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Forums   -   Live / PA / gigging

Subject: Define "Live"


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Original Message 1/79             04-Apr-02  @  04:21 PM   -   Define

Mindspawn

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What I'm on about has been touched on in a lot of threads of late. Just what constitues "live" in the sense of an electronic performance? Is playing a DAT live? How about using a DAT for backing while you play live bits over the top? How is using a sequencer all that different? How much manipulation of yer bits does it take before you're "live?"

I know there's a lot of differences, including artist vs audience perception. Just wonderin' what y'alls take on this was...

From me own perspective what satisfies my definition of "live" is no pre-recorded songs or backing, no individual sequence in excess of 32 measures in length, and doing something a little more involved than hitting a button or a knob once every ten minutes. That's not to say if you don't meet my "criteria" that you'd get no respect, far from it actually... I'm just giving out my own definition of what makes it LIVE for me, and that ain't necessarily what makes it good by any means....

Peace



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Message 2/79             05-Apr-02  @  01:56 AM   -   RE: Define

brentym

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i don't know. i've never even actually seen anyone do a "live PA" besides so i don't know what is expected or what the norm is.

i've been playing in bands and doing solo acoustic gigs for so long, the idea of not playing an instrument through the whole gig seems bizarre to me.

i've not done a live performance with electronic instruments before, but in rehearsing i've noticed that most of my time is spent making making adjustments for what will happen 4 bars ahead of time and tweaking the sounds of the phrases as they are already playing than playing any actual music. i enjoy it, but its a totally differn't approach.



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Message 3/79             05-Apr-02  @  01:32 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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I've used sequences as long as 64 beats, but usually much shorter. I'm also not opposed to mixing long complex sequences in one sequencer with shorter bits and pieces punched in and out as well. For some heavily break oriented stuff, I'm just not accurate enough to punch it all in and out at 190 bpm and throwing 32nd rolls. I'm only human. However, I can punch some of it, and do, as well as play other stuff along with it. How live is live? How live do you want to make it? I think it's more a question of technique, inspiration, spontanaety, and interactivity than the tools used, per se, but obviously there are limits with in all of it, and the areas aer more or less grey according to the individual. My two.

Ape



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Message 4/79             05-Apr-02  @  02:11 PM   -   RE: Define

sitar

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Yea. Playing an instrument is one thing but dance music is like playing a small orchestra or you're the whole 4 piece band anyway. Doing it all live, you'd need to be an octupus.



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Message 5/79             05-Apr-02  @  05:10 PM   -   RE: Define

damballah

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mine's kinda like yours, mindspawn. is the sound coming from musical instruments or playback devices? is anything being done to the sound in real time?



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Message 6/79             05-Apr-02  @  05:59 PM   -   RE: Define

Def Z

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I don't know - I think we may be looking at the definition of live in the wrong context. Mindspawn, your defition excludes some performers who are very involved in the groove of their music, and their art, and I think that the definition you've offered is a little restrictive. Take the dj for example. He's up their spinning records, and because he doesn't change a disk/record every 32 bars doesn't mean he's not live. He/She is VERY much in control of the music, the tone, the groove, etc, and can respond to changes in environment and audience.

I would define live as the ability to artistically/musically react to different stimuli. That means playing bits over a DAT, sequencing on the fly, and dj'ing. In my opinion.



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Message 7/79             05-Apr-02  @  06:03 PM   -   RE: Define

horizens

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[image file]


roni size was a good live show. although it
wasn't just him up there. 3 other guys playing
keyboards triggering s760s, a bassist, a
drummer and an mc.



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Message 8/79             05-Apr-02  @  08:41 PM   -   RE: Define

formant

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well i think i have determined what my live PA will be...

here is my situation... typical dj type guy who has been producing for several years wanting to go live

what i have decided on is taking out the following:

roland digital mixer
yamaha rs7000
nord lead 3

all of my beats, reaktor synths, and efx will be sampled into the rs7000 and set to a track.

the nord will be triggered live from the rs7000 midi sequencer and knobs will be tweaked but i probably will not play live keys (i suck at it)

my songs will all have no arrangement to them other than the typical 'main loops' and 'breakdown/changeup' loops... so i will be bringing in parts as i go and essentially composing the songs as i go.

seeing as how i have no actual playing abilities, this setup will be a good compromise of live cuz the song is never the same twice and the nord will be constantly changing etc.

i already have a monthly dj slot and the promoters are wanting me to do a live set anytime i want, i just have to get all my tunes ported over to the rs :-)

anyone have any suggestions or additions? i figure turning stuff on and off and twisting nord knobs will keep one guy with two hands plenty busy.

jamey



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Message 9/79             06-Apr-02  @  10:57 PM   -   RE: Define

brentym

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how bout an external digital delay to run through an aux out of the mixer. put it on whatever you want, whenever.

i have an old ibanez DM100 with knobs that i use for some spaced out effects.



