Forums - Live / PA / gigging
Subject: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
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Original Message 1/38 12-Sep-02 @ 07:08 PM - MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
- Yamaha RS7000
- E-mu Proteus 2500
- Roland MC-80
- Akai MPC2000XL
I currently have Logic Audio (PC) running the Virus, Nord, uQ, Machinedrum, and EXS-24.
My live PA configuration would hopefully be a hardware MIDI sequencer driving the synths, and MIDI sync'd to the Machinedrum.
FYI - I've used the RM1x for a few years and while it was OK, I had a big issue with it... when switching patterns ("Styles"), it never switched to the next Style cleanly - there always seemed to be a bit of a delay.
Please comment on my evaluation of these units below.
I checked out the Proteus 2500 and RS7000 at Guitar Center yesterday. The P2500 seemed to switch patterns (i.e. when I initiated the "next pattern" manually) quite cleanly, however, none of the demo sequences were 4/4 and were of different tempos, so I couldn't tell for sure if it was a seamless transition. I believe the P2500 OS on their display model was 1.17.
On the other hand, the display XL-7 had a very noticeable delay/stutter when switching patterns, even when they were of the same tempo. I found this rather disturbing. The XL-7 OS was 1.00, which I have heard was bug-riddled.
Then I tested the RS7000. like the RM1x, it switches from Section to Section flawlessly. But when you switch from Style to Style, there was still a noticeable sonic gap between the two Styles, albeit shorter than the RM1x. Note - I had the quantize pattern setting in Global set to 1 measure.
Now the MC-80. I've never played with an MC-80 and have no clue if it switches from pattern to pattern seamlessly or if it even has the facilities to switch patterns manually. Anyone here have the MC-80? The MC-80 is quite expensive, so it better have some razzle dazzle or I'm going to pass right over it.
And the MPC-2000XL. It has the "Next Sequence" button and everything. It would seem the MPC-2000XL is ready to do switch patterns (and perhaps entire Songs?) live. But I've never been able to try it out... Anyone?
Thanks,
Scott
Message 2/38 12-Sep-02 @ 08:31 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
between styles you will have a gap... but if your midi gear is external you won't have a gap because the sequencer is locked in perfect time regardless... its the internal synth and sampler patch changes that cause the hiccup
jamey
Message 3/38 12-Sep-02 @ 09:16 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
'Mindspawn' described the Sytle-switching delay, but didn't say if he experienced the delay while using it standalone, or while sequencing external gear, too?
I see that 'Maarten' was going to check into the MPC "next sequence" function but never posted his findings. I'd be very curious to know...
Just letting you guys know that I *did* use the Search engine but couldn't find all the answers in previous posts and that's why I'm asking.
Also on the Machinedrum, it has the most kick-ass live sequencer you've never seen before. The only problem, is that its MIDI Machines are rather limiting, making it an extremely minimal solution if used as the 'hub' of a live-sequenced show. FYI, I've got a question into Elektron regarding if they will upgrade the MIDI machines... I'll let you guys konw if/when they get back to me.
Scott
Message 4/38 13-Sep-02 @ 12:02 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Elektron said that the MIDI Machines will never be able to record an external MIDI keyboard due to the Machinedrum's internal hardware architecture. Doh!
That means a bonafide hardware MIDI sequencer is a must-have for me.
bump?
Message 5/38 13-Sep-02 @ 01:12 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 6/38 13-Sep-02 @ 02:35 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
The hardware sequencer doesn't have to be a cadillac, because I've got Logic for creating the MIDI sequences.
- It has to be Stable. Crashes are not acceptable... that's why I've dropped the idea of using a laptop. :-)
- It has to import SMF's or record all 16 channels at once.
- 32 MIDI channels (i.e. 2 MIDI outs) would be nice, but not necessary.
- The flexibility to set it to master or slave status or just use MIDI clock for sync.
- Track mutes are a must.
- Seamless pattern switching is very high on my want list, but not necessary.
- Hands-on tempo controls.
Those are the basics, aye.
