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Forums - The lounge
Subject: why i am happy about the elections
Viewing all 122 messages - View by pages of 10: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... 13
Original Message 1/122 06-Nov-02 @ 01:21 PM - why i am happy about the elections
so fair warning... if you are offended by the topic of abortion quit reading. and take this point: i am not telling you what to believe, i am telling you what i believe so take it for what it is, an opinion.
ok i think that the republicans gaining control of the senate is the absolute most important thing to ever happen in the past 30 years.
this means that bush gets to appoint judges without having them blocked left and right. so just as clinton did before him, bush can put people into positions of power who are anti-abortion.
i think that abortion is the biggest travesty against human life in america since slavery.
just as the white slave owners of the blacks said that they were not human and thereby justified thier actions in pursuit of wealth i see the same thing happening today.
then it was 'these slaves are not humans therefore to gain wealth and happiness we will abuse them and do as we please with them... since they are not humans they have no rights'
today i see people saying the same thing:
'it doesn't matter that i have created a baby because it isn't a human being. i need to go to college/work/whatever so that i can be happy and prosperous. i will therefore do what i like with this nonhuman so that i can persue wealth and an easy life unhindered'
what exactly is the difference between the slave owners and the current people who choose to take human life in order to serve themselves?
i believe that *should* roe v wade get overturned in this country it will be a great stride forward for all humanity.
extremely inflammatory comment here: if bush gets abortion outlawed or at a minimum pushed back to a states right to choose america will be standing in defense of the helpless and needy.
i am aware many do not agree with me but that is fine. many people were against lincoln when he tried to abolish slavery, afterall they weren't humans.
you guys can slam me if you want (used to it) but this has to be the most important civil rights issue since the MLK days and it affects people of all colors and nationalities indiscriminately.
i hope that justice comes for the innocent lives that are lost every day in the name of greed and selfishness.
jamey
Message 2/122 06-Nov-02 @ 02:18 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
ta
Message 3/122 06-Nov-02 @ 02:27 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 4/122 06-Nov-02 @ 02:28 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Bush and embryo research..!
Wakey wakey middle America
Message 5/122 06-Nov-02 @ 02:58 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Message 6/122 06-Nov-02 @ 03:11 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 7/122 06-Nov-02 @ 03:12 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 8/122 06-Nov-02 @ 03:15 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Message 9/122 06-Nov-02 @ 03:41 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
and about your topic: great, excellent all the better- your country will be in worse shape than ever with bunch of single mothers on welfare. even better, when you see their fatherless children on the street you can shout "BASTARD!" at them and abuse their mothers too for having children outside of "holy matrimony". woohoo!
(breaking my longish streak of noninvolvement here, sadly)
Message 10/122 06-Nov-02 @ 03:49 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
everbody else is.
difficult subject, but what bedwyr said.
Message 11/122 06-Nov-02 @ 03:54 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Message 12/122 06-Nov-02 @ 03:58 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
anything after that is wonderful.
i would imagine that if there were provisions for rape and injury to the mother it would gain wide popular support.
and its not like the coat hanger arguments hold any longer. people would just go onto ebay and buy abortion pills from france and take care of it at home like the doctors try and get them to do now anyway.
the purpose of this thread wasn't to say that i was anti abortion. it was to compare abortion to slavery and make people think about whether they truely value life.
jamey
Message 13/122 06-Nov-02 @ 04:11 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 14/122 06-Nov-02 @ 04:12 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 15/122 06-Nov-02 @ 05:14 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
vietnam, in the play "hair" they had a banner
that read "Nixon, pull out like your father
should have."
I really applaud these conservative SOBs in
their defense of freedom. the freedom to
screw workers for the benefit of shareholders.
freedom to rape the environment in the name
of profit. freedom to pick any flavor of
christianity that suits you. if we have to give up
a little freedom of what we say, what we can
watch or read, what we ingest, what we do in
the privacy of our own bedroom, what we do
with our bodies, well that's a small price to
pay, isn't it.
Message 16/122 06-Nov-02 @ 05:29 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
you cannot look at the issue from a scientific viewpoint and come away with the idea that babies in the womb are anything less than that.
in addition my being male has nothing to do whether abortion is right or wrong. the only reason it is legal in this country is because of a judicial decision, it is not because people in this country voted for it. therefore i think it is completely fair if the same judicial system that birthed it is the one to do away with it. since it wasn't voted on by the population in any way shape or form.
its funny that the people who get upset about beating baby seals or making sure pigs graze the right way are normally pro-abortion.
i will reinterate teh point that you cannot look at the scientific facts around this issue and come away with any view but the one that says these children/babies need to have thier rights protected.
if vegetarians and anti-death penalty people were fully consistant they would be anti-abortion as well.
jamey
Message 17/122 06-Nov-02 @ 05:35 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
pregnant girl should be strapped down and
vacuumed out. pro-choice means it's her
decision and not yours, you anti-choice twit.
Message 18/122 06-Nov-02 @ 05:52 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Is the freshly fertilised egg alive?
Is a sperm alive?
Is contraception ok by you?
Under what circumstances would you judge that abortion should be permissible?