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Message 10/79             07-Apr-02  @  02:34 AM   -   RE: Define

k

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wellll... imo the creeping use of the word LIVE is pure nastyness and goes hand in hand with the crap loser world we live in of decaying personal ability

it used to be called a PA (personal appearance) - and everyone knew what that was... so it was:

"live PA from Trevor Walters" or whoever, and you expected Trev to bang it over a backing tape... fine... but now.. 'LIVE' hmmmmm... as i said, someone should sue Brittany.. she's a fuckin mimer for sure.

But it all goes hand in ahnd with the miserable decline of the music biz... fuinnily i was watching TOTP with my two teenie nephews this week and when they ran down the top30 all they said was...

"crap... crap... rubbish... crap... rubbish... crap.. crap.."

etc.. man, even to kids it's total cobblers now... still, www downloadin will get the blame no doubt

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 11/79             07-Apr-02  @  03:38 AM   -   RE: Define

xoxos

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'crap loser world we live in of decaying personal ability..'



!



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Message 12/79             07-Apr-02  @  03:51 AM   -   RE: Define

influx

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actually PA = public address as in "Public Address System" 

crap loser world



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Message 13/79             07-Apr-02  @  08:44 AM   -   RE: Define

brentym

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lol...

and now... via satellite...

ahh, fuck it



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Message 14/79             07-Apr-02  @  10:53 AM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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Give me a gig. I'll show you live. I promise. I'm not afraid! If you've got the balls and the skillz and you're feeling it, maybe we can even.........JAM!! Oh! I said it! heehee!

Folks need to get the heads out of their own ego filled asses and pick up on the Jazz concepts of interaction, improvising with a group of others, and spontanaety. I'm still a Jazz cat at heart and just cuz I'm using electronic instruments and tools doesn't take away from that fact. Every player has their signiture 'licks' that they can throw in at just the right place to make the difference between meat and potatoes, and a slammin tune. The difference is that in the 'Jazz scence' you HAVE to listen to other players and interact with them, and your ego, and MIDI sync are not enough to keep a piece going. You have to think more collectively, as it is the interaction between folks that makes a piece work. Most people in the electronic scence are not willing to put their egos that far in check and really place themselves in a group concsiousness with others for sake of the tune. DJ's and musicians alike. We could be so much more, and take things so much further. I see the future in what we do if we are to keep this artform as viable as a much more interactive and collaborative effort, using more than one shaman at a time to create the magic that inspres the feelings in others to move their bodies in an expressive manner on the dancefloor and elsewhere. Thoughts?


Ape



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Message 15/79             07-Apr-02  @  12:03 PM   -   RE: Define

influx

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thoughts? jazz players were ing MUSICIANS

not to detract from anyone here's skillz, but...all this SW, and sequencers, etc...have made it WAY too easy to make music

I for one know SHIT about "rules"...and I dont mean to say that I feel I should adhere to said rules, but...the lack of knowledge that I am PAINFULLY aware of in myself...is blatantly missing in so many people's efforts...

its just too ing easy now, and so few of us COULD truly "jam"...I dont know if I could

part of it would be self-oppression, one of the saddest characteristics of human nature. But the other part would just be lack of skill (and/or lack of experience...does experience make up for skill sometimes?)

I just..pongoid...I dont even know you but based on what you've said over the course of the years, you have a life that was flooded with musicality...playing jazz bass, being in truly spontaneous environments....

far too many of us, me included, were brought up in fairly rigid surroundings...and the concept of "letting go" is a foreign one. Of course I can only truly speak for myself, but...I do make contact with other humans occasionaly and the only time the ones I know seem to truly LET GO is after 5 pints of guinness (sp?)...

its like...SO FUCKING PENT UP!!!! so disheartening.

and yes, the answer is nothing more than COUNTEROFFENSE. just GO, as Jack would say, but HOW

how the ?