Scott
Message 7/38 13-Sep-02 @ 08:36 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Well, due to the above I just might forget so don't hesitate to drop me an e-mail end of next week to remind me : transistor303@hotmail.com
Message 8/38 13-Sep-02 @ 08:38 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 9/38 13-Sep-02 @ 12:45 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Ape
Message 10/38 13-Sep-02 @ 02:48 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
It sounds like you're going to have a very nice studio to turn out tracks. My "studio" setup is currently part of my living room... it's often too tempting to watch TV, play video games, or chill on my couch - unfortunately I don't get alot of good work done on tracks in my current setup. Maybe I need to move too. :-)
Pongoid, do you have MMT-8's? I've never tried an MMT-8, so I'd be curious to know more about it. All I know is 8 MIDI channels.
Thanks,
Scott
Message 11/38 13-Sep-02 @ 06:11 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
The XL7's latest OS is fine, at least for switching betwixt styles. AND it's very affordable right now (699 new). The MC80 has no problems switching styles/sequences. Same for the MPCs.
Pizza
Message 12/38 13-Sep-02 @ 06:25 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
I just read the 'Live Sequencing???' thread from 1998... hehehe... I must be behind the sequencing times ... :-) Hey is trance still in style? :@}
I've got a pretty good idea of what the MMT-8 can do now. Seems to be exactly what I want, except the memory limitations scare me... I like to program smooth volume and controller sweeps, so I'd have to get away from that and program that stuff hard into the synth patches as envelopes or LFOs.
What's interesting is that the modern MIDI sequencers can do bits and pieces of what the MMT-8 did (is it now *20* years ago?)...
The MC-505 can Megamix parts in between patterns.
The XP/MC-80 and Proteus 2500 and XL-7 16 track sequencers, but with multiple MIDI channels on each track...
That means with the Proteus 2500, I could run Track #1 as 16 external MIDI channels on MIDI A, Track #2 as 16 external MIDI channels on MIDI B, and Track #'s 3-16 to the internal Proteus synth engine...
I'm really really anxious to go back to the shop and experiment with the Pattern chaining again, this time I'm going to program some simple 4/4 patterns and switch between them... and not rely on the internal preset patterns as a proof of functionality.
Scott
Message 13/38 13-Sep-02 @ 06:29 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 14/38 13-Sep-02 @ 06:43 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 15/38 13-Sep-02 @ 08:02 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
have a look. theyre VERY cheap
Message 16/38 13-Sep-02 @ 11:09 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 17/38 14-Sep-02 @ 12:18 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Ape
Message 18/38 14-Sep-02 @ 12:18 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
As for the Proteus 2500: I've completed my test of O.S. V1.17. The results were disappointing.
What I did was create two sequences from scratch, both at 140BPM. Both sequences had different patch assignments for internal tracks 1-16A and 1-16B. I started with a basic 4/4 drum beat on channel 1 on each pattern, and switched back and forth with no problems or delays. But then, the real test. I recorded between 8 and 16 MIDI channels worth of MIDI note data in each pattern. Then I tried to switch back and forth between the two patterns. There was a very noticeable gap in between, I'd estimate it at around 100MS or so. Not what I was hoping for, with all of E-mu's "lightning fast processor" marketing. Maybe when the thing gets rollin, but what I need is 0-60, baby.
The bottom-line conclusion is that I can't expect to program full-on MIDI sequences in the Proteus 2500 and jump from one to another, DJ-style. Not going to happen, AFAICS.
Now the tough question. If I didn't use the internal synth engine, and instead had MIDI patch changes programmed for my external syths, would the delay/gap still be present. Several of you have said that it is not on other pieces of gear. But I'm not sure about that... because my Virus and uQ (especially) don't change patches instantaneously when I change patches on the front panel. There's usually a bit of loading delay.
So what I am getting at here.. is that with one sequencer and standard synths, and without clever patch changes pre-programmed or manually initiated, it would seem impossible to do a clean fade from song (Style) to song with the full-on MIDI rig.
What I'm sure I COULD DO with any of these units is MIDI up an RM1x or MMT-8 to an Akai sampler, for example, layout samples across the MIDI note range, and arrange tracks based on the sample layouts. In other words, song #1 would address MIDI notes 0-16, song #2 MIDI notes 1 and 17-32 (overlap for basedrum for example), etc. And simply avoid patch changes and all that.
