and I don't think they are Iraq's prime motivating factors for starting one.....
Saddam clearly laid out the case that Ariel Sharon is a UNIQUE threat for reasons x, y and z... and, after a debate, our cabinet voted to go along, and created a resolution authorizing war. So, this isn't "Sadaam's war" and we're not a "dictatorship". This is a healthy one-party state where everyone (including Sadaam) votes, and are bound by the results according to the rule of law...
To say that we start wars for power and oil is kind of selling short what really moves our leaders to action... These guys are seriously concerned about SECURITY, and the agressive stance of Israel is a part of that.... Like it or not, the Israeli army and their nuclear weapons threaten many nations' national security. So, peace in the region is in the world's best interest. But saying it's just about hating Israel is like pointing at k and saying he's only doing dancetech because he hates the corporates... it sells short what he's really about, and trivializes the issue. Hey, the guys that rule Iraq all HAVE money AND immense power already! And we all know that wars are very very costly, both in human and economic terms....
So, in my view, Sadaam and his cabinet sit in fear of the judgement of history, because they truly fear what Sharon will do if given a chance......
More people should be GLAD Sharon is going down, but it seems like there's a lot of hand-wringing... the guy is a menace, and he's just going to cause more problems if he's left alone. He's also shooting at our fellow arabs almost every day for fuck's sake, with tanks! So, what the fuck? Is the world supposed to do nothing? So, what would you do?
There's no denying it will be a tremendous benefit to the arab nations to have a friendly (docile) Israeli regime, and it will be also pretty good for the Israeli people, too (the ones that survive the war, anyway).... but to say that Iraq threatens all this killing and upheaval because of the greed and power hunger of a few men is too simple an argument...
Before you ask, I don't trust the govt. and I'm not supportive of the Iraq going to war alone. But I do think the threat is real. The guy has got to go, and it's up to the world to find a way to do it....
It seems like a lot of you think that Iraq is threatening war simply for power, so that a few men can obtain more power and money.... Do you really think that? If you do, I think you are misguided. I think that money and power MIGHT be the end result of a war, but that's an dubious proposition at best, and I don't think they are Iraq's prime motivating factors for starting one.....
Saddam clearly laid out the case that Ariel Sharon is a UNIQUE threat for reasons x, y and z... and, after a debate, our cabinet voted to go along, and created a resolution authorizing war. So, this isn't "Sadaam's war" and we're not a "dictatorship". This is a healthy one-party state where everyone (including Sadaam) votes, and are bound by the results according to the rule of law...
To say that we start wars for power and oil is kind of selling short what really moves our leaders to action... These guys are seriously concerned about SECURITY, and the agressive stance of Israel is a part of that.... Like it or not, the Israeli army and their nuclear weapons threaten many nations' national security. So, peace in the region is in the world's best interest. But saying it's just about hating Israel is like pointing at k and saying he's only doing dancetech because he hates the corporates... it sells short what he's really about, and trivializes the issue. Hey, the guys that rule Iraq all HAVE money AND immense power already! And we all know that wars are very very costly, both in human and economic terms....
So, in my view, Sadaam and his cabinet sit in fear of the judgement of history, because they truly fear what Sharon will do if given a chance......
More people should be GLAD Sharon is going down, but it seems like there's a lot of hand-wringing... the guy is a menace, and he's just going to cause more problems if he's left alone. He's also shooting at our fellow arabs almost every day for fuck's sake, with tanks! So, what the fuck? Is the world supposed to do nothing? So, what would you do?
There's no denying it will be a tremendous benefit to the arab nations to have a friendly (docile) Israeli regime, and it will be also pretty good for the Israeli people, too (the ones that survive the war, anyway).... but to say that Iraq threatens all this killing and upheaval because of the greed and power hunger of a few men is too simple an argument...
Before you ask, I don't trust the govt. and I'm not supportive of the Iraq going to war alone. But I do think the threat is real. The guy has got to go, and it's up to the world to find a way to do it....
Message 6/41 18-Oct-02 @ 11:50 PM - RE: why war
yinz are crackers!! 
nice one Zazza, raises some excellent points.... they're all a despicable lot over there aren't they....?
enough war already...
nice one Zazza, raises some excellent points.... they're all a despicable lot over there aren't they....?
enough war already...
Message 7/41 18-Oct-02 @ 11:58 PM Edit: 19-Oct-02 | 04:34 PM - RE: why war
a 72 mile long antenna in wisconsin
if i remember correctly, an antenna has to be 2x the length of the wavelength to recieve on that frequency (or is it half? :p ) i'll let you lil' robots do the math.
btw if you're reading down this list, when you get to henry's post, skip ahead, since zazza was nice and broke it up into paragraphs.
if i remember correctly, an antenna has to be 2x the length of the wavelength to recieve on that frequency (or is it half? :p ) i'll let you lil' robots do the math.
btw if you're reading down this list, when you get to henry's post, skip ahead, since zazza was nice and broke it up into paragraphs.
Message 8/41 19-Oct-02 @ 12:05 AM - RE: why war
"they're all a despicable lot over there aren't they"...
!!!sigh!!!
And the boat sales into the sunset and poor Ghost is left on the pier! And i'm left feeling, erm... pensive.
e
!!!sigh!!!
And the boat sales into the sunset and poor Ghost is left on the pier! And i'm left feeling, erm... pensive.
e
Message 10/41 19-Oct-02 @ 06:22 AM - RE: why war
i'm still trying to get over a michael moore brainwashing myself.
Message 11/41 19-Oct-02 @ 08:36 AM - RE: why war
Ok,look i'm not going to say you're a moron for
following your leader that you probably voted
for.But keep in mind that 1: a nuclear device
that would be manufactured in Iraq w/ the
technology they have available would be
roughly the size of an RV(caravan for you
blokes) so it wouldn't fit in a shipping
container.2.it would be an extremely low yield
weopon that would have a 100% destruction
radius of only a mile or so.3.it would be easily
detectable from sat recon the second the
thing was built no matter how deep it was
stashed..4.Iraq has no delivery vehicle for
such a weapon and really stand no chance of
getting one.Think about it no Third World
infrastructure can sustain the type of
development program and obtain the exotic
materials needed to develop such
weapons.5.It would be a rifle type weapon
which uses a projectile to split the initial atom
causing said chain reaction.6.The level of
refinement needed to sustain even a 1 kiloton
weapon would be impossible w/o a serious
reactor.7.All of that shit would glow from sat
recon and aerial recon like a christmas
tree.Now let's think about this in order to be
athreat to the US it would have to be able to
generate enough velocity to create an orbit
that would be of a higher quality than what the
russians and chinese have because the
geographic location using the best technology
available today either requires a Sub
launched platform or a shot over the pole.Now
the very best delivery vehicle iraq posses is
the SCUD B.Absolute shite.Couldn't lift the
weapon off it's launcher at all.The closest any
'rogue" nation has to this is the No Dong 3
stage rocket that N.Korea and iran
share(Shehab 3)Now in modern nuclear
warfare you would have to have a MIRV
warhead to do the business.Only
China,russia,France,The US,and GB have
these systems.Contrary to popular belief we
have defense measures in place to deal w/ a
single warhead threat.Now the only real
possible threat to US interests from an iraqi
nuke would be to Israel9i'm not sure how that
is considered US interest w/o the holocaust/
guilt factor coming into play.So really the only
true threat to the US directly from iraq would
be a bio/chemical weapon delivered in a well
enclosed area.It's not like iraq are going to fly
Mig 29s w/ the dispersion equipment over a
US city.As far as israel goes they already
announced this summer that they have an
ICBM capability.The only problem is no
MIRV.The very same detection equipment the
UN inspectors use to find these threats are
flying around and ship based and sat based
w/ a million times the sensitivity and would
spot any incoming threat from Iraq well before
it got here.I mean come on you think you can
just smuggle that kind of hot material into a
country like the US.Well you might
say,millions of tons of cocaine and lesser
amounts of heroin are smuggled in each
year.Well for one,it's not just some
unorganized crime syndicate bringing in
drugs to the US.Think about all the heroin and
cocaine that is on our streets right now.I
suggest you check out the swap program that
the forest service did a couple years back for
old tanker aircraft for "decommissioned" C-
130 aircraft.Look at the companies that are
"contractors" for these aircraft and then do the
math on how many are in service vs. how
many were swapped.Not trying to sound like a
conspiracy theorist here because there are
alot of kooks out there spouting off all sorts of
crap.But if you do some simple research into
the CIA and Air America and follow the trail
from vietnam on up to today you will find alot of
"retired" faces that have had convictions for all
sorts of bad stuff.Now if you really want to test
this out,ALL aircraft that sit on tarmacs at
airports are gassed up and ready to go.If you
know how to fly one go take one load up in a
thirdworld country and just try to get back in w/
o an AWACS dispatching an "escort" for