and part of that answer is learning. truly learning how music works...learning the rules in order to break them. I mean, sure..I can sit in front of a PC or even a HW seq and put stuff together. I have ears. I can tell if things sound good together, apparently well enough so that other people dont fall on the ground and convulse spastically when they hear my sounds, but the buck stops there. Put me, and you, in a room, and its gonna be a while before anything I do is "freeform" and or "spontaneous"

first, I believe I would be a bit intimidated, but second...I would FREEZE

only for a while, granted, and its AFTER that "for a while" where things would get interesting...

my point is...how many people here really know anything about truly meshing? about "jamming"? about "music"? Sure..we know we love it, and we know that deep down inside we LONG for being able to make those sounds that caused us to fall in love with this stuff in the first place (hence the 8inggazillion "how do I make this sound" threads) but...its...ahhh ..its just such a reach...or...maybe its jsut a few rungs up the ladder, but those rungs are so ing far apart!!!!!

sorry, me, just feelin a bit doubtful. Its either all SO much easier than it seems to me, or Im just missing the gist of it for some reason



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Message 16/79             07-Apr-02  @  01:41 PM   -   RE: Define

k

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yes PA does mean what you said, BUT also in the sphere of club appearances it means PERSONAL APPEARANCE - it's really only used in the dancehall/reggea scene 'LIVE PA' on a clubnight promotion means a live personal appearance where the artists sings over a backing tape, usualy to promote a record, or just to appear and boost the night... y'know?.. supporting & enhancing local black business enterprise and all that Garvey, Bookker T, Malcolm Little socialist stuff????... you could get Frankie Paul for about 500-600 quid I reckon.. mind you, in 1981 you could get Susie & the Banshee's for 600 quid!

LADIES!!!... Free entry & a free bottle of champagne before midnight for party of 4!!!

___________________________________

I had an idea for a script once. It's basically Jaws except when the guys in the boat are going after Jaws, they look around and there's an even bigger Jaws. The guys have to team up with Jaws to get Bigger Jaws.... I call it... Big Jaws!!!



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Message 17/79             07-Apr-02  @  03:20 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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WE ARE ING MUSCICIANS!!!!! It is on us to carry on or modify, or break, or just drop those time-honored traditions for our purposes. Rather than trying to find fault with using gear, just use it. If you don't work fast, you know what you need to work on. You have the power. You may not have the courage, but you have the means. You know what you need to work on. Work on it. As long as you breath it's not too late.



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Message 18/79             07-Apr-02  @  03:35 PM   -   RE: Define

xoxos

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i'll jam  

never done it midi'ed. the first (and maybe the only) time i've rellyrellyrelly jammed (as in jellied..) was after a 24 hour noise session. very tired.. guy and i playing simple notes on guitars or basses back and forth. ingredients: a modicum of fluency with your instrument and a focus/appreciation for the product (well, that clears that up :p) i think i had exhausted my ego by that point (chaotic anti-jam) and was taken off-guard since the session was about timbral exploration (ie. we weren't using guitars) and i hardly expected anything conventional to be pleasant. it was just the end of the time. i was surprised! proper aural sex.

i'd LOVE to synth jam (haven't met anyone who knows their instruments.) my ears won't take the decibels of dance though. but if you're in town, i'll wear some plugs :p



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Message 19/79             07-Apr-02  @  05:18 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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deal.



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Message 20/79             07-Apr-02  @  09:45 PM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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Jamming IS the shit... I actually dunna care much for jazz, just a personal taste thing, but the idea of improv, that I do dig. That's how I learned music, sitting in bluegrass "rounds" where you might have fifteen or twenty people playing guitars, fiddles, mandolins, etc., etc. Taught me how to sit tight and keep shut, as well as teaching me how to jump in head first when my turn came up... Bluegrass, blues, and eventually rock, all of 'em taught me a lot about different ways of jamming and such. When I moved over to the electronic side, it was a natural outgrowth to follow the same sort of approach... My brand of "dance" as well as my live dark ambient gigs, pretty largely all improv (but you gotta understand, "all improv" means I've run through lots of variations and lots of practice... it ain't like I wake up the day of the show with a blank mind and just go up on stage and await "inspiration...").

I'm always down for jamming anytime anyone might be in the area. Same goes if you catch me elsewhere, tell me where and when, and if I can make it, I'd love to do it... I rarely get the opportunity to jam with others, so when the opportunity pops up, I'm all for it...

Peace



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Message 21/79             07-Apr-02  @  11:35 PM   -   RE: Define

brentym

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will someone describe what a jam session with electronic music would consist of? especially if not everyone can actually play the keyboards that well?

not taking the piss, just never done it



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Message 22/79             08-Apr-02  @  01:55 AM   -   RE: Define

xoxos

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textural  

or you could be like my friend gian who has several dozen x0x boxes.. what a bloody racket. textural works there too really.

also might check out some of the more esoteric functions of your modules, ie. the nord lets you trigger amp and filter envelopes with specific messages, so i could set up tracks of trigger patterns on my q80 to punch.