Message 19/122 06-Nov-02 @ 06:46 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
you dont HAVE TO get pregnant. its actually really quite difficult to do, and a lot easier to NOT let it happen
just "pulling out" doesnt work. but..the pill is readily available, rubbers are cheap, OR....one of the simplest things:
only requires a calendar. Girl learns how her period works, and TOTALLY AVOIDS having sex for the 4 days around the middle of the cycle...
its that simple.
Im sorry but "mistake" pregnancies are bullshit. Like so many fuckups in this world it comes down to a lack of responsibility.
Gotta say Jamey...I agree that it is LIFE but I am horribly alarmed that youre so happy about the racist right wing fascists who are now in power.
and...its actually pretty fucking infuriating...you and GT both...you do this shit intentionally, and you both sit on your high horses as if youve got it all figured out. really, man. that is how it looks. You and he both with your "conservative" proclamations "yeah I know Im being inflammatory but Im gonna do it anyway because god is on our side and we know whats best for you and everyone else."
hate to say it, man, but the more I read from you too the more it chaps my hide.
look for things to get VERY bad soon
Message 20/122 06-Nov-02 @ 07:45 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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seriously it isn't difficult is it? Once is enough no?
Message 21/122 06-Nov-02 @ 08:07 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
jamey
Message 22/122 06-Nov-02 @ 08:13 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
As for abortion. You're not a woman, so fuck you, Jamey. Simply fuck you.
Ya see that's about as much room for positive debate as you leave everyone else.
Message 23/122 06-Nov-02 @ 08:22 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
this is not the sort of thing that should be posted
Message 24/122 06-Nov-02 @ 08:43 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
and besides, if you outlaw abortion, i'll have to be *extra* busy telling everyone how to use pennyroyal, in the good fucking tradition of my people that your kind have forbidden, and that's something you'd not like to see!
let's start now: chaps, is your bit of mint a bit late? well pin her down and flush her out with 409. that didn't work? pennyroyal. don't try it after say the 8 month mark.. pennyroyal = slightly toxic mint. brings on the bleed. used for millennia to ease the montlies, can be used to similarly bring on a miscarriage, ergo no mo lil guy, no fuss, no muss.
it can also be *somewhat* reliably used as birth control. ime less reliably depending on volition of your incubator unit.
Message 25/122 06-Nov-02 @ 08:46 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
if people just planned around this...less unwanted pregnancies
Hey GT...sorry man
sometimes I think you two are the same. Didnt realize you would disagree on this one. my bad.
Message 26/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:13 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 27/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:20 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
It's typical of conservatives (do you guys all go to the same "conservative" training seminars?) to pretend to intellectualize moral discussions. You can't have an intelligent, reasoned debate over something measured on morality. Like arguing whether god exists or what's beyond the edge of our expanding universe. Sigh. Point is, for me... there's no such thing as a black and white issue. And it's my take that those who can't see a grey scale between the dichotomies they create are being intellectualy lazy or stupid or both. That's not name calling... if you fit it, I'm sorry for you.
Why I'm sorry the elections went the way they did:
Now our unreasonable, uncompassionate and unconstitutional administration has managed to weaken the useless democrats so greatly that the people of conscience on both the west and east coast are not voting at all! 40 f*cking percent of the electorate showed up last night. That's not a mandate! 60% of the people who are entitled to vote in our nation voted none of the above... there's only so long these tired weak minded hating little self interested political hacks can get away with this before the constitutional checks and balances becomes a complete laughing stock! Our nation looks more and more like a veiled "former Soviet Union" everyday! And with this election it's not getting any better!
My apologies go out to those of you living in other nations. I live in a republic, and if our system worked as it should I probably could have done more to rally 3rd party voters. Now, because those of us in this country who see the truth of it's illness were inactive, your nations will be directly effected by the xenophobic loud mouth, brash and uncaring edge of our political minority. All puffed up with it's own self importance and hungry to satiate it's gluttony the beast of the US is about to descend!
sorry
e
Message 28/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:34 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
influx, influx! i'm sorry i yelled at you over there, so this will go over great, but get your head together, man! gt doesn't this or that, if you expected him to be the other way, he'd flip on you just to make you see how wrong and assuming you really were. he's like an eliza/dr. sbaitso of lies, everything he says is based on present statements. don't listen, turn away! he'll fuck you up!
Message 29/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:36 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
WATCH OUT FOR GT! He'll BRAINWASH you and turn you into a conservative christian!!!
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Message 30/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:48 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 31/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:48 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
and no one on here seems to care that abortion was legalized through a non-populace method even though you guys keep talking about mandates etc?
i can't win.
if i want to talk about one topic, i can't because everyone brings up the 50+ other topics about conservatives you don't like
then when i say 'hey lets stick to one topic' i am accused of 'applauding conservatism'
2 simple things i want people to consider on this:
1) that *if* fetus are humans then a travesty far worse than slavery is occuring legally
2) that you will be talking about this topic in the next two years as bush appoints judges.
i also thought it might spark an interesting debate about why our judicial system is allowed to do things that normally take a 2/3 vote of the american population....
and its also ironic that the same system that usurped the will of the people (2/3 were not for abortion rights in 1973 and probably are not now either) will again usurp the will of at least some of you in some way shape or form soon.
attacks against me if i am religious or conservative or athiest or liberal don't do anything to address the issue at hand, its me saying 'this is bad' and you saying 'you are stupid'
i may be stupid but you haven't addressed the 'this is bad' part
gonna leave this thread now, its not worth getting the entire community pissed off over. k you can trash this thread if you like to save everyone from my crap
jamey
Message 32/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:52 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
this is a good point.
and...I for one agree that a fetus is a life. Hell...sperm is a MILLION lives, innit?