you.I'm so sick and tired of people taking what
they read and watch on TV as gospel.Now I'm
not saying that America is the most evil
country on the planet but to just listen to a guy
who can't even pronounce the word nuclear
tell you that he made a good case about
something he knows nothing about then you
aren't even bothering to get a second
unsanctioned opinion.Think of it like this.if it
were so easy to deliver a rudimentary low
yield nuke then pakistan and India would be a
memory.As far as black market nukes go think
about it.Have you ever heard of a russian or
former Combloc mafioso doing an up and up
deal.No they sell unrefined uranium to idiots
and fanatics that hav no clue as to how to
implement this stuff.As far as bio war and
other lovely pathogens go,just look at the
anthrax attacks as an example of how hard it
is to disperse w/ effectiveness.You would
have to have the capability to mill the weapon
to so few microns that the gear needed is very
custom and very secret.Look at the disaster in
the former soviet union as an example of how
few people would die w/ the real deal w/o a
proper dispersion mechanism.NBC warfare
isn't as simple as having a few pressure
cookers and milling machines of a
commercial variety to make an effective
weapon.Not to mention you have to have the
right atmospheric conditions and population
density to make such an attack as bio or
chemical.Do you really think that if it were so
easy to mount an effective attack that cave boy
would have used commercial aircraft to attack
us.No.Look as far as oil goes and power,don't
think for a second that just because to you
and me someone w/ billions in assets is
satisfied.Iraq because of it's geographic
location is a major stumbling block in the
caspian sea pipeline.just like Afghanistan
was the final key to the Unocal pipeline from
the baltic.Now that we've set up the
beginnings(provided our puppet govt. can
hold on to power) of the link through
Afghanistan it opens up former COMBLOC
oilfields for us.Look at what happened in
venezuela w/ Hugo chavez and the failed
coup.We were quick to embrace it until it was
quelled and there is only one reason
why.They are the second largest OPEC
producer in the world.Now if you feel that we
need to suck the world dry of it's oil in the
name of progress,that's your right.But
considering the real progress made in
Hydrogen fuel cell technology,the money we
spend on political manipulation could very
easily end our need for foreign and even
domestic petro products.Frankly
speaking,what we are witnessing is the last
great land rush on our planet.All for the
pockets of a select few.We have an
incarcaration rate that rivals any ever forced
upon a modern civilization in the US.We also
have a handful of texans,and Arkansaniacs
that have run our country for the past several
decades.Now do you honestly think that if
what the raygunomics/truman world we live in
is a true democracy.look at what is going on
around you.So here's a guy w/ a .223 caliber
rifle who killed 9 people in our capital and that
is the justification for using domestic flight
surveillence.look at the polls that are online
when you sign on to your browser,they ask
such questions about eroding civil liberties so
that they can convince enough of a minority
that good people shouldn't have a problem w/
gun registration and ballistic tests from the
factory.Now picture this,we are going along
with a proghram that is setting up the
mechanism for a police state like none ever
imagined.Sure the next few decades could
resemble what our
parent's,grandparent's,and so on called
freedom.look at things like the rave act.It's just
hard for me to stomach the indoctrination of
America's youth that has been going
on.Freedom of press and expression?Well
think about this.Before plastic hemp was our
mainstay for oh so many things like the sails
that brought our ancestors over to this place in
search of refuge from the very things that are
going on today.Look at our attorney general
and how he can't even have his picture taken
in the DOJ because there are breasts
showing.Neo-Classical sculpture for christ
sake.Capitalism is great isn't it.have you
looked at how much of our labor has been
shipped over to cheaper countries so that we
can consume the latest greatest twist on a
theme.We have engineered food so that w/o
certain fertalizers and nutrients that they are
predisposed to require won't even produce
enough to feed us.Look at our water
supplies,they have been filled up w/ PCBs
and Heavy Metals,Exotic micro-organisms that
didn't even exist years before.Then look at
how we've been told we're bad people if we
don't chose a god and stick by that.Wow 3
houses of Abraham used against us as an
excuse to keep the truth from us that we are
all living beings in control of our own
destiny.We've been told that the other books
are against our own and that we must defend
it even if it means sacrificing our very
existance.When the truth is that we are much
too complex to control w/o a core belief
system based on so called morals and "care'
for the 'souls' of those that have strayed from
the flock.Look if you're around 30 yrs old go
find a high school senior and ask them what
the statue venus is about.they will tell you it's
agoddess from greek mythology.Not a
classical roman sculpture glorifying the
beauty of feminity,Even in the south i was
taught that abraham lincoln freed the slaves
even though white farmers would work black
people to a frazzle of who they really are.look
at how ghettos are controlled through drugs
and violence and money=power.Man food and
thought are power not the latest benz g Class
rental in the new big tymers video.Or the rental
jewelry that perpetuates the greed and
betrayal that runs rampant in ghettos in
search of the fat whips,the most hos,and the g
thug lifestyle as a fad.Come on this country
has too many skeletons in it's own closet to
be pushing around some guy w/ a low yield
nuke that a mac truck could barely
position.Look at how we buy a new computer
because we need it to take advantage of the
latest technology that comes the closest to
simulating real hardware.It's as if dance
production has become more of a video game
than an artform.Don't get me wrong,our
country in it's diversity is a beautiful place,but
we are all being sold(and buying it)mass
consumerism on every level.Look at how
some of us complain about how it was easier
to make good music before we could go buy
all the sounds we heard on the last fatboy
slim/goldie/bassment jaxx songs.look at how
we were taught to say no to drugs and had
cops come to our schools telling us that our
parents need help and to call the government
if we smell this or see that.Look at how alot of
us go through years of confusion in our own
sexuality because we've been sold the natural
is evil bit by the people who care about us.The
fact of the matter is we are being divided into
enough small groups that we are more easily
controlled and no matter how sensible our
arguments may be we must not question
those that have our "best interests" at
heart.Well I think that we as humans are a
reactionary organism and somehow our
natural gifts from the universe will triumph
over the true evil that try and make us out to be
that which we are not.No matter how they try
this great thing we have here called
technology holds the key to our future as a
loving kind world.Now we may have to destroy
those that chose to destroy us in the same
fashion that baby Bush wants to do to a man
in a culture that he doesn't understand.To say
that the Iraqis will surrender to the techno
force w/o a fight is the most assinine
argument i've ever heard in my life.The
romens tried it w/ the germanic tribes and
were slaughtered in place.The Spartans got
there's.The Soviet machine was run out of
autonomous regions as soon as their
weakness was exposed.The Austro
hungarian empire,The british Empire,The
Japanese Asian/Pacific Land grab,The Viking
raiders,The Spanish Conquistadors,all
suffered the fate of countless empires.Now
must we go down that same path hand in
hand w/ our flag waving bomb dropping
patriotism?I think not.Because my
friends,brothers,and sisters,we have the
ability to communicate with each other
through sound,picture,and words the very
things which make us unique and so worth
saving.Sure security is important but isn't
freedom and unity more so when all we have
to do is understand for once what the vicious
cycle of human domination is all about.I bleed
just like you,i love just like you,I cry just like
you,therefore I and I are the same.All of us
have the ability to fall into the traps that we
chose,I mean come on some of you know
how screwed up i got and what the end result
was.But you know what i'm not afraid to say
any longer that I have love for my friends and
those that I thought were my enemies when
all it was was an illusion/dillusion.I've learned
a great thing from myexperience on DT and
that is how even when we have the worst of
times in our little e-community this is really
and truly the best family i could ever hope to
have and I only want us all to find that which
we are seeking.Be it material
success,love,art,even just comrades in
technology.Because we are something
special and I think most of us know this yet we
let minor quibbles ruffle our feathers.Now I
know for a reformed thug that this all sounds
kind of sappy but i'm tired of watching the
division that is forced upon us by our puppet
masters and have finally realized that
this,even though we are a global
community,we can retain the very things that
make us unique and learn a little bit of
something from each other that we can carry
w/ us until our demise.For all of you that know
what you think you know of me I do want to say
that you guys have been a big help in getting
my sanity back from the bowells of
excess,and i love you cats for it.What we have
is absolutely the coolest little spot on the web
because we've been and are going through it
but we still have this place to escape the
crumbling towers of babylon as we spin off
into an alternate universe.So Big Upz to the
DT crew old,new,and future.I love you folks
and as long as i walk or roll around this planet
i'll do anything i can to help anyone
anytime.word is born.