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Message 23/79             08-Apr-02  @  05:05 AM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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Jamming w/ electronic stuff can take many forms, depends a lot on the musos you're workin' with. For the dark ambient type jams, it's waaaaay freeform, people just go off and you look to find something to compliment, contrast, or otherwise flow with what's goin' down.

With dance stuff, it's not all that different, but you occasinally get everyone synced up to a single tempo, which makes it a lot easier to get everyone on the same page, even if they're not great keys players... but even running unsynched, you can generally "herd" the equipment in the right groove, you just have to stay on top of it and listen more than you play... even when you play....

You really dunna have to be a great keys player either. That's what arps and sequencers are for...=) Seriously, if you can wrap your head around synthesis, even one-note can become a "living thing" with a few tweaks here and there. Remember, there's no reason you have to limit your thinking to "traditional" jamming, if you can make noise, there's bound to be a place that you can provide background sound, accents, and general weirdness, all good things IMHO...

Peace



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Message 24/79             08-Apr-02  @  06:25 PM   -   RE: Define

damballah

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yeah, jamming electric doesn't need to be like 3 hour takes of "truckin," "hey jude" or "a love supreme." think more drum circle except your djembe has a cutoff knob and a rez knob.



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Message 25/79             08-Apr-02  @  06:46 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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well put. That's one good way to approach it, btu you have to listen way hard, cuz your drums can get out of hand really easily.

Ape



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Message 26/79             08-Apr-02  @  09:07 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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Wow, I just realized how much I've taken my own musical background for granted - I really never suspected that people knew so little about what I've come to know as the foundation of the styles I work in. I'm not saying that to be derragatory - just never realized it before. I've played rock and jazz and big band and show tunes, played with orchestras and solo.. I suppose I never thought of what I'd done but how much I still have left to do  

I'd love a jam session with any one of you cats. It's got nothing to do with ego either - I'm sure I'd learn more in 2 hours jamming with you guys than I have in quite some time.

-Craig



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Message 27/79             08-Apr-02  @  09:07 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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Pongoid - listening.. You hit it right on the head. The key to improv isn't in what you play, it's in what you hear  

-Craig



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Message 28/79             09-Apr-02  @  09:45 AM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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more than half of music is silence.



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Message 29/79             09-Apr-02  @  12:15 PM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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...and silence is the one thing an artist can't create... you can make space for it, but you can't actually manufacture it...

...course, ya know, if you had a mad crazy fast sampler with an infinite frequency range, you should be able to effectively "cancel out" all sound with a sample of itself played back in reverse phase.... that'd be cool. Anytime someone started giving you lip, you could just "tune them out..." =)

Peace



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Message 30/79             09-Apr-02  @  12:43 PM   -   RE: Define

Maarten

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It's funny you mention this as just yesterday on the news they said something about a project with a machine that can cancel sound, prototype is supposed to be done in about a year or three if I remeber correctly. Think I'll have that installed in neighbours' house  

-M-



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Message 31/79             09-Apr-02  @  09:30 PM   -   RE: Define

xoxos

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maud dib!



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Message 32/79             10-Apr-02  @  12:13 AM   -   RE: Define

Defector Z

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I got a pair of headphones from Bose for work that are active sound cancelling devices. I spoke to one of the senior engineers at Bose to see what they had in store, but he said that large room accoustics are nearly impossible to cancel. You're talking about hearing a signal and then reproducing an opposite phase immediately. Very difficult to do. Too many calculations and such. Too bad though - sometimes work gets really loud. The headphones work really well, though, there is a smaller area to work with, so...



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Message 33/79             10-Apr-02  @  01:18 AM   -   RE: Define

influx

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god I sound so goth sometimes.

anyway..me? dont know SHIT about music except what I like, and I have a good ear for fitting sounds together

never even learned the "proper" way to play my bass, but I was in a band for 5 years and that sounded good, too...

thinkin about getting both bass and piano lessons, just to learn the foundations. Would like to read and write music, too

so..edit:

Live involves spontanaeity of some form. audience/performer interaction

NOT just pressing play.

and..the DJ thing...well...99% of em have exactly what theyre gonna play out already set before the show...so...



