skin: 1 2 3 4 |  Login | Join Dancetech |

dancetech forums

05-Jul-2022

Info-line:   [synths]    [sampler]    [drumbox]    [effects]    [mixers]     [mics]     [monitors]    [pc-h/ware]    [pc-s/ware]    [plugins]    -    [links]    [tips]

Search forums House rules Live chat Login to access your admin About dancetech forums Forum home Start a new topic

Forums   -   Live / PA / gigging

Subject: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA


Viewing all 38 messages  -  View by pages of 10:  1 2 3 4


Original Message 1/38             12-Sep-02  @  07:08 PM   -   MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



I want a hardware MIDI sequencer to perform my material live. My first question is: what is the most reliable choice among these options?

- Yamaha RS7000
- E-mu Proteus 2500
- Roland MC-80
- Akai MPC2000XL

I currently have Logic Audio (PC) running the Virus, Nord, uQ, Machinedrum, and EXS-24.

My live PA configuration would hopefully be a hardware MIDI sequencer driving the synths, and MIDI sync'd to the Machinedrum.

FYI - I've used the RM1x for a few years and while it was OK, I had a big issue with it... when switching patterns ("Styles"), it never switched to the next Style cleanly - there always seemed to be a bit of a delay.

Please comment on my evaluation of these units below.

I checked out the Proteus 2500 and RS7000 at Guitar Center yesterday. The P2500 seemed to switch patterns (i.e. when I initiated the "next pattern" manually) quite cleanly, however, none of the demo sequences were 4/4 and were of different tempos, so I couldn't tell for sure if it was a seamless transition. I believe the P2500 OS on their display model was 1.17.

On the other hand, the display XL-7 had a very noticeable delay/stutter when switching patterns, even when they were of the same tempo. I found this rather disturbing. The XL-7 OS was 1.00, which I have heard was bug-riddled.

Then I tested the RS7000. like the RM1x, it switches from Section to Section flawlessly. But when you switch from Style to Style, there was still a noticeable sonic gap between the two Styles, albeit shorter than the RM1x. Note - I had the quantize pattern setting in Global set to 1 measure.

Now the MC-80. I've never played with an MC-80 and have no clue if it switches from pattern to pattern seamlessly or if it even has the facilities to switch patterns manually. Anyone here have the MC-80? The MC-80 is quite expensive, so it better have some razzle dazzle or I'm going to pass right over it.

And the MPC-2000XL. It has the "Next Sequence" button and everything. It would seem the MPC-2000XL is ready to do switch patterns (and perhaps entire Songs?) live. But I've never been able to try it out... Anyone?


Thanks,

Scott



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 2/38             12-Sep-02  @  08:31 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

formant

Posts: 316

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file



"FYI - I've used the RM1x for a few years and while it was OK, I had a big issue with it... when switching patterns ("Styles"), it never switched to the next Style cleanly - there always seemed to be a bit of a delay. "

between styles you will have a gap... but if your midi gear is external you won't have a gap because the sequencer is locked in perfect time regardless... its the internal synth and sampler patch changes that cause the hiccup

jamey



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 3/38             12-Sep-02  @  09:16 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Thanks jamey. I never tried using the RM1x to trigger external MIDI gear. I used it as a standalone sound source at the time, and clearly experienced the Style-switching delay on the internal synth engine. If possible, a little clarification / confirmation on the the "rs7000 beauty or beast?" thread would be great...

'Mindspawn' described the Sytle-switching delay, but didn't say if he experienced the delay while using it standalone, or while sequencing external gear, too?

I see that 'Maarten' was going to check into the MPC "next sequence" function but never posted his findings. I'd be very curious to know...

Just letting you guys know that I *did* use the Search engine but couldn't find all the answers in previous posts and that's why I'm asking.

Also on the Machinedrum, it has the most kick-ass live sequencer you've never seen before. The only problem, is that its MIDI Machines are rather limiting, making it an extremely minimal solution if used as the 'hub' of a live-sequenced show. FYI, I've got a question into Elektron regarding if they will upgrade the MIDI machines... I'll let you guys konw if/when they get back to me.


Scott



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 4/38             13-Sep-02  @  12:02 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Ouch with a capital "O".

Elektron said that the MIDI Machines will never be able to record an external MIDI keyboard due to the Machinedrum's internal hardware architecture. Doh!

That means a bonafide hardware MIDI sequencer is a must-have for me.

bump?



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 5/38             13-Sep-02  @  01:12 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file



how complicated a sequencer do you need?



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 6/38             13-Sep-02  @  02:35 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Hi influx,

The hardware sequencer doesn't have to be a cadillac, because I've got Logic for creating the MIDI sequences.