I just dont think it should be made illegal...
but its one TOUCHY subject
Message 33/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:54 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
that you work for?Here chew on this a
bit.Jesus is a fictional character in a really
stupid,violent,woman bashing story.Fuck
him,Fuck Christians and Fuck You!
H- I piss on Jesus
Message 34/122 06-Nov-02 @ 09:57 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 35/122 06-Nov-02 @ 10:11 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Anyway, Dude, Jamey, yeah, it's all life. It simply depends on how far you want to take that argument. Some buddists would think you're a butcher because you step on bugs, grass, etc., it's all perspective.
I dunna care about whether the fetus has "rights" becuase that's all constructed BS. For that matter, I don't care if we're talking a fully born 30 year old, if they muck up the flow of things, they can be eliminated. Harsh? Not really.
You drive a car? You and millions of other americans, yes? You're fugging killing me and most forms of oxygen breathing creatures, all in the name of getting where you're going a bit faster. Yet if I light up a smoke in public, I'm a fugging pariah.... In my lifetime, if I smoked three packs a day, I couldn't generate as much toxic shit as a car does in one hour...
So, should I be outraged that you're killing me just cos you wanna get places quicker?
So, you get the anti-choice people to stop driving cars, I listen to your abortion woes. Otherwise, there's really nothing to say, eh?
Message 36/122 06-Nov-02 @ 10:18 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 37/122 06-Nov-02 @ 10:59 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
Posts: 1502
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Message 38/122 06-Nov-02 @ 11:35 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
H - Not just being anymore,couldn't stand it
plus it was foreign to my gene
sequence.seen.
Message 39/122 07-Nov-02 @ 08:39 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
I know this sounds condescending, and I'm not old-skool or wise or anything like that, but I've never been so disappointed in the people of DT than I have been reading the responses to this thread. Barely no one came close to even the concept of a debate, and it's obvious that no one took 2 fucking seconds to think about what Jamey's saying here. "the topic wasn't stated right, he's obviously trolling, he thinks he's better than us so why bother, he and all of his right-wing buddies are assholes who are killing the world so FUCK THEM ALL AND I HOPE THEY DIE!!!!" I mean, FUCK PEOPLE, do you READ what you write?
We all say we keep an open mind, but i heard a bunch of shutting doors in this one here...
I'm too tired to try and formulate my opinion here, because it's so complicated. Honest, I'll give it a go tomorrow. I mean, this is at the top of the grey-area list. It deals with new lives vs. the old lives that create them, and it don't get much harder than that. You can't just say Jamey's wrong. You're just as wrong! To call Jamey names and attack his beliefs just because he sanctifies an unborn baby's life is simply barbaric and crude. Fuckin' grow up people.
psylichon
wow, I'm really put off... bummer... shoulda read this one first and moved onto happier stuff. Jamey, don't give up. Just respond to my posts and I promise I'll have an actual conversation with you.
Message 40/122 07-Nov-02 @ 09:21 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
what IS is the part about being GLAD abortion might be made illegal.
its that damn belief that LAWS solve things again. Bad news when people keep that belief. Its been proven time and again to be completely untrue.
but...Sorry formant...you werent given a fair shake. Next time maybe drop the "I dont care what you think" and people might just tell you what they think?
dunno.
Im not on the "fuck all christians" side either. Some people who claim to be tolerant are pretty vehement on that one...
altho..your views...you remind me of my mom in some ways...I still dig her but we clash all the time...
Psylichon is right tho...quite a few HUGE leaps made...but it seems as tho formant's wording hit a few switches?
Message 41/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:03 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
"so fair warning... if you are offended by the topic of abortion quit reading. and take this point: i am not telling you what to believe, i am telling you what i believe so take it for what it is, an opinion."
Man, that's pretty damned clear.
I just point this out because it's SO easy to misinterpret tone in people's online posts. little yellow smileys and their variants are basically our only tools to emote in the electron world. And (being E-honest here without the E) I see you doing more tone-interpreting than anyone on here. I think we all do it, and it affects our responses heavily, it's just you actually type it out and shit!
heheh... it's fun to talk about this stuff. Even when it gets ugly. you guys probably hate me for laughing through all this....
psylichon
Message 42/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:14 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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This a really tricky topic, one that deserves to be treated with respect.. because it's an ethical minefield..
which i why i was asking questions.. to whit:
'formant: at what point does life begin?
Is the freshly fertilised egg alive?
Is a sperm alive?
Is contraception ok by you?
Under what circumstances would you judge that abortion should be permissible?
'
Message 43/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:15 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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My feeling would be to place a time limit, and only allow abortion before the feotus has formed a nervous system, but im no expert..
Message 44/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:57 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Other stuff
Is this the same America who's corporations fund covert sterilization of 3rd world countries..? WHAT
ivf and a million million sperm rather allows genocide, what is it Monty Python say about every single sperm?