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Message 34/79             12-Apr-02  @  01:56 AM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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Heheh, Influx, you're to hard on yourself... Ian Anderson (and if ya dunna know who he is, shame on you...) has a daughter who is taking flute lessons in school. She came home and showed him some of her practice instructions from class and he said "I learned I had been playing the flute wrong all along...." So, I really don't think knowing the "right way" to do/play something is always of the highest importance....

That said, having spent a bit of time learning "some" theory, has been helpful. Made it possible for me to work faster in some cases...

But back to the question, I realize there is no single answer to this question, an' I wasn't after that. Just curious about folks opinions as it's something I'm always "moralizing" about. I know for me, what's more important than how "live" it is, is that I enjoy doing it, that I feel good about doing it, and that the crowd has fun, too. IF you can do that and just do it by hitting play, more power to ya.

As for DJing, I've tried, and while it's certainly taught me some things, I simply do not have the same kind of energy when I do a DJ set as when I play live. Methinks I simply like the possibility that everything "could" go to hell at any moment... Keeps me frosty.

Pax



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Message 35/79             12-Apr-02  @  03:10 AM   -   RE: Define

ian anderson

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yeah, you damn well better know who I am Influx or Ill come shove my flute up your arse.



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Message 36/79             12-Apr-02  @  04:49 AM   -   RE: Define

damballah

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darin!



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Message 37/79             12-Apr-02  @  07:43 AM   -   RE: Define

ian

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nope

well shiiiiit. this could get fun mates!



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Message 38/79             12-Apr-02  @  03:34 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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Gene, that used to be my very definition of "live" - if there's a decent chance it could go to hell (and it did for me once), then it's live.. But I don't rest so easy with that definition any more  

-Craig



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Message 39/79             12-Apr-02  @  10:31 PM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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Very true... very true.... Now I really LIKE to push the envelope of everything "could" go to hell, a bit further. Now it's more like, okay, everything IS going to hell, how do i get it back...? awwww fuck it, let's burn....!

Pax



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Message 40/79             12-Apr-02  @  11:40 PM   -   RE: Define

xoxos

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how's the trout farm ian?



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Message 41/79             13-Apr-02  @  12:13 AM   -   RE: Define

ian

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gave up on the trout. more interested in Florida Largemouth Bass!



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Message 42/79             13-Apr-02  @  01:28 AM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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Salmon is the rage now.....



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Message 43/79             13-Apr-02  @  10:39 AM   -   RE: Define

ian

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pink is for pansies.

what am I saying? I play the FLUTE for chrissakes!



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Message 44/79             13-Apr-02  @  10:40 AM   -   RE: Define

...

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and sing about "Kissin Willy"



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Message 45/79             13-Apr-02  @  04:43 PM   -   RE: Define

damballah

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"snot is running down his nose"



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Message 46/79             13-Apr-02  @  08:42 PM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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Meanwhile back in the year one....


Pax



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Message 47/79             29-Apr-02  @  01:57 PM   -   RE: Define

casparproject

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Just pressing play is not live.



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Message 48/79             29-Apr-02  @  04:15 PM   -   RE: Define

damballah

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live: the opposite of "memorex"



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Message 49/79             29-Apr-02  @  06:29 PM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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..or DAT...



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Message 50/79             29-Apr-02  @  06:34 PM   -   RE: Define

Mindspawn

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...which could be the same thing as Memorex...



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Message 51/79             29-Apr-02  @  08:08 PM   -   RE: Define

influx

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but if its apogee then it truly is live



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Message 52/79             09-May-02  @  07:05 PM   -   RE: Define

saturntheory

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I've been touring around for a while lately and I've had this discussion over and over and I still haven't really made up my mind.

It's like the wizard of Oz. If the crowd digs it and you're diggin' it it's all good. But if the crowd knew that you had a DAT machine up your sleeve would they still dig it? I doubt it...

So I say, Don't cheat your audience with a tape or a fully sequenced song. Learn to play your trax off the cuff and respond to the mood of the party. I play with a partner now and we write the trax together, then we PLAY them together and it's never the same twice. It's given us some train wrecks but it's also produced magic.