Actually, I just thought of another way of doing it. The idea is to use 1 channel of Virus and 1 channel of uQ for each song. So Song #1 would address MIDI channel 1 on both synths, Song #2 MIDI channel 2 on both synths, etc. This way, there would be no patch changes to contend with.
Also, what n3 says would work too... use the machinedrum underneath while the main seq switches over. If I use the machinedrum as the master MIDI clock source, then absolutely yes. It's a solid plan also because the machinedrum holds mute assignments and FX settings when switching patterns. That's crucial for keeping the sonic transition smooth, without jumps in sound when I want to jump from pattern to pattern.
*phew*
OK, I'm putting MIDI sequencers out of my mind for now and am gonna enjoy what's left of my friday.
Thanks guys.
Scott
Message 19/38 14-Sep-02 @ 12:19 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Ape
Message 20/38 14-Sep-02 @ 12:26 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
So if you have a 4-measure Bassline 'A' on Track 1 Channel 1, can you change Track 1 Channel 1 to play 4-measure Bassline 'B'?
Does it punch right into the new pattern on the fly, or can you quantize the switch to the end of the pattern or next measure?
The power thingie sounds kinda fickle. Do you have the Black MMT-8's? Have you ever tried an alternate power supply? (does it have a wallwart or internal?)
Thanks,
Scott
Message 21/38 14-Sep-02 @ 12:28 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Scott
synthysyzor@adelphia.net
Message 22/38 14-Sep-02 @ 12:34 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
I don't think one sequencer can really do it. Besides, as you've said. The gear needs time to switch from one "performance" to another.
e
Message 23/38 14-Sep-02 @ 02:03 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 24/38 14-Sep-02 @ 03:06 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
q80 has 32 tracks you can punch in and out. there is no 'switching.'
don't know about switching between songs, never tried it.. i know you can write each song to play through and go to the next tho.
Message 26/38 17-Sep-02 @ 08:38 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
arrhytmic ambient noisey strangeness to use
as segues.
Message 27/38 17-Sep-02 @ 10:54 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
can bang on it and wank the slider.
- sad reasons but fun
Message 28/38 17-Sep-02 @ 11:42 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 29/38 18-Sep-02 @ 07:47 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
To answer your question, you would have to move to the next set of tracks, called a Part, but it is seemless in doing that, and if you have two of mmt8's, then you simply switch parts on one of them, and keep playing the other elements you were playing with the other tracks on the other sequencer. Another option is to write another track right alongside it and punch one in and one out simultaneously, but you'll have to have your human timing pretty tight. it works for me, but if it's sample loops instead of fully programmed lines, you may want to switch [arts instead, as getting that kind of timing on requires EXTREME precision. Nothing impossible, but easier to notice human error.
Ape
Message 30/38 18-Sep-02 @ 04:59 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
-Craig
Message 31/38 18-Sep-02 @ 06:44 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
I do hard trance around 140 to 150 BPM. With arpegiations at that speed you better not be even a 64th or 128th note off in timing... it shows, and even the slightest bit out of time drags the energy down, puts a swing on the beats, you can't hear that it's out of time but you can feel it. And so can they!
e
Message 32/38 18-Sep-02 @ 10:30 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Ape - How many songs you are able to save on your MMT-8's internal memory, and how long are your songs on average? Also, still wondering if you have the grey or black MMT-8's?
Craig - I'd rather not haul around two RM1x's, that's like a coffin case with a couple 1200's. I can't fit a coffin case in my car without some serious interior bruising. :-/
Message 33/38 18-Sep-02 @ 10:43 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
e
Message 34/38 19-Sep-02 @ 01:19 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Message 35/38 19-Sep-02 @ 07:25 AM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
That's the stuff right there. I love my Pelican case. I wish they'd do 19" rack stuff.
Ape
Message 36/38 19-Sep-02 @ 06:34 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
Thanks to Casparproject for that tip
-Craig
Message 37/38 20-Sep-02 @ 08:01 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
They are pressurized as well for altitude! Popular with photographers! We have a large one that houses an RM1X, electribe, Nova and 2 little mixers, all standing on end! Brilliant...
e
Message 38/38 21-Sep-02 @ 11:37 PM - RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA
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