Man this could be protecting tomorrows market - "need another baby boomer generation". Mussolini had a line on that. Catholisism in republicanism (thats funny)
F - "worse than slavery" crap - don't confuse quantity with quality. (But 'The Socialism' says "enough data becomes quality data - eh?)
Subjugation of women with this legislation..?
I think that there could be a flaw in the US service model. You can have all you want but you will be protected from damaging the rihghts of the defenceless, "Who are the defenceless this week Martin?", "the blue rinses say unborn infants David", "Cheers Martin", "have a nice day David" ..."Yes! the unborn need protecting from the damaging, have all you can have whatever colour, 24 hour drive through be all you can be ethos" " ...asside to Polynesian PA "We need to get legal on a better definition of life, the Chinese and Europeans are going to corner the market on stem cells".
choice, choice, choice. If we have tech to live longer and are living longer, we have protected the buying power of the next baby boomer generation and we are clearing the human forrest in the 3rd world so we have somewhere for them to build their condo poolside complexes (once they get the mud huts and the animals out of the way
Anyway, flame or no flame - Bush is in charge, Bullshit continues to sell (sighs with e) - maybe thats why the happy - less to do with foetus/slavery..? Sorry that's a bit heavy but I am soo dissapointed, no wait, I don't give a
Message 45/122 07-Nov-02 @ 11:24 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
The worst thing about abortion is they dont tell you the psychological consequences for the parties involved. Suddenly every time you turn on Tv there is some refference to babies or birth, you wouldn't beleive how much, and it eats right into you if you're not careful. Also most couples bust up who do that which they also dont tell you.
The councilling side of it is total shit and it's become more like a factory-farm business which I must say i dont agree with. I think if councilled right and told the truth about the consequences MOST people wouldn't do it.
Message 46/122 07-Nov-02 @ 11:54 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
are you fucking yourself? you want to debate abortion with a christian? what are you hoping to accomplish? i mean really - what are the tangible fruits, results, of this exercise???? shit, i've got a bag of rice you can have a discussion about particle physics with if you like.
Message 47/122 07-Nov-02 @ 01:24 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Message 48/122 07-Nov-02 @ 01:37 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
BJT
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How can Bush be anti-abortion yet support embroynic research, man the irony is too intense, I have to sit outside for a bit.
Message 49/122 07-Nov-02 @ 01:58 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 50/122 07-Nov-02 @ 02:20 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Message 51/122 07-Nov-02 @ 02:29 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Really, someone come back to me on Ford covertly sterilizing 3rd world women. WTF. Why. What benefit for the average Ford customer? No observable benefit so i figure it is gov sanctioned - in which case this is pure humbug, wind to fill the pastel shaded sails of butterfly minded voters who don't give a (automatically removed word here) about anything except their "complete this weeks sanctity theme here" -
Sorry Jamey, I am happy that you are happy and I am more happy that I don't live in the US, but then I am more unhappy than you can possibly conceive that your fat TV remote population has licensed a warmonger to tear and divide in the world where I live - but don't worry sweet concerned Jamey, Bush's daddy made sure that "Changing the US lifestyle is not on the table"
Message 52/122 07-Nov-02 @ 02:52 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
so there is not a single person on here who thinks that a fetus (as you call them) has rights that superscede the mother aside from me?
and no one on here seems to care that abortion was legalized through a non-populace method even though you guys keep talking about mandates etc?
----------------
Make sure you don't suck your chair up your ass, but...
I agree on these points, believe it or not.
-Craig
Message 53/122 07-Nov-02 @ 04:51 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
don't believe fetuses attain personhood until
they develop nervous systems and would be
viable outside the womb, and I'm not talking
about requiring extraordinary cutting-edge
medical science. they're potential people, not
people.
of course, let's not bring up the story of the
college girlfriend that dubya got pregnant and
arranged an abortion for in 1970, pre-Roe v.
Wade, when abortions were illegal. the rules
are different for the rich and powerful.
Message 54/122 07-Nov-02 @ 05:10 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 55/122 07-Nov-02 @ 05:16 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Ford is sterilising women? Where, when?
o, what a sick world..
Message 56/122 07-Nov-02 @ 05:41 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Having an open mind does not mean changing it regularly. I feel this is a discussion that CANNOT go any where. It is a moral argument! How can you argue about morality? I think for most people the abortion issue comes down to when is life viable...