I think that's what live is... magic. Which I know brings me right back to the wizard of Oz...

hmmmmm!

errata



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Message 53/79             10-May-02  @  12:19 AM   -   RE: Define

TiC

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Well when i play live i divide the sequence into the smalest parts possible then map them out over the keys on my rm1x. Then i can play wichever part of the arangement for as long as i like and in whatever order i like. i can also work with the mute memory to bring stuff in and out as i like and if there is room fore it i put the controller msgs on different parts so i can mute them out to and tweak live. mind u i mostly mix psy-trance this way. i think this is as live as it gets if u r alone on stage with your gear. But i am looking for some one to do gigs with so we could help each other out. But so far no luck. I would really like to jam with elektronik stuff but i dont really know how



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Message 54/79             13-May-02  @  10:33 PM   -   RE: Define

bokonon

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are ppl enjoying it? are you enjoying yourself? does anything else matter?



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Message 55/79             14-May-02  @  10:58 PM   -   RE: Define

proximus

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Is it cool to bring a big pc to the stage?

That's what I have to do if I'm gonna do it *live*.. And then I have to throw around sequences in logic looking like a fool while sometimes tweaking Nova's lovely cutoff knob

I'm going to do som research on this live thing.. I really wanna do it.. starting with reading this enormous tread ;)

Cheers!



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Message 56/79             15-May-02  @  07:39 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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There's a million and 1 ways to do it.. You have to figure out what works best for you.

I've been thinking more and more about using a laptop for sequencing and sampling lately though.. It's so easy to assign hardware controllers to things in Sonar that I'm having a hard time ignoring its potential..

-Craig



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Message 57/79             15-May-02  @  08:52 PM   -   RE: Define

proximus

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That sounds like a good idea.. how much do you have to give for a decent laptop?



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Message 58/79             15-May-02  @  09:53 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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Well, if all you're going to be doing is sequencing and basic audio, I'd say that anything above say, a 500mhz Celeron w/128MB would do. I don't honestly know for sure, because I've never tried Sonar on any other hardware than my home machine (700mhz Athlon w/512MB). Anything that's spec'd well enough to comfortably run Windows 2000 should do the trick.

Mind you I'm thinking no DXi/VSTi, basic mix, sampled parts rendered to audio, etc.. I mean, if you wanted to really do it on the cheap you could probably get away with a Pentium-II class machine running 98SE with 64MB running Cubasis or Cake 9 or Home Studio or something.. You could probably do a bang-up job with Orion on older hardware too. You're probably going to lose some of the realtime tweakability though. Sonar's good with assigning hardware controllers, so's Orion.

I guess it'd depend on what you wanted to get out of it. Me personally I'd like to be able to get everything set in the studio, then just basically load a bundle onto the lapptop - so I'd want the same basic setup, Sonar on Windows XP, or 2000..

-Craig



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Message 59/79             30-May-02  @  12:16 PM   -   RE: Define

Protocol Droid

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I gave up on bringing the pc to shows. First of all, I am vain. No matter how good I might perceive my tracks to be, people still hear "Live PA" and they get curious, and spend the entire show looking at the rig, so I need to be able to deliver in that dept. Back when I was using the MPC (before she got stolen) that was not a prob, but I have played the last few shows with my pc. I get accused of having prerecorded the tracks and simply hitting play on Reason at the party, which is not what I do. Now I am running an a4000, some sound reinforcement, big mixer, oxygen 8, and rm1x. Plenty of blinky lights to keep the retards entertained so that I can focus more on throwing down some ILL, LIVE techno instead of worrying about wtf people are saying. Maybe it's just my weakness that I'm that vain, but I'm not big on that kind of negative word-of-mouth publicity.

Also, realize that PC's like to crash at the worst times, esp. in hot clubs. I have had TOO much experience with this to let Craig do it without fair warning. Craig, I dunno if you have had exp. with the live PC thing before, but be careful bro. I know you are using an rm1x to sequence live right now, and that you want to ditch it for the pc setup. I did the EXACT same thing, and wanted to hit myself for a long time after for doing that. Too many fuckups during parties.

Please excuse my rambling, but Live work is more than half the reason I produce techno, and I gotta give out all the advice I can collect from personal experience.

peace,

- Nick



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Message 60/79             30-May-02  @  02:48 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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Nick, thanks for sharing your experience.. A laptop live is something I'm considering, basically because I'm tired of hauling 2 racks, an RM1X, and a Nord Lead keys to gigs   With the lappy, I could get rid of one of the racks and the RM1X, but I see your point.

Right now I don't trust what I'm doing to a computer live either. Times are changing though...

-Craig



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Message 61/79             30-May-02  @  03:44 PM   -   RE: Define

milan

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people, please dont switch to laptops live just yet! its getting incredibly boring going to a show and watching a guy stand behind a small box the whole evening.

the best live act iŽve seen lately was 3-4 ppl based around a guy with SU700, SP808, and a drumpad, whoŽs giving the rythm and the base (not bass) for all the tracks and playing live percussion over the top via drumpad. add another synth guy, and a live bass player, and you are set. MUCH more interesting than lap top gigging, plus much more space for interaction.

cheers all, M.