- It has to be Stable. Crashes are not acceptable... that's why I've dropped the idea of using a laptop. :-)

- It has to import SMF's or record all 16 channels at once.

- 32 MIDI channels (i.e. 2 MIDI outs) would be nice, but not necessary.

- The flexibility to set it to master or slave status or just use MIDI clock for sync.

- Track mutes are a must.

- Seamless pattern switching is very high on my want list, but not necessary.

- Hands-on tempo controls.


Those are the basics, aye.


Scott



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 7/38             13-Sep-02  @  08:36 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Maarten

Posts: 2082

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Scott, I will check out the next sequence thingy but not before next week... I'm in the middle of new home improvement / move, which means new sound-proofed studio / lots of work etc = (yay!) + new equipment to complete my setup (finally get good monitors + mixer = yay!  

Well, due to the above I just might forget so don't hesitate to drop me an e-mail end of next week to remind me : transistor303@hotmail.com



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 8/38             13-Sep-02  @  08:38 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Maarten

Posts: 2082

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Oh, imo your previous post describes the MPC just fine... but then again : I havn't used much else.



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 9/38             13-Sep-02  @  12:45 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



two mmt8's for a FRACTION of the cost of an MPC.



Ape



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 10/38             13-Sep-02  @  02:48 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Thanks Maarten, i'll send you a reminder next week if i haven't already jumped for something.

It sounds like you're going to have a very nice studio to turn out tracks. My "studio" setup is currently part of my living room... it's often too tempting to watch TV, play video games, or chill on my couch - unfortunately I don't get alot of good work done on tracks in my current setup. Maybe I need to move too. :-)

Pongoid, do you have MMT-8's? I've never tried an MMT-8, so I'd be curious to know more about it. All I know is 8 MIDI channels.


Thanks,

Scott



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 11/38             13-Sep-02  @  06:11 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



MMT8s are solid, and cheap. The RS7k will glitch when changing styles, but I honestly haven't tried just controlling external gear to see if the problem was only on the RS's internal synth/fx engine.... I will do that as soon as the studio 's back up and running (we're moving into a new space....). I do know that with careful programming of your phrases and setting the "voice setup to TG" to "OFF" the RS (or the RM1x for that matter) don't glitch.

The XL7's latest OS is fine, at least for switching betwixt styles. AND it's very affordable right now (699 new). The MC80 has no problems switching styles/sequences. Same for the MPCs.

Pizza



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 12/38             13-Sep-02  @  06:25 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Gotta love the search function.

I just read the 'Live Sequencing???' thread from 1998... hehehe... I must be behind the sequencing times ... :-) Hey is trance still in style? :@}

I've got a pretty good idea of what the MMT-8 can do now. Seems to be exactly what I want, except the memory limitations scare me... I like to program smooth volume and controller sweeps, so I'd have to get away from that and program that stuff hard into the synth patches as envelopes or LFOs.

What's interesting is that the modern MIDI sequencers can do bits and pieces of what the MMT-8 did (is it now *20* years ago?)...

The MC-505 can Megamix parts in between patterns.

The XP/MC-80 and Proteus 2500 and XL-7 16 track sequencers, but with multiple MIDI channels on each track...

That means with the Proteus 2500, I could run Track #1 as 16 external MIDI channels on MIDI A, Track #2 as 16 external MIDI channels on MIDI B, and Track #'s 3-16 to the internal Proteus synth engine...

I'm really really anxious to go back to the shop and experiment with the Pattern chaining again, this time I'm going to program some simple 4/4 patterns and switch between them... and not rely on the internal preset patterns as a proof of functionality.


Scott



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 13/38             13-Sep-02  @  06:29 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



O.S. of the XL-7 and Proteus 2500 is the same, no?



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 14/38             13-Sep-02  @  06:43 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Mindspawn

Posts: 659

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Couldn't say. I do know that OS 1.0 for the XL was buggy. The current OS (which I caannna remember off the top of me head) seems mostly fine. At least as far as switching patterns goes, it seems stable enuff.



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 15/38             13-Sep-02  @  08:02 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

influx

Posts: 7627

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



kawai Q80EXE...huge not capacity, SMF (reads from floppy) 32 tracks, two outputs, etc...

have a look. theyre VERY cheap



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 16/38             13-Sep-02  @  11:09 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

n3

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



You could drop out to a machinedrum interlude while you stop the rm1x and switch styles, tap out a little something on a controller keyboard to make it flow for a few seconds and start it back up right?