Is the possibility of life equal to the definition? My answer is yes! But I also think that the possibility of anything is equal to it's definition... (open minded?) so I feel that the abortion issue is a grey water issue, those who see it in black and white cannot have a reasoned discussion on the subject, from my point of view!
e
Message 57/122 07-Nov-02 @ 05:59 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
you just have to give it a chance. and don't be so anti-christian, it's really rude and ignorant especially becuase they have so few numbers on here. respect.
psylichon
Message 58/122 07-Nov-02 @ 06:17 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
who here believes in a soul? if you do, when and from where do you think that comes about?
personal responsibility: we love talking about it. doesn't it apply to the mother? taking responsibility for one's actions? if given an out for consequences, responsibility perhaps can never take hold.
personally, I call myself pro-choice because I don't think this kind of thing can be legislated much like any moral issue. i couldn't tell a woman, even my own wife, what she can and can't do to her body. i would much prefer people have open honest discussions about abortion much like we're doing here and reach the conclusion that it's wrong on their own. idealist epitomized, i know, but that's the only way it would work I think.
basically, i think it's easy to justify legal abortion with a number of economic, political, and social data. philosophically and viscerally however, I hope that most of us would disagree with taking an unborn life and wouldn't do it if we were in that position. agreed?
psylichon
Message 59/122 07-Nov-02 @ 06:19 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
zazza i am not ignoring you... you can zap an email at me formant@bellsouth.net and i promise not to try and convert you but will answer your questions. the quick summary is i am not as consistant as catholics are on this topic but i would be thinking anything that limits abortions even if its something small like banning partial birth abortions is a step in the right direction.
yes i have kids, another one due soon. i have also lost a child at 4.5 months pregnant and grieved every bit as much as if i had lost one of my first kids. no i am not catholic but yes i am trying to outbreed you lot!!! :-)
everyone think about what kilo wrote, now imagine i had posted it instead of him. most here would have had a different response.
jamey
Message 60/122 07-Nov-02 @ 06:22 PM Edit: 07-Nov-02 | 06:23 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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You are welcome to try and convert me though
Always up for a giggle.
Message 61/122 07-Nov-02 @ 06:33 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
jamey
Message 62/122 07-Nov-02 @ 06:53 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
___________________________________
I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!
Message 63/122 07-Nov-02 @ 07:34 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 64/122 07-Nov-02 @ 08:04 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
jamey
Message 65/122 07-Nov-02 @ 08:25 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
i think if we are going to talk about it, we should know a little about what it is. that is a description of abortion by bernard nathanson, one of the founders of NARAL and who ran the largest abortion clinic in the country for two years. he is now a pro-life advocate.
Message 66/122 07-Nov-02 @ 08:46 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
His coments are loaded and aimed at eliciting responses from the rest of us that he has predetermined answers for.
There's no closed mindedness here on my part. Just a general weariness... sorry.
e
Message 67/122 07-Nov-02 @ 08:50 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 68/122 07-Nov-02 @ 08:59 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
As for belief in the "soul," seems like a construct. I dunno. As to what I believe about the soul, I don't. I figure we're born, we live, we die, we rot. What we have is right here, right now. If you spend all your time acting in xyz way for the purpose of a better afterlife, you might just miss your one opportunity... you might not. I've never been dead so I couldna say.
I do think at the moment of death, our brains do everything they can to help us deal with it, namely conjuring up our best memeories and fantasies, so that when we go into the void, that last instant, which becomes our eternity, we go where we want based on what we believe and what means the most to us... So those that believe in heaven, assume they'll be with their families, etc., that's what happens for the them and so on. It allows for all religions, creeds, or lack thereof....
Just a couple of pesos from the tentacled one....
Message 69/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:18 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
consciousness, like the energy in the universe, is preserved.... our presence in the universe becomes less "likely" as we live out our lives... so as we live, we experience a universe that is less and less likely for us to be in it.... so, take that to the extreme future and what do you get? very, very "unlikely" and bizarre universes where we still continue to exist....
what does this look like to me, the observer? a universe that gets progressively weirder and weirder, but with me still in it somehow, some way....
one possible scenario is that I may die physically one day, only to be be reawakened by an alien race at a far future date to serve as a slave, or as food for their young... this event, though extremely unlikely, must take place since it is the only way to preserve my consciousness.....
I hope my new masters are insectile.
no wait, I'm stoned. nevermind!
Message 70/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:37 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
The harm in killing is the damage it does to the killer!
e
Message 71/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:45 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
or you could say instead of living many lives, we live one in which we see division, for reasons unknown, of time and space and we sense this evolution of self and species that in actuality always was. that's what really throws me for a loop when I start thinking about evolution and life and death and meaning. it gets very difficult to accept the conclusions I come to sometimes...
gonna go sit in the corner and think now
psylichon
Message 72/122 07-Nov-02 @ 10:45 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
I'm gettin' fucked up!!
See yall latah!
psylichon
Message 73/122 07-Nov-02 @ 11:42 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Up with Scorpio's! Down with the proletariat!
e
Message 74/122 08-Nov-02 @ 12:13 AM Edit: 08-Nov-02 | 12:15 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 75/122 08-Nov-02 @ 12:23 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Message 77/122 08-Nov-02 @ 01:09 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
a little late in the game, but uh...when did I say "I dont care what you think, Formant"?
you know...Kilo made a VERY good point. Abortions ARE done factory style. Counseling is offered but its assembly-line
and people OFTEN get torn to shreds emotionally over the whole thing. Its a fucking horrible decision to make.
I'll tell you what...I got a girl pregnant when I was 19. I felt like the biggest fucking asshole idiot on the face of the planet. Fucked up thing she was ON THE PILL. Yes.
so...when she told me she asked me what I thought she should do, and my first thought was the "easy" route...but all I said was "It's your decision and I will go along with what you decide"
What she did decide was something that rarely gets mentioned. ADOPTION. There are MANY good families out there that cant have babies and would be thrilled to adopt.