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Message 62/79             30-May-02  @  04:07 PM   -   RE: Define

Protocol Droid

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Funny thing. Just recently at the Detroit Electronic Music Festival I saw a guy that was banging it out on a bunch of gear and wearing this tee-shirt that had a stick figure bending over a laptop, and a big red circle with a line through it around the whole thing. I would tend to agree.

- Nick



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Message 63/79             30-May-02  @  04:15 PM   -   RE: Define

Protocol Droid

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Craig,

what the hell you got in two racks? Why not just downsample everything into a sampler with shitloads of ram, and just bring like 2 synths to tweak + rm1x + sound reinforcement. This would be a good solution if most of that rack space is taken up by synths, which it sounds like it might be.

Just a thought. If the only reason you want to switch to lappy is because you are lazy, don't do it. I will drive over to wherever you live and shove the lappy up your ass, then sacrifice you to the Eternal Dark Lord of Front Line Assembly(TM).   In all seriousness, though, I did ALL this shit you are thinking about doing, right down to the same sequencer getting thrown to the wayside because I was tired of carrying stuff. BAD idea.

peace,

- Nick

P.S. - Experience has told me that women juice their panties when pa's have lots of knobs and buttons like that. They see just you + your neato laptop.... you can guess what they think then.



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Message 64/79             30-May-02  @  06:44 PM   -   RE: Define

marianimal

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Haha yeah, that's been my experience too.   I'm glad your experience has been so rewarding, Droid. I have to agree, I'd rather see/use hardware myself, but I think it's tasteful to have a laptop handy for a few things that can be thrown in with a few keystrokes or clicks. As long as no one's hovering obsessively over the damn thing.



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Message 65/79             30-May-02  @  07:06 PM   -   RE: Define

errata

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I somewhat fail to see what you're hovering over if your playing with a laptop. So much is automated! Or not as controllable. Besides, you'll all be cricked over in the back with sore eye's and crippled fingers after a few years of playing a laptop!!!

Long live racks o' gear! Lug it out and make it REAL!!! DJ's do the stand around thing better than we do... if you're going to show up, show the f*ck up... give people a reason to watch.

errata

My partner and I play out with one 8u rack, and 2 ultimate 3 tier stands... that's a sampler, 4 synths 2 RM1x's two 8 point sub mixers and a DJ mixer. It works!!! Nicely too.



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Message 66/79             30-May-02  @  07:40 PM   -   RE: Define

Protocol Droid

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marianimal, I agree that the laptop is handy when you have some practical, behind-the-scenes shit on it. But, all too often I see live pa's using nothing but that, and maybe once in a while they will have a doepfer box to tweak with and a little controller kb.

Ahh well, I'm just trying to save people from the hassle of going that route, because you will NOT be satisfied with it if you are the type that gets off on the visual as well as aural aspect of your performance. It's your world, I'm just gigging in it....

- Nick



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Message 67/79             31-May-02  @  02:18 PM     Edit: 31-May-02  |  08:18 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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Droid: That's all I'm bringing! 10 space rack with Virus, mixer, and Sony DPS-V55. The other rack holds a power conditioner and an S6000 studio. Then I've got the RM1X and Nord Keys. 2 modules, 1 sampler, 1 sequencer, 1 FX box, and a small mixer.

The other option I had in mind was to get the Virus and mixer into a pop-up mixer case, and put the Sony and Akai in one case, but that's gonna weigh a ton   That S6000 is fucking heavy.

-Craig



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Message 68/79             31-May-02  @  10:14 PM   -   RE: Define

influx

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WAY too much thinking and not enough doing.

me.



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Message 69/79             01-Jun-02  @  12:14 AM   -   RE: Define

Protocol Droid

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Craig,

dude, that is so not a lot of stuff. Plus, it's your own damn fault for buying that 50,000 jigaton sampler with the friggin 17" monitor on it and shit (read: I am jealous that you got the S6000   Seriously though, just use the rig you have now. That is a really nice setup, and very portable compared to a lot of pa's.

The Dark Lord commands it. The Dark Lord wills it. The Dark Lord doesn't want to see Craig weeping over his fried laptop with all the malfunctioning software in the middle of a big, possibly career launching show.

- Nick
(a.k.a Master of all things blown out of proportion...)