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 17/38             14-Sep-02  @  12:18 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



The mmt8 will record and broadcast on multiple midi channels in each track. The only time you run into problems with that is when you change channels on the fly for the track (then all note into gets filtered into the selected midi channel), but it does do it on the fly, and if you're writing stuff all on one channel per track, then switching from a drum map to a synth/noise line or another drum map, or whatever is as easy as the press of three buttons. These boxes are so easy to use. The ONLY gripe I have is that they are super finnicky about power. You MUST have good clean power at whatever gig you are playing, or they will glitch out to hell, and you'll probably have to reload your sequences, which can take up to several minutes, depending on the complexity of material and how you reload(it can save sequences as audio as well as sys-ex). It's an option. Certainly throws pretty solid clock.



Ape



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 18/38             14-Sep-02  @  12:18 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Kawai Q80 - I've seen you guys praise this one in the past threads too. Like the idea of the motifs... very cool. My question on the Q80 is if you can switch patterns / songs in realtime without hitches...

As for the Proteus 2500: I've completed my test of O.S. V1.17. The results were disappointing.

What I did was create two sequences from scratch, both at 140BPM. Both sequences had different patch assignments for internal tracks 1-16A and 1-16B. I started with a basic 4/4 drum beat on channel 1 on each pattern, and switched back and forth with no problems or delays. But then, the real test. I recorded between 8 and 16 MIDI channels worth of MIDI note data in each pattern. Then I tried to switch back and forth between the two patterns. There was a very noticeable gap in between, I'd estimate it at around 100MS or so. Not what I was hoping for, with all of E-mu's "lightning fast processor" marketing. Maybe when the thing gets rollin, but what I need is 0-60, baby.

The bottom-line conclusion is that I can't expect to program full-on MIDI sequences in the Proteus 2500 and jump from one to another, DJ-style. Not going to happen, AFAICS.

Now the tough question. If I didn't use the internal synth engine, and instead had MIDI patch changes programmed for my external syths, would the delay/gap still be present. Several of you have said that it is not on other pieces of gear. But I'm not sure about that... because my Virus and uQ (especially) don't change patches instantaneously when I change patches on the front panel. There's usually a bit of loading delay.

So what I am getting at here.. is that with one sequencer and standard synths, and without clever patch changes pre-programmed or manually initiated, it would seem impossible to do a clean fade from song (Style) to song with the full-on MIDI rig.

What I'm sure I COULD DO with any of these units is MIDI up an RM1x or MMT-8 to an Akai sampler, for example, layout samples across the MIDI note range, and arrange tracks based on the sample layouts. In other words, song #1 would address MIDI notes 0-16, song #2 MIDI notes 1 and 17-32 (overlap for basedrum for example), etc. And simply avoid patch changes and all that.

Actually, I just thought of another way of doing it. The idea is to use 1 channel of Virus and 1 channel of uQ for each song. So Song #1 would address MIDI channel 1 on both synths, Song #2 MIDI channel 2 on both synths, etc. This way, there would be no patch changes to contend with.

Also, what n3 says would work too... use the machinedrum underneath while the main seq switches over. If I use the machinedrum as the master MIDI clock source, then absolutely yes. It's a solid plan also because the machinedrum holds mute assignments and FX settings when switching patterns. That's crucial for keeping the sonic transition smooth, without jumps in sound when I want to jump from pattern to pattern.


*phew*

OK, I'm putting MIDI sequencers out of my mind for now and am gonna enjoy what's left of my friday.


Thanks guys.


Scott



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 19/38             14-Sep-02  @  12:19 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



I know I'm using mine when I play out tonight, for whatever that's worth.


Ape



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 20/38             14-Sep-02  @  12:26 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Ape,

So if you have a 4-measure Bassline 'A' on Track 1 Channel 1, can you change Track 1 Channel 1 to play 4-measure Bassline 'B'?

Does it punch right into the new pattern on the fly, or can you quantize the switch to the end of the pattern or next measure?

The power thingie sounds kinda fickle. Do you have the Black MMT-8's? Have you ever tried an alternate power supply? (does it have a wallwart or internal?)


Thanks,

Scott



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 21/38             14-Sep-02  @  12:28 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



PS - good luck with your show tonight... if you have a webcast, shoot me the URL, i'd love to listen in and here those tweakz ;-)


Scott

synthysyzor@adelphia.net



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 22/38             14-Sep-02  @  12:34 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

errata

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



I have always used 2 sequencers running seperate gear for seamless mixes! it's the only practicle way I've found...

I don't think one sequencer can really do it. Besides, as you've said. The gear needs time to switch from one "performance" to another.

e



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 23/38             14-Sep-02  @  02:03 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

k

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



what you do mate is you utilise a midi channel which has finished playing for the new sound so it has time to switch. but some synths remain on one fixed sound mebbe too., such as some bassline or whatever.