But most girls say "Well..>I couldnt handle that"...but...what about when you KEEP the fucking kid and SUCK as a parent?
just another fuck up loose in the streets because YOU "couldnt handle it"
in any case...so we gave her up for adoption, and I was fucking TORN for the longest time, but here I am...not a role model, not someone who would do the best job raising a kid...so in those circumstances I know the right choice was made.
in all honesty TO ME it seems barbaric and horrific the whole abortion thing
My beef is with legislation...making it illegal. Just opens too many doors and closes even more.
but again...adoption.
Message 78/122 08-Nov-02 @ 01:28 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
espoo2
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Our population is growing exponentially. That means that it doubles itself, I think the latest figure was every 9 years... and that gap is getting smaller. So in about 20 years, we will double our population in about 4 or 5 years. Catholics better rethink their strategy. I , for one, have no problem with abortion, even if it is considered a life. Ho-hum. It's your own conscience. I wouldn't do it. But it bothers me not one bit if someone else does.
Second: People will still get abortions. But what happens is Bush takes another step at widening the ever growing class gap. Rich people will get abortions in other countries. Poor people wont because they cant afford plane tickets or meds, and have more illegitamate children that they cant feed, which perpetuates their downward spiral of poverty.
I don't expect you to change your mind.
But you have to see where us, who dont believe in your morals because there is no rational REASON to believe in your morals, are coming from.
We're all doomed anyway, at Shrub's hand, I'm sure. So I suppose its a moot point.
Message 79/122 08-Nov-02 @ 01:31 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
"we're all doomed" (scottish accent of course)
&
"don't panic" (english)
Message 80/122 08-Nov-02 @ 01:37 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
unless you think killing is wrong?
psylichon
Message 81/122 08-Nov-02 @ 01:39 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
but hold on a sec?!?!?!
honestly....why not just NOT HAVE KIDS? Get fixed for chrissakes!
Im gonna, I think, actually. If I ever do settle down I will adopt.
Message 82/122 08-Nov-02 @ 02:18 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 83/122 08-Nov-02 @ 02:32 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
psylichon
Message 84/122 08-Nov-02 @ 02:37 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 85/122 08-Nov-02 @ 02:49 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
pict
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Message 86/122 08-Nov-02 @ 03:21 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
tis true that there are too many people on the planet...would be nice to take a break for a generation or two.
Message 87/122 08-Nov-02 @ 03:27 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
psylichon
Message 88/122 08-Nov-02 @ 04:52 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Trust me (or not), human population has suffered set backs of a serious order due to overpopulation, and it's happened more than once in our less than grandiose history. It's been mostly regional occurances, but it has happened and continues to do so. Check Ethiopia for instance....
In all truth, humans are pretty unremarkable on this planet. The weird shit...? That's the bugs and sea critters. But even there, tis only because I'm so far removed from their worlds that I find them strange and unique.
And I find nothing wrong with children, nothing at all. I've simply chosen to live my life without having any. Doesn't mean anything other than a personal choice and accepting responsibility, or lack thereof, for said choice.
Peace
Message 89/122 08-Nov-02 @ 07:33 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
psylichon
Message 90/122 08-Nov-02 @ 09:04 AM Edit: 08-Nov-02 | 09:05 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
So, maybe? I dunno, but it seems reasonable that a complex system like humanity would have an equally complex set of checks and balances, so maybe it is extra-conscious. It'd be absurd to assume we know all the intricasies of life as a human, especially as that relates to the intricasies betwixt human and the world that one lives in... It is a very fascinating world, too. One which we've only begun to grasp, let alone understand...
Yet, if you shutoff the brain (or mayhap our ingrained culture) for just a bit and just be, it's amazing how connected and easily understood that things can be. Still doesn't mean we'll all share the same understanding, but we can appreciate that different understandings are part of the equation, too. And it still leaves you plenty of room to clobber a dumb SOB (and in turn be clobbered) when it needs doin.' =)
Peace
Message 91/122 08-Nov-02 @ 10:34 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
pict
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Message 92/122 08-Nov-02 @ 11:01 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
except this:
"the vast majority of people love and care for their children"
sadly, I disagree. I think the vast majority are ill-equipped and raise selfish, mean (even if subconsciously), emotionally scarred and confused progeny.
not making judgement regardint you or anyone else specifically, but...the way I see it each generation gets more and more fucked up
in america at least
Message 94/122 08-Nov-02 @ 02:43 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Also there could be an argument that unless you know the responsibility of having a child then you are not enjoying all of lifes experiences. I am surprised to write this myself (wouldn't have thought so before Lilla)
It changes when you have kids, all of a sudden you cope and before you know it you are doin ok. I know before I had the first I though yoy but now all is well.
I used to think I didn't want to bring kids into this world, then I realised that I am not a bad person and if there are more of people then there should be more of me.
PS Happy B Psy
Message 95/122 08-Nov-02 @ 07:39 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
I dont know.. There is already so many fucking people here...