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Message 70/79             01-Jun-02  @  04:18 AM   -   RE: Define

marianimal

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Yes, exactly, why are they hovering over them watching the software run and ruining their backs but nevertheless I've seen this a number of times. Makes me feel like I'm in a library instead of at a party.



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Message 71/79             03-Jun-02  @  02:18 PM   -   RE: Define

99devils

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I can't tell you how nice it is to have people to bounce ideas like this off of..

I still may need to reorganize and break it down into smaller cases. I might be getting a new car with less trunk space soon and that 10-space monster won't fit anymore  



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Message 72/79             03-Jun-02  @  02:37 PM   -   RE: Define

Maarten

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Last Saturday I saw my first "live" act with laptops... urghhh *puke*, the two guys were standing stiff-still behind these 2 lappy's clicking on the mouse once in a while- I couldn't look... listened to the music but couldn't look t was disgracefull.

carry on



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Message 73/79             03-Jun-02  @  05:15 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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Oh my Ford!, I'm so glad I don't have that Beta's job!

Ape



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Message 74/79             03-Jun-02  @  09:11 PM   -   RE: Define

knowa

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I agree that watching people on laptops is usualy boring but I'm really into a glitchy sound right now (mille plateux, hobby industries) that I associate with laptops, bad posture, and vaguely library-like parties.

I'm saving/selling stuff towards a live-friendly set-up now and I'm curious about laptops.

does anyone know what s/w laptop users like Matmos or Geez'n'Gosh (aka Atom Heart) use? if it's just playback/muting that's corny, but often people talk about how much MORE control and imrov ability thay have since they dissed their mpc for the laptop...



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Message 75/79             03-Jun-02  @  10:05 PM   -   RE: Define

Protocol Droid

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Or you could get an rm1x, which has 8 knobs (x2 functions) = 16 knobs to freely assign to anything. Good luck finding an affordable and stable external soundcard for the laptop. Those things are a pain in the ass to deal with. Just more crap to think about when dragging out a pc to play music live. I hear Ableton Live is pretty sweet, though. Anyone have any exp with it? Doesn't matter, I will continue to just cut loops out of my masters and string them together into a PA. Much easier that way, and I can focus the saved time on other things like creative knob assignments on lfo's and shit.

- Nick

- Nick



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Message 76/79             04-Jun-02  @  05:58 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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Why not rewrite your live set from scratch? Why just recycle? I tried the recycling thing myself, and some liked the fact that they could recognize versions of tracks I had up, but it didn't feel nearly as fresh in playing as the stuff that was written specifically for the gig, and the stuff that was created on the spot, inspired by the moment. Not just little param tweaks, but new synth patches cooked up at the venue just before I played, new sequences programmed during the gig, (yes I went through all my seqs on one gig, while playing with a friend, so we just desync'd, he kept playing, and I programmed a couple sets of seqs and put together a couple sample presets, grabbed some unused synth patches, all of this in about two minutes or less, and just resync'd, restarted the clock, and busted back into the set) all really added up to a fresh, original, unique set. That's what live is. It's not the stuff in the studio. It's on the stage. You get the tools ready, but live should be live. That doesn't mean you shouldn't rehearse your stuff, but damn! If you're gonna say it's live, PLAY your gear, don't just preset it out.

Ape



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Message 77/79             04-Jun-02  @  06:00 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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Laptops are not super conducive, on their own, to heavy amounts of live interaction. Ableton seems like it might be ok, but I haven't used it enough to say for sure. Most of these proggies are not geared for live sets. they are geared for intricate tweaks and pretty screens to keep ou interested in playing on them in the studio. How many folks like working in BUZZ?

Ape



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Message 78/79             04-Jun-02  @  06:54 PM   -   RE: Define

knowa

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almost sure I'll end up with an RS7K nick, just curious to hear a pro-laptop voice. I've made some bad gear decisions in the past and I'm trying to do my homework on this one. I want a h/w version of NI battery b/c I love those loop fx and mapping loop parameters to controllers. can the synth-like Emu's do that?

pongoid--what seq do you use to slip in and out of record mode live? that's "live" by my definition. regardless of the philosphical question, it just doesen't seem fun if you can't add parts live!



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Message 79/79             04-Jun-02  @  10:11 PM   -   RE: Define

Pongoid

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cubase 2.8, or in the last cae, my mmt8, but if you read and I explained correctly, I dropped out, and stopped my clock, recorded, then resync'd and restarted, while my buddy kept playing.


Ape



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