Henry Manning aka JX3P0 aka Hank Dank
following your leader that you probably voted
for.But keep in mind that 1: a nuclear device
that would be manufactured in Iraq w/ the
technology they have available would be
roughly the size of an RV(caravan for you
blokes) so it wouldn't fit in a shipping
container.2.it would be an extremely low yield
weopon that would have a 100% destruction
radius of only a mile or so.3.it would be easily
detectable from sat recon the second the
thing was built no matter how deep it was
stashed..4.Iraq has no delivery vehicle for
such a weapon and really stand no chance of
getting one.Think about it no Third World
infrastructure can sustain the type of
development program and obtain the exotic
materials needed to develop such
weapons.5.It would be a rifle type weapon
which uses a projectile to split the initial atom
causing said chain reaction.6.The level of
refinement needed to sustain even a 1 kiloton
weapon would be impossible w/o a serious
reactor.7.All of that shit would glow from sat
recon and aerial recon like a christmas
tree.Now let's think about this in order to be
athreat to the US it would have to be able to
generate enough velocity to create an orbit
that would be of a higher quality than what the
russians and chinese have because the
geographic location using the best technology
available today either requires a Sub
launched platform or a shot over the pole.Now
the very best delivery vehicle iraq posses is
the SCUD B.Absolute shite.Couldn't lift the
weapon off it's launcher at all.The closest any
'rogue" nation has to this is the No Dong 3
stage rocket that N.Korea and iran
share(Shehab 3)Now in modern nuclear
warfare you would have to have a MIRV
warhead to do the business.Only
China,russia,France,The US,and GB have
these systems.Contrary to popular belief we
have defense measures in place to deal w/ a
single warhead threat.Now the only real
possible threat to US interests from an iraqi
nuke would be to Israel9i'm not sure how that
is considered US interest w/o the holocaust/
guilt factor coming into play.So really the only
true threat to the US directly from iraq would
be a bio/chemical weapon delivered in a well
enclosed area.It's not like iraq are going to fly
Mig 29s w/ the dispersion equipment over a
US city.As far as israel goes they already
announced this summer that they have an
ICBM capability.The only problem is no
MIRV.The very same detection equipment the
UN inspectors use to find these threats are
flying around and ship based and sat based
w/ a million times the sensitivity and would
spot any incoming threat from Iraq well before
it got here.I mean come on you think you can
just smuggle that kind of hot material into a
country like the US.Well you might
say,millions of tons of cocaine and lesser
amounts of heroin are smuggled in each
year.Well for one,it's not just some
unorganized crime syndicate bringing in
drugs to the US.Think about all the heroin and
cocaine that is on our streets right now.I
suggest you check out the swap program that
the forest service did a couple years back for
old tanker aircraft for "decommissioned" C-
130 aircraft.Look at the companies that are
"contractors" for these aircraft and then do the
math on how many are in service vs. how
many were swapped.Not trying to sound like a
conspiracy theorist here because there are
alot of kooks out there spouting off all sorts of
crap.But if you do some simple research into
the CIA and Air America and follow the trail
from vietnam on up to today you will find alot of
"retired" faces that have had convictions for all
sorts of bad stuff.Now if you really want to test
this out,ALL aircraft that sit on tarmacs at
airports are gassed up and ready to go.If you
know how to fly one go take one load up in a
thirdworld country and just try to get back in w/
o an AWACS dispatching an "escort" for
you.I'm so sick and tired of people taking what
they read and watch on TV as gospel.Now I'm
not saying that America is the most evil
country on the planet but to just listen to a guy
who can't even pronounce the word nuclear
tell you that he made a good case about
something he knows nothing about then you
aren't even bothering to get a second
unsanctioned opinion.Think of it like this.if it
were so easy to deliver a rudimentary low
yield nuke then pakistan and India would be a
memory.As far as black market nukes go think
about it.Have you ever heard of a russian or
former Combloc mafioso doing an up and up
deal.No they sell unrefined uranium to idiots
and fanatics that hav no clue as to how to
implement this stuff.As far as bio war and
other lovely pathogens go,just look at the
anthrax attacks as an example of how hard it
is to disperse w/ effectiveness.You would
have to have the capability to mill the weapon
to so few microns that the gear needed is very
custom and very secret.Look at the disaster in
the former soviet union as an example of how
few people would die w/ the real deal w/o a
proper dispersion mechanism.NBC warfare
isn't as simple as having a few pressure
cookers and milling machines of a
commercial variety to make an effective
weapon.Not to mention you have to have the
right atmospheric conditions and population
density to make such an attack as bio or
chemical.Do you really think that if it were so
easy to mount an effective attack that cave boy
would have used commercial aircraft to attack
us.No.Look as far as oil goes and power,don't
think for a second that just because to you
and me someone w/ billions in assets is
satisfied.Iraq because of it's geographic
location is a major stumbling block in the
caspian sea pipeline.just like Afghanistan
was the final key to the Unocal pipeline from
the baltic.Now that we've set up the
beginnings(provided our puppet govt. can
hold on to power) of the link through
Afghanistan it opens up former COMBLOC
oilfields for us.Look at what happened in
venezuela w/ Hugo chavez and the failed
coup.We were quick to embrace it until it was
quelled and there is only one reason
why.They are the second largest OPEC
producer in the world.Now if you feel that we
need to suck the world dry of it's oil in the
name of progress,that's your right.But
considering the real progress made in
Hydrogen fuel cell technology,the money we
spend on political manipulation could very
easily end our need for foreign and even
domestic petro products.Frankly
speaking,what we are witnessing is the last
great land rush on our planet.All for the
pockets of a select few.We have an
incarcaration rate that rivals any ever forced
upon a modern civilization in the US.We also
have a handful of texans,and Arkansaniacs
that have run our country for the past several
decades.Now do you honestly think that if
what the raygunomics/truman world we live in
is a true democracy.look at what is going on
around you.So here's a guy w/ a .223 caliber
rifle who killed 9 people in our capital and that
is the justification for using domestic flight
surveillence.look at the polls that are online
when you sign on to your browser,they ask
such questions about eroding civil liberties so
that they can convince enough of a minority
that good people shouldn't have a problem w/
gun registration and ballistic tests from the
factory.Now picture this,we are going along
with a proghram that is setting up the
mechanism for a police state like none ever
imagined.Sure the next few decades could
resemble what our
parent's,grandparent's,and so on called
freedom.look at things like the rave act.It's just
hard for me to stomach the indoctrination of
America's youth that has been going
on.Freedom of press and expression?Well
think about this.Before plastic hemp was our
mainstay for oh so many things like the sails
that brought our ancestors over to this place in
search of refuge from the very things that are
going on today.Look at our attorney general
and how he can't even have his picture taken
in the DOJ because there are breasts
showing.Neo-Classical sculpture for christ
sake.Capitalism is great isn't it.have you
looked at how much of our labor has been
shipped over to cheaper countries so that we
can consume the latest greatest twist on a
theme.We have engineered food so that w/o
certain fertalizers and nutrients that they are
predisposed to require won't even produce
enough to feed us.Look at our water
supplies,they have been filled up w/ PCBs
and Heavy Metals,Exotic micro-organisms that
didn't even exist years before.Then look at
how we've been told we're bad people if we
don't chose a god and stick by that.Wow 3
houses of Abraham used against us as an
excuse to keep the truth from us that we are
all living beings in control of our own
destiny.We've been told that the other books
are against our own and that we must defend
it even if it means sacrificing our very
existance.When the truth is that we are much
too complex to control w/o a core belief
system based on so called morals and "care'
for the 'souls' of those that have strayed from
the flock.Look if you're around 30 yrs old go
find a high school senior and ask them what
the statue venus is about.they will tell you it's
agoddess from greek mythology.Not a
classical roman sculpture glorifying the
beauty of feminity,Even in the south i was
taught that abraham lincoln freed the slaves
even though white farmers would work black
people to a frazzle of who they really are.look
at how ghettos are controlled through drugs
and violence and money=power.Man food and
thought are power not the latest benz g Class
rental in the new big tymers video.Or the rental
jewelry that perpetuates the greed and
betrayal that runs rampant in ghettos in
search of the fat whips,the most hos,and the g
thug lifestyle as a fad.Come on this country
has too many skeletons in it's own closet to
be pushing around some guy w/ a low yield
nuke that a mac truck could barely
position.Look at how we buy a new computer
because we need it to take advantage of the
latest technology that comes the closest to
simulating real hardware.It's as if dance
production has become more of a video game
than an artform.Don't get me wrong,our
country in it's diversity is a beautiful place,but
we are all being sold(and buying it)mass
consumerism on every level.Look at how
some of us complain about how it was easier
to make good music before we could go buy
all the sounds we heard on the last fatboy
slim/goldie/bassment jaxx songs.look at how
we were taught to say no to drugs and had
cops come to our schools telling us that our
parents need help and to call the government
if we smell this or see that.Look at how alot of
us go through years of confusion in our own
sexuality because we've been sold the natural
is evil bit by the people who care about us.The
fact of the matter is we are being divided into
enough small groups that we are more easily
controlled and no matter how sensible our
arguments may be we must not question
those that have our "best interests" at
heart.Well I think that we as humans are a
reactionary organism and somehow our
natural gifts from the universe will triumph
over the true evil that try and make us out to be
that which we are not.No matter how they try
this great thing we have here called
technology holds the key to our future as a
loving kind world.Now we may have to destroy
those that chose to destroy us in the same
fashion that baby Bush wants to do to a man
in a culture that he doesn't understand.To say
that the Iraqis will surrender to the techno
force w/o a fight is the most assinine
argument i've ever heard in my life.The
romens tried it w/ the germanic tribes and
were slaughtered in place.The Spartans got
there's.The Soviet machine was run out of
autonomous regions as soon as their
weakness was exposed.The Austro
hungarian empire,The british Empire,The
Japanese Asian/Pacific Land grab,The Viking
raiders,The Spanish Conquistadors,all
suffered the fate of countless empires.Now
must we go down that same path hand in
hand w/ our flag waving bomb dropping
patriotism?I think not.Because my
friends,brothers,and sisters,we have the
ability to communicate with each other
through sound,picture,and words the very
things which make us unique and so worth
saving.Sure security is important but isn't
freedom and unity more so when all we have
to do is understand for once what the vicious
cycle of human domination is all about.I bleed
just like you,i love just like you,I cry just like
you,therefore I and I are the same.All of us
have the ability to fall into the traps that we
chose,I mean come on some of you know
how screwed up i got and what the end result
was.But you know what i'm not afraid to say
any longer that I have love for my friends and
those that I thought were my enemies when
all it was was an illusion/dillusion.I've learned
a great thing from myexperience on DT and
that is how even when we have the worst of
times in our little e-community this is really
and truly the best family i could ever hope to
have and I only want us all to find that which
we are seeking.Be it material
success,love,art,even just comrades in
technology.Because we are something
special and I think most of us know this yet we
let minor quibbles ruffle our feathers.Now I
know for a reformed thug that this all sounds
kind of sappy but i'm tired of watching the
division that is forced upon us by our puppet
masters and have finally realized that
this,even though we are a global
community,we can retain the very things that
make us unique and learn a little bit of
something from each other that we can carry
w/ us until our demise.For all of you that know
what you think you know of me I do want to say
that you guys have been a big help in getting
my sanity back from the bowells of
excess,and i love you cats for it.What we have
is absolutely the coolest little spot on the web
because we've been and are going through it
but we still have this place to escape the
crumbling towers of babylon as we spin off
into an alternate universe.So Big Upz to the
DT crew old,new,and future.I love you folks
and as long as i walk or roll around this planet
i'll do anything i can to help anyone
anytime.word is born.
Henry Manning aka JX3P0 aka Hank Dank
Message 12/41 19-Oct-02 @ 10:21 AM - RE: why war
ah!... and we love you too H - but er..... learn how to make paragraph breaks mebbe
- but er..... learn how to make paragraph breaks mebbe
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 13/41 19-Oct-02 @ 10:21 AM - RE: why war
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
you really should try the double spacing to create a paragraph thing...
like this...
like this...
Message 14/41 19-Oct-02 @ 10:31 AM - RE: why war
More of a channel/typing exercise.I'm not
much on grammatical technique.Just was
thinking about my life over a glass of water
and a cigarette.
So much for my editorial career
much on grammatical technique.Just was
thinking about my life over a glass of water
and a cigarette.
So much for my editorial career
Message 15/41 19-Oct-02 @ 10:36 AM - RE: why war
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
For JXP30: That was such an awesome rant, and such a moving one that I have broken the paras up. Go dude.
Ok,look i'm not going to say you're a moron for following your leader that you probably voted for.But keep in mind that
1: a nuclear device that would be manufactured in Iraq w/ the technology they have available would be roughly the size of an RV(caravan for you blokes) so it wouldn't fit in a shipping container.
2.it would be an extremely low yield weopon that would have a 100% destruction radius of only a mile or so.
3.it would be easily detectable from sat recon the second the thing was built no matter how deep it was stashed..
4.Iraq has no delivery vehicle for such a weapon and really stand no chance of getting one.Think about it no Third World infrastructure can sustain the type of development program and obtain the exotic materials needed to develop such weapons.
5.It would be a rifle type weapon which uses a projectile to split the initial atom causing said chain reaction.
6.The level of refinement needed to sustain even a 1 kiloton weapon would be impossible w/o a serious reactor.
7.All of that shit would glow from sat recon and aerial recon like a christmas tree.
Now let's think about this in order to be a threat to the US it would have to be able to generate enough velocity to create an orbit that would be of a higher quality than what the russians and chinese have because the geographic location using the best technology available today either requires a Sub launched platform or a shot over the pole.
Now the very best delivery vehicle iraq posses is the SCUD B.Absolute shite.Couldn't lift the weapon off it's launcher at all.
The closest any 'rogue" nation has to this is the No Dong 3 stage rocket that N.Korea and iran share(Shehab 3)Now in modern nuclear warfare you would have to have a MIRV warhead to do the business.
Only China,russia,France,The US,and GB have these systems.Contrary to popular belief we have defense measures in place to deal w/ a single warhead threat.
Now the only real possible threat to US interests from an iraqi nuke would be to Israel i'm not sure how that is considered US interest w/o the holocaust/ guilt factor coming into play.
So really the only true threat to the US directly from iraq would be a bio/chemical weapon delivered in a well enclosed area.It's not like iraq are going to fly Mig 29s w/ the dispersion equipment over a US city.
As far as israel goes they already announced this summer that they have an ICBM capability.The only problem is no MIRV.
The very same detection equipment the UN inspectors use to find these threats are flying around and ship based and sat based w/ a million times the sensitivity and would spot any incoming threat from Iraq well before it got here.I mean come on you think you can just smuggle that kind of hot material into a country like the US.
Well you might say,millions of tons of cocaine and lesser amounts of heroin are smuggled in each year. Well for one,it's not just some unorganized crime syndicate bringing in drugs to the US.Think about all the heroin and cocaine that is on our streets right now.I suggest you check out the swap program that the forest service did a couple years back for old tanker aircraft for "decommissioned" C- 130 aircraft.Look at the companies that are "contractors" for these aircraft and then do the math on how many are in service vs. how many were swapped.
Not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist here because there are alot of kooks out there spouting off all sorts of crap.But if you do some simple research into the CIA and Air America and follow the trail from vietnam on up to today you will find alot of "retired" faces that have had convictions for all sorts of bad stuff.
Now if you really want to test this out,ALL aircraft that sit on tarmacs at airports are gassed up and ready to go.If you know how to fly one go take one load up in a thirdworld country and just try to get back in w/ o an AWACS dispatching an "escort" for you.I'm so sick and tired of people taking what they read and watch on TV as gospel.
Now I'm not saying that America is the most evil country on the planet but to just listen to a guy who can't even pronounce the word nuclear tell you that he made a good case about something he knows nothing about then you aren't even bothering to get a second unsanctioned opinion.
Think of it like this.if it were so easy to deliver a rudimentary low yield nuke then pakistan and India would be a memory.As far as black market nukes go think about it.Have you ever heard of a russian or former Combloc mafioso doing an up and up deal.No they sell unrefined uranium to idiots and fanatics that hav no clue as to how to implement this stuff.
As far as bio war and other lovely pathogens go,just look at the anthrax attacks as an example of how hard it is to disperse w/ effectiveness.
You would have to have the capability to mill the weapon to so few microns that the gear needed is very custom and very secret.Look at the disaster in the former soviet union as an example of how few people would die w/ the real deal w/o a proper dispersion mechanism.NBC warfare isn't as simple as having a few pressure cookers and milling machines of a commercial variety to make an effective weapon.Not to mention you have to have the right atmospheric conditions and population density to make such an attack as bio or chemical.
Do you really think that if it were so easy to mount an effective attack that cave boy would have used commercial aircraft to attack us.No.Look as far as oil goes and power,don't think for a second that just because to you and me someone w/ billions in assets is satisfied.
Iraq because of it's geographic location is a major stumbling block in the caspian sea pipeline.just like Afghanistan was the final key to the Unocal pipeline from the baltic.Now that we've set up the beginnings(provided our puppet govt. can hold on to power) of the link through Afghanistan it opens up former COMBLOC oilfields for us.
Look at what happened in venezuela w/ Hugo chavez and the failed coup.We were quick to embrace it until it was quelled and there is only one reason why.They are the second largest OPEC producer in the world.
Now if you feel that we need to suck the world dry of it's oil in the name of progress,that's your right.But considering the real progress made in Hydrogen fuel cell technology,the money we spend on political manipulation could very easily end our need for foreign and even domestic petro products.Frankly speaking,what we are witnessing is the last great land rush on our planet.All for the pockets of a select few.
We have an incarcaration rate that rivals any ever forced upon a modern civilization in the US.We also have a handful of texans,and Arkansaniacs that have run our country for the past several decades.Now do you honestly think that if what the raygunomics/truman world we live in is a true democracy.look at what is going on around you.So here's a guy w/ a .223 caliber rifle who killed 9 people in our capital and that is the justification for using domestic flight surveillence.
look at the polls that are online when you sign on to your browser,they ask such questions about eroding civil liberties so that they can convince enough of a minority that good people shouldn't have a problem w/ gun registration and ballistic tests from the factory.
Now picture this,we are going along with a proghram that is setting up the mechanism for a police state like none ever imagined.Sure the next few decades could resemble what our parent's,grandparent's,and so on called freedom.look at things like the rave act.
It's just hard for me to stomach the indoctrination of America's youth that has been going on.Freedom of press and expression?
Well think about this. Before plastic hemp was our mainstay for oh so many things like the sails that brought our ancestors over to this place in search of refuge from the very things that are going on today.
Look at our attorney general and how he can't even have his picture taken in the DOJ because there are breasts showing.Neo-Classical sculpture for christ sake.
Capitalism is great isn't it.have you looked at how much of our labor has been shipped over to cheaper countries so that we can consume the latest greatest twist on a theme.
We have engineered food so that w/o certain fertalizers and nutrients that they are predisposed to require won't even produce enough to feed us.Look at our water supplies,they have been filled up w/ PCBs and Heavy Metals,Exotic micro-organisms that didn't even exist years before.Then look at how we've been told we're bad people if we don't chose a god and stick by that.
Wow 3 houses of Abraham used against us as an excuse to keep the truth from us that we are all living beings in control of our own destiny.We've been told that the other books are against our own and that we must defend it even if it means sacrificing our very existance.When the truth is that we are much too complex to control w/o a core belief system based on so called morals and "care' for the 'souls' of those that have strayed from the flock.
Look if you're around 30 yrs old go find a high school senior and ask them what the statue venus is about.they will tell you it's agoddess from greek mythology.Not a classical roman sculpture glorifying the beauty of feminity,
Even in the south i was taught that abraham lincoln freed the slaves even though white farmers would work black people to a frazzle of who they really are.look at how ghettos are controlled through drugs and violence and money=power.Man food and thought are power not the latest benz g Class rental in the new big tymers video.Or the rental jewelry that perpetuates the greed and betrayal that runs rampant in ghettos in search of the fat whips,the most hos,and the g thug lifestyle as a fad.
Come on this country has too many skeletons in it's own closet to be pushing around some guy w/ a low yield nuke that a mac truck could barely position.Look at how we buy a new computer because we need it to take advantage of the latest technology that comes the closest to simulating real hardware.It's as if dance production has become more of a video game than an artform.
Don't get me wrong,our country in it's diversity is a beautiful place,but we are all being sold(and buying it)mass consumerism on every level.
Look at how some of us complain about how it was easier to make good music before we could go buy all the sounds we heard on the last fatboy slim/goldie/bassment jaxx songs.
look at how we were taught to say no to drugs and had cops come to our schools telling us that our parents need help and to call the government if we smell this or see that.
Look at how alot of us go through years of confusion in our own sexuality because we've been sold the natural is evil bit by the people who care about us.The fact of the matter is we are being divided into enough small groups that we are more easily controlled and no matter how sensible our arguments may be we must not question those that have our "best interests" at heart.
Well I think that we as humans are a reactionary organism and somehow our natural gifts from the universe will triumph over the true evil that try and make us out to be that which we are not.No matter how they try this great thing we have here called technology holds the key to our future as a loving kind world.
Now we may have to destroy those that chose to destroy us in the same fashion that baby Bush wants to do to a man in a culture that he doesn't understand.To say that the Iraqis will surrender to the techno force w/o a fight is the most assinine argument i've ever heard in my life.
The romens tried it w/ the germanic tribes and were slaughtered in place.The Spartans got there's.The Soviet machine was run out of autonomous regions as soon as their weakness was exposed.
The Austro hungarian empire,The british Empire,The Japanese Asian/Pacific Land grab,The Viking raiders,The Spanish Conquistadors,all suffered the fate of countless empires.
Now must we go down that same path hand in hand w/ our flag waving bomb dropping patriotism?
I think not.Because my friends,brothers,and sisters,we have the ability to communicate with each other through sound,picture,and words the very things which make us unique and so worth saving.
Sure security is important but isn't freedom and unity more so when all we have to do is understand for once what the vicious cycle of human domination is all about.
I bleed just like you,i love just like you,I cry just like you,therefore I and I are the same.
All of us have the ability to fall into the traps that we chose,I mean come on some of you know how screwed up i got and what the end result was.But you know what i'm not afraid to say any longer that I have love for my friends and those that I thought were my enemies when all it was was an illusion/dillusion.
I've learned a great thing from myexperience on DT and that is how even when we have the worst of times in our little e-community this is really and truly the best family i could ever hope to have and I only want us all to find that which we are seeking.
Be it material success,love,art,even just comrades in technology.Because we are something special and I think most of us know this yet we let minor quibbles ruffle our feathers.
Now I know for a reformed thug that this all sounds kind of sappy but i'm tired of watching the division that is forced upon us by our puppet masters and have finally realized that this,even though we are a global community,we can retain the very things that make us unique and learn a little bit of something from each other that we can carry w/ us until our demise.
For all of you that know what you think you know of me I do want to say that you guys have been a big help in getting my sanity back from the bowells of excess,and i love you cats for it.
What we have is absolutely the coolest little spot on the web because we've been and are going through it but we still have this place to escape the crumbling towers of babylon as we spin off into an alternate universe.
So Big Upz to the DT crew old,new,and future.I love you folks and as long as i walk or roll around this planet i'll do anything i can to help anyone anytime.word is born.
Henry Manning aka JX3P0 aka Hank Dank
Ok,look i'm not going to say you're a moron for following your leader that you probably voted for.But keep in mind that
1: a nuclear device that would be manufactured in Iraq w/ the technology they have available would be roughly the size of an RV(caravan for you blokes) so it wouldn't fit in a shipping container.
2.it would be an extremely low yield weopon that would have a 100% destruction radius of only a mile or so.
3.it would be easily detectable from sat recon the second the thing was built no matter how deep it was stashed..
4.Iraq has no delivery vehicle for such a weapon and really stand no chance of getting one.Think about it no Third World infrastructure can sustain the type of development program and obtain the exotic materials needed to develop such weapons.
5.It would be a rifle type weapon which uses a projectile to split the initial atom causing said chain reaction.
6.The level of refinement needed to sustain even a 1 kiloton weapon would be impossible w/o a serious reactor.
7.All of that shit would glow from sat recon and aerial recon like a christmas tree.
Now let's think about this in order to be a threat to the US it would have to be able to generate enough velocity to create an orbit that would be of a higher quality than what the russians and chinese have because the geographic location using the best technology available today either requires a Sub launched platform or a shot over the pole.
Now the very best delivery vehicle iraq posses is the SCUD B.Absolute shite.Couldn't lift the weapon off it's launcher at all.
The closest any 'rogue" nation has to this is the No Dong 3 stage rocket that N.Korea and iran share(Shehab 3)Now in modern nuclear warfare you would have to have a MIRV warhead to do the business.
Only China,russia,France,The US,and GB have these systems.Contrary to popular belief we have defense measures in place to deal w/ a single warhead threat.
Now the only real possible threat to US interests from an iraqi nuke would be to Israel i'm not sure how that is considered US interest w/o the holocaust/ guilt factor coming into play.
So really the only true threat to the US directly from iraq would be a bio/chemical weapon delivered in a well enclosed area.It's not like iraq are going to fly Mig 29s w/ the dispersion equipment over a US city.
As far as israel goes they already announced this summer that they have an ICBM capability.The only problem is no MIRV.
The very same detection equipment the UN inspectors use to find these threats are flying around and ship based and sat based w/ a million times the sensitivity and would spot any incoming threat from Iraq well before it got here.I mean come on you think you can just smuggle that kind of hot material into a country like the US.
Well you might say,millions of tons of cocaine and lesser amounts of heroin are smuggled in each year. Well for one,it's not just some unorganized crime syndicate bringing in drugs to the US.Think about all the heroin and cocaine that is on our streets right now.I suggest you check out the swap program that the forest service did a couple years back for old tanker aircraft for "decommissioned" C- 130 aircraft.Look at the companies that are "contractors" for these aircraft and then do the math on how many are in service vs. how many were swapped.
Not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist here because there are alot of kooks out there spouting off all sorts of crap.But if you do some simple research into the CIA and Air America and follow the trail from vietnam on up to today you will find alot of "retired" faces that have had convictions for all sorts of bad stuff.
Now if you really want to test this out,ALL aircraft that sit on tarmacs at airports are gassed up and ready to go.If you know how to fly one go take one load up in a thirdworld country and just try to get back in w/ o an AWACS dispatching an "escort" for you.I'm so sick and tired of people taking what they read and watch on TV as gospel.
Now I'm not saying that America is the most evil country on the planet but to just listen to a guy who can't even pronounce the word nuclear tell you that he made a good case about something he knows nothing about then you aren't even bothering to get a second unsanctioned opinion.
Think of it like this.if it were so easy to deliver a rudimentary low yield nuke then pakistan and India would be a memory.As far as black market nukes go think about it.Have you ever heard of a russian or former Combloc mafioso doing an up and up deal.No they sell unrefined uranium to idiots and fanatics that hav no clue as to how to implement this stuff.
As far as bio war and other lovely pathogens go,just look at the anthrax attacks as an example of how hard it is to disperse w/ effectiveness.
You would have to have the capability to mill the weapon to so few microns that the gear needed is very custom and very secret.Look at the disaster in the former soviet union as an example of how few people would die w/ the real deal w/o a proper dispersion mechanism.NBC warfare isn't as simple as having a few pressure cookers and milling machines of a commercial variety to make an effective weapon.Not to mention you have to have the right atmospheric conditions and population density to make such an attack as bio or chemical.
Do you really think that if it were so easy to mount an effective attack that cave boy would have used commercial aircraft to attack us.No.Look as far as oil goes and power,don't think for a second that just because to you and me someone w/ billions in assets is satisfied.
Iraq because of it's geographic location is a major stumbling block in the caspian sea pipeline.just like Afghanistan was the final key to the Unocal pipeline from the baltic.Now that we've set up the beginnings(provided our puppet govt. can hold on to power) of the link through Afghanistan it opens up former COMBLOC oilfields for us.
Look at what happened in venezuela w/ Hugo chavez and the failed coup.We were quick to embrace it until it was quelled and there is only one reason why.They are the second largest OPEC producer in the world.
Now if you feel that we need to suck the world dry of it's oil in the name of progress,that's your right.But considering the real progress made in Hydrogen fuel cell technology,the money we spend on political manipulation could very easily end our need for foreign and even domestic petro products.Frankly speaking,what we are witnessing is the last great land rush on our planet.All for the pockets of a select few.
We have an incarcaration rate that rivals any ever forced upon a modern civilization in the US.We also have a handful of texans,and Arkansaniacs that have run our country for the past several decades.Now do you honestly think that if what the raygunomics/truman world we live in is a true democracy.look at what is going on around you.So here's a guy w/ a .223 caliber rifle who killed 9 people in our capital and that is the justification for using domestic flight surveillence.
look at the polls that are online when you sign on to your browser,they ask such questions about eroding civil liberties so that they can convince enough of a minority that good people shouldn't have a problem w/ gun registration and ballistic tests from the factory.
Now picture this,we are going along with a proghram that is setting up the mechanism for a police state like none ever imagined.Sure the next few decades could resemble what our parent's,grandparent's,and so on called freedom.look at things like the rave act.
It's just hard for me to stomach the indoctrination of America's youth that has been going on.Freedom of press and expression?
Well think about this. Before plastic hemp was our mainstay for oh so many things like the sails that brought our ancestors over to this place in search of refuge from the very things that are going on today.
Look at our attorney general and how he can't even have his picture taken in the DOJ because there are breasts showing.Neo-Classical sculpture for christ sake.
Capitalism is great isn't it.have you looked at how much of our labor has been shipped over to cheaper countries so that we can consume the latest greatest twist on a theme.
We have engineered food so that w/o certain fertalizers and nutrients that they are predisposed to require won't even produce enough to feed us.Look at our water supplies,they have been filled up w/ PCBs and Heavy Metals,Exotic micro-organisms that didn't even exist years before.Then look at how we've been told we're bad people if we don't chose a god and stick by that.
Wow 3 houses of Abraham used against us as an excuse to keep the truth from us that we are all living beings in control of our own destiny.We've been told that the other books are against our own and that we must defend it even if it means sacrificing our very existance.When the truth is that we are much too complex to control w/o a core belief system based on so called morals and "care' for the 'souls' of those that have strayed from the flock.
Look if you're around 30 yrs old go find a high school senior and ask them what the statue venus is about.they will tell you it's agoddess from greek mythology.Not a classical roman sculpture glorifying the beauty of feminity,
Even in the south i was taught that abraham lincoln freed the slaves even though white farmers would work black people to a frazzle of who they really are.look at how ghettos are controlled through drugs and violence and money=power.Man food and thought are power not the latest benz g Class rental in the new big tymers video.Or the rental jewelry that perpetuates the greed and betrayal that runs rampant in ghettos in search of the fat whips,the most hos,and the g thug lifestyle as a fad.
Come on this country has too many skeletons in it's own closet to be pushing around some guy w/ a low yield nuke that a mac truck could barely position.Look at how we buy a new computer because we need it to take advantage of the latest technology that comes the closest to simulating real hardware.It's as if dance production has become more of a video game than an artform.
Don't get me wrong,our country in it's diversity is a beautiful place,but we are all being sold(and buying it)mass consumerism on every level.
Look at how some of us complain about how it was easier to make good music before we could go buy all the sounds we heard on the last fatboy slim/goldie/bassment jaxx songs.
look at how we were taught to say no to drugs and had cops come to our schools telling us that our parents need help and to call the government if we smell this or see that.
Look at how alot of us go through years of confusion in our own sexuality because we've been sold the natural is evil bit by the people who care about us.The fact of the matter is we are being divided into enough small groups that we are more easily controlled and no matter how sensible our arguments may be we must not question those that have our "best interests" at heart.
Well I think that we as humans are a reactionary organism and somehow our natural gifts from the universe will triumph over the true evil that try and make us out to be that which we are not.No matter how they try this great thing we have here called technology holds the key to our future as a loving kind world.
Now we may have to destroy those that chose to destroy us in the same fashion that baby Bush wants to do to a man in a culture that he doesn't understand.To say that the Iraqis will surrender to the techno force w/o a fight is the most assinine argument i've ever heard in my life.
The romens tried it w/ the germanic tribes and were slaughtered in place.The Spartans got there's.The Soviet machine was run out of autonomous regions as soon as their weakness was exposed.
The Austro hungarian empire,The british Empire,The Japanese Asian/Pacific Land grab,The Viking raiders,The Spanish Conquistadors,all suffered the fate of countless empires.
Now must we go down that same path hand in hand w/ our flag waving bomb dropping patriotism?
I think not.Because my friends,brothers,and sisters,we have the ability to communicate with each other through sound,picture,and words the very things which make us unique and so worth saving.
Sure security is important but isn't freedom and unity more so when all we have to do is understand for once what the vicious cycle of human domination is all about.
I bleed just like you,i love just like you,I cry just like you,therefore I and I are the same.
All of us have the ability to fall into the traps that we chose,I mean come on some of you know how screwed up i got and what the end result was.But you know what i'm not afraid to say any longer that I have love for my friends and those that I thought were my enemies when all it was was an illusion/dillusion.
I've learned a great thing from myexperience on DT and that is how even when we have the worst of times in our little e-community this is really and truly the best family i could ever hope to have and I only want us all to find that which we are seeking.
Be it material success,love,art,even just comrades in technology.Because we are something special and I think most of us know this yet we let minor quibbles ruffle our feathers.
Now I know for a reformed thug that this all sounds kind of sappy but i'm tired of watching the division that is forced upon us by our puppet masters and have finally realized that this,even though we are a global community,we can retain the very things that make us unique and learn a little bit of something from each other that we can carry w/ us until our demise.
For all of you that know what you think you know of me I do want to say that you guys have been a big help in getting my sanity back from the bowells of excess,and i love you cats for it.
What we have is absolutely the coolest little spot on the web because we've been and are going through it but we still have this place to escape the crumbling towers of babylon as we spin off into an alternate universe.
So Big Upz to the DT crew old,new,and future.I love you folks and as long as i walk or roll around this planet i'll do anything i can to help anyone anytime.word is born.
Henry Manning aka JX3P0 aka Hank Dank
Message 16/41 19-Oct-02 @ 04:54 PM - RE: why war
i'm not sure if i'm exactly suggesting anything by saying so, but those few years back there i had some talks with hank on phone.. perhaps due to your personal experience, your voice has an evocative character, ie. spoken word of the above would be on the level with The Best in spoken word. if you can get a medium better than a crappy minidisc held next to a receiver.
thanks for those breaks zazza..
thanks for those breaks zazza..
Message 17/41 19-Oct-02 @ 05:22 PM - RE: why war
what the fuck ever... you're on about a lot of stuff, some of which I happen to agree with, but it misses the point... this is about world security, and America must be engaged, for many reasons.
my only problem was that some people characterize it as "Bush wants oil"...
sheesh! gimme a fucking break...
my only problem was that some people characterize it as "Bush wants oil"...
sheesh! gimme a fucking break...
Message 18/41 19-Oct-02 @ 05:29 PM - RE: why war
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Ghost: 'this is about world security'
So where's the big 'resolution' about North Korea then?
Of course it is about oil, without cheap oil the western economies fall to bits instantly..
So where's the big 'resolution' about North Korea then?
Of course it is about oil, without cheap oil the western economies fall to bits instantly..
Message 19/41 19-Oct-02 @ 07:32 PM - RE: why war
why war? cos we got armies (not legsies)).
Top rant JX3, you didn't breathe in at any point
Top rant JX3, you didn't breathe in at any point
Message 20/41 19-Oct-02 @ 09:39 PM - RE: why war
Jx,
Although we are truly on the same side and I don't want war either, ther are a couple of points that I'd like to refute, in the hopes of giving folks pause to think.
1 The Ukraine had 200 nuclear warheads removed from its inventory. Not 2, TWO FUCKING HUNDRED!!!!!!!!!, and these are not accounted for. We do not know where they are. These aren't RV sized either. They are the real deal that sat on top of Moscow's city killers. MRVs, completely ready to go, all they needed were a target and to be launched. No word on the delivery systems, but to my knowledge, these warheads ar not much bigger than a vw van. I don't have any solid info, so it's mostly rumor, but it's been a joke in the "intelligence" community for many years that with a few mil you could buy a nuke in Eastern Europe, ready to go, you just had to have the deilivery system. Well, this thing will fit in a cargo container, on a mack truck, on a train, on a plane. They're not suitcased size, but they are moveable, and they are for sale, and I'd be fooling myself if I thought Saddam and a few others hadn't made use of this theft.
North Korea only has two bombs cuz that's all they can afford to make and can't afford to but any. That and maybe the russian mafia fucking hates them. But Saddam had plenty of loot, and as far as I know hasn't pissed them off too badly, except by buying our arms back in the day to fight Iran, and who can blame him? Would you rather have an M16, or an AK47? We also offered him a better deal I'm sure.
The point is that those bomb ARE out there, and it's anybody's guess as to who has them, and where they are. This isn't some cooked up shit. PRAVDA printed it, and told their own people about this as well as the rest of the world, but folks forget so fast when they have to worry about one or two gun lobbiests dropping civilians one at a time on our home turf, you know what I mean? Nuclear contamination three states away is no big deal, as long as I can still get to 7-11 to get my bag of chips and a case of beer to watch the game tonight, before beating my kids, kicking my dog, and gettin some from the wife.
The fact of the matter is that the real danger is out there, but most of it is much closer to home than most realize and those that do know are willing to admit. Do you have any idea how many nuclear accidents we've actually had here on our own soil? Just take a look at the terms Broken Arrow, Bent Spear, and a couple others, and see for yourself. Nukes are bad all around, and I don't think the world needs nearly as many as it has, unless it's for the purpose of diverting or destroying some celestial body that threatens our entire planet.
We need to stop warring on each other and start working on the bigger equation here. Too many non-resolving functions in this thing to get a workeable system of values and answers to problems.
$.02
Nothing you folks didn't know already.
Ape
Although we are truly on the same side and I don't want war either, ther are a couple of points that I'd like to refute, in the hopes of giving folks pause to think.
1 The Ukraine had 200 nuclear warheads removed from its inventory. Not 2, TWO FUCKING HUNDRED!!!!!!!!!, and these are not accounted for. We do not know where they are. These aren't RV sized either. They are the real deal that sat on top of Moscow's city killers. MRVs, completely ready to go, all they needed were a target and to be launched. No word on the delivery systems, but to my knowledge, these warheads ar not much bigger than a vw van. I don't have any solid info, so it's mostly rumor, but it's been a joke in the "intelligence" community for many years that with a few mil you could buy a nuke in Eastern Europe, ready to go, you just had to have the deilivery system. Well, this thing will fit in a cargo container, on a mack truck, on a train, on a plane. They're not suitcased size, but they are moveable, and they are for sale, and I'd be fooling myself if I thought Saddam and a few others hadn't made use of this theft.
North Korea only has two bombs cuz that's all they can afford to make and can't afford to but any. That and maybe the russian mafia fucking hates them. But Saddam had plenty of loot, and as far as I know hasn't pissed them off too badly, except by buying our arms back in the day to fight Iran, and who can blame him? Would you rather have an M16, or an AK47? We also offered him a better deal I'm sure.
The point is that those bomb ARE out there, and it's anybody's guess as to who has them, and where they are. This isn't some cooked up shit. PRAVDA printed it, and told their own people about this as well as the rest of the world, but folks forget so fast when they have to worry about one or two gun lobbiests dropping civilians one at a time on our home turf, you know what I mean? Nuclear contamination three states away is no big deal, as long as I can still get to 7-11 to get my bag of chips and a case of beer to watch the game tonight, before beating my kids, kicking my dog, and gettin some from the wife.
The fact of the matter is that the real danger is out there, but most of it is much closer to home than most realize and those that do know are willing to admit. Do you have any idea how many nuclear accidents we've actually had here on our own soil? Just take a look at the terms Broken Arrow, Bent Spear, and a couple others, and see for yourself. Nukes are bad all around, and I don't think the world needs nearly as many as it has, unless it's for the purpose of diverting or destroying some celestial body that threatens our entire planet.
We need to stop warring on each other and start working on the bigger equation here. Too many non-resolving functions in this thing to get a workeable system of values and answers to problems.
$.02
Nothing you folks didn't know already.
Ape
Message 21/41 19-Oct-02 @ 10:03 PM - RE: why war
wake the fuck up! there is no america, there is no china, there is no afgahnistan. come out from under your white sheet! i know who's under there!
Message 22/41 20-Oct-02 @ 12:49 AM - RE: why war
it amazes me that you people are so in the know.
H that was a HELLA rant, and pretty in eloquent. you owe zazza some money for the editorial skills (even tho he left your mistypes in there)
H that was a HELLA rant, and pretty in eloquent. you owe zazza some money for the editorial skills (even tho he left your mistypes in there
)
Message 23/41 20-Oct-02 @ 12:37 PM - RE: why war
"world security" lol !!! - ha ha ha hahaha ahahaha hahahaha ahaha ahhahah....
Message 24/41 20-Oct-02 @ 12:38 PM - RE: why war
hang on what about.... "peace, freedom & democracy"
ha hahahaha ahaha ahah aha aha hahahahahaha ahahhaahahahaha haahahahhahahha lol!!!
ha hahahaha ahaha ahah aha aha hahahahahaha ahahhaahahahaha haahahahhahahha lol!!!
Message 25/41 20-Oct-02 @ 06:49 PM - RE: why war
well it's certainly NOT about peace freedom and democracy...
look, I'm not an idiot or a moron, and I didn't vote for him. I'm just trying to inject a little reality here. sorry all, but it IS about world security... that's why the current forum is the UN, and all these countries are about to agree to a new resolution. it's called the SECURITY council. a lot of people in many countries are involved and we all have a stake in what happens..... pray for peace.
jeezus, what more evidence do you need that this is a security issue with the whole world's involvement? it's in the UN!
so sorry, it's just not about Bush sending Iowa farmboys to die to line his pockets.... do you realize how insane that sounds?
I don't want war, and I see this current crisis as the culmination of terrible foreign policy over the last 20 years.... I think Bush is a lousy president, but there's no conpiracy like that going on... the truth is bad enough....
look, I'm not an idiot or a moron, and I didn't vote for him. I'm just trying to inject a little reality here. sorry all, but it IS about world security... that's why the current forum is the UN, and all these countries are about to agree to a new resolution. it's called the SECURITY council. a lot of people in many countries are involved and we all have a stake in what happens..... pray for peace.
jeezus, what more evidence do you need that this is a security issue with the whole world's involvement? it's in the UN!
so sorry, it's just not about Bush sending Iowa farmboys to die to line his pockets.... do you realize how insane that sounds?
I don't want war, and I see this current crisis as the culmination of terrible foreign policy over the last 20 years.... I think Bush is a lousy president, but there's no conpiracy like that going on... the truth is bad enough....
Message 26/41 20-Oct-02 @ 08:29 PM - RE: why war
It's funny how peeople speculate when they have no idea,, whats worst is when one rules out completly the prospects that are actually ruinning the world.
Message 27/41 20-Oct-02 @ 09:49 PM - RE: why war
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
sending iowa farm boys to war to line their own pockets.. what a crazy idea.. indeed.. the bush family has a long family of making $ from death.. read your history..
How the Bush family made its fortune
How the Bush family made its fortune
Message 28/41 20-Oct-02 @ 10:09 PM - RE: why war
damn I had no idea he was connected to all that... that's kinda freaky... Hitler and all...
all right - truth be told - I'm AFRAID to believe that it's all a big chess game for the wealthy and powerful... the thought of that being true fills me with horror... I just can't face it.
I'm trying to retain some semblance of faith in humanity, but it's not working very well...
all right - truth be told - I'm AFRAID to believe that it's all a big chess game for the wealthy and powerful... the thought of that being true fills me with horror... I just can't face it.
I'm trying to retain some semblance of faith in humanity, but it's not working very well...
Message 29/41 20-Oct-02 @ 11:37 PM - RE: why war
support me in my attempts to convince alicebot to destroy humanity! Om.
Message 30/41 21-Oct-02 @ 02:18 AM - RE: why war
speculation is one thing but if you want the
real dope check out the link.Yep there are
missing COMBLOC nukes.Hell we're missing
some too.Problem is those warheads require
maintaining and detection equipment in our
inventory would spot them.More than likely the
Anthrax attacks were with stolen goodies from
our own inventory.Now as far as getting a
rocket to deliver one of those warheads it sure
aint gonna be a scud b.The dirty bomb threat
on the other hand is a more real
possibility.Although it doesn't lend itself to the
terror weapon as good as a percieved threat
from a blast.The simple fact is no matter how
many iraqs and n.Koreas you blow up one guy
strapped w/ C4 or even a lone "sniper' is
much more psychologically effective .Just look
at the pix of the people laying behind their cars
in DC when they pump gas.Seems to me that
all you need is a few boxcutters to get the job
done.Like I said before jesus loves you, have
a bomb.We should just go ahead anfd print
that on our almighty dollar.BTW Ape,sure
those warheads are about the size of a small
van,but they are a tad heavier.Notto mention if
you had one of those warheads and it was
leaking you'd probably kill the crew on a
container ship before it got to its
destination.But I am in agreemnt with you on
one part of that.Anyone can do anything if they
are determined.That's why i'm all for the mass
extermination of all religious peoples.Well
monotheistic ones anyway.As far as oil
grabbing goes,Do you really think a bunch of
oil rich texans would want to build a pipeline
across Iraq?
H - God and Oil aren't they great?
real dope check out the link.Yep there are
missing COMBLOC nukes.Hell we're missing
some too.Problem is those warheads require
maintaining and detection equipment in our
inventory would spot them.More than likely the
Anthrax attacks were with stolen goodies from
our own inventory.Now as far as getting a
rocket to deliver one of those warheads it sure
aint gonna be a scud b.The dirty bomb threat
on the other hand is a more real
possibility.Although it doesn't lend itself to the
terror weapon as good as a percieved threat
from a blast.The simple fact is no matter how
many iraqs and n.Koreas you blow up one guy
strapped w/ C4 or even a lone "sniper' is
much more psychologically effective .Just look
at the pix of the people laying behind their cars
in DC when they pump gas.Seems to me that
all you need is a few boxcutters to get the job
done.Like I said before jesus loves you, have
a bomb.We should just go ahead anfd print
that on our almighty dollar.BTW Ape,sure
those warheads are about the size of a small
van,but they are a tad heavier.Notto mention if
you had one of those warheads and it was
leaking you'd probably kill the crew on a
container ship before it got to its
destination.But I am in agreemnt with you on
one part of that.Anyone can do anything if they
are determined.That's why i'm all for the mass
extermination of all religious peoples.Well
monotheistic ones anyway.As far as oil
grabbing goes,Do you really think a bunch of
oil rich texans would want to build a pipeline
across Iraq?
H - God and Oil aren't they great?
Message 31/41 21-Oct-02 @ 02:54 AM - RE: why war
To answer Ape's question I would definitely
prefer the AK-47 over the M16 because the AK
is much less prone to jamming due to it's
more liberal assembly tolerences.Not to
mention the AK doesn't require the constant
oiling and cleaning a M16 does.But if I really
had a choice I would want the Krinkov variant
of the AK-74.More compact w/ a tighter
twist.The AK is so much simpler(quicker) to
field strip.A good AK will keep you alive longer
and that's the point.Not to mention you can let
them rust shut,beat the bolt open w/ a steel
toe and rock n roll.With an M16 you'll be on the
horn to the quartermaster.
H - AK TECH?
prefer the AK-47 over the M16 because the AK
is much less prone to jamming due to it's
more liberal assembly tolerences.Not to
mention the AK doesn't require the constant
oiling and cleaning a M16 does.But if I really
had a choice I would want the Krinkov variant
of the AK-74.More compact w/ a tighter
twist.The AK is so much simpler(quicker) to
field strip.A good AK will keep you alive longer
and that's the point.Not to mention you can let
them rust shut,beat the bolt open w/ a steel
toe and rock n roll.With an M16 you'll be on the
horn to the quartermaster.
H - AK TECH?
Message 32/41 21-Oct-02 @ 05:18 AM - RE: why war
"all right - truth be told - I'm AFRAID to believe that it's all a big chess game for the wealthy and powerful... the thought of that being true fills me with horror... I just can't face it."
ghost..when youre readin Z and Dissent and stuff like that...doesnt that SEEM how it is? I mean..thats the world that the left portrays...and sometimes it really does look to be so
I dont want to believe it either. the horror of such a truth would be maddening!
ghost..when youre readin Z and Dissent and stuff like that...doesnt that SEEM how it is? I mean..thats the world that the left portrays...and sometimes it really does look to be so
I dont want to believe it either. the horror of such a truth would be maddening!
Message 33/41 21-Oct-02 @ 05:44 AM - RE: why war
look it's like this.We are here now.There's
nothing we can change about that w/o being
proactive.Audio/Video active is a start.Yes it's
a chess game but remember there are more
pawns on the board than any other piece.Sure
their moves are more polished and outwardly
destructive but we can overcome all the
divisions and form one hell of a threat to the
end game.It's not the game as much as the
final outcome that dictates the pace.They have
rules on paper but the only thing that matters
is the outcome.Fuck the rules and find the
shadows.The stealth is the answer.They have
doctrine and we have morphing abilities
beyond their capabilities if we have the spirit
and determination to wreak havoc.Youth+
Technology overcomes the old ways.Life is
about choice.you can choose to sit back and
watch the show or you can become the
programming director.seen.
H- It's all a game and those who embrace that
will beat out the sheep
nothing we can change about that w/o being
proactive.Audio/Video active is a start.Yes it's
a chess game but remember there are more
pawns on the board than any other piece.Sure
their moves are more polished and outwardly
destructive but we can overcome all the
divisions and form one hell of a threat to the
end game.It's not the game as much as the
final outcome that dictates the pace.They have
rules on paper but the only thing that matters
is the outcome.Fuck the rules and find the
shadows.The stealth is the answer.They have
doctrine and we have morphing abilities
beyond their capabilities if we have the spirit
and determination to wreak havoc.Youth+
Technology overcomes the old ways.Life is
about choice.you can choose to sit back and
watch the show or you can become the
programming director.seen.
H- It's all a game and those who embrace that
will beat out the sheep
Message 34/41 21-Oct-02 @ 10:24 AM - RE: why war
lets add some of that stuff for posterity:
Listening to the rhetoric of Bush, Blair, "Rambo" Rumsfeld,
and Cheney this September as they try to ignite a popular
zest for war against Iraq (Threat of war, September 6), I
am reminded of the tone and language used by an earlier
leader hard at work stoking up a needless
[My note: ``needless'' is the wrong adjective. Invading Iraq
will serve the ``needs'' of the imperialists very well]
international crisis - Adolf Hitler in September 1938.
"I know quite well," he ranted at the Nuremberg rally, "that
through forbearance one will never reconcile so
irreconcilable an enemy as are the Czechs; they will only be provoked
to further presumption ... Herr Benes plays his tactical
game; he makes speeches, he wishes to negotiate ...
and to make little appeasement presents. But
in the long run that is not good enough!"
Change Czechs and Benes to Saddam Hussein and the
speech could have been drafted in Washington today.
Needless to say, President Benes's Czechoslovakia in
1938 posed no threat to Nazi Germany and was in any
case militarily outclassed - just as the militarily even more
outclassed Iraqis today in no way threaten the US or the
UK.
It is perfectly obvious why Washington and London wish
to delay publication of "the dossier" on Iraqi armaments
until the last possible moment - the "evidence" will simply
consist of yet more assertions and speculations of the
kind western public opinion has already found completely
unconvincing.
Meanwhile, the "democracy" about which Bush keeps prating
operates in a peculiar way: Bush and Blair are preparing
war, even though it is plain that most of their two peoples are
dead against it. This is no doubt why Blair will not recall
parliament. No debate prior to a decision. Rely
instead on the crown prerogative inherited by British prime
ministers from the absolute monarchy of the past.
Listening to the rhetoric of Bush, Blair, "Rambo" Rumsfeld,
and Cheney this September as they try to ignite a popular
zest for war against Iraq (Threat of war, September 6), I
am reminded of the tone and language used by an earlier
leader hard at work stoking up a needless
[My note: ``needless'' is the wrong adjective. Invading Iraq
will serve the ``needs'' of the imperialists very well]
international crisis - Adolf Hitler in September 1938.
"I know quite well," he ranted at the Nuremberg rally, "that
through forbearance one will never reconcile so
irreconcilable an enemy as are the Czechs; they will only be provoked
to further presumption ... Herr Benes plays his tactical
game; he makes speeches, he wishes to negotiate ...
and to make little appeasement presents. But
in the long run that is not good enough!"
Change Czechs and Benes to Saddam Hussein and the
speech could have been drafted in Washington today.
Needless to say, President Benes's Czechoslovakia in
1938 posed no threat to Nazi Germany and was in any
case militarily outclassed - just as the militarily even more
outclassed Iraqis today in no way threaten the US or the
UK.
It is perfectly obvious why Washington and London wish
to delay publication of "the dossier" on Iraqi armaments
until the last possible moment - the "evidence" will simply
consist of yet more assertions and speculations of the
kind western public opinion has already found completely
unconvincing.
Meanwhile, the "democracy" about which Bush keeps prating
operates in a peculiar way: Bush and Blair are preparing
war, even though it is plain that most of their two peoples are
dead against it. This is no doubt why Blair will not recall
parliament. No debate prior to a decision. Rely
instead on the crown prerogative inherited by British prime
ministers from the absolute monarchy of the past.
Message 35/41 21-Oct-02 @ 10:28 AM - RE: why war
CASI Quiz: Nazi or Bush-Blair -- Who said what when?
[I'm still working on it. e.g. I'm looking for a Nazi quotation saying
that it was much better for the Czech or Polish people to be invaded than
suffer under their current government.]
Guess who said this, a German Nazi sometime between 1930 and 1945
or a US/UK politician sometime from 2000 onwards:
1) There's no telling how many wars it will take to
secure freedom in the homeland
2) We must wage a total war on terrorism
3) So total war is the demand of the hour.
4) We would not deserve to lead this nation if we tolerated to any degree
whatsoever any threat to the homeland.
5) Peace through victory!
6) We are fighting for our lives. If we lose it will mean the
end of our nation and our history. This war is a defensive
war. It was forced on us by our enemies.
7a) Often [the leadership] cannot reveal the
reasons for its actions without giving valuable
information to the enemy.
7b) Much of the evidence we have is intelligence
and highly sensitive. It is not possible without compromising
people or security to release precise details.
8) We wage a war to save civilization, itself. We did not seek it,
but we must fight it -- and we will prevail.
9) We feel no hatred against the Czech/Afghan people.
10) We would have nothing against Czecho-Slovakia/Iraq if, first, it had not
suppressed Germans/Kurds, and, second, if it was not intended as the
instrument of a future attack on Germany/America.
Upon us falls the task of preventing such an attack at all costs.
11) This is a battle with only one outcome: our victory not theirs.
Answers:
1) George Bush Speech 5th Aug 2002
2) Ken Adelman Wednesday, February 13, 2002; Page A27 Washington Post (Adelman was assistant to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld from 1975
to 1977, and arms control director -- seriously: ``arms control''! -- under President Ronald Reagan.)
3) Joseph Goebbel's ``total war'' speech 18 February 1943
4) Joseph Goebbel's speech 5 June 1943
5) Joseph Goebbel's speech 24 December 1941
6) J. Goebbel's article 26 September 1943
7a) ibid
7b) Tony Blair speech to Parliament, 4th October 2001.
8) George W Bush speech 01 Nov 2001
9) Adolf Hitler speech April 3rd 1939
10) ibid
11) Tony Blair speech Labour Party conference, Brighton 2001
[I'm still working on it. e.g. I'm looking for a Nazi quotation saying
that it was much better for the Czech or Polish people to be invaded than
suffer under their current government.]
Guess who said this, a German Nazi sometime between 1930 and 1945
or a US/UK politician sometime from 2000 onwards:
1) There's no telling how many wars it will take to
secure freedom in the homeland
2) We must wage a total war on terrorism
3) So total war is the demand of the hour.
4) We would not deserve to lead this nation if we tolerated to any degree
whatsoever any threat to the homeland.
5) Peace through victory!
6) We are fighting for our lives. If we lose it will mean the
end of our nation and our history. This war is a defensive
war. It was forced on us by our enemies.
7a) Often [the leadership] cannot reveal the
reasons for its actions without giving valuable
information to the enemy.
7b) Much of the evidence we have is intelligence
and highly sensitive. It is not possible without compromising
people or security to release precise details.
8) We wage a war to save civilization, itself. We did not seek it,
but we must fight it -- and we will prevail.
9) We feel no hatred against the Czech/Afghan people.
10) We would have nothing against Czecho-Slovakia/Iraq if, first, it had not
suppressed Germans/Kurds, and, second, if it was not intended as the
instrument of a future attack on Germany/America.
Upon us falls the task of preventing such an attack at all costs.
11) This is a battle with only one outcome: our victory not theirs.
Answers:
1) George Bush Speech 5th Aug 2002
2) Ken Adelman Wednesday, February 13, 2002; Page A27 Washington Post (Adelman was assistant to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld from 1975
to 1977, and arms control director -- seriously: ``arms control''! -- under President Ronald Reagan.)
3) Joseph Goebbel's ``total war'' speech 18 February 1943
4) Joseph Goebbel's speech 5 June 1943
5) Joseph Goebbel's speech 24 December 1941
6) J. Goebbel's article 26 September 1943
7a) ibid
7b) Tony Blair speech to Parliament, 4th October 2001.
8) George W Bush speech 01 Nov 2001
9) Adolf Hitler speech April 3rd 1939
10) ibid
11) Tony Blair speech Labour Party conference, Brighton 2001
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 36/41 21-Oct-02 @ 03:08 PM - RE: why war
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
Do you think think they all have the same 'convincing your population that invasion is good' handbook?
Message 37/41 21-Oct-02 @ 03:08 PM - RE: why war
Practical approaches:
"I think that if you look at the major efforts and choose 1 and work against that then the whole thing could collapse.
Ask a question, does the answer answer the question, if not - ask the question."
"I think that if you look at the major efforts and choose 1 and work against that then the whole thing could collapse.
Ask a question, does the answer answer the question, if not - ask the question."
Message 38/41 21-Oct-02 @ 04:50 PM - RE: why war
right on influx... sometimes it really does look to be all of that, and it makes me want to fight....
of course, as a life-long paranoid, this could spell my doom.
MWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
*bang*! *flop*.
of course, as a life-long paranoid, this could spell my doom.
MWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!
*bang*! *flop*.
Message 39/41 21-Oct-02 @ 05:06 PM - RE: why war
Everybody "wants" to fight.but nobody
will.They're too busy shopping.That's the
biggest problem w/ the west we don't have
what it takes anymore.And that's just
sad.We're a bunch of scared pussies chillin at
home with our microwave dinners and
CNN.One day maybe,One day.In the mean
time all hail Bushka.Fighting means taking
casualties and not even our "army" can
stomach that.
H- I hear a perot like sucking sound of our
freedom going down the toilet.
will.They're too busy shopping.That's the
biggest problem w/ the west we don't have
what it takes anymore.And that's just
sad.We're a bunch of scared pussies chillin at
home with our microwave dinners and
CNN.One day maybe,One day.In the mean
time all hail Bushka.Fighting means taking
casualties and not even our "army" can
stomach that.
H- I hear a perot like sucking sound of our
freedom going down the toilet.
Message 40/41 21-Oct-02 @ 09:24 PM - RE: why war
Zazza
Posts: 1502
Link?: No link
File?: No file
I'm sure they can get a shitload of poor young males to join up and sacrifice themselves..
Message 41/41 21-Oct-02 @ 10:01 PM - RE: why war
well that's some consolation then innit
i just find it amazing that someone like ghost can this far without seeing it. didn't you ever take acid and think 'well i'm having a great time but boy some of these things that people are making out to be the proper thing are horrible!' like that twilight zone where you wake up and everyone but you is ugly. oh i fell asleep
i just find it amazing that someone like ghost can this far without seeing it. didn't you ever take acid and think 'well i'm having a great time but boy some of these things that people are making out to be the proper thing are horrible!' like that twilight zone where you wake up and everyone but you is ugly. oh i fell asleep
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