Message 96/122 08-Nov-02 @ 07:52 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
But I don't think that's any reason to kill them. If I did I'd be down around the McDonalds poppin' folks at the drive thru... I have 3 kids. I don't want anymore because I'll be nearly 50 when my youngest comes of age. I also had a girlfriend that got an abortion when I was 22. I supported the decision and I don't regret it. It DID f*ck with her and wrecked our relationship. But I think a kid would have made it worse and done real damage to the kid as well! The reprecussions of having a child well outweighed the reprecussions of having an abortion... neither was a pleasant experience, but we both chose the lesser of 2 evils. I feel in many ways we did the lifestream that would have been our child a favor! From my perspective, the child had a few moments of disorientation and confusion (something we all suffer at death) and was able to move on... NOT TO SOMETHING BETTER, but hopefully to nothing worse.
e
Message 97/122 08-Nov-02 @ 10:39 PM Edit: 08-Nov-02 | 10:43 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 98/122 08-Nov-02 @ 10:46 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
is that like robbing a sperm bank?
psylichon
Message 99/122 08-Nov-02 @ 10:48 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 100/122 08-Nov-02 @ 10:51 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 102/122 09-Nov-02 @ 05:46 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 103/122 13-Nov-02 @ 09:39 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
a non religous viewpoint some of you might appreciate
Message 104/122 14-Nov-02 @ 01:14 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
- that they are endowed by their "Creator"
seems a little offbase.
Who they referring to as "my" creator anyway? My old man?
While, I'm certainly willing to entertain the idea that life begins at conception, mayhap even earlier, I'm not willing to believe in some "creator" figure out of myth and legend, even less so if that "creator" somehow makes humanity "special." So, while I might agree with some of their arguments on the "secular" page, they're premise (IMO) is fucked, so logic and the ability to debate (cos how can one debate against ethereal things like "creators") is moot.
I'm really not trying to bust yer balls here, Jamey, just trying to illustrate why I, in particular, have issues with such arguments.
Peace
Message 105/122 14-Nov-02 @ 01:21 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Or even recognize them in the first place...
psylichon
Message 106/122 14-Nov-02 @ 01:27 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
god talk simply turns me off.....
Message 107/122 14-Nov-02 @ 01:52 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 108/122 14-Nov-02 @ 02:00 AM Edit: 14-Nov-02 | 02:03 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
pict
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Message 109/122 14-Nov-02 @ 02:40 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
i think a majority of americans are against any form of abortion except in cases of rape or danger to the mother. i think a small percentage are against abortion in any form and a small percentage are fully for abortions in any circumstance.
most people in the debate play the fringes of either extreme but fail to acknowledge most people want it limited to a great degree.
jamey
Message 110/122 14-Nov-02 @ 03:12 AM Edit: 14-Nov-02 | 03:20 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
pict
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Whether that compromise is decided on by the people or the powers that be is a big question in itself but at any rate the moral decision has been taken by a majority of those who govern in favour of the rights of the mother over the rights of the unborn and those who govern don't like moving the goalposts too much when it comes to highly emotive issues like these because it gets noticed too much and it polarises the population.In the present day situation with imminent war with Iraq and all that may entail it would be very foolish politically to have a polarised population.
In that light I think that it will remain legal though possibly with a few token gesture restrictions regardless of what the radical Christians want,that is unless the majority of the population become radical Christians which I think is unlikely.Codified morality is hard work when you're busy dealing with reality.
Message 111/122 14-Nov-02 @ 01:33 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Good pragmatic points...
You mean like 'Thou shalt not kill' which an awful lot of 'christians' seem to gloss over when it comes to war/the right to bear arms/assasinating Usama bin laden and such?
Presumably the 'pro-life' people have to rule out killing anyone in any circumstances, even in self-defence, also executions, and definitely in aggressive actions against other countries..
What u think Jamey?
Message 112/122 14-Nov-02 @ 01:57 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
i assume you don't know a lot about christianity or the bible? 'thou shalt not kill' is the KJV translation of the hebrew original; most modern translations render it something like 'you shall not murder'. there appear to be at least 3 different hebrew words for kill, from my cursory examination.
throughout the law are things whose punishment is death; they use a different word for kill than the commandment. i do not think it is conflicting; the idea is based on intent, possibly a different concept of justice than you are used to or agree with but consistent nonetheless. there are (and have been) of course many christian pacifists as well.
Message 113/122 14-Nov-02 @ 02:05 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
catholics and orthodox are pro life all the way from birth control to the death penalty.
most protestant american christians are pro life but allow BC and like the death penalty.
there is so much room to create your own flavor of christianity that its impossible for them/us to have a united front.
for instance bill clinton was pro abortion supposedly from reading the bible where other politians are against abortion from reading the same words.
what it boils down to is people believe what they want to and then use the religion to justify it.
personal opinion i think the catholics have more balls than anyone in this arena. i am not able to live up to the ideals they preach in the 'life' arena...
jamey
Message 114/122 14-Nov-02 @ 04:34 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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Me of course!
formant: Yup, absolutely..
Message 115/122 14-Nov-02 @ 05:32 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
but i won't go into that here.
the 'social engineering' arguments are a bit scary to me though... at the time when christianity was born, both abortion and infanticide were very common. many of those same arguments ('it wouldn't live a good life anyways') etc. could easily be extended to support infanticide, or even further...
Message 116/122 14-Nov-02 @ 06:08 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
These folks make a decent argument in their point of erring on the side of caution... "What if we're wrong about sentience" and that little lump of cells can think, feel etc...??? Well, there we are... if that's the case then we're commiting an atrocity... but what if brocolli is actualy very intelligent, and suffers serious pain? Is it murder to eat brocolli because it MAY be self aware? Even when what we understand of brocolli points to the contrary?
e
Message 117/122 14-Nov-02 @ 07:42 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
nomad: "well it's the translation"
right pair of comedic stylists you are.
Message 118/122 14-Nov-02 @ 09:40 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 119/122 14-Nov-02 @ 10:12 PM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 120/122 15-Nov-02 @ 08:54 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
The Kind of Noise That Keeps a Body on Balance
By ANNE EISENBERG
EEPING your balance while standing upright can be tricky, particularly for older people.
That is because standing steady is partly a result of slight adjustments to posture that are ordered by the brain in response to sensory information from the feet. But as people age, they become less sensitive to touch and send fewer signals.
Now a Boston University scientist and his colleagues have found a way to use random signals to increase the sensory data coming from the feet.
In a series of experiments, healthy 75-year-olds stood on a platform that transmitted randomly varying vibrations to the soles of their feet. With these good vibrations, the subjects reflexively adjusted their balance until they swayed about the same amount as 25-year-olds who did not receive the random signals. Younger people who used the vibrating system also swayed less.
James J. Collins, a professor of biomedical engineering who led the research group, attributed the improvement to stochastic resonance, a well-known phenomenon in which random noise enhances the detection of weak signals. In this case the noise made the nerves in the feet more sensitive and better able to detect the kinds of pressure changes that occur when the body goes slightly out of balance and puts more pressure on one part of the foot.
"It's a foot massager with a twist," Dr. Collins said of the research setup. The vibrations are not soothing because the motion is below a detectable level, but they do make people more stable.
In the world of signal detection, noise is traditionally viewed as a prime nuisance. Entire courses at engineering schools are devoted to reducing it. Electromagnetic noise creates snow on television sets; acoustic noise makes conversation impossible in some restaurants.
But in Dr. Collins's experiments, as in those of other researchers who have investigated stochastic resonance, certain kinds of noise turn out to be helpful.
"For electrical signals, the low levels of noise essentially tickle the membranes of the neurons," he said, making them more likely to fire when there is a physical stimulus of some amplitude. For mechanical signals, noise serves to boost weak stimuli. "The experiment is a good example of how noise lets a neuron fire in the company of a signal that it is normally unable to detect,'' Dr. Collins said.
Although the principle of stochastic resonance has been investigated for more than a decade, Dr. Collins said, these experiments were the first in which it was shown to improve balance. The effect, described in a paper to appear in the journal Physical Review Letters, may be sufficient to offset age-related declines in balance control, he said.
The platform used in the study has hundreds of small holes; a small plastic rod protrudes slightly through each of them so that it contacts the bottom of the test subject's foot. The rods are hooked up to motors that cause them to vibrate at random frequencies generated by a computer while the test subject is standing quietly.
"They couldn't feel the random vibrations," Dr. Collins said. "We set the noise up at too small an amplitude for them to detect it."
Attila Priplata, a student of Dr. Collins and lead author of the paper, has designed gel-based shoe insoles that contain small vibrating devices designed to produce the same effect. When the researchers repeated the study with people using the insoles, Dr. Collins said, they found even stronger effects.
It is important that the signals be random because neurons quickly get used to regular signals.
John Milton, a neuroscientist at the University of Chicago, said that Dr. Collins's bionic inserts might one day prove to be an inexpensive remedy for legions of aging baby boomers who have grown less steady on their feet. "These noisy sneakers could save a lot of money if they were used for treatment," Dr. Milton said. "And there are no side effects I can imagine from wearing noisy sneakers."
Dr. Collins has written a series of research papers on ways to use stochastic resonance to improve health. An earlier paper, for instance, discussed the use of noise to improve the sensitivity of touch in older adults who suffered diabetes or the effects of a stroke.
But he is well aware of more frivolous applications, particularly for sports equipment. "I could imagine having noise introduced into the handles of golf clubs or tennis rackets," he said. "Or into basketball shoes."
Vibrating shoes might be something like an electronic version of flubber, the magic substance that turned a so-so basketball player into a superstar in the old Walt Disney movie and a recent remake. But Dr. Collins was quick to point out the superiority of his discovery over flubber.
"The energy source in flubber is the material itself," he said. "Here we are taking advantage of the natural senses - the sensory neurons' shifting their detection thresholds to a lower value."
Kurt Weisenfeld, a professor of physics at Georgia Tech who did some of the early defining work in stochastic resonance, said that Dr. Collins's experiments were a striking example of thinking creatively about possible applications of the phenomenon.
"This is a practical idea that could help people maintain their balance," he said. He said he particularly admired Dr. Collins's solution because it is relatively simple.
"For someone with sensory problems, the high-tech answer might be a bionic ankle," he said. "But maybe instead they'll just slip into a pair of bionic socks. Those are a whole lot cheaper."
Message 121/122 15-Nov-02 @ 10:41 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Message 122/122 16-Nov-02 @ 09:44 AM - RE: why i am happy about the elections
Zazza
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