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 24/38             14-Sep-02  @  03:06 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

xoxos

Posts: 6231

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



i reckon.

q80 has 32 tracks you can punch in and out. there is no 'switching.'

don't know about switching between songs, never tried it.. i know you can write each song to play through and go to the next tho.



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 25/38             17-Sep-02  @  05:10 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



bump... so Ape, how did it go?



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 26/38             17-Sep-02  @  08:38 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

d

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



whaddabout having a tape deck with some
arrhytmic ambient noisey strangeness to use
as segues.



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 27/38             17-Sep-02  @  10:54 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

JX3P0

Posts: 28

Link?:  Link

File?:  No file



MPC if you haven't chosen already.Cause you
can bang on it and wank the slider.

sad reasons but fun



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 28/38             17-Sep-02  @  11:42 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



haha jx. sounds like something else i already have one of. LOL



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 29/38             18-Sep-02  @  07:47 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



The show went well, thank you.

To answer your question, you would have to move to the next set of tracks, called a Part, but it is seemless in doing that, and if you have two of mmt8's, then you simply switch parts on one of them, and keep playing the other elements you were playing with the other tracks on the other sequencer. Another option is to write another track right alongside it and punch one in and one out simultaneously, but you'll have to have your human timing pretty tight. it works for me, but if it's sample loops instead of fully programmed lines, you may want to switch [arts instead, as getting that kind of timing on requires EXTREME precision. Nothing impossible, but easier to notice human error.


Ape



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 30/38             18-Sep-02  @  04:59 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

99devils

Posts: 2707

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



RM1X's are only going for $250-$300 or so these days used.. You could have two of them for the price of an MPC.

-Craig



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 31/38             18-Sep-02  @  06:44 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

errata

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



Right on, Craig! That's what I do. With a master clock running them both to the same tempo. RM1x is the way!

I do hard trance around 140 to 150 BPM. With arpegiations at that speed you better not be even a 64th or 128th note off in timing... it shows, and even the slightest bit out of time drags the energy down, puts a swing on the beats, you can't hear that it's out of time but you can feel it. And so can they!

e



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 32/38             18-Sep-02  @  10:30 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



I had a setback in my plans this week, as the machinedrum went bonkers and I have no clue what's wrong with it. I thought this kit was going to be reliable. *sigh* :-/

Ape - How many songs you are able to save on your MMT-8's internal memory, and how long are your songs on average? Also, still wondering if you have the grey or black MMT-8's?

Craig - I'd rather not haul around two RM1x's, that's like a coffin case with a couple 1200's. I can't fit a coffin case in my car without some serious interior bruising. :-/



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 33/38             18-Sep-02  @  10:43 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

errata

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



We use pelican cases for the rm1x's... they're just fat attaches!

e



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 34/38             19-Sep-02  @  01:19 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Scott Digweed

Posts: 6

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



come again e... what's a pelican case? hehe :0)



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 35/38             19-Sep-02  @  07:25 AM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Pongoid

Posts: 2003

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



http://www.pelican.com

That's the stuff right there. I love my Pelican case. I wish they'd do 19" rack stuff.


Ape



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 36/38             19-Sep-02  @  06:34 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

99devils

Posts: 2707

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



Dude, Home Depot has aluminum tool cases for $20 that hold the RM perfectly with just a little bit of padding. They're briefcase sized jobs, and can take a good bit of jogging around.

Thanks to Casparproject for that tip  

-Craig



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 37/38             20-Sep-02  @  08:01 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

errata

Posts:

Link?:  No link

File?:  No file



if i can't rack it it goes in a pelican! (No they aren't paying me)... rock solid molded plastic with foam padding you can pluck out to custom fit!

They are pressurized as well for altitude! Popular with photographers! We have a large one that houses an RM1X, electribe, Nova and 2 little mixers, all standing on end! Brilliant...

e



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Message 38/38             21-Sep-02  @  11:37 PM   -   RE: MIDI Sequencer for Live PA

Meriphew

Posts: 170

Link?: Link

File?:  No file



If you're going to only be using external gear for sounds, then why not just use the Yammie Rm1x? I use one, and have NEVER had any issues with glitches in switching patterns or sounds (like Jamey said, that happens only when using the Rm1x's internal sounds).



[ back to forum ]              [quote]

Viewing all 38 messages  -  View by pages of 10:  1 2 3 4

There are 38 total messages for this topic





Reply to Thread

You need to register/login to use the forum.

Click here  to Signup or Login !

[you'll be brought right back to this point after signing up]



Back to Forum





CCBot/2.0 (https://commoncrawl.org/